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Recon_609IAP
01-03-2004, 09:52 AM
Can someone please explain this to me?

Is it because some lack the skills in FB to ID aircraft properly?

Or do they need to know that if there is no icon then it is an enemy?

This is silly - why have it one way? Certainly can't be for visibility can it?

S!
609IAP_Recon

http://www.leeboats.com/609/sig/609_recon3.jpg
Agnus Dei, Qui Tollis peccata mundi, Miserere nobis. Dona nobis pacem

Recon_609IAP
01-03-2004, 09:52 AM
Can someone please explain this to me?

Is it because some lack the skills in FB to ID aircraft properly?

Or do they need to know that if there is no icon then it is an enemy?

This is silly - why have it one way? Certainly can't be for visibility can it?

S!
609IAP_Recon

http://www.leeboats.com/609/sig/609_recon3.jpg
Agnus Dei, Qui Tollis peccata mundi, Miserere nobis. Dona nobis pacem

Recon_609IAP
01-03-2004, 09:54 AM
Let me add, if the point of icons is for visibility, why would you not turn it on for both sides?

S!
609IAP_Recon

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Agnus Dei, Qui Tollis peccata mundi, Miserere nobis. Dona nobis pacem

noshens
01-03-2004, 09:55 AM
I don't know what was the intention for putting them, but they do help me out in indentifying friend/foe: Icon=friend no icon=foe. And having no icons for foe doesn't give you the unrealistic knowledge of distance. Thats how I reason this, at least.

x__CRASH__x
01-03-2004, 10:04 AM
Two reasons I can think of.

#1, the server you may be flying in allows mixed aircraft. If it does, then visually IDing an aircraft is alomost pointless. And by the time I see a country marking, assuming they are using one, I've usually run into them! LOL

#2, a way to account for players who have less than wonderful graphics. Many planes look like boxes with wings until you get close to them if you play around 800x600. So maybe some servers want to allow everyone to participate with challenging settings regardless of system.

Recon, it's funny you brought this up, because I have a poll up at Ghost Skies asking players if they want to include a 3rd icon option. So far I've heard nothing but "YES" to adding a custom icon option.

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/crash2.gif (http://www.ghostskies.com/)

BM357_Raven
01-03-2004, 10:06 AM
I know why..

It's basically the lesser of two evils. If you host a game with no icons, you will always find people who join the game and create confusion by wearing the wrong markings (even if posted in the description)or others who are clueless and simply shoot at anything that moves...in effect enraging everyone else.

So, I think, in an attempt to keep things socially peaceful some hosts set the game up so that anyone who pops in can differentiate between the enemy and his own guys.

That being said, we risk it, because we prefer 'full switch' so everything is turned off (or on, howeer that goes?). Of course this presents a problem for people who like certain features like P/L and speedbar, so periodically we do limited icons, or P/L or speedbar just to get a little more traffic on our Blazing_Magnums server.. Was that a plug?

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x__CRASH__x
01-03-2004, 10:12 AM
Yes, and a very effective plug! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

DOn't hate me because I use Padlock. :P

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/crash2.gif (http://www.ghostskies.com/)

F19_Ob
01-03-2004, 10:26 AM
generally most have too small screens to be able to identify planes like in real life.
it is possible to set the distance where the icons will become visible.

GreaterGreen have this setting with only friendly icons visible at a certain distance only. this way u dont have to investigate and reinvestigate every close dot over and over again just to se if it is a friendly or not at a distance u could identify it in real life .

If U want to make a small comparison test u can watch cars at these distances and see if u can se what car it is,
if u can , it should be accurate in fb.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

BM357_Raven
01-03-2004, 10:39 AM
no hatred here... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

you guys like the new term I coined? "Full Switch" attempts to end the argument over what is more realistic and just focus on settings.. If anyone wants to use it, I will accept their donations now. Please, large bills only.

ok, jk, it's free..but for a limited time only.

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[This message was edited by BM357_Raven on Sat January 03 2004 at 09:54 AM.]

x__CRASH__x
01-03-2004, 10:52 AM
I like "Full Difficulty" which is what I coined. But I am somewhat biased, wouldn't you say?

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/crash2.gif (http://www.ghostskies.com/)

BM357_Raven
01-03-2004, 11:02 AM
"Full Difficulty" sounds a lot like "way too hard for me." lol..but, I think what you really mean to say is "Full Dull" lol...right? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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x__CRASH__x
01-03-2004, 11:25 AM
Full Pain In My A$$ is more like it! LOL

I enjoy them all. It's weird, you can see me in server like greatergreen (which uses no enemy, and very limited friendly icons) And then I'm in Slammin, using no cockpit, externals, and all that jazz!

Problem is: I stink at it all! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/crash2.gif (http://www.ghostskies.com/)

BM357_Raven
01-03-2004, 11:31 AM
No you dont...i just think your choice of plane has too small a cockpit for you to fit comfortably in. How can you turn and look around inside your cockpit with that plane sticking out of your head?

Perhaps "No Canopy" would do the trick.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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LeadSpitter_
01-03-2004, 11:39 AM
Short friendly icons for Comms Communication and no enemy icons so they can use all real tactics to avoid being seen.

http://www.geocities.com/leadspittersig/LSIG.txt
VIEW MY PAINTSCHEMES HERE (http://www.il2skins.com/?planeidfilter=all&planefamilyfilter=all&screenshotfilter=allskins&countryidfilter=all&authoridfilter=%3ALeadspitter%3A&historicalidfilter=all&Submit=+++Apply+filters++&action=list&ts=1072257400)

[This message was edited by LeadSpitter_ on Sat January 03 2004 at 11:48 AM.]

adlabs6
01-03-2004, 11:54 AM
While I am not a fan of enemy icons only, it does have its place given the nature of typical DF's. Online DF servers usually have zero grounding in quality teamwork, and the very loose form of "wingman" that exists is greatly benefitted by the friendly icons.

I mean, if a flight takes off, forms up, and follows the lead of the flighleader, you'll not have major problems knowing who is (or should be)where.

In reality, most of the time, you come onto others who are in trouble in quite a willy-nilly way. You have no chance to know who to address in a warning or assistance message. And there in is the friendly icons only use.

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RayBanJockey
01-03-2004, 12:02 PM
The point of friendly-icons-only is to pretend that you aren't using icons, but really are. It's quite a silly setting. Besides the fact that then you have planes that aren't represented equally (mosquitos amoung fireflies effect), if padlock is on then it will mean instant-ID anyway (thus trying to be all secretive by not giving the enemies icons doesn't even matter)

If you are going to give planes icons, then give the same icons for all.

Since you are playing on a computer with a 2D monitor, the best icons are range-only in darker colors. Then the icons are small and dark and tell you what stereo vision should have.

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SKY_BOSS
01-03-2004, 12:18 PM
Icons off is a whole new ballgame to a lot of folks. It's very ez to look for big icon glowing on your screen knowing if he has a wingman near. Not worring about losing the bandit cause he has icon bigger then his plane hanging over him. Turn the icons off and hay you have to use a little more skill and be a little more careful. It is a sweet find when you find a room with all icons off. Main thing is to enjoy the sim and have fun. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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georgeo76
01-03-2004, 12:36 PM
The friendly icons setting is a compromise. It allows easy ID of friendly AC while still making it easier for stealthy tactics against enemy AC. Personally, I'd prefer no icons, or as RBJ said, gray range icons for all (I find it difficult to spot AC even @ ranges where they should stick out like a sore thumb.) But the friendly icons settings tends to draw the biggest crowds as it appeals to both the icons off and icons on crowd

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F19_Ob
01-03-2004, 12:50 PM
Again I repeat what i said in my earlier post and add:

If u look at the friendly icon setting on greater green u notice that icons dsnt appear before the friendly plane is quite close and ofcourse the enemies have no icons at all so icons in no way help spotting planes.

thnx

JG14_Josf
01-03-2004, 12:52 PM
I don't know the reasoning behind friendly only icons.

