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S.taibanzai
05-09-2005, 07:45 AM
I was in a Czech war mission where

we had to protect our advancing tanks PzIIIG

sudenly i saw a I-16 type24 detsroy 3 tanks with his guns http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

21:23:28 LIAG_11 I-16t24 3-PzIIIG
21:24:24 LIAG_11 I-16t24 3-PzIIIG
21:29:12 LIAG_11 I-16t24 3-PzIIIG



is that normal

S.taibanzai
05-09-2005, 07:45 AM
I was in a Czech war mission where

we had to protect our advancing tanks PzIIIG

sudenly i saw a I-16 type24 detsroy 3 tanks with his guns http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

21:23:28 LIAG_11 I-16t24 3-PzIIIG
21:24:24 LIAG_11 I-16t24 3-PzIIIG
21:29:12 LIAG_11 I-16t24 3-PzIIIG



is that normal

BBB_Hyperion
05-09-2005, 07:56 AM
Ingame yes irl doubtful .)

crazyivan1970
05-09-2005, 09:58 AM
Maybe rockets?

Ugly_Kid
05-09-2005, 10:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Maybe rockets? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, nothing new - La-5 and co are able to bust P IVs and P IIIs, there was tons of discussion already during Bellum about this. (Guess who is not able to destroy opponent tanks with their guns respectively) - I dare say there would have been no real need for tank busting guns of special ammo and larger caliber if it had been like this http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BBB_Hyperion
05-09-2005, 10:25 AM
Here i made a track how it is done with i16-24 rockets and guns.

3.04m

http://rapidshare.de/files/1663283/i1624vstanks.zip.html
(press free at bottom)

How much 24 type Models were used btw ?

Jetbuff
05-09-2005, 10:46 AM
We let this inaccuracy go and yet we are quick to ridicule the ".50's could kill tigers" threads. In all honesty, what's the difference? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

BBB_Hyperion
05-09-2005, 10:51 AM
I proved already that all small and medium tanks under PZV can be destroyed with 50s in this Game.

Here is a picture of a P47 destroying a T34-85
http://www.butcherbirds.de/hypesstorage/t3485knocked%20out%20by%2050s.jpg

crazyivan1970
05-09-2005, 10:56 AM
If you can kill T-34 from the rear with FW190 using some attack angle...does it make it wrong too? I have seen memoirs stating that it was possible to destroy tanks especially light ones with 20mm shells if fired from above into engine area. Not side, not rear or front by all means.. from the angle into the greed that cover the engine. Could that be the case? Honestly i don`t know if it`s right or wrong. PZIII wasn`t that durable as Panther or Tiger.. so i am kind of not suprized. But, if it`s possible to destroy it with 20mms from the front or side... i`d say it`s not correct then.

crazyivan1970
05-09-2005, 10:57 AM
oh man...Hyper... LOL

WWMaxGunz
05-09-2005, 12:13 PM
Some top armor was 25mm or more on heavy tanks but most was not. Still it must be hit at
high angle, not close thin angle, to be low protection. Find out some time thickness of
top hatch covers that had to be lifted. Tanks are not uniformly thick steel fortresses.

Not the slots on rear decks of those T-34's. They are for cooling airflow of engine. Too
small for a grenade, bullets and shells can get through. How many tanks had none of that?

Still, it seems way too easy to kill them with MG's. But this is not a ground action sim,
the ground elements are more candy/targets than not.

faustnik
05-09-2005, 12:19 PM
Rear top deck plates of PzIIIs were typically 12mms thick. Certainly from 0 deflection it would be possible for a .50 or ShVak to defeat it under from 100 to 200 meters. If a real I-16 pilot would try a vertical dive at 200 meters is another question.

crazyivan1970
05-09-2005, 12:40 PM
You are talking about plates faust... but what about ventilation access? What i am trying to say.. is that not only SHVAK is guilty of destroying light/medium tanks ... MG151/20 is more then capable of it too. Wouldn`t you agree.

