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Catandra
01-29-2005, 08:50 PM
Question for anyone in the know...

Is there a benefit to aiming at specific parts of an opponent's plane? Or does the damage engine of PF simply total a number of hits to have a plane go down?

If I target the engine, will it quit?

If I target the cockpit, is there a greater likelihood the pilot will be killed?

If I target the wings, will the tanks catch fire?

Or...should I just spray the enemy's plane willy-nilly until I've reached the "magic" total?

Huxley_S
01-29-2005, 08:54 PM
It's *all* about where you aim. Shoot the engine, the engine will catch fire... shoot the wing off... shoot the tail off... go for the head-shot etc etc

Spray and pray more often than not will do only superficial damage.

VW-IceFire
01-29-2005, 09:59 PM
There is no hit point system so aiming at particular components are deadly important.

This may be why many will fire endlessly at a target expecting it to go down after X number of hits which actually never happens.

I usually aim for the engine or a wing. The engine for obvious reasons...on inline engines its usually the weak point where you can get a good glowing fire or lots of smoke or kill the engine outright. The wings because you reduce their manuverability, cutt the wing off, or light a fuel tank on fire. On some planes I know where the fuel tanks are and I intentionally fire at that point. It makes things easier!

This game does model the shape and size of the engine under the aircrafts skin, it models the physical presence of the pilot, and it does a bunch of other things with respect to armor, materials, and angle of bullet strike to determine damage. Its really quite remarkable.

3.JG51_BigBear
01-29-2005, 10:05 PM
PF has to have the most complex damage models in a sim next to maybe LOMAC's. Against Japanese and Soviet planes I go for the wings, against German and American AC I pull a little lead and let the rounds walk along the top of the feus. If things go as planned you got hits in the engine, cockpit and tail. Enough rounds and you're bound to hit something important.

Catandra
01-29-2005, 10:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:


This may be why many will fire endlessly at a target expecting it to go down after X number of hits which actually never happens.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heh, heh http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif That must be why I pour on the lead and some planes just keep flying on without noticing.

Thanks for the info Gents...I'll start shooting with more precision and forethought.

heywooood
01-29-2005, 10:49 PM
"Chopper?....sick BALLS!!!"


nothing like having a dog that is trained to sick specific parts of the anatomy, eh?....

...'Stand by Me' was a pretty good flick.

and yeah...you prolly should try aiming....might help a lil'

civildog
01-29-2005, 11:52 PM
A good place to shoot at is always the center of mass...all the important parts are there, whether it's a person or a plane and it's generally not moving around very much because it's in the center of the target, as opposed to wingtips and such.

I shoot at the wingroot on a fighter, inboard engine of a multi-engine plane.

Shooting at the wingroot gives you a large target that isn't moving around a lot and has lots of vulnerable things next to, or attached to it: cockpit armor tends to be in the direct rear or just in the seat so angle shots into the side and rear quarter of the cockpit are more likely to hit the pilot and controls....the engine and some fuel tanks (like the Spitfire with it's fuel tank in front of the firewall) are vulnerable at this point...and the wing is under strain in a turn at this point as well. A few dozen rounds of .50 cal, let alone a cannon, hitting this area will put some serious hurt into a fighter.

For multi-engine planes I aim for the inboard nacelle (because rounds that miss the nacelle will hit the cockpit a lot and it isnt bobbing around as much as the outboard nacelles) and pound it until it burns or breaks off. Against 2 seat fighters I do this from below o as to avoit the rear gunner, against the others I make high speed passes until I get a fire started.

What ever you do always try to keep hitting the same spot. Set your convergence for as close as you can (I use 200m for fighters, and 500m if I know I'll be shooting at bombers so I can make accurate passes farther away) so that maximum number of rounds hit as small a spot as possible.

All things being equal 8 fifties converging at 500m are making a bigger spread pattern (which is ok for a big bomber) than if they are converging at 200m. You want as tight a pattern as possible to do maximum damage in the shortest burst and time.

actionhank1786
01-30-2005, 12:09 AM
Shoot for the wheels.
That way they can't go home!

darkhorizon11
01-30-2005, 01:25 AM
Good points guys. Actually it really explains a lot about why theres so much whining. Everyone seems to think the DM are way wrong, really they're way right. I bullet in the wrong place (and not just the cockpit) can bring almost any plane down.

flyplenty
01-30-2005, 04:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CivilDog:
A good place to shoot at is always the center of mass...all the important parts are there, whether it's a person or a plane and it's generally not moving around very much because it's in the center of the target, as opposed to wingtips and such. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's what I do, but for another reason. If my aiming is a little off I may still hit something. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Jap planes go down easily anyway when hit.