It is much easier to fly team tactics with friendly only icons. It is so much easier that when returning to a server that does not have friendly icons the need to call headings and altitudes, to make your wingman waggle his wings or turn a particular direction becomes necessary more often.

It is also much easier to identify who to shoot and who not to shoot.

On the Greatergreen server the icon distance is limited and the need to identify friend from foe still exists. Watching tracer color or paying attention to dot sizes and shapes is still a useful skill development, however if one moves from the Greatergreen server to the Virtualpilots server where there are no icons there is a definite increase in the need to identify plane shapes, colors, and markings in an effort to avoid shooting friends.

My guess is that friendly only icons are used to decrease the incidence of friendly fire yet still require a level of target acquisition and tracking skill development for enemies.

LW_Cobra
01-03-2004, 12:57 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by RayBanJockey:
If you are going to give planes icons, then give the same icons for all.

You've totally missed the point of having only friendly icons on. At least with no enemy icons you have no spatial relation to the aircraft ahead which affects distance for a lead shot and if he does some wild manuver (like u with trim on a slide or stick or whatever the hell that was) it is posible to lose sight of the enemy without this big icon shouting HEY, I'm down here now!!!!

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faustnik
01-03-2004, 01:31 PM
Friendly icons helps in squad COOPs for formation flying and wingman ID.

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/FaustSig

Slammin_
01-03-2004, 01:55 PM
I leave the friendly icons at their default and then set this for FOE:
mp_dotrange FOE TYPE 1
mp_dotrange FOE RANGE 6
mp_dotrange FOE ID 1
mp_dotrange FOE NAME 1

I used to set FOE RANGE to 1 also, but I found it to be a pain in the butt because of all the eye strain, and as one person already said, ID'ing the same planes over and over because of our 2D limitations is a pain too. Also, I make no attempt to run a real life server, but make every attempt to create a fast action, someones always on your six type of server, and the above settings seem to be a nice compromise between keeping some of the unkowns (who is he, what is he) while at the same time giving you the early opportunity to go and fine out for yourself :-)

By the time you can positively ID the enemy, you either HAVE to engage, or <cough> run.

I guess the term Full Difficulty is definitely a lot more appropiate that Full Real because it really is difficult to tell if that is a bogey, or a crumb on my monitor screen, with icons turned off.

rummyrum
01-03-2004, 01:57 PM
Ray is absolutly correct. You are fooling yourself into thinking that you arent using the icons to ID both sides. It usually goes like this:

Dot spotted off in the distance, you think friend or foe...hmm lets go see. Getting closer, closer, closer (he could have been visually id here but you are waiting for that icon to pop on telling you he is friend), closer still, then bam there is the icon (sigh).

It could have gone the other way and you would have used the lack of that icon at the right distance to id a plane that can usually be id from its profile much earlier.

If icons are used to id planes then they should be darker colors and show just plane type. If they are to be used to represent radio (even though radio silence was very important and the chaotic chatter of battle was more of a hinderence than an aid)then they should just show a name.

To me the best way is no icons and stomach through the learning curve of identiying planes by their profiles (hmm just like real pilots do). It really isnt as hard as most think it just takes a bit of time.

My squad has flown this way since the beging in our coops, wars, etc. We manage to keep up with on another and fly together. Again it is just a matter of getting use to it.

In the end if its your server or game, use what you like.

Stanger_78th
01-03-2004, 02:09 PM
faustnik you are right and I agree. I like friendly icons for id wingman and prefer only seeing name id. Most dogfights and coops are done lone wolfing so this id system wont seemed logical for those who lonewolf. But there are some out there that like to fly in pairs and a icon for friendly make it more enjoyable for some. So the ones that lonewolf wont see this logic.

Recon_609IAP
01-03-2004, 02:33 PM
Well, as far as no icons for enemy- I think that is silly.

Let's face it - people use the game to hide when in real life they would easily been seen.

To simply limit to friendly is silly - either turn them on for both sides or leave it off.

Good hosts will have it on for both, with limited range, aka visible range of 3.0km. - using no color. If checkins aircraft is a big deal, then add the aircraft at around 1.0km - (outside of respectable firing range)

In this game, I can see better from 5+km away than from 3km in.

At 3km the icons fade at around 2.5, 2.8ish.

My point: if your going to use icons then turn it on for both sides if the issue is visibility. Why would someone see a friendly easier than an enemy in a ww2 aircraft? Makes absolutely no sense.

Remember, we have stories of enemy joining friendly formations in confusion, and friendlies confusing friendlies for enemies in real life.

But, at least be consistent - it's odd to see only friendlies flying around with icons - and them all chasing some speck around - LOL

S!
609IAP_Recon

http://www.leeboats.com/609/sig/609_recon3.jpg
Agnus Dei, Qui Tollis peccata mundi, Miserere nobis. Dona nobis pacem

Recon_609IAP
01-03-2004, 02:40 PM
Cobra - I think you missed the point.

People use bad resolutions and bad LOD to hide in places they would never hide in real life.

And if you want real photos, I got a ton.

Certainly, outside of around 3km or so, you can blend in - but no from 3km in.

In this game there is a bad visibility once you switch from the white pixel to the dark 7 or so pixels.

In real life- the aircraft get larger when closer and easier to see. In this game, you can see better from farther than from close in!!! that is ridiculous.

So - the point was - why would you see some friendly at 3km with icons on and not enemy?

Again, people use the bad resolutions to hide acting as if that is camo - LOL, if it was camo, I wouldn't see you from 7km away would I ???

Again, either be consistent with both on - or turn em off.

S!
609IAP_Recon

http://www.leeboats.com/609/sig/609_recon3.jpg
Agnus Dei, Qui Tollis peccata mundi, Miserere nobis. Dona nobis pacem

x__CRASH__x
01-03-2004, 03:16 PM
Let me make sure I understand, you think both enemy and friendly should be set to the same custom?

I'm 4k away from a plane. He is a dot. At 2k I can see a black icon that says P-39. At 1k the color becomes apparant.

What do you think of that scenario?

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/crash2.gif (http://www.ghostskies.com/)

JG14_Josf
01-03-2004, 03:19 PM
Some of us, or at least in my case, the game offers a realistic requirement to actively focus vision for distance in the application of changes in viewing angle.


FBview (http://oldsite.simhq.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=98;t=006235)


This:

"1) every pilot learns to "see correctly" and
2) learns to look into the airspace at different distances, and doesn't look "through" targets, but can place them on certain levels or distances. The pilot will acquire the necessary skills for this by learning first to fly correctly in a formation."

Frome here:
Tactics Lecture (http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/WW2History-CaptainWindsAirCombatTacticsLecture.html)

Viewing angle changes illuminate difficult to see targets:

http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/Dark%20background.jpg

http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/Light%20background.jpg

x__CRASH__x
01-03-2004, 04:25 PM
Good pics!

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/crash2.gif (http://www.ghostskies.com/)

Slammin_
01-03-2004, 05:07 PM
Great pics, but those planes are not even moving and I still have a hard time seeing them!

I guess this is another 'to each his own' subject, but I realy do not enjoy having to smash my face up to the screen to try in vain to make out what that dot is.