So IMO, big question is not whether soviet 20mm guns should be destroying tanks, it`s about ability of 20mm cannons destroy tanks, period, right?

faustnik
05-09-2005, 12:54 PM
That depends on muzzle velocity Ivan. The MgFF would have much less success than the Mg151, Hispano or Shvak. .50, UB, ShVak, Mg151 and Hispano should all have the ability to penetrate the deck plates.

The ventalation louvers of the Pz MkIII are not direct openings.

BuzzU
05-09-2005, 02:12 PM
Hyper...........Cripes! Did you pull out of that dive?

VW-IceFire
05-09-2005, 02:12 PM
I had read that in Korea F-51 pilots (I think) used their .50cals against T-34 tanks sometimes being able to richochet bullets off the ground into the underside of the tank and cause some damage.

Tanks aren't totally immune, just very well protected.

quiet_man
05-09-2005, 02:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
That depends on muzzle velocity Ivan. The MgFF would have much less success than the Mg151, Hispano or Shvak. .50, UB, ShVak, Mg151 and Hispano should all have the ability to penetrate the deck plates.

The ventalation louvers of the Pz MkIII are not direct openings. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think the calculation of "critical damage" is a bit off

some guns have a high chance for "lucky" hits, while with others you have to "work" for it

quiet_man

p1ngu666
05-09-2005, 02:32 PM
shame theres no disabled tank, or field guns
ive had rockets go RIGHT next to the flak and it keeps firing, irl ud make mince meat of the crew.

whitetornado_1
05-09-2005, 03:09 PM
Someone try taking out a T-34 with a
Stuka G-1.You see the sparks fly being
hit and it doesn't blow up.

Someone else try it plz.

I have tryed to the point of removing the
G-1 from my Kursk missions because they
are just not affective enough.

crazyivan1970
05-09-2005, 03:21 PM
I think more vaild test would be different weapons vs same tank. Whether it`s T-34 or PZIII...

G1 pops T-34s with ease if you attack from the rear... which is the way it should be done. Side and front highly doubtful.

AnaK774
05-09-2005, 04:43 PM
Shvak in game can destroy most german tanks
all III's, even panthers...

In Bellum War it was common view to see german attack fail due exploiting Yak9D's and la5 pilots strafe 2/3 panthers with cannon only

http://il2fb-bellum.com.ar/rep/rep_07197.html.gz
16:39:57 PE_Anak Yak-3 3-PzVA
Hopefully it will be looked into in next patch

BBB_Hyperion
05-09-2005, 05:29 PM
The P47 was easy to recover some flaps and things but worked ok.

But here i had trouble.

http://www.butcherbirds.de/hypesstorage/190%20t34%2085.jpg

Jetbuff
05-10-2005, 01:08 AM
So .50's can take out a T34 better than German 20mm rounds? Laughable.

Yes, tanks (like other ground objects) don't have a complex damage model so you can't disable them or scare of the crew in IL-2. However, I believe they simply should be immune to all but the luckiest of hits from anything less than the Vya 23mm. They should only be routinely vulnerable to proper ground attack munitions such as rockets, bombs and specialized anti-armour guns like the BK3.7, Vya 37 and MK103.

Remember that many of these tanks could resist blows from other tanks! And you want me to believe .50's can do the job? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Too late for that I guess...

Lazy312
05-10-2005, 02:17 AM
Shvak and MG151/20 were both able to penetrate armor up to 25mm (150 meters, 90 degrees). It's no wonder they can destroy light tanks and even medium ones from some angles. Only AP rounds would be effective however and shvak has every other round AP in this game.

UB was able to penetrate 20mm@350m so I guess it was capable of damaging or disabling light tanks, I would expect the same for M2 or other comparable machine guns.

