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C.W.M.V.
09-19-2010, 02:29 AM
Finally downloaded IL2 1946 today. Really have missed this game over the last 4 years, but after playing for most of the day Ive come to a few realizations that I forgot:
I can learn to do just about anything in a 109
190's fly as well as bricks (Dora's excluded)
I cant do boom and zoom

Ive been trying all day to get to where I can even keep the 190 airborne through simple maneuvers that the 109 can do all day, Im talking simple stuff like Immelman's, but the 190 seems to be a stall machine, where the 109 is a ballerina. Too bad the 190 is so damn fast, its the only thing it really has over the 109, but if you go to turn the speed bleeds away so fast its crazy!

Anyway I guess if there's tips out there for flying the 190 effectively send them my way. I need to get there so I can finish a Jabo campaign. Id love to fly online but I need to get a basic level of proficiency first.

Also Im sure there have been some patches/downloads for this, what are the basic recommended downloads?
Thanks guys.

C.W.M.V.
09-19-2010, 02:29 AM
Finally downloaded IL2 1946 today. Really have missed this game over the last 4 years, but after playing for most of the day Ive come to a few realizations that I forgot:
I can learn to do just about anything in a 109
190's fly as well as bricks (Dora's excluded)
I cant do boom and zoom

Ive been trying all day to get to where I can even keep the 190 airborne through simple maneuvers that the 109 can do all day, Im talking simple stuff like Immelman's, but the 190 seems to be a stall machine, where the 109 is a ballerina. Too bad the 190 is so damn fast, its the only thing it really has over the 109, but if you go to turn the speed bleeds away so fast its crazy!

Anyway I guess if there's tips out there for flying the 190 effectively send them my way. I need to get there so I can finish a Jabo campaign. Id love to fly online but I need to get a basic level of proficiency first.

Also Im sure there have been some patches/downloads for this, what are the basic recommended downloads?
Thanks guys.

Erkki_M
09-19-2010, 03:34 AM
I like the 190 better. Yeah, its medium and low speed acceleration is crap, so you cant do continued turning, or stallfighting(or, well, you CAN, but its not smart against most advesaries), but its fast and rolls well. 109's main problem to me is that to stay alive it needs to keep its speed up, but if it does that, it's poor roll and high speed elevator authority means its difficult to get a shot. And its not really that fast, either... But with 190, you can "force" the guns solution with the incredible rate of roll and excellent high-speed "instantaneous turn". Those quad-cannons are more likely to put the end to the target's misery quicker, too. Rate of roll also comes handy if you ever happen to get bounced on.

Too bad the 190 doesnt accelerate almost as well as the 109, as it apparently did irl.

EDIT: if you have il2 1946, you will need just 2 updates: 4.08m and 4.09m.

RegRag1977
09-19-2010, 03:50 AM
Hi CWMV and welcome back,

Flying the 190 is not easy but the immelmann should be possible: the thing is to have enough speed and perform it at a very shallow angle. You will notice that by doing this you will gain a good amount of altitude but that you will also, alas, spend a lot of time during which the more maneuvrable enemy will have all the time needed to position in your rear hemisphere. So unless you have a very big speed advantage, i would not recommend this type of maneuver.

The most difficult thing to learn in the 190 is how to change direction quickly enough to get into a neutral or avantageous position (in a 190 = position for a shot OR a high deflection snapshot). Sometimes running away and coming back later, or also team tactics will be the best options...

Remember you need to build and keep separation with the enemy so that it cannot use its tighter turn radius to get into an easy firing position.

In the 190 you will want to go vertical to achieve directional changes, but not for too long as in the immelman maneuver: yo-yo is good if your opponent is not too maneuvrable compared to you, split s is also a winner yet probably more defensive.

I would recommand the wing over or any zoom (shallow at the beginning is the key) maneuver variation which with the superb 190 rate of roll will allow you to change direction very quickly without sacrificing too much potential:

http://www.nasascale.org/maneuvers/wingover.gif

http://ispark.webs.com/hammerhead.gif

PS You are not limited to what is on this pic, you can for instance also enter a 90° diving turn (allows you to regain speed and to change direction) after the apex and then doing it all again.