WUAF_Badsight
01-03-2004, 06:09 PM
Recon the point of freindly icons is to limit freindly kills

i limit icon to 2 km

with freindly icon you STILL have to spot yourself a Bandit

& No icon for the enemy is wanted by many many players who dont like icons but will put up with freindly ones being there

i set freindly icons (ID only @ 2Km) when i host all plane rooms (all planes @ all bases)

i think that the RANGE Icon is a cheat ..... its very helpfull to winning a DF & i set it off

WUAF_Badsight
01-03-2004, 06:13 PM
RummyRum many planes look the same in FB

identify planes is easier & harder at different resolutions & with different graphi set-ups

you can ID freind from foe quicker with a icon there

xTHRUDx
01-03-2004, 07:31 PM
i see friendy icons only, as a way to make up for the communictaion that would normaly be occuring between friendly pilots on the radio.

JG14_Josf
01-03-2004, 09:19 PM
Slammin_,

Rgr, to each their own.

For whatever it is worth the moving objects are easier to see than ones that are not moving relative to the backround.
For instance it is harder to see a plane zooming up and not moving relative to the ground. Planes like the ones shown in the pictures posted earlier in this topic were easy to spot on my system as long as I selected the right view angle.
I am running a 19" monitor with almost everything turned on, at 1280/960 resolution.


Much of the fun for some of us is in the looking for targets and setting them up for a high survivability percentage shot. Having no icons makes the job difficult and requires the development of certain skills not unlike the ones found in historical references.

For example:

The War Diary of Helmut Lipfert

by
Helmut Lipfert/Werner Girbig

ISBN0-88740-446-4
Chapter IV On the Black Sea

page 78

"With time my eyes began to hurt, as the constant and strenuous searching for the enemy soon had a negative effect on the optic nerve. I frequently had to look over at Mohr's aircraft so that my eyes could focus on another range."

The work that causes strain on the eyes in reality is replaced by the work required to select a different view angle in the game. I suffer no eye strain while playing IL2/FB. If an object is difficult to see or seems to dissappear do to changes in relative possition or backround I either zoom in or out and usually, but not always, am able to reaquire the target.

Recon_609IAP
01-03-2004, 09:35 PM
True above, however, I think the learning curve for id'ing aircraft isn't that much.

I mean, how long does it take for someone to recognize a 109? It's not like the Germans have that many aircraft http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif And Oleg made it look large, although in real life it's a very small aircraft. hehe

But, Josf, this is really not a full real conversation, as I know you are totally full real - and I respect that.

My issue has been, there is no reason why someone must have 'x' amount of views to toggle through to pick up an aircraft on a monitor, it's ridiculous. Look at your screenshots - there is no way in h3ll that it is close to representing real life!!!

Since when do our eyes have to toggle to 4 modes of viewing to see something?

Let's face it, we are dealing with a 32:1 ratio to real life in FB. 32:1 On a 17-21" monitor.

I asked Oleg what he could do to make aircraft more visible:

"Oleg,

Can it be possible to increase the visibility of aircraft in short to medium range distances?

ie. 3-5km

Aircraft seem to disapear when further from 5km I see then with no trouble.

The aircraft blend in so much - normally in real life, they blend in - but it is easy to see a moving aicraft. In FB, it does not seem to matter - also - no glint on the windshields, etc...

Not sure how BoB will deal with this.

Thank you

Recon"


His response:

"Its impossible to correct.
Fist of all due to fact of Monitor resolution.
Second - we can't change the technology of LODs currently."

He knows it - we all know it - those screenshots tell the whole story.

Personally - I think icons are ugly in this game - it's too bad they can't come up with a better way - however, this is what we have - at least we have a chance to modify them.

So, to use greater green as an example: all those experienced pilots in there need icons to ID? Or is it to see better? And if to see better, why is it only friendlies - I'm more worried about seeing a bandit than a friendly - LOL.

I suspect because people want to hide artificially - although with sonar sound we hear them a mile away anyway - lol

S!
609IAP_Recon

http://www.leeboats.com/609/sig/609_recon3.jpg
Agnus Dei, Qui Tollis peccata mundi, Miserere nobis. Dona nobis pacem

jazman777
01-03-2004, 09:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Recon_609IAP:
Can someone please explain this to me?

Is it because some lack the skills in FB to ID aircraft properly?

Or do they need to know that if there is no icon then it is an enemy?

This is silly - why have it one way? Certainly can't be for visibility can it?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Here we go again... You know this will degenerate into the standard icon arguments. Even if Oleg gave us full customizability with icons some would posture and preen about the whole thing. This horse has been beaten way beyond all recognition. But, raise the whip, give 'er another go!

Recon_609IAP
01-03-2004, 09:39 PM
I don't want to be like someone who is quoted as saying:

"With time my eyes began to hurt, as the constant and strenuous searching for the enemy soon had a negative effect on the optic nerve. I frequently had to look over at Mohr's aircraft so that my eyes could focus on another range."

Imagine if that poor guy was doing it on a 17" monitor at 1024x768 on a 32:1 ratio - poor guy would really be hurting!

S!
609IAP_Recon

http://www.leeboats.com/609/sig/609_recon3.jpg
Agnus Dei, Qui Tollis peccata mundi, Miserere nobis. Dona nobis pacem

Recon_609IAP
01-03-2004, 09:42 PM
I'm not arguing icons Jazman at all.

I'm simply asking for why it's just friendly icons.

This isn't about whether icons should be used or not - it's asking about how they are used when they are used http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

S!
609IAP_Recon

http://www.leeboats.com/609/sig/609_recon3.jpg
Agnus Dei, Qui Tollis peccata mundi, Miserere nobis. Dona nobis pacem

TX-Zen
01-03-2004, 09:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Recon_609IAP:
I suspect because people want to hide artificially - although with sonar sound we hear them a mile away anyway - lol

S!
609IAP_Recon
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good post Recon, this last statement brings up something about the whole no icons debate that has always bothered me.

People DO use no icons to hide...they hide in the grass, down on the deck.

It's easier to look up and see a black dot against a blue sky than it is to look down and see a black/grey dot against a dark background. This gives an advantage to flying down low.

The funny thing in real life, altitude was the most important advantage that a pilot could get but in no icon servers the opposite is true.

That doesn't sound realistic to me at all.


Still, it's game and as someone mentioned already, 'to each his own'. If people think that flying down low to get an advantage is more real than flying high for altitude as real pilots did, I'm not going to argue http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

S~~

TX-Zen
Black 6
TX-Squadron CO
http://www.txsquadron.com
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WUAF_Badsight
01-03-2004, 10:11 PM
Recon what do you mean by trying to hide ?

isnt that what players do a Lot in cockpit locked servers anyway ?

i see the point of Freindly icons as being :

1) still having to find yourself a Bandit / dot

2) cutting back on chasing a Freindly / shooting a freindly

Badsight out

jazman777
01-03-2004, 11:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Recon_609IAP:
I'm not arguing icons Jazman at all.

I'm simply asking for why it's just friendly icons.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And I wasn't getting after you, more a jab at the forum crowd in general. You can ask a good question and get lots of silly comments. I guess that would include mine, now that I think about it.

Cossack13
01-03-2004, 11:12 PM
To me, friendly icons represent the pilot's familiarity with his sides plane types in addition to assuming a level of radio chatter identifying the location and direction of friendly plane formations.

In game terms, it does prevent you from diving down onto a bogie only to discover that it is a friendly. This can be annoying when it happens repeatedly.

There are times when I have to get to within 50 meters to properly ID certain aircraft. This can be complicated by some folks who turn markings off and fly with skins with no distinctive markings.