For example AFAIK Panther had 16mm turret top armor - if attacked directly from above (I know it is nonsense), both 20mm cannons and 12mm machine guns could penetrate and kill it's crew. I think that killing of tank's crew isn't modelled so we got "tank destroyed" instead..

Vipez-
05-13-2005, 08:12 AM
As a bellum veteran, this was a huge problem for axis players..However, Oleg replied ages ago, that 4.0 will fix this.. but the problem is the two weeks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

By the way, Hyp did you really destroy the T34 with Focke 20mms ? I used to try it in Bellum and No matter what I tried, i never succeeded in destroying t34 with mg151/20.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Guess I am not as L337 as you are http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

kinda OT: this ammo-belt issue again reminds me, how this game could need ability to manually to girdle the ammobelts.. for example, BF110 with BK 3.7 only has HE-ammunition, it would be great to have ability to have AP as well .. SO KV-1s wouldn't be the problem for 110-mudmovers anymore http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BBB_Hyperion
05-13-2005, 06:46 PM
I find your lack of believe disturbing http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Check here 3.04m 3 tracks things considered impossible by some .)

http://rapidshare.de/files/1746071/tankbusting.zip.html
(press free at bottom)

zaelu
05-14-2005, 04:56 AM
My question is: could those RS-82 rockets carried by I16, I153, Migs, La's, etc destroy tanks?

I thought they were antiaircraft only and they had a fuse that made them blow after few seconds and they blew shrapnel to destroy aircrafts not tanks... something like the flak shell.

Were they armorpiercing? If so they had something like two modes of fire: a) fused for AA and b) unfused using they AP caracteristics to penetrate the armor of the tanks?

jurinko
05-14-2005, 05:25 AM
I have found very difficult to destroy T-34 from the rear even with MK103 30mm high-velocity cannon. Once I did a scenario from the Kursk battle when few dozens of Hs-129 destroyed Russian tank platoon near village Gostischevo, but those MK101 30mm on Hs-129 did not work - had to replace them for 75mm PAK from 1944.

BBB_Hyperion
05-14-2005, 11:39 AM
@zaelu you are absolutely right normal explosives warheats should be near to useless cause you would need hollow charged rockets to get through armor others explode just outside with little deforming at least not enough to destroy the tank or damage it beyond repair (maybe tracks damaged). Only tanks where it could do something would be non diesel oil driven ones. Cause the explosion can ignite the fuel.

Further 20mm are hardly enough to take out tanks completely . We all read stories about pilots shooting 20 mm at the hatch and killing some personal but that didnt take out the tank. What most forget is when the bullet get through the closed top hatch even under ideal conditions it lost already major part of its kinetic energy . So it must be very lucky to strike something that important to take it out. With the small shooting window on the approach its unlikely that you can get enough shoots in the target area because when over point of no return then you cant pull out anymore.

@jurinko
You can kill any t34 tank with mk103 but you need a very high dive angle.

The ai cant do tank killing of types better or equal than t34 they always attack at wrong angle. With 75 mm you cheated on em cause they use same angle but higher firepower .)

What makes them very ineffective. Thats for both sides if il2 43 m or ju87g or hs129 or 110 bk35. But russian ai has rockets to take out at least some heavier tanks while all medium tanks up to pziv are easy meat for russian planes . T34 and above are tough to get for ai cause ai isnt able to use right tactics.

quiet_man
05-17-2005, 01:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lazy312:
Shvak and MG151/20 were both able to penetrate armor up to 25mm (150 meters, 90 degrees). It's no wonder they can destroy light tanks and even medium ones from some angles. Only AP rounds would be effective however and shvak has every other round AP in this game.

UB was able to penetrate 20mm@350m so I guess it was capable of damaging or disabling light tanks, I would expect the same for M2 or other comparable machine guns.