The idea is to bet on the fact that the "more maneuvrable" enemy will burn all its energy trying to go directly on you, if he's so self confident and if he does, the you'll gain the important energy advantage!

Last thing: jabo is not recommended for air to air combat: you'll need to have altitude/speed advantage to do your job in the beautiful 190.

Hope it will help...

C.W.M.V.
09-19-2010, 04:06 AM
Im sure most prefer the 190. Its faster without a doubt, has heavier armaments (although with a 108 in the nose I feel pretty happy with the 109), and has a wider selection of ordinance. Speed and acceleration is the one thing I have no problem with in the 190-it goes like a bat out of hell, and cruises fast, but ANY maneuver just dumps speed.

Ive heard of guys making snap and high deflection shots with the 190, but every time I try it it just stalls and rolls over, no matter how hard or light I pull on the stick. The only reason I need to fly the 190 well because the Jabo campaign will put me in one sooner or later.
Love the Jabo missions. Air to air is one thing, but moving mud is where its at!

So where/how do I get these patches?

C.W.M.V.
09-19-2010, 04:13 AM
Oh and among other questions, how do you controll the X4's? The wire guided German air to air's?

RegRag1977
09-19-2010, 04:16 AM
You may want to watch this vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpBMsB0qAqo

C.W.M.V.
09-19-2010, 09:31 AM
cool video.
I just tried downloading patch 4.08 from Nuggets guide, but its not working. Is thee somewhee else to get them?

EDIT: Ok, no joy with the 190. I cant even split s. I roll over, pull even slightly and it just stalls and rolls. This thing turns worse than an AR234!

Erkki_M
09-19-2010, 10:34 AM
Easy with the stick! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I did one vid too... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdCtzA0aNto

edit: which stick do you have? Have you tested it, could be some issues with sensors...

Ba5tard5word
09-19-2010, 10:56 AM
Yep 190 sucks at acceleration and turning, bleeds speed badly in turns and climbing, and speed stalls easily--that is where it flips over to the right when you pull back on the stick hard. Basically you have to get used to how to handle the stick when pulling back on it. A lot of important planes stall like that, in fact the Bf-109 is pretty rare in that it doesn't unless you really pull back hard on the stick for a long period. Spitfires, I-16's, Tempests, Corsairs--they all do it to one degree or another.

Just keep flying and eventually you'll get to know how far to take the stick and it will be second nature. Generally your plane will shake a bit and you'll hear a rustling noise when the plane is about to flip, also it will start tugging to the right--that is when you need to start easing back on the stick to avoid the flip.

As for general handling of the Fw-190, it's really best if you're just flying straight ahead at an enemy. It's lethal against bombers because of its great armament, just do one pass and fire when you're close and usually you get a dead bomber. Against fighters, the best thing to do is keep your speed up and try to make a quick attack before they start maneuvering away from you. Often the AI will get lazy and fly straight ahead so if you're flying faster than it you can just fly up behind it, fire and get a kill before it starts doing barrel rolls all over the place.

Turn fighting with the Fw-190 is irritating at first if you're not used to it because its elevators are so sluggish, but eventually you'll get used to it. Again it's better to do single high speed passes, but especially against the AI that isn't going to happen a lot. Usually you can get away with turn fighting against the AI because the AI will be bleeding speed too and if you don't as well you'll overshoot it and fly past him. Just keep turning and eventually they'll level off more, then you can fire and get a quick kill. Just watch out for other enemy fighters that will ride up behind you when you're involved in that turn battle.

C.W.M.V.
09-19-2010, 01:04 PM
I appreciate all the tips guys.

Now can someone walk me through installing these patches? I download them, open the file and it says they are being unzipped/installed but Im still running .07.

K_Freddie
09-19-2010, 01:25 PM
Watch the baby TnB with the best of them..
Ok it is the AI (=stupid), but with online players you just use a different/similar tactic.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Der FW190 (http://www.vanjast.com/IL2Movies/FW_V4_09trks.zip)

edt: Corrected bad link http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

M_Gunz
09-19-2010, 02:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C.W.M.V.:
Ive been trying all day to get to where I can even keep the 190 airborne through simple maneuvers that the 109 can do all day, Im talking simple stuff like Immelman's, but the 190 seems to be a stall machine, where the 109 is a ballerina. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As posted above and +1, Easy on the Stick!