Of course, I normally fly in VEF where there are never any icons.

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Tully_78th
01-03-2004, 11:19 PM
Most host's I've seen using "friendly only icons" say (if asked) that it is to assist with pilot (not aircraft) ID at close range for comms purposes. While that is not always the reason given, in my experience it certainly eases the strain on comms when that setup is used.

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txmx
01-04-2004, 02:21 AM
^one reason that is but on our server(s) it's also to prevent the accidental teamkilling.

Many pilots do find it somewhat hard to identify enemy aircrafts and thus do not want to play on a servers with no icons. Moreover, ppl tend to not use the correct nation markings which also adds to the problem.

We normaly have two servers (one down for maintenance) so we use VEF2 settings on one and more loose settings on the other.

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Slammin_
01-04-2004, 02:28 AM
TX-Zen,

You remind me so much of that dude that usta call that other dude Grasshopper. You nailed it again man.

What pilot in their right mind in those days would egress/ingress at 50' above the deck? Everything even us simulated pilots tell us that for one, you will need more alt than that if you had to bail, but to avoid having to bail, don't go there!

For much of the same reason, I've deleted the B-17 from all of my mission files. Folks that fly the B17 are having a blast I'm sure, especially when it can out turn some fighters, they are not required to fly a bombing run where they are stuck straight and level for 2-5 minutes, and last but not least, they have the best snipers to protect their more than adequate airframe.

Complaints can be sent to www.kleenex.com/slammin/il-2fb (http://www.kleenex.com/slammin/il-2fb)

More dots!!

Jetbuff
01-04-2004, 02:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Recon_609IAP:
Can someone please explain this to me?

Is it because some lack the skills in FB to ID aircraft properly?

Or do they need to know that if there is no icon then it is an enemy?

This is silly - why have it one way? Certainly can't be for visibility can it?

S!
609IAP_Recon<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is no point - not to me at least. FB's problem is with mid-distance visibility not ID-ing ability.

In RL you'd be hard-pressed to lose a bogie that is closer than 3-4km, regardless of the background. In FB OTOH, you can lose planes as close as 1km away!!!

With that in mind, I see limited icons as a way to address this FB deficiency. However, since the problem applies equally to both friendlies and enemies, I prefer limited, black, range-only (no color/type) ids if I had to use icons. This friendly-only icons trend does not solve the primary visibility problem (bandits are still invisible) and adds unwarranted IFF functionality.

Another thing to note is that any icons will allow IFF if padlock is enabled at the same time - if icons are on, padlock should be off if you don't want magical IFF.

To sum up, losing sight of planes due to limitations of computer simulation is a legitimate pro-icon argument IMO. However, using colored icons, icons for friendlies only or padlock with those limited icons to provide concurrent IFF functionality isn't my cup of tea.

http://members.rogers.com/teemaz/sig.jpg

US_8th_Dosiere
01-04-2004, 03:38 AM
Using icons actually makes the game more realistic if ya ask me. The standard 5k or so is a bit extreme, but setting them to roughly 1k better represents what a real pilot could see. They also aid in both communication and teamwork. Unless you are flying with a squad that is using roger wilco or something similar, communication is rather tricky online. It is almost impossible to type anything while actually fighting, and even when not engaged, it is time consuming and inefficient.

Anywho, the purpose of friendly icons is most likely a compromise between those who want icons and those who do not. it gives a little to both sides without completely alienating either.

Platypus_1.JaVA
01-04-2004, 04:32 AM
Like I said... Turn all icons off.

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge,
ye shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be measured
to you again.

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WUAF_Badsight
01-04-2004, 05:41 AM
how many would agree that RANGE showing helps you make the kill ?

you know when you are gaining , gaining too quick , & not gaining fast enough
with them on

you know when they are out-climbing you & getting away & conversly you are helped to see if your climbing away is working , staying static , or wether they are slowly gaining

IMO having RANGE helps with making a kill eaiser

thats not what i want , so with ICONS , so when i host i set RANGE off

Recon_609IAP
01-04-2004, 08:29 AM
Platypus - lol

well bud, I know, the best would be to have it all on full real. It's too bad it's so difficult to see in this game.

It's one of my hopes for BoB that they can improve this part of the game.

Let me ask the veterns around here - how does FB complain to other combat sims as far as visibility?

S!
609IAP_Recon

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x__CRASH__x
01-04-2004, 09:39 AM
I agree that range should be set off, even if you do have friendly, and maybe a limited enemy icon on. Yes, having range helps you make the kill. You know better of how much work you have to do before you have a firing solution.

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Recon_609IAP
01-04-2004, 12:34 PM
What is so bad about range?

With a 32:1 ratio these aircraft are much smaller - makes it more difficult to determine range.

Plus, it's not like you don't know how far they are anyway, the gunsight proves that.

Takes about 5 minutes of gunnery practice to use the gunsight to determine range...

S!
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x__CRASH__x
01-04-2004, 12:58 PM
No range adds an element of difficulty and immersion. You have to really pay attention to their aircraft to judge your own actions and when you should do what.

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karost
01-04-2004, 02:12 PM
Turn all icons off. with 100% FR is the first class for online WWII Air war.

for turn on icon is just a compromise solution but at the end they will go up to meet at full real 100%

S!

JG27_Dacripler
01-04-2004, 02:18 PM
So you can prevent from shooting your team down. In a "blended" game (both teams using various axis/allied) Technology is not good enough to get a 3/D effect no matter what they try. And is impossible. Subsequently the aircraft first appear as dots, secondly larger dots, then as the actual aircraft starts to "form" as a type (IL2,109, Yac etc..)third, the aircraft(s) ratio maintains
smaller, Last and final, it becomes the proper apperance. Using the Pan in/out is the only way to identifying a simulated visual cue because of the aspect ratio which is "represented" at the distance. The game itself is visually stunning. Face it we cannot model true 3/D with 2/D ! Distances are impossible to replicate. I fly both open and closed cockpits. Personally I don't mind a game without icons but a fair representation or a visual STAR or CROSS to concur a firing solution. Otherwise it makes no difference whatsoever. However, in my experience, it is much easier to knock down an aircraft without an icon on rather than on (shooting range). Why? Because I tend to move closer to the target and second, there is no distracting icon attached to the airplane to distract my aim. (gun convergance is a false sense of security with an icon game in my humble opinion.) Icons are OK though because they make up for the lack of communication which other players do not have! Honestly, would the AXIS or ALLIED send one of its pilots on a solo mission without any communications to assist them?? Doubtful. This is the reasononing for icons for the guy who pops into a room without comms or is lacking a team. That is why they (icons) are available as an option. BUT in ground support is another affair..We are all spoiled in this game!! Flac batteries created a heck of a lot more friendly fire than it is modeled in Il2 so that's another can-o-worms open for another debate !

WUAF_Badsight
01-04-2004, 02:42 PM
sorry Recon im not trying to whine ....

seeing Range next to the bandit has always struck me as being helpfull is all

it helps you in closing & making the kill

& when you get to .6 away you can still make effective shots but as they get further away planes are hard to make ut as closing or geeting away at that range

i see Range as not good to include when you have Icons on

when i do have Icons on , all i let show is ID

that makes it a small in the air

Hristo_
01-04-2004, 03:10 PM
Personally, I very much prefer no icons. There is little else to compare to he thrill of closing to an unsuspecting aircraft, trying to ID it by its shape, camo scheme, markings.