For example AFAIK Panther had 16mm turret top armor - if attacked directly from above (I know it is nonsense), both 20mm cannons and 12mm machine guns could penetrate and kill it's crew. I think that killing of tank's crew isn't modelled so we got "tank destroyed" instead.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

so ~100 Gramms of steel, fired from an airplane flying 150m above the tank in 90 degree dive, barrely penetrates the turret armor, falls on the floor of the tank and BOOM it explodes?

all those stupid people in WWII, failed to see that it was so easy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

still I think there is something not right with modelling of critical damage by AP rounds at all

a good example is the MG151/20, at the moment it has much more AP rounds and it is one of the weakest guns in the game for critical damage, I regularely fail to do critical with it even at close range.
Shouldn't the 20mm go straigt through an engine block? 30mm AP seams to have a higher chance of critical damage, but it is only a slight difference in the size of the hole. Also MGs seam to have a higher chance of doing critical damage, but the bullets have much less energy than 20mm.

quiet_man

73GIAP_Milan
05-18-2005, 01:14 AM
Some other point; how are the tanks in the game modelled?
Have they really got more front and side armor and lesser top armor, or just all armor equally divided on the tankmodel ?
Judging by the pics posted it seems the tanks have separate armorvalues for all sides.

BBB_Hyperion
05-18-2005, 03:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Oleg Maddox

We corrected all PzIVs for 3.05 update in future.

We found that it is really possible to destry it by any 20 mm cannons from above. It is becasue for the armor modeling of the ground objects we use way more simplified (mostly often used cumulative method for ground objects) model of penetration than for the planes (which is the main thing in terms of flight sim and it is done with way more complex penetration model....) It doesn't means that it was a bug... simply was need more tunes and such thing was found just now... Damage of ground objects in code isn't the same complexity as the it is done for the planes.

More complex damage of ground object you will find only in the next sim.
However it means that for BoB will be really neccessary more power PC....due to more complex calculations in real time which we plan to implement there.

ingame tank-armor

[PzIIIM]
Description Germany's tank PzIIIM
PanzerBodyFront 0.055 // 0.50 + 0.005 additional front plates
PanzerBodyBack 0.050
PanzerBodySide 0.030
PanzerBodyTop 0.016
PanzerHead 0.040
PanzerHeadTop 0.017

[PzIVF]
Description Germany's tank PzIVF
PanzerBodyFront 0.050
PanzerBodyBack 0.020
PanzerBodySide 0.030
PanzerBodyTop 0.010
PanzerHead 0.040
PanzerHeadTop 0.010

[PzVA]
Description Germany's tank PzVA (Panther)
PanzerBodyFront 0.085
PanzerBodyBack 0.040
PanzerBodySide 0.040
PanzerBodyTop 0.020
PanzerHead 0.075
PanzerHeadTop 0.020

[T34]
Description USSR's tank T-34.
PanzerBodyFront 0.055 // 0.045 -- good front shape
PanzerBodyBack 0.045
PanzerBodySide 0.045
PanzerBodyTop 0.020
PanzerHead 0.060 // 0.050 -- good front shape
PanzerHeadTop 0.020

[T34_85]
Description USSR's tank T-34-85.
PanzerBodyFront 0.090
PanzerBodyBack 0.047
PanzerBodySide 0.060
PanzerBodyTop 0.020
PanzerHead 0.080
PanzerHeadTop 0.020
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Hope that answers some questions http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Vipez-
05-20-2005, 11:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by zaelu:
My question is: could those RS-82 rockets carried by I16, I153, Migs, La's, etc destroy tanks?

I thought they were antiaircraft only and they had a fuse that made them blow after few seconds and they blew shrapnel to destroy aircrafts not tanks... something like the flak shell.

Were they armorpiercing? If so they had something like two modes of fire: a) fused for AA and b) unfused using they AP caracteristics to penetrate the armor of the tanks? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

RS-82 with high explosive warhead, not likely to destroy any medium to heavy tank. Light tank, perhaps, depending where the hit was archieved. Armor piercing BRS-132 were offcourse much better (assuming it archieved a hit). But this is where Oleg's view and some of us view's different.. I don't suppose Clintruin would have the old URL where OLEG told the community how effective the russian rockets were http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Infact, what i've read it was the exact opposite.

