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View Full Version : Mustangs vs Bf109s- offline AI



Chuck_Older
06-23-2005, 08:05 PM
Well. I just played around with the Mustang MkIII. Feels like I'm cheating http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gifI simply chased down the K4 and beat it to death. Even ace AI could only do some barell rolls and slow rolls to throw off my aim. All I had to do was roll slower and in a wider circle, gain altitude at the top of the roll, and pounce.

So, I did the same fight (100m, Smolensk, Enemy ace AI in a Bf109K4 with 75% fuel load), but I flew a P-51D with 75% fuel

Now THIS was a fight.

The AI tried a head-on, which I avoided with a tight roll under his nose. When he nosed down, I came out of the roll and pulled up. When I did a wing-over, he was out of range, and I gave chase. He was using a very wide radius spiral climb, which I countered with lead pursuit, slightly under his altiude, so if he dove, I got a free shot. If he climbed, he was too slow (in my estimation), so all that happened was a lazy chase for a few thosand feet. Then he leveled out. I continued my climb for a short time, since he was out of range anyway. Immediately, he rolled right, and performed a low yo-yo, looking for a quick zoom climb. I rolled opposite, so if he tried anything truly amazing, I'd at worst be 90* at his beam, and he'd still be in front of me. He dove away, gained speed, and zoomed. I was forced to follow, at a slower speed, from my opposite roll. I verrrry slowly gained, and then he repeated the whole level-out-low-yo-yo routine as I expected the AI to

No surprise, but- isn't that what he should be doing?

This fight went on like this to 14000 feet. I still hadn't pulled the trigger yet- he was always just out of range. We played this game of follow the leader about 7 times.

The next time he yo-yo'd, I dropped full flaps and climbed for all I was worth. This is about 13000 feet. The D model will still snap roll, but quick rudder will save you, I find. Even at 130 mph IAS, that spin was recoverable under full power. But, although I stalled, no spin. But now, he was a few thousand feet under me, and going in the opposite direction. He was fats, I was slow, and he could climb like all get out from his short dive.

I stood on the rudder, and winged-over to the left. He was going straight up, I was going straight down. Close call but no collision. We missed by a few feet, less than 10'

I rolled 90* left, he turned to his right- a scissors, which I refused to join, but I had to complete my turn

We passed about 100m from each other, at about 60* from each other, each going in the opposite direction. He nosed down.


I had some speed from my wing over, so I nosed up. This is about 8 thousand feet.

Another wingover to my left, and I spot him under me, 90* or so to my flight path, flying towards me. I rolled left, he flew straight and then climbed. I flicked over the rest of the way and pursued again, but not directly behind him. Time for new tactics- this was going nowhere!

He leveled out, and I didn't climb to his level (about 2K feet above me). I accelerated. I had to use full radiator door and 105% throttle max now because of my coolant temp.

I got to about 250 mph IAS and then bgan a gentle climb. He was still trying to speed away. He was about 500m away

I gradually gained altitude on him, and he gained a little speration, maybe another 100m.

When I was about 1000 feet above him (about 8500-9000 feet altitude), I began my gentle dive. He was perhaps 20* off my nose to the left, flying in the same direction as me. I kept him there because in the P-51D, you can be above your opponent and still see him through the canopy.

I went from 250 mph IAS to about 290 mph IAS fairly quickly. he was still chugging away for all he was worth.

At about 300m seperation (my convergance range), I nudged the rudder left and framed him in my sights. I pulled the trigger fo the first time in this 15 minute fight. I was still above him by about 10m

Bright flashes along the fuselage. Can't tell where I hit. I immediately go into zoom climb

I climb for 10 or 15 seconds, and roll left, looking for the enemy.

A thin smoke trail gives him away, diving for safety

The second pounce did him in- holed the wing, and he spun in


Well. Quite a good fight from my point of view!

Neither one of us wanted to dogfight. We both had the chance and both refused

He managed his energy as much as he could. I tried to do the same, while still making sure I could not get tricked into going on the defensive- I made sure I stayed behind him. But to do it, I had to give away E a few times. I tried to be stingy with it. i would even call much of the fight boring- it was like chess. What can he do with what he's got? What can I do?

he used his plane's strengths, I used mine. the difference, it seemed to me, was my ability to accelerate in a dive

Simply the best fight I've ever had in a flight sim, because this seemed at least a passable example of what might really happen in a fight between the two adversaries. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

PS new clouds look great

Chuck_Older
06-23-2005, 08:05 PM
Well. I just played around with the Mustang MkIII. Feels like I'm cheating http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gifI simply chased down the K4 and beat it to death. Even ace AI could only do some barell rolls and slow rolls to throw off my aim. All I had to do was roll slower and in a wider circle, gain altitude at the top of the roll, and pounce.

So, I did the same fight (100m, Smolensk, Enemy ace AI in a Bf109K4 with 75% fuel load), but I flew a P-51D with 75% fuel

Now THIS was a fight.