Many times I've closed in on an unsuspecting bogey, trying hard to ID it before I fire or break off. And I've seen people do that to me. Sometimes it is the yellow nose, sometimes characteristic Soviet camo, sometimes RVT band on late war 190s. All I've been reading from books is there, actually playing a part in air combat we participate in. Icons only ruin this for me.

In that other sim icons are almost 100% on. And it affects every bit of gameplay. Attack planning, ACM, gunnery, formation flying - everything. While there may be few good aspects of it, some certainly aren't there - you can't hide against the terrain or clouds, IFF is made from 6 miles regularly, gunnery is way easier then in FB.

Even with our less than perfect LOD system, it is great. If LOD levels get more refined, it will be fantastic.

Now, I understand the need for icons if you get to fly mixed airplanes, but in any historical scenario icons are an immersion killer for me.

Recon_609IAP
01-04-2004, 04:23 PM
But most these servers use Axis vs Allied planesets. It's rare I see a mixed planeset nowdays.

So I don't quite get that argument about shooting friendlies?

I mean, not many guys I know shoot friendlies down - except for newbies - and they learn fast!

I guess I understand then for newbies - so , friendly only icons servers are for newbies then?

Might want to post that in the title - would be good to know.

S!
609IAP_Recon

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Recon_609IAP
01-04-2004, 04:36 PM
I think my question has been answered though.

so, I appreciate all the responses here.

I've decided that friendly icons are used for
1. those that can't ID (that is extreme though)
2. for communication purposes with ID on
3. for mixed planesets

Thanks all - again, I appreciate feedback.

S!
609IAP_Recon

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HellToupee
01-04-2004, 05:10 PM
With no icons no body flys with altitude, alt = death in no icons, you fly at the tree tops look up and then use your climbing machine and come up under them and let em have it. In real life people usually flew in formation or atleast with a wingman, even if it was as hard as identifying a 7pixel lod from another in real life you had more people around to do it, when the spotted a plane they most likly told their mates. In dogfight servers everyone flys around bythem selfs at the tree tops just so they can spot a dot against the sky, because on my computer unless i crank up the gamme i cant see a plane agains the ground even when im in guns range of it. On snow levels its a whole differnt story, black dots against white stick out.

I perfer icons of some level its more fair, no icons is biased towards people with beast rigs and AA and AF which on my computer seems to double the size of the lods.

http://lamppost.mine.nu/ahclan/files/sigs/spitwhiners1.jpg

Recon_609IAP
01-04-2004, 05:49 PM
Well I agree - some of the point of this was to show that if you are going to use icons, put them for both.

But these guys claim visibility isn't why they use it. Which I don't quite get either.

S!
609IAP_Recon

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plumps_
01-04-2004, 05:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Recon_609IAP:

I've decided that friendly icons are used for
1. those that can't ID (that is extreme though)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

IMO that's not the point. The point is that without icons in FB nobody can ID friend or foe at 2 km.
With friendly Icons set to 2 km a dot you see may either be a friendly at 2.1 km or a bogey at 1.1 km. There still remains enough suspension and uncertainty to keep it interesting, but you don't have to approach all the friendlies every minute to ID them. This saves you a lot of useless work and thus increases the chance of meeting an enemy, which is far more interesting than IDing friends all the time. Without enemy icons you still have to be very careful to spot an enemy at all, which increases the chance for realistic surprise attacks.

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WUAF_Badsight
01-04-2004, 06:25 PM
useless work is right

& then there are people who dont use Markings

& you can only ID different plane types when you get super close

not like 2 or 1 Km away

& you get shot by people who are not that good at ID different A/C


most servers i see are mixed plane-sets

rummyrum
01-04-2004, 06:37 PM
Flying with icons makes me focus on the icon. I can get the same info the icons give from those dots (direction, type etc)sure it may not be the same distance I would see it in real life but there are many things that cant be represented on the monitor. THe icon format gives no advantage to those who can id. It is my person belief that icons degrade the view not aid. How about if there was a floating icon or arrow in the general direction of the aircraft? Would folks use icons if they didnt give the precise location of the plane (DOT)as they do now? Perhaps this is a good argument for friendly only but what friendly only does is still allow you to tell friend from foe just by the lack of an enemy icon.

I agree with Recon in that why should it be any harder for me to id baddies, those are the one I need be concernd with. Most folks who fly in groups are on coms so their need for icons is low. There seems to be little cooperation in DF which is simply the nature of the beast. Saying that friendly icons only is a way to keep up with your buddies is just being in denial that you are using the lack of foe icons to ID the bad guys.

This horse has been beaten much but it is an important one to beat. The folks who run the dedicated servers tend to go with the flow. Since the early IL2 days I have seen icon settings go thru many whims as we all try to figure out what works best. It was because of threads like these that we are even able to set friendly icons only.

[This message was edited by rummyrum on Sun January 04 2004 at 05:46 PM.]

crazyivan1970
01-04-2004, 06:46 PM
I`m not saying anything http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

V!
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Slammin_
01-04-2004, 07:03 PM
"The folks who run the dedicated servers tend to go with the flow."

Hard to tell what the flow is. The same for Cockpit/No Cockpit. Here in the forumns, you get all this philosophical gobbly-**** that says the exact opposite of what we find in the real world (HL) as being the preferred.

I personally do think having no icons makes things unrealistically difficult, though as pointed out, as long as things are equally difficult for both sides, it's all gravy. But, the point is, and as has also been said, having limited icons, where you can see your team icons but cannot, or at least limited view of enemy icons, does make for a more playable sim IMHO.

Yes, it could be said that having friendly icons but no enemy icons is a 'cheat' that lets you immediately identify the enemy, but remember, this works both ways.

Since anyone can elect to turn off the icons, I find this entire thread kind of moot, but just like the Cockpit ON/OFF threads, those with machines that can handle, have trackir, or those that have become very proficient with Full Difficult settings feel that those that are not as proficient with those settings are less capable and are ruining the game!

I don't want to get THAT proficient, I want to enjoy playing. Could I become an ace with no icons? Sure, I think so. Do I want to? No, I prefer to not get a headache from the eye strain I experience when playing on a no icon server. To actually say that having icons degrades view is pretty far out there though!

WUAF_Badsight
01-04-2004, 07:17 PM
having some sort of icon equalises between good set-ups & poor

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rummyrum:
THe icon format gives no advantage to those who can id. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


having a freindly only icon STILL makes you have to look for & find a Bandit , it doesnt make it Harder but cuts out on chasing freindlys / getting shot by Freindlys

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I agree with Recon in that why should it be any harder for me to id baddies, those are the one I need be concernd with. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


yes & to stop wasting time tracking & chasing a freindly only to find out its a freindly when close , all planes (especially LW have limited range)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Saying that friendly icons only is a way to keep up with your buddies is just being in denial that you are using the lack of foe icons to ID the bad guys. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


the smallest icon is ID , it interfairs the least

i set icons to only show ID
(example i fly with the number 50 always , so with this set-up you will see the number 50 next to me rather than ~~~&gt; 2.34_50_Bf109_WUAF_Badsight)

rummyrum
01-04-2004, 07:22 PM
Just a matter of perspective slammin http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. A fool would turn off icons or any aid that can give him an edge in a threat filled environment such as a DF server. By degrage I meant having a better eye for tracking shots, deflection, better idea of a planes heading at a merge etc. Its not a matter of becoming an ace. I know many myself included who prefer to use no icons and mangage just fine. Every online war we have out there uses the no icon setting. It just gives better results as many rely on tactics to get kills and complete objectives. It is a matter of choice and it is good to have choices.I dont complain about icons because I feel disadvantaged. If its more important to keep up with your friends then by all means it probably is a good setting but if we use icons as an aid for our limited pc view it is not. Folks who fly high and use BnZ as a tactic sure could use the aid. Problem is most of the icon servers end up on the deck. Fun indeed but also frustrating for me at 3k. What do I care if my wingie has a tag. I know where he is its my target thats important. I feel that if you use the friendlies you should also use the foe and make it damn near impossible to discern the color of the icon.