But that is not all. 190 is a different plane, a bit slower to start pitch-up (for turn or other) that if you work the plane will let you pull more G's than you can just light-sticking. It doesn't respond the same but that doesn't mean you can't turn it. At high speed the 190 will out-turn the 109 you know?

Just ease it into the turn, watch for the nose to move and watch your speed. Once the nose begins to move then bring the stick back smoothly -as the nose picks up speed in angular change- and -as your speed does not drop faster than it should-. If you are climbing or diving, which are both good for turns, or flying mostly level then you should know what to expect of your speed and see the beginning of stall as speed bleed.

190 maneuver speeds are higher than 109. You cannot do the same things at the same speeds, at least not for long.

If you are pulling stick diagonal then you are making extra drag. At high speed or in hard turns the penalty is multiplied. Roll then pull on turns and always with 190, P-47, P-51, any like those get the turn established (nose movement) before leaning into it. When you roll it points your lift to the side. Let that work a little and let the nose drop a little, keeping the nose level or high works against you.. especially the nose-high turns, avoid those!

If you can, unload the wings before pitching up. In a zoom climb or any dive at all the plane needs less lift to stay up. That is extra for your maneuver. It is true for every plane but means more for the ones with high wing loading, again the faster you are going the more it matters.

The -single- best thing you can do is to spend time just flying the plane with no enemies or AA or mission. This is true for every plane and doubly true when going from one plane to another. Trying to learn how a plane responds during combat is just asking for it, you can't pay attention to instruments and controls at the same time as watching enemies. How will you learn how much rudder to use when you can't watch the ball? Take your time, find the edges and get to know the plane to where you don't have to look to know when it's right and then go fight in it.

M_Gunz
09-19-2010, 02:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ba5tard5word:
and speed stalls easily--that is where it flips over to the right when you pull back on the stick hard. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is beyond the stall behavior, a departure from controlled flight. It means you were stalled and didn't ease up. How fast it happens is just a matter of how much you overdid the stick and yes, the signs were there before it departed flight.

Why do so many people not know stall from spin?

Ba5tard5word
09-19-2010, 06:06 PM
A pilot told me the flipping over is called a speed stall so I just go by that. I always thought a spin was more when you start spinning like a pancake, usually if you do the speed stall or whatever for very long. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blush.gif

M_Gunz
09-19-2010, 07:16 PM
Accelerated Stall aka High Speed Stall. It's a stall when you're under acceleration, ie more than 1G and then you go from stall to spin faster. How fast is not why it's called an accelerated stall but I bet there are people who think that's why who are also pilots.

Departure from controlled flight -can- end (as in go back to controlled flight) very quickly. Best way is to let go of the stick before the spin develops into one that keeps itself going which can take 2+ revolutions. You really have to screw things up bad to get into a flat spin BTW. If the plane isn't trimmed badly then just let go and it should right itself even if it ends up upside down. Funny how hard letting up on the stick can be when the panic reaction is to pull harder, hey? Gonna pull it through, just need more force is all... whoops!

It's easy to do in a P-51, IRL and IL2. All you have to do is be target fixated and get a bit slow while pulling G's. First time it happened to me in IL2 I remembered accounts of it IRL and thought wow, nice FM!

Add one last note: you can stall without spinning but it takes a lot of rudder control.

Wildnoob
09-19-2010, 08:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erkki_M:
Too bad the 190 doesnt accelerate almost as well as the 109, as it apparently did irl. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If this is truth must be corrected as soon as possible. We already cannot enjoy of the light stick forces advantage because we don't have a stamina bar and therefore this advantage does not exist and the planes with light wing load have advantage because they could have this advantage, but combined with their capability of turning all the time without the pilot suffer consequences turn the things unrealistic. One more advantage denied for the Fw 190 plus the disadvantages of the La and other VVS fighters is too much.