I have more trouble with bombers. Since the (offline) missions I've been doing lately involve fighting both fighters and bombers, changing the convergence isn't really an option. I keep it on 300m, a reasonable compromise since I often find myself having to save my AI buddies from long distance. The fuselage of a Betty seems to be quite vulnerable compared to the other parts (at least, I've often seen them lose their tail), so I usually try to shoot them in half. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Shooting an engine works too, but that way they take a long time going down.

Extreme_One
01-30-2005, 05:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by heywooood:
"Chopper?....sick BALLS!!!"


nothing like having a dog that is trained to sick specific parts of the anatomy, eh?....

...'Stand by Me' was a pretty good flick.

and yeah...you prolly should try aiming....might help a lil' <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're right - a good film made from a very short story called "The Body" by Stephen King.

I liked the eating competion part... Barf-arama http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

FRAGAL
01-30-2005, 06:51 AM
Aye true, i always try and hit the wing roots and cockpit theres usually a nice fuel tank in the wing root and i can normally wound or kill the pilot, plus theres always a good chance of a stray round hitting the engine block.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by CivilDog:
A good place to shoot at is always the center of mass...all the important parts are there, whether it's a person or a plane and it's generally not moving around very much because it's in the center of the target, as opposed to wingtips and such.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thats usually where the most armor is though,, it's a good place to hit as you say, the pilots or usually something important, but to be sure wings are best http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif hehe can't fly with one wing

heywooood
01-30-2005, 10:42 AM
You're right - a good film made from a very short story called "The Body" by Stephen King.

I liked the eating competion part... Barf-arama http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif[/QUOTE]


EX_O - there was a better short story by S.K. in that same collection called 'Apt Pupil' about a kid that locates, by sheer accident, a former SS concentration camp commander living in his small town....have you read that one?

"what the hell is Goofy?!!" was pretty funny too

civildog
01-30-2005, 12:57 PM
In QMB last night I set up a battle against 3 Zeroes and a couple Bettys vs. 3 Corsairs. I got past the Zeros for quick pass on a Betty and walked the guns all across the wing on one side and into the fuselage.

It didn't even start to do more than leak some fuel but the entire crew but the copilot all bailed out right away! They didn't even have parachutes. And the Betty flew on!

When the fight was over it was the only enemy plane left! And it just flew off into the sunset with dead copilot (at least I assume he was since he didn't bail), like some Flying Dutchman.

FlakMagnent
01-30-2005, 01:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by heywooood:
You're right - a good film made from a very short story called "The Body" by Stephen King.

I liked the eating competion part... Barf-arama http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


EX_O - there was a better short story by S.K. in that same collection called 'Apt Pupil' about a kid that locates, by sheer accident, a former SS concentration camp commander living in his small town....have you read that one?

"what the hell _is_ Goofy?!!" was pretty funny too[/QUOTE]

Apt Pupil is a really great read if you like Stephen King novels. I love his work. He is definatley eccentric/

e5kimo
01-30-2005, 01:13 PM
i try to aim for the cockpit. both ai and human opponent will at some stange of the chase make a daring move that will expose their canopy, like the weird ai barrel rolling to loose speed. be there and pepper them. you ll kill the pilot pretty easily

SeaFireLIV
01-30-2005, 01:30 PM
This is one of the wonderful things of FB/PF that I think few new users appreciate. One of the joys of fighting an aircraft is PRECISELY because of the damage model hits. Will I take the wing off? Part of the wing? The cockpit? flaps? Rudder? Aeilorons? Pilot?Kill him? Wound him?

And every now and then you get a lead shot perfectly on an enemy plane and hit his engine hard - BOOM!

Catandra
02-01-2005, 05:46 PM
Has anyone ever successfully hit part of your opponent's ordinance?

I was aiming at the exposed torpedo of a Beaufort today but either every bullet missed, or PF just doesn't model that kind of thing realistically.