RS-82 and 132 rockets were fired from wooden tracks. Plus the poor construction quality of these weapons made it an extremely inaccurate weapon. Possibly only way for IL-2 pilot to hit with it rockets to tanks was a column of tanks in narrow road, when fired in salvos.

In western front, probably success rate of allies hitting armor with the rockets was probably something like few hits out of 1000 shots .. for russians it was probably even less. I would imagine HVAR and british rockets to be superior compared to VVS rockets.. atleast when looking at the muzzle velocity, construction quality, and size of the warhead..

This is something I have hoped to get fixxed, remove the ├╝ber accurate rockets.

73GIAP_Milan
05-22-2005, 02:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Oleg Maddox

We corrected all PzIVs for 3.05 update in future.

We found that it is really possible to destry it by any 20 mm cannons from above. It is becasue for the armor modeling of the ground objects we use way more simplified (mostly often used cumulative method for ground objects) model of penetration than for the planes (which is the main thing in terms of flight sim and it is done with way more complex penetration model....) It doesn't means that it was a bug... simply was need more tunes and such thing was found just now... Damage of ground objects in code isn't the same complexity as the it is done for the planes.

More complex damage of ground object you will find only in the next sim.
However it means that for BoB will be really neccessary more power PC....due to more complex calculations in real time which we plan to implement there.

ingame tank-armor

[PzIIIM]
Description Germany's tank PzIIIM
PanzerBodyFront 0.055 // 0.50 + 0.005 additional front plates
PanzerBodyBack 0.050
PanzerBodySide 0.030
PanzerBodyTop 0.016
PanzerHead 0.040
PanzerHeadTop 0.017

[PzIVF]
Description Germany's tank PzIVF
PanzerBodyFront 0.050
PanzerBodyBack 0.020
PanzerBodySide 0.030
PanzerBodyTop 0.010
PanzerHead 0.040
PanzerHeadTop 0.010

[PzVA]
Description Germany's tank PzVA (Panther)
PanzerBodyFront 0.085
PanzerBodyBack 0.040
PanzerBodySide 0.040
PanzerBodyTop 0.020
PanzerHead 0.075
PanzerHeadTop 0.020

[T34]
Description USSR's tank T-34.
PanzerBodyFront 0.055 // 0.045 -- good front shape
PanzerBodyBack 0.045
PanzerBodySide 0.045
PanzerBodyTop 0.020
PanzerHead 0.060 // 0.050 -- good front shape
PanzerHeadTop 0.020

[T34_85]
Description USSR's tank T-34-85.
PanzerBodyFront 0.090
PanzerBodyBack 0.047
PanzerBodySide 0.060
PanzerBodyTop 0.020
PanzerHead 0.080
PanzerHeadTop 0.020
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Hope that answers some questions http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It does but also generates the question (to the original poster) which weapons did the I-16's use?
Assuming it was both cannons and machineguns judging by the planetype "I-16 type24".
Also, from where did they hit? (top, front, side or rear?)

Willey
05-22-2005, 02:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Still, it seems way too easy to kill them with MG's. But this is not a ground action sim,
the ground elements are more candy/targets than not. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's what I don't like about it. It wasn't called Il-2 for nothing initially - but it transformed to some kind a dogfight circus... ground action really comes short in FB.

BBB_Hyperion
05-22-2005, 02:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 73GIAP_Milan:

It does but also generates the question (to the original poster) which weapons did the I-16's use?
Assuming it was both cannons and machineguns judging by the planetype "I-16 type24".
Also, from where did they hit? (top, front, side or rear?) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wonder why i take the time and record tracks how it is done and even post them here.

Check 5th post shows how it is done with rockets and 20 mm in this game.