9./JG54 Rummy

rummyrum
01-04-2004, 07:32 PM
Badsight, to me it's the mis identifications that make it all the more intersting. How many congo lines have you been in where you see all these icons chasing this one dot that has no chance in confusing you where or who he is. No split esse will get him out of that cause he has a swarm of tags on his tail and you now exactly where he is in that mess.

Again to each his own, I dont know why but this is as close as we get to FB deep thoughts....certainly fun either side of the coin though there seems to be a 3rd side with friendly only.

Cheers,

9./JG54 Rummy

WUAF_Badsight
01-04-2004, 09:03 PM
i understand that your meaning icons vrs no icons

this is a thread about why have freindly icons tho . . . .

i play all settings & VEF but my preference is in limited icons

with the way i have them all you see is your ID tag

on me all youll see is ~~&gt; 50

the full icon is waaay to much

BM357_Raven
01-04-2004, 09:11 PM
Yeah, exactly....

I find using my knees on my rudder pedals is more stable for me.

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BM357_Raven
01-04-2004, 09:13 PM
At any rate....Good news!

They're gonn be letting me out soon!

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Recon_609IAP
01-04-2004, 10:19 PM
"The point is that without icons in FB nobody can ID friend or foe at 2 km"

LOL - buddy, we got hundreds of VEF, VOW, FS missions that have run - they run every night, all day long - running full real.

Maybe YOU can't ID, but 90% of us can.


What kinda comment is that - unbelievable!

S!
609IAP_Recon

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Agnus Dei, Qui Tollis peccata mundi, Miserere nobis. Dona nobis pacem

Recon_609IAP
01-04-2004, 10:25 PM
"yes & to stop wasting time tracking & chasing a freindly only to find out its a freindly when close , all planes (especially LW have limited range)"

uh...yeah, kinda like real life ?

Now, come back with the visibility argument... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Turn them on both ways - with just one side, I know 3km ahead of time who is who - kinda silly imo.

At least if you set just range for both sides, you still have to know what a 109 is.

I was new to IL2, never flew a flight sim before it - took me 3 days to learn the shapes of all the aircraft.

Either I'm pretty smart, or we got some no brainers here :P

S!
609IAP_Recon

http://www.leeboats.com/609/sig/609_recon3.jpg
Agnus Dei, Qui Tollis peccata mundi, Miserere nobis. Dona nobis pacem

Fillmore
01-04-2004, 10:40 PM
afaik friendly icons only are for a few reasons:

-to iff within range of friendly icons (no icon=enemy), especially useful in a furball.

-to get exact distance on friendly for formation flying

-to not have icons with the target (I for one absolutley hate icons over the plane I am shooting at, it is very distracting, kills immersion etc, etc).

the main thing is it gives the iff of icons without having an obnoxious tag over your target.

WUAF_Badsight
01-04-2004, 11:24 PM
actually at 2Km its IMPOSSIBLE to tell one plane from another (type)

only from 1Km does individual shape become recognisable (& some planes look similer in FB) & even closer for country markings


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Recon_609IAP:
I was new to IL2, never flew a flight sim before it - took me 3 days to learn the shapes of all the aircraft. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

a MAJOR help is having a good computer & a good monitor

at higher res bandits become harder to spot than low res

this is besides the point because in a DF room you dont want to be spending your time chasing someone on your own side

with freindly only icons YOU STILL HAVE TO FIND A BANDIT

the distances over 1 Km are FAR from realistic when it comes to visibility .... our planes are too small then become too big

the point of freindly icon only games ?

1) to help with all plane servers
2) to eliminate freindly chasing / killing in cockpit locked servers

BM357_Raven
01-05-2004, 01:11 AM
I fly without icons nearly all the time but, I think everyone else should fly with icons because it's a helluvalot easier.

Plus if you have a bunch of people out their with no icons, flying full real, there will be total chaos. And nobody wants total chaos.. Partial chaos, maybe, but...certainly NOT total.. Or maybe total chaos would be ok, minus catastrophe. No, none of us want catastrophe. And I propose that's what we're looking at here if many more people a swayed into full switch settings..(someone else has to use that term now so I can stop..then it will be 'coined')

And with icons off there'd be a bunch of guys on my team shooting me down all the time going "whoops :S, sorry...." or "wo, was that you?" or "whoops sorry was that you again?" or, or "I thought you were someone else that just looked like you." And that's something I dont think I could tolerate.

I think I can only tolerate, perhaps, one individual in the air bouncing his mates and accidentally blowing them to bits all the time; me. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And dont let me run on tangent here people, try to stay focused on the big picture: Nine out of ten vfp's would be going blind here, instead of 2 out of a 1,000 (me and Recon). And sometimes you just gotta be realistic and step back and think about the reprocussions... it's not like seeing eye-dogs grow on trees you know.

Actually, I think all us are really gonna pay in the future for this addictive-addiction, if I may, that we have become so hooked on. All these gamma, and bravo and delta-sierra rays must be doing tremendous damage to our romantic lives as well. Our wives and girlfiends and 'perpetual fiances' (for those who proposed without setting a wedding date right around the time when IL2 was released), I mean where are these people? I'll tell you where they are. They in the living room folding clothes and watching Dr. Phil or HGTV night after night hoping that your promise of "just 5 more minutes, honey" will one day come true.. I mean what kind of life is that? And for all you know she's dialing Dr. Phil right now for his upcoming show that begins with: "Does your loved one spend way too much time on the computer playing video games or talking in forums? If so we want to hear from you." And then the jig is really up my friend.

I guess all I am trying to say comes in the form of the following question, followed by an if,then statement:

When was the last time you had your eyes checked? If you begin to see words getting fFuZzyyaYandKinDDA Runeeing togeTJRe in STrakng waysns the ne iyoud better seek the help of a trained and preferably licensed physician.

And if it's too late at night for an eye exam, then go in there and give your gal a big kiss and tell her that this time you are really only going to be five more minutes...and then come back..And we'll discuss this some more...at length.

[Join the Blazing Magnums]

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WUAF_Badsight
01-05-2004, 01:30 AM
i regularly fly "full switch" as well : ))

plumps_
01-05-2004, 03:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Recon_609IAP:
"The point is that without icons in FB nobody can ID friend or foe at 2 km"

LOL - buddy, we got hundreds of VEF, VOW, FS missions that have run - they run every night, all day long - running full real.

Maybe YOU can't ID, but 90% of us can.


What kinda comment is that - unbelievable!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Asking a question, but not accepting the answer from someone who plays with those settings a lot and likes them -- we're just trolling, are we?

-----------------------------------
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Recon_609IAP
01-05-2004, 05:46 AM
Accepting an answer that states that 'nobody' can ID a foe at 2km is simply not a correct statement.

I mean, 'everybody' likes spinach right?

Personally, I like icons both sides or not at all - I don't like friendly icons only http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Reasons: I think that visibility in the 3-4km range is lacking in this game, it's unrealistic to cleary see a dot at 5-14km, and yet lose him right in front of your eyes at 3km - without resorting to zooming/wide/normal FOV constant switching that Josf showed above.

I have many photos showing distance and size of objects. FB objects are at a 32:1 ratio - which makes them much much smaller than real life.