In spite I generally do not dogfight with any plane, I'm already having some good results in dogfights at medium altitude against more nimble planes in the Anton when initial energy situation is favourable. If I had an acceleration comparable to a Bf 109 things would be much improved.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">[Bf 109]speed elevator authority means its difficult to get a shot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, but find a good angle and remember that if you miss, you can (and should) get away to prepare another attack climbing like a rocket. I guess that's why Hartmann loved the 109 so much.

JtD
09-19-2010, 11:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C.W.M.V.:
I appreciate all the tips guys.

Now can someone walk me through installing these patches? I download them, open the file and it says they are being unzipped/installed but Im still running .07. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you sure you put it into the right folder? Patches need to be pointed to the right place.

Erkki_M
09-20-2010, 12:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wildnoob:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erkki_M:
Too bad the 190 doesnt accelerate almost as well as the 109, as it apparently did irl. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If this is truth must be corrected as soon as possible. We already cannot enjoy of the light stick forces advantage because we don't have a stamina bar and therefore this advantage does not exist and the planes with light wing load have advantage because they could have this advantage, but combined with their capability of turning all the time without the pilot suffer consequences turn the things unrealistic. One more advantage denied for the Fw 190 plus the disadvantages of the La and other VVS fighters is too much.

In spite I generally do not dogfight with any plane, I'm already having some good results in dogfights at medium altitude against more nimble planes in the Anton when initial energy situation is favourable. If I had an acceleration comparable to a Bf 109 things would be much improved. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think stick forces are already modelled... It explains why some planes have poor control authorities on axis or another, or all 3, at higher speeds (ie. the 109) and some dont (P-51's elevator). Even Spitfire loses elevator and especially aeleron authority at higher speeds. My favourite Fw is the A-4 because it has the lightest controls of them all - high speeds A-5 to D-9 are all fairly similar, A-4 being easily the most maneuverable of them all at higher speeds - best roll and initial rate of turn. Against certain foes, that are faster than A-5/6 at lower alts, the A-4 is a better choice, better potential to get the shot, and needs to only be 500m higher to achieve same speeds(plot speeds vs. La-5FN, for example).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">[Bf 109]speed elevator authority means its difficult to get a shot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, but find a good angle and remember that if you miss, you can (and should) get away to prepare another attack climbing like a rocket. I guess that's why Hartmann loved the 109 so much. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Against an enemy you surpise, you are more likely to see him first in a 190. You get in quicker, and you have easily more firepower. If picking shots in(or preferably above/near) a furball, the 190 again does better work thanks to rate of roll, instantaneous turn, cockpit visibility and armament. 109's only advantage is (sometimes) having possibility to disengage by climbing, which usually only works in 1 vs. 1 or when you already have the advantage. In 190, with E advantage, you can turn even 3 vs 1 into 3 kills. See my vid above. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Of course I'm biased but what the heck! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

C.W.M.V.
09-20-2010, 01:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JtD:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C.W.M.V.:
I appreciate all the tips guys.

Now can someone walk me through installing these patches? I download them, open the file and it says they are being unzipped/installed but Im still running .07. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you sure you put it into the right folder? Patches need to be pointed to the right place. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, i have no idea where they went. Where are they supposed to go?

So I have kept toying around with the 190A4 and its not too bad. The extra cannon are nice and it has ammo for days. I finally figured out that as long as I have 300kph and 500meters altitude Im good to go. if all else fails I can dive away but these soviet fighters are fast! I was even getting caught by I-16's!
Now Im in an A5. Didn't think there would be so much of a difference. Doesn't turn nearly as well as the A4 it seems.

WTE_Galway
09-20-2010, 02:31 AM
Remember 1946 installs to a different directory to the older versions of the game.