The AI tried a head-on, which I avoided with a tight roll under his nose. When he nosed down, I came out of the roll and pulled up. When I did a wing-over, he was out of range, and I gave chase. He was using a very wide radius spiral climb, which I countered with lead pursuit, slightly under his altiude, so if he dove, I got a free shot. If he climbed, he was too slow (in my estimation), so all that happened was a lazy chase for a few thosand feet. Then he leveled out. I continued my climb for a short time, since he was out of range anyway. Immediately, he rolled right, and performed a low yo-yo, looking for a quick zoom climb. I rolled opposite, so if he tried anything truly amazing, I'd at worst be 90* at his beam, and he'd still be in front of me. He dove away, gained speed, and zoomed. I was forced to follow, at a slower speed, from my opposite roll. I verrrry slowly gained, and then he repeated the whole level-out-low-yo-yo routine as I expected the AI to

No surprise, but- isn't that what he should be doing?

This fight went on like this to 14000 feet. I still hadn't pulled the trigger yet- he was always just out of range. We played this game of follow the leader about 7 times.

The next time he yo-yo'd, I dropped full flaps and climbed for all I was worth. This is about 13000 feet. The D model will still snap roll, but quick rudder will save you, I find. Even at 130 mph IAS, that spin was recoverable under full power. But, although I stalled, no spin. But now, he was a few thousand feet under me, and going in the opposite direction. He was fats, I was slow, and he could climb like all get out from his short dive.

I stood on the rudder, and winged-over to the left. He was going straight up, I was going straight down. Close call but no collision. We missed by a few feet, less than 10'

I rolled 90* left, he turned to his right- a scissors, which I refused to join, but I had to complete my turn

We passed about 100m from each other, at about 60* from each other, each going in the opposite direction. He nosed down.


I had some speed from my wing over, so I nosed up. This is about 8 thousand feet.

Another wingover to my left, and I spot him under me, 90* or so to my flight path, flying towards me. I rolled left, he flew straight and then climbed. I flicked over the rest of the way and pursued again, but not directly behind him. Time for new tactics- this was going nowhere!

He leveled out, and I didn't climb to his level (about 2K feet above me). I accelerated. I had to use full radiator door and 105% throttle max now because of my coolant temp.

I got to about 250 mph IAS and then bgan a gentle climb. He was still trying to speed away. He was about 500m away

I gradually gained altitude on him, and he gained a little speration, maybe another 100m.

When I was about 1000 feet above him (about 8500-9000 feet altitude), I began my gentle dive. He was perhaps 20* off my nose to the left, flying in the same direction as me. I kept him there because in the P-51D, you can be above your opponent and still see him through the canopy.

I went from 250 mph IAS to about 290 mph IAS fairly quickly. he was still chugging away for all he was worth.

At about 300m seperation (my convergance range), I nudged the rudder left and framed him in my sights. I pulled the trigger fo the first time in this 15 minute fight. I was still above him by about 10m

Bright flashes along the fuselage. Can't tell where I hit. I immediately go into zoom climb

I climb for 10 or 15 seconds, and roll left, looking for the enemy.

A thin smoke trail gives him away, diving for safety

The second pounce did him in- holed the wing, and he spun in


Well. Quite a good fight from my point of view!

Neither one of us wanted to dogfight. We both had the chance and both refused

He managed his energy as much as he could. I tried to do the same, while still making sure I could not get tricked into going on the defensive- I made sure I stayed behind him. But to do it, I had to give away E a few times. I tried to be stingy with it. i would even call much of the fight boring- it was like chess. What can he do with what he's got? What can I do?

he used his plane's strengths, I used mine. the difference, it seemed to me, was my ability to accelerate in a dive

Simply the best fight I've ever had in a flight sim, because this seemed at least a passable example of what might really happen in a fight between the two adversaries. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

PS new clouds look great

horseback
06-23-2005, 08:58 PM
****! That was very well written, Chuck. Wasn't it crowded with all of us in the cockpit with you?

cheers

horseback

F0_Dark_P
06-23-2005, 09:41 PM
good feeling in that story Chuck http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

and that also shows that the AI can give a nice fight

VW-IceFire
06-23-2005, 10:12 PM
AI is bloody good sometimes now. Sometimes its still kinda boneheaded but its AI...

I'm impressed. Good fight.

I used to say that the AI and pilots flying online were very similar. Both doing boneheaded things. Now I think the AI is smarter than the guys I've flown against online http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

(not all - I'm sure everyone reading this is a perfectly capable and dangerous pilot)

Old_Canuck
06-24-2005, 12:03 AM
Well written. Had no problem at all visualising the action. Thanks for taking the time.

Tallyho1961
06-24-2005, 10:16 AM
Words that are worth a thousand pictures http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Messaschnitzel
06-24-2005, 03:24 PM
Hey Chuck, now I know that I am not the only one that has a one on one fight that can last for 15 or more minutes! If I am flying against an AI opponent that has a plane that is much faster than mine, the fight can be really long.
As You stated, it is like a game of chess. The downside to these more realistic and drawn out duels is the problem of running short on fuel and returning to base with the AI on my tail, or my wife telling me that we're going to be late for a dinner engagement if I don't hurry up and turn the computer off and get going! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

JamesBlonde888
06-24-2005, 07:50 PM
I think I need a cigarette, some scotch and a 48 hour pass after reading that! Thanks Chuck.