Lastly, I think the argument of mixed planesets is a good argument, but the servers I flew on with friendlies, don't have mixed planesets. So, I was wondering why have just one sided icons.

This came about when I saw 6 friendlies with icons all chasing this phantom aircraft that was on the deck - I thought they were shooting at ground targets - LOL. Then I see the aircraft explode.

Also, when I see icons on the difficulty setting, I join since I find it very hard to see and it gives my eyes a break. Then I find out it's friendly only. I had surgery on both eyes, they are recovering, but a bit blury, helps to have limited icons on.

I will host or join servers that use the settings I like - I was hoping some others (ie. CrazyIvan) would see that I am not the only one who feels this way. But it seems not, so I'll continue to host my own http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

S!
609IAP_Recon

http://www.leeboats.com/609/sig/609_recon3.jpg
Agnus Dei, Qui Tollis peccata mundi, Miserere nobis. Dona nobis pacem

rummyrum
01-05-2004, 06:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rummyrum:
I feel that if you use the friendlies you should also use the foe and make it damn near impossible to discern the color of the icon.

9./JG54 Rummy<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


This was my point badsight. I tend to go off on tangents but somewhere in that crap I typed was that if icons are to be used for visual aid then it should go for both sides. I prefer no icons at all but it seems I am in the minority (atleast here). There was a bit of tongue in cheek when Recon asked the question, atleast I thought there was http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

9./JG54 Rummy

LilHorse
01-05-2004, 09:15 AM
My preference would be to not have 'em at all. I have your standard issue monitor, settings lowered so my antiquated comp can handle the game and a graphics card that is so out of date it's laughable. But I have no probs IDing a/c. You just get used to it, and develope little techniques for IDing (overall shape, tracer color, flight characteristics, and AAA targeting). Of course I never fly any of the "any plane for each side" type servers.

My favorite is VEF. When you fly with a squad with comms you generally know who's where and where they are going. So when you see cons off somewhere that's not where your forces are, you're 99% sure that they are bad guys.

In short, for me, leave 'em off. Don't need 'em.

A.K.Davis
01-05-2004, 09:49 AM
Can also be considered a "simulation" of real time voice communication and coordination (as the average player is not on voice with all teammates). The typical situational awareness conditions on a dogfight server are so far from reality, some artificial compensation is needed.

What blows my mind is when both friendly icons and padlock are on, but the icons are set for less than 3km. Just set the icons for 3km for godsakes. An aircraft moving at 400mph can close this distance in about 15 seconds. It's a lot closer than you think.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

Recon_609IAP
01-05-2004, 11:33 AM
"There was a bit of tongue in cheek when Recon asked the question, atleast I thought there was .

9./JG54 Rummy"

Yeah there was http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif lol but it got so interesting after that I just had to push the envelope (what do you expect from a pilot - we always are pushing the envelope - right?) LOL.

S!
609IAP_Recon

http://www.leeboats.com/609/sig/609_recon3.jpg
Agnus Dei, Qui Tollis peccata mundi, Miserere nobis. Dona nobis pacem

Recon_609IAP
01-05-2004, 11:35 AM
"somewhere in that crap I typed was that if icons are to be used for visual aid then it should go for both sides"

It was good stuff, I agree wholeheartedly, and yes we must be the minority.

S!
609IAP_Recon

http://www.leeboats.com/609/sig/609_recon3.jpg
Agnus Dei, Qui Tollis peccata mundi, Miserere nobis. Dona nobis pacem

plumps_
01-05-2004, 11:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rummyrum:
I feel that if you use the friendlies you should also use the foe and make it damn near impossible to discern the color of the icon.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Try to see it from the other side: You shouldn't see it as a server with icons on that leaves out enemy icons. It's rather a no-icon, full real server in terms of fighting the enemy, that adds limited friendly icons to enhance the fun for many players.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Recon_609IAP:
Also, when I see icons on the difficulty setting, I join since I find it very hard to see and it gives my eyes a break. Then I find out it's friendly only. I had surgery on both eyes, they are recovering, but a bit blury, helps to have limited icons on.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe you should start a thread titled "Please be more specific in your server description". IMO the short description that you can read before you join a server should contain information about the plane set, the map and all the other characteristics that don't show in the difficulty settings -- like friendly icons only.

-----------------------------------
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plumps_
01-05-2004, 11:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Recon_609IAP:
"The point is that without icons in FB nobody can ID friend or foe at 2 km"

LOL - buddy, we got hundreds of VEF, VOW, FS missions that have run - they run every night, all day long - running full real.

Maybe YOU can't ID, but 90% of us can.


What kinda comment is that - unbelievable!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I'd like to know how good you really are at identifiyng aircraft from 2 km distance. Here's a little test for everybody. Details of two screenshots taken at 1290 x 960 resolution and with 2xAA, 2xAF. The view is fully zoomed in, original size. Each picture shows six out of seven aircraft that you will find on a 1942 server:

La-5, Mig-3u, P-40 M, Yak-9 for the red team.
B-239, Bf-109 G-2, Fw-190 A-4 for the blue team.

On one of the pictures all aircraft are at 2.00 km, on the other the distances are 1.30, 1.70, 2.00, 2.00, 2.00, and 2.30 km.

Now I'd like to see how 90% of you find out which LOD belongs to which team.
Please post your suggestions like "a8, a9, a12 blue; a7, a10, a 11 red".
Maybe you can even find out which dot is which aircraft?

I'll post the same pictures with symbols toggled on when some people have answered the question.

http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/zzz-forum-dots1.jpg
http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/zzz-forum-dots3.jpg

-----------------------------------
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Kampagne für IL-2 1.2: I-16 - Kampf im Kaukasus (Deutsch) (http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/kampagne.html)

BM357_Raven
01-05-2004, 12:28 PM
WUAF_Badsight we're all good now, thanks http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And Recon, I like spinach too! Also, if my comment about eyesight seemed inappropriate to you in lieu of your surgery I apologize. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Was just being a card.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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BM357_Raven
01-05-2004, 12:33 PM
I cant tell at that distance.

Now if they were firing, that would probably be different. I dunno..

They are way too small to tell (at least for me). I basically need to get much closer to tell.. Sometimes it means you have to approach friendlies cautiously, until you can tell what they are.

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BM357_Raven
01-05-2004, 12:41 PM
In an online war, however, where all the friendly planes are on the same comm channel, you can often relay information between each other to figure if a plane is an enemy.

If planes are assigned into groups, flying at pre-set headings and pre-set alt., then when a plane at another level is flying in the wrong direction, you can begin the attack with certainty..

I dont usually fire from far away anyhow, so by the time they are in range, their planform has been longed confirmed and their markings are shining.

But it is nice to know asap if the spec in the sky is friendly or foe...This way you dont waste your time chasing a buddy or get wasted because you 'though' the spec was a friendly.

Communication skills, navigation, formations, and a good solid plan help tremendously in telling friendly from foe.

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BM357_Raven
01-05-2004, 12:45 PM
My big thing, maybe the next time we fly against the IV/JG51 is to setup a little war room where i dont fly..

We print our maps out you know, and use plotters to draw vectors between airfields, towns, and IP's. So I could just lay the map out on a folding table in the center of the room and move pieces around the board like a general in a war room. Maybe even put the BBC on in the background, lol. That's my plan..

The JG, I think even laminate their maps and use erasable markers to draw on their maps. I wasnt that smart, but with the next maps, I might just do that too.

You can really take FB to the craziest levels at full switch if you want to.. Anyhow that's what's up with us.