M_Gunz
09-20-2010, 03:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C.W.M.V.:
So I have kept toying around with the 190A4 and its not too bad. The extra cannon are nice and it has ammo for days. I finally figured out that as long as I have 300kph and 500meters altitude Im good to go. if all else fails I can dive away but these soviet fighters are fast! I was even getting caught by I-16's!
Now Im in an A5. Didn't think there would be so much of a difference. Doesn't turn nearly as well as the A4 it seems. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

300 kph is kinda slow for combat in a 190. It's not that good for combat in a 109 either! It is less than 200 mph which is more like 320 kph. Why I say that is that you start to pull a hard turn at 300 kph then you are asking for trouble as at best you will soon be slowed down to where no hard turn is possible. Even in the Macchi's I keep 340 as the minimum. 190's you might let get down to 320-340 going over the top of an arc but try not to get less, the speeds you want to keep up are 400 kph and above where you have energy to maneuver and still speed left over.

If you are doing flat turns then start working with wingovers and yoyos.

Keep your speed up and you can quickly enough zoom beyond the ability of any I-16 to follow, but don't zoom in a bullet-straight line.

Wildnoob
09-20-2010, 09:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erkki_M:I think stick forces are already modelled... It explains why some planes have poor control authorities on axis or another, or all 3, at higher speeds (ie. the 109) and some dont (P-51's elevator). Even Spitfire loses elevator and especially aeleron authority at higher speeds. My favourite Fw is the A-4 because it has the lightest controls of them all - high speeds A-5 to D-9 are all fairly similar, A-4 being easily the most maneuverable of them all at higher speeds - best roll and initial rate of turn. Against certain foes, that are faster than A-5/6 at lower alts, the A-4 is a better choice, better potential to get the shot, and needs to only be 500m higher to achieve same speeds(plot speeds vs. La-5FN, for example). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What I'm refering as stick forces is the pilot get tired of push the controls. In planes like the Fw 190 this was way easier.

Hauptmann Heinz Lange, an ace with 70 victories said:

I first flew the Fw 190 on 8 November 1942 at Vyazama in the Soviet Union. I was absolutely thrilled. I flew every fighter version of it employed on the Eastern Front. Because of its smaller fuselage, visibility was somewhat better out of the Bf 109. I believe the Fw 190 was more manoeuvrable than the Messerschmitt — although the latter could make a tighter horizontal turn, if you master the Fw 190 you could pull a lot of Gs [g force] and do just about as well. In terms of control and feel, the 109 was heavier on the stick.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">109's only advantage is (sometimes) having possibility to disengage by climbing, which usually only works in 1 vs. 1 or when you already have the advantage.

In 190, with E advantage, you can turn even 3 vs 1 into 3 kills. See my vid above. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well Erkki, I wouldn't attack without advantage. Still you can use some tricks like not simple dive on the enemy, but drop and attack him from below. The energy loss in comparison with the 190 can be overcomed by the superior rate of climb if you do this faster. Still make a good avaliation of the enemy to have sure you have more chances of succeed in a sneak attack is fundamental to any plane, especially the 109. Altough I have to agree with you that the 190 is superior.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Of course I'm biased but what the heck! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Imaginate. Just don't understimate what a good 109 pilot can do. Of course that any plane and much more with a good pilot cannot be, but especially the vertical capability of this plane when used correctly can be a real head pain. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

TgD Thunderbolt56
09-20-2010, 10:17 AM
First, you should never try to DF in a 190. If you must, the only real beneficial tactical maneuver is a well executed scissor, and that's only for a couple of turns. At that point if your adversary hasn't overshot or a friendly hasn't dropped in to help, you can only dive. If you're already down low, about all you can do is die.

Second, when in a 190, think ULTRA high speed. If you ever drop below 350kph (and more like 400kph is what I prefer to set as a low end), for anything, it should only be in a wingover after a high speed B&Z.

A 109 is a duelist's tool where a 190 is an assassin's tool. Comparing them is like comparing a fine, match-grade Colt 1911A1 to a silenced baby Glock. Sure, they're both handguns but...

C.W.M.V.
09-20-2010, 10:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TgD Thunderbolt56:
First, you should never try to DF in a 190. If you must, the only real beneficial tactical maneuver is a well executed scissor, and that's only for a couple of turns. At that point if your adversary hasn't overshot or a friendly hasn't dropped in to help, you can only dive. If you're already down low, about all you can do is die.