CKY_86
02-01-2005, 06:04 PM
ive recentlly been experament with bombers & aming 4 their bellys when loaded, they explode in a big fireball like when you hit feul tanks so yeah i suppose it does

gerhardius
02-01-2005, 07:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Has anyone ever successfully hit part of your opponent's ordinance? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The best loadout to hit is the 5000kg bomb on the Pe-8. Put up a bunch of them in QMB as rookies and target the belly of a Pe-8. You stand a good chance of 5 kills: the rest of the enemy section and yourself. Info on the bomb here:

http://www.hut.fi/~andres/m44/m44_5t.htm

civildog
02-01-2005, 07:13 PM
I've always noticed that planes with bombs and rockets on board tend to explode more readily. And I try to keep that in mind when going against them so I don't get too close.

JunkoIfurita
02-01-2005, 07:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>In QMB last night I set up a battle against 3 Zeroes and a couple Bettys vs. 3 Corsairs. I got past the Zeros for quick pass on a Betty and walked the guns all across the wing on one side and into the fuselage.

It didn't even start to do more than leak some fuel but the entire crew but the copilot all bailed out right away! They didn't even have parachutes. And the Betty flew on!

When the fight was over it was the only enemy plane left! And it just flew off into the sunset with dead copilot (at least I assume he was since he didn't bail), like some Flying Dutchman. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You probably knocked out the controls for the aerielons. AI pilots bail when the controls are knocked out, but because a Betty does the straight and level thing well there's no reason why it wouldn't keep flying straight until the fuel runs out.

Pretty funny to see though.

Czunik
02-02-2005, 03:21 AM
I hit bombs several times when intercepting Stukas .. they are quite tough .. usualy you can destroy engine or tail. But since you go from below (and usualy in russian aircraft with nose canon) bombs are a good try.

One more thing .. F4 needs to be aimed at this LARGE wing .. very simple, very effective .. you don't have to care about horizontal plane - just hold vertical.

SeaFireLIV
02-02-2005, 03:52 AM
Regarding attacking AI bombers with bombloads I`m always fascinated by the variety of ways a bomber will deal with you as an attacking fighter. I`ve had Stukas with full bomb loads instantly drop their ordnance when I open fire, some drop when I get real close(even if I don`t open fire) and I`ve chased and battered some Stukas who absolutely REFUSE to drop their load! I love this cos it gives the impression that you`re dealing with individuals, not robots.

Hitting a Stuka bomb load isn`t easy, but I did it once and also a Ju88; at least I assume it was the bomb load because it just completely blew apart.

actionhank1786
02-02-2005, 07:43 AM
wait wait, what was this about Lomac being better?
Any time i get hit by anything in that game, this fool is dead http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I think PF and Il-2 have the best DM of any game i've ever played.
It's like Soldier of Fortune...with planes http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

MGBurrows
02-03-2005, 05:26 PM
In fact, this is so well done an aspect of the game that when attacking targets with aromor you can see your round bouncing harmlessly off of it. I had this experience attacking an Il-2 at close range. I had run out of 20mm rounds and when I fired at the underside of the aircraft trying to hit the oil cooler some of the 7.92mm ammo was hitting the armored bathtub the pilot sits in and I could see those rounds deflecting away, spinning. It was quite realistic (not to mention a little consternating...).

icrash
02-03-2005, 08:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MGBurrows:
In fact, this is so well done an aspect of the game that when attacking targets with aromor you can see your round bouncing harmlessly off of it. I had this experience attacking an Il-2 at close range. I had run out of 20mm rounds and when I fired at the underside of the aircraft trying to hit the oil cooler some of the 7.92mm ammo was hitting the armored bathtub the pilot sits in and I could see those rounds deflecting away, spinning. It was quite realistic (not to mention a little consternating...). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is why Eric Hartman said he usually came in from below and sawed off a wing. It was the best way to down the IL2. As far as DM goes it is pretty accurate for all intents and purposes. The quickest was a one round from a P-39's cannon (no clue where it actually hit but was aiming for the engine). The plane simply exploded. I've also shot a B-17 all to hell, run out of ammo and watched it limp off. Since then, I shoot for engines and wingroots unless it is a head to head then engine/pilot. My aim is getting better, too bad my evasion skills aren't http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif.