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LilHorse
01-05-2004, 02:03 PM
I'll take a bash at plumps planes. But I'll say in my defence that yes, they are small and I'm at work on a screen smaller than what I have at home (and that one aint so big).

a6- ?
a5- P-47
a4- 190
a3- ?
a2- I-16
a1- I-153

b6- IL2
b5-?
b4- Brewster?
b3- hard one, I-153 closer or Yak or 109, not sure
b2- 109
b1- P-40

LilHorse
01-05-2004, 02:12 PM
I should also say that one of the things that helps for me is that I know what a 109 looks like (barring any mistake I made in the above post http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. And Stukas are pretty easy to ID. With a little practice 190s are identifiable. So, I know what all my planes look like and anything else is usually VVS.

Although I guess the reverse is true for VVS guys. If you know the shapes of those three yer pretty good to go on who to attack.

XyZspineZyX
01-05-2004, 02:15 PM
A still screengrab only tells part of the story. Last I checked, air combat was a game that was always moving, and compounding the problem of plane visuals, tracking and ID.

Point is, our monitors and this graphic system cannot replicate human vision, no matter how much the "hairshirt realism" guys say they can unfailingly see everything. Icons are a necessary evil, and having them only for one side is a half-thought-through, half solution.

plumps_
01-05-2004, 03:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LilHorse:
I'll take a bash at plumps planes.
...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LilHorse, choose from my list. Think of it like you hit the "S" key and found that the following planes are in the air:

La-5, Mig-3u, P-40 M, Yak-9 for the red team.
B-239, Bf-109 G-2, Fw-190 A-4 for the blue team.

-----------------------------------
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Kampagne für IL-2 1.2: I-16 - Kampf im Kaukasus (Deutsch) (http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/kampagne.html)

WUAF_Badsight
01-05-2004, 03:28 PM
Plumps pic is a little mis-leading as its not full screen size

but being zoomed in Does make the plane a LOT eaiser to ID

but at 2 Km its IMPOSSIBLE to distinguish one type from another

only from 1 Km & under can you start to make type out & even closer for Markings

lots & lots of encounters in VEF are people closing riight in on each other to ID without firing only to find out it actually WAS a Bandit

this is the way an online war should be

but in a DF room you can set freindly icons to cut back on the roaming around just looking greatly

& the smallest icon is the ID icon (as opposed to TYPE or RANGE or NAME)

Recon_609IAP
01-05-2004, 03:59 PM
What FOV are those pics from?

And I'm not allowed to use zoom to help ID?

Actually, that begs another question, let me approach this differently:

if you don't think you can ID at 2km but at 1km, why allow icons to ID at 2km and not at 1km?

And if you can ID at 1km, why have icons at all?

Otherwise, does this mean you want super human ability to tell an aircraft from 2km?

Could you ID a warbird from 2km in real life?

How close does one have to be to id? or is this to save you the trouble from flying closer?

But with friendly, who cares - you simply know from 3-5km out they are friendly? That is handy and very challenging http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



S!
609IAP_Recon

http://www.leeboats.com/609/sig/609_recon3.jpg
Agnus Dei, Qui Tollis peccata mundi, Miserere nobis. Dona nobis pacem

plumps_
01-05-2004, 04:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by plumps_:
The view is fully zoomed in, original size. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Further zooming these pictures won't help you much as it doesn't increase the resolution. All you will see is little pixels.

-----------------------------------
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Kampagne für IL-2 1.2: I-16 - Kampf im Kaukasus (Deutsch) (http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/kampagne.html)

plumps_
01-05-2004, 04:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Recon_609IAP:
What FOV are those pics from?

And I'm not allowed to use zoom to help ID?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

These details from original screenshot already represent the best in game view you can get at that distance with the given screen resolution of 1280x960.

-----------------------------------
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Recon_609IAP
01-05-2004, 04:08 PM
Mind giving the historical year and map those screenshots are from?

I've been flying historical wars online for 2 years and still haven't made it to 1943 yet http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I ask because if there are hurricanes or p47's, they typically are larger like 109's.

So, it can be more difficult to id from that range in those circumstances

S!
609IAP_Recon

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Agnus Dei, Qui Tollis peccata mundi, Miserere nobis. Dona nobis pacem

plumps_
01-05-2004, 04:23 PM
Recon, are you actually reading what other people write? All your questions have been answered in this thread. Just try to understand it.

I stated above that it's a 1942 plane set. I even included the types to choose from.

-----------------------------------
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rummyrum
01-05-2004, 05:19 PM
Can a real pilot id a plane at 2000 meters or 1.24 miles? Would be good to know.

9./JG54 Rummy

Recon_609IAP
01-05-2004, 07:22 PM
Ah, yeah, sorry plumps - I was checking in from work - I missed the year and planeset. Read through the post too quick (I'm surprised there are so many posts over this question)

Well - I did a test at 2km, your dead on right - holy cow, I am really wrong here http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Seems you have to catch them climbing - showing their face to get a better ID.

After that I'm really convinced that friendlies at anything over 1km is super bionic man eyes now.

Good question Rummy.

S!
609IAP_Recon

http://www.leeboats.com/609/sig/609_recon3.jpg
Agnus Dei, Qui Tollis peccata mundi, Miserere nobis. Dona nobis pacem

plumps_
01-06-2004, 07:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Can a real pilot id a plane at 2000 meters or 1.24 miles? Would be good to know.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Interesting question, but that's not the point here as friendly icons are not meant to simulate visibility alone but rather situational awareness which is comprised of many more factors.

In real life you have radio communication with other pilots and with ground control, and you know about your operations and the flight plans of your unit.

All this is true only for your own army; that's why it's realistic to give you better awareness of your own army than of the enemy's.

---

For all those who were guessing here's the solution to my little test.

http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/zzz-forum-dots1.jpg http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/zzz-forum-dots2.jpg


http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/zzz-forum-dots3.jpg http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/zzz-forum-dots4.jpg

Bf109 = Bf-109 G-2
FW190 = Fw-190 A-4
La = La-5
MiG = Mig-3u
P-40 = P-40 M
Yak = Yak-9

-----------------------------------
http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/stulogo-banner.jpg (http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/)

Kampagne für IL-2 1.2: I-16 - Kampf im Kaukasus (Deutsch) (http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/kampagne.html)

LilHorse
01-06-2004, 09:23 AM
I think there's more to be concidered here than the ability to ID static, long-range, head on views. Quite often you're seeing the plane from many angles while you and it are moving. This can make IDing much easier. I have yet to accidentally shoot down a friendly in a no icon situation or even fire at a friendly by mistake. And as I mentioned (despite my dismal performance in plumps ID test http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) I have little problems IDing planes in those settings.

The fact is, many people like no icon/ full real servers because they are successful in them. If the ability to perform what you are intending to do in such servers was so drastically impared by the nature of the settings nobody would fly in them. But we aren't impared by such settings. In fact, it can be an aid to certain types of tactics (BnZ). I disagree with an earlier post that FR servers are no good for high alt. flying. Again I have no problems seeing a/c below me from 4 or 5k. And as for IDing them; you might not be able to tell if they are frienly or enemy by looking at them from that high up but, as I mentioned before, there are other clues that can give you an indication as to who that is down there. Sure, you might waste a dive on friendlies but you just zoom back up again. And in online wars you have more information, especially if you're on comms, to work with than just what you see with your own eyes.

LilHorse
01-06-2004, 09:31 AM
BTW, at the risk of jinxing this thread, I just wanted to say that this is one of the only times this topic has come up and gone on for such a long time that it has not degenerated into a flame war. The exchanges have, for the most part, been thoughtful and respectful. Bravo.