Second, when in a 190, think ULTRA high speed. If you ever drop below 350kph (and more like 400kph is what I prefer to set as a low end), for anything, it should only be in a wingover after a high speed B&Z.

A 109 is a duelist's tool where a 190 is an assassin's tool. Comparing them is like comparing a fine, match-grade Colt 1911A1 to a silenced baby Glock. Sure, they're both handguns but... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I like this comparison, seems to be very apt.

Wildnoob
09-20-2010, 11:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TgD Thunderbolt56:
First, you should never try to DF in a 190. If you must, the only real beneficial tactical maneuver is a well executed scissor, and that's only for a couple of turns. At that point if your adversary hasn't overshot or a friendly hasn't dropped in to help, you can only dive. If you're already down low, about all you can do is die. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I don't agreed totally. If you have altitude and energy you can dogfight. In the initial turns you can have considerable chances of get a fire solution, and the heavy guns with good convergence make things easier to be decided at start. I also like to make head on encounters, especially with the liquid cooled engine enemies. I open fire at distance first with the inner guns in several directions to try confuse a smart enemy who I know frequently is gonna try foolish me to the vertical. A lot of smart pilots trying to avoid my head on climbing were killed this way because I knew and already antecipate what they were trying to do.

If they don't climb and pass below or from my side I still have a chance to try get them again while have energy.

If the enemy climbs and is holding energy advantage or simple the situation is not favourable to me anymore, then I simple enter in a dive and they can't catch me anymore. And I have a lot of fuel while the light fighters don't. That's the way I fight them with very favourable results.

But usually I don't dogfight as already say. What I'm telling here is that even with some very significant advantages denied by the sim, the Fw 190 can still dogfight if used properly.

BillSwagger
09-20-2010, 12:52 PM
I've always thought the 190 was the more superior energy fighter in the game. Its a tough bird and shells out a hefty amount of fire power.
Its downsides are its low speed turn ability and high altitude performance. Its not a plane you should yank and bank with, and like other energy fighters if you keep your turns fluid and gentle its easy to hold an E advantage.

K_Freddie
09-20-2010, 01:32 PM
You can DF anything in the FW but the trick is not to follow the other a/c line of flight then you'll lose.
Follow the FW's best line of flight, and these differ for high, med and low speeds.

CWMV.. I corrected that bad link I made earlier (same post), so when you've upgraded to IL2-1946 V4.09, you can check those tracks out. It's not 'gospel' but it gives one the general idea.
Err. forgive the bad shooting - I lost the use of my rudder pedals http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

JtD
09-20-2010, 01:52 PM
I don't know how many pilots would stick to the 190 if the 109G-2 had 4x20mm cannons.

thefruitbat
09-20-2010, 02:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JtD:
I don't know how many pilots would stick to the 190 if the 109G-2 had 4x20mm cannons. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

+1

and gunpods don't count, lol.

although, if the stock 190 didn't accelerate like a pregnant wilderbeast, that would make a huge difference.

K_Freddie
09-20-2010, 02:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JtD:
I don't know how many pilots would stick to the 190 if the 109G-2 had 4x20mm cannons. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The G2 probably wouldn't handle the weight and would be worse than the FW to fly. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

C.W.M.V.
09-20-2010, 02:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K_Freddie:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JtD:
I don't know how many pilots would stick to the 190 if the 109G-2 had 4x20mm cannons. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The G2 probably wouldn't handle the weight and would be worse than the FW to fly. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Id be happy with a 108 in the nose of a 109G2 and some more ammo for it. Too bad the 108 has a rainbow like trajectory.

K_Freddie
09-20-2010, 03:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C.W.M.V.:
Too bad the 108 has a rainbow like trajectory. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think you've highlighted a problem, which usually countered by getting in real close.

The FW has the ad that you can spray an area (from a distance) with so much cannon fire, that any a/c flying through it will suffer varying degrees from bad to worse.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Ba5tard5word
09-20-2010, 03:24 PM
Firing with the 190 is like firing a wall of firepower. Firing a 109's stock nose armament is like throwing a dart at a dartboard. With practice you can get much better with firing with a 109, but generally you have to get really close in and be sparing with your firing whereas the 190 really lets you be lazy, which IMO makes up for its maneuverability shortcomings. You don't really need to be able to match an enemy in a turn battle if all you need is one second of on-target gunfire.



And certainly you can dogfight in a 190 against the AI because the AI will do dumb stuff like just flying in wide circles instead of using better turning to avoid the 190. All you have to do is generally follow them and wait until the AI levels out and you line up your sights and fire again. Against a good human opponent it should be harder because they'll know to do dives or sharp hook turns that the 190 can't match. But the AI have magic all-seeing eyes in the back of their head and will start evading you when you're within a certain distance of them even if you're below them and clearly out of their sight lines--at least with humans you can gamble on them not looking behind them and get a sneaky drive-by kill.

K_Freddie
09-20-2010, 03:24 PM
As an example..
My gun focus settings on any a/c is always 150m.
This gives me an effective range of 300m.

At this range the shell spread should probably be about a circle with a diameter of the FW's wingspan. This allows for inaccurate aiming to still be effective.

Some might say that the FW is a spray-n-pray machine, and they prefer the art of sniping.
A good pilot would never let you snipe him, by constant moving around presnting a very difficult target. Here the Fw's spraying ability is most effective, and for the less able pilot, deadly!! - you choose http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

K_Freddie
09-20-2010, 03:32 PM
The usual tactic with a better turning a/c is that as soon as the other a/c is 90 degrees beyond your turn and gaining, 'you move on'.

Although a lot of times this is not necessary, as you then adopt a different DF tactic which tends to throw off your opponent, and when you start making the gains, it's really off-putting http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

This is for 1-vs-1, but when it's even odds above those numbers... the FW usually holds all the cards.

C.W.M.V.
09-20-2010, 03:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K_Freddie:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C.W.M.V.:
Too bad the 108 has a rainbow like trajectory. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think you've highlighted a problem, which usually countered by getting in real close.

The FW has the ad that you can spray an area (from a distance) with so much cannon fire, that any a/c flying through it will suffer varying degrees from bad to worse.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wasnt it Hartman or Galland who said, "dont fire until the enemy fills your windscreen"?

So there are ALOT of people here that have been kind enough to respond that like the 190 better, where are the 109 drivers?

BillSwagger
09-20-2010, 04:17 PM
I actually prefer the 109 of those two planes.
With the exception of the Dora, the 109 is better at altitude and has more speed. Its also better in the vertical (at least it should be).
Seeing as most people fly under 10,000ft anyway, the likelihood of noticing performance issues between the two planes is nill, but up higher when fighting 'stangs or '47s you need a 109 or 190D.
I think the 109G-6AS with a nose cannon is the best configuration for fighting up high, although the K-c3 is probably the best in an unrealistic sort of way. If you want to spoil your 109 prowess use the K-C3, i think it even out does the Dora for speed.
Also, is it me, or is acceleration a bit low for a lot of other types?


Bill

Ba5tard5word
09-20-2010, 05:21 PM
I love the Bf-109E, it's probably my favorite plane for 1940/1941 scenarios. It outpaces pretty much all of its contemporary opponents and I prefer its armament compared with later 109 versions. It has 1000 rounds of .30 cal MG's. They are kind of peashooters but there's so much ammo that you can get several kills in a mission. Then it has 60 rounds of wing cannon ammo but if you're really careful and only fire when you're certain of hits, it's pretty effective since there are two of them. The F models have only 500 rounds of .30 cal ammo and only one cannon though more ammo. Once you get to G models, it seems like the 109 kind of lost its advantage to enemy planes, as Russian and British and American planes started getting a lot faster and having better armament. The 109 competes with a lot of them but by 1944 it starts getting outplayed while the 190 A and D do a better job of keeping up in terms of speed.

C.W.M.V.
09-20-2010, 05:54 PM
Ok one more question guys, how do you guide the X4's? I know they were wire guided, is there a way to link it to something like shift+hat switch?

berg417448
09-20-2010, 08:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C.W.M.V.:
Ok one more question guys, how do you guide the X4's? I know they were wire guided, is there a way to link it to something like shift+hat switch? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Copied from the Aircraft Guide:

The X-4 air-to-air rocket is wire guided. All rocket-carrying aircraft have a single rocket control module, and as such can guide only one rocket at a time. When launching multiple rockets simultaneously, only the last rocket fired can be guided.

• To guide the rocket, use the “Increase Sight Attitude”, “Decrease Sight Attitude”, “Adjust Sight Control to Right” and “Adjust Sight Control to Left” keys. We recommend assigning them to the Up, Down, Right, and Left arrow keys correspondingly.

• The easiest way to guide the rocket to target is to fire from the target’s six-o-clock level while flying on the same course. Guide the rocket to keep the lights on top of the target with no visible lateral movement until the moment of impact. Use gentle taps to provide last-minute guidance. The rockets detonate remotely, so no direct impact is required.

• This method should be used to attack non-maneuvering heavy bombers from 3,000 to 3,500 meters away.

• NOTE: The guiding wire is not visually modeled.

C.W.M.V.
09-20-2010, 09:17 PM
Whats this Aircraft Guide?
Thanks for the info man.

berg417448
09-20-2010, 09:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C.W.M.V.:
Whats this Aircraft Guide?
Thanks for the info man. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It should be in your Game Folder. Look for a PDF file by that name.

Erkki_M
09-21-2010, 12:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C.W.M.V.:

Wasnt it Hartman or Galland who said, "dont fire until the enemy fills your windscreen"?

So there are ALOT of people here that have been kind enough to respond that like the 190 better, where are the 109 drivers? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hartmann. And yes, the problem with 109 is that the 190, even with its horrible acceleration and bad climb, is so much better. The 109 only does better 1 vs. 1 fights - and these the 190 can either avoid or make quick work of the enemy.

Speed - check, except K-4 and G-10 at very high altitudes.
Roll - check, easily superior at all speeds.
Armament - check, depending on models, 2 to 4 times better.
Cockpit visibility - check.
Air conditioning and cockpit heating? Check! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

About maneuverability. Imagine 109 and 190 flying side by side at near-full level speeds, say, 520kmph of IAS. To almost any given direction in the space(including vertical), the 190 will be able to maneuver and point its nose first. The thing is, you dont _need_ low speed rate and radius of turn, acceleration or climb, when you have the ability to in almost any situation prevent the bandit's shot and stay alive, and when yourself at advantage, ability to gain firing solution quicker, retaining more E(speed and alt) and having 2-4 times more firepower. 190 also has better cockpit visibility, making it easier to keep your situational awareness up, in order to avoid being bounced on and those close-in fights you dont want to be in the 190, and actually, not really in the 109 or any other fighter. The Rapier, Longsword and Halbendier do well against different opponents in different situations, and a Musket makes a horrible close-combat weapon, but properly used, its the best of them all in a war where one wants to kill the enemy and survive, not fight him. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Gaston444
09-22-2010, 11:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C.W.M.V.:
Finally downloaded IL2 1946 today. Really have missed this game over the last 4 years, but after playing for most of the day Ive come to a few realizations that I forgot:
I can learn to do just about anything in a 109
190's fly as well as bricks (Dora's excluded)
I cant do boom and zoom

Ive been trying all day to get to where I can even keep the 190 airborne through simple maneuvers that the 109 can do all day, Im talking simple stuff like Immelman's, but the 190 seems to be a stall machine, where the 109 is a ballerina. Too bad the 190 is so damn fast, its the only thing it really has over the 109, but if you go to turn the speed bleeds away so fast its crazy!

Anyway I guess if there's tips out there for flying the 190 effectively send them my way. I need to get there so I can finish a Jabo campaign. Id love to fly online but I need to get a basic level of proficiency first.

Also Im sure there have been some patches/downloads for this, what are the basic recommended downloads?
Thanks guys. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


"Dora's excluded"!?!?!?! (really?!?!?)

"but if you go to turn the speed bleeds away so fast its crazy"!?!?!?!?!?!

"I can do anything in a 109"!?!?!?!?

I didn't quite realize the game was so badly off! Thanks for warning me! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Gaston