ImpStarDuece
02-03-2005, 09:23 PM
I had great fun getting my *** handed to me on UK-Dedicated last night flying the P-39. There is something SO satisfying about hitting a small fast moving target with that elephant gun.

Much to my horror though many planes refused to go down after fuselage hits with the 37mm.

On one sortie i managed to hit 4 planes with the 37mm. 2 FW 190s, a 109 and a 110. Result was two outright kills. The first plane was a 10 degree off angle H to H against a 190. One round in the front right of the wing root and a peppering of .50cals. Result, smoke but no fire and some LARGE holes in the wing.

I extended, pulled another 190 on my tail, circle fought him (idiot) and ended up drilling 3 37mms into the top and rear of the fuselage at the top of a climb. Killed the engine and the pilot and watched the aft section come apart. Found a 110 coming up from below, inverted and chased him down, got a hit on the tail section and the left wing root with the 37mm, smoke but no flame on the port engine. Finally killed the engine with a raking of .50 cal but had to break off to avoid a booming 109.

Final hit for the run was a stern chase on a 109. Almost dead six, maybe 5 degrees off center and i ran out of .50 trying to wax him. Finally lofted a couple of 37mms at him and had the satisfaction of watching two hit and rip off the left wing at the wing root.

The point to this; well maybe there isn't one. Actually, even with something like the 37mm (especially because of its ROF) you have to aim. Hitting vulnerable spots (tail assembly, wings, engine) is much more effective than spraying the fuselage from right behind, where most German and US planes are ARMOURED tominimise damage.

civildog
02-03-2005, 09:49 PM
Being on the receiving end of all those rounds while in a shturmovik is a little unnerving, too. And it sounds like being inside a dumpster in a hailstorm.

But 'vic pilots shouldn't fall into the trap of letting that perceived invulnerability go to their heads. The armor is just around the front half of the fuselage and most versions don't have all armored metal wings. The rest is all wood.

Clever and experienced Ilyushin-killers know this weakness. A small weakness, but it's there.

civildog
02-03-2005, 10:11 PM
ImpStarDuece...

Don't worry about it if you don't obliterate a fighter with every shot form the Irondog's big gun. If you've ever been on receiving end of a hit or two form one, and survived, you'd know that the the damaged plane isn't very useful anymore. A lot gets beat up and the big holes make it kinda daunting (and stupid) to press the fight rather look for a way to escape so you can change your underwear.

In DF rooms too many get killed because they do dumb things like press a fight when they have lost the advantage due to heavy damage. Instead they should extend and live to fight again after their plane gets patched up. A few big holes in a G-6 or K-4 has an amazing way of evening up the odds. I can always tell the bad pilots from the good by how they react when my Cobra blows a couple of holes the size of a beachballs in their wing: the good ones get away as fast as they can and the bad ones press the fight and die for it.

I don't play for points so that's why I don't care if the guy vaporizes in a hit or two, or just runs home to Mama with a "Bf-109 collander" I figure a softkill is just as good as a catastrophic one.

In addition to the ancient adage: Any landing you walk away from is a good landing....there should be ...Any sortie you survive is a good sortie.

ImpStarDuece
02-03-2005, 10:36 PM
Civil,

I have found a new love and it is a snake!

The Cobra is great fun to fly and a much better plane than i ever gave it credit for. It really impressed me with its speed at low alt, climb and turn rate. On the other hand its unstable at high speeds, vulenerable to MG fire, has a wierd armament and spins like a merry-go-round.

In other words its got HEAPS of personality and i have just found something new to perfect.

Besides, I have started to give up on actually scoring kills. Anything i down is a bonus now as far as i am concerned. When there are 30 planes within a 5 km radius unless your toting a 108 or 4 Hispanos whatever you hit is more likely going to get stolen.

I made one flight last night with a 1500m hard deck. No kills but 5 or 6 damageds. First time ive done that since I used to fly the Jug in AEP. Feels more 'real' that way.

civildog
02-03-2005, 10:43 PM
By Jove I think he's got it!!

Yup, it's definitely more realistic that way.

civildog
02-03-2005, 10:49 PM
BTW: practice learning how to ride the edge of the turning stall with the combat flaps down and you'll find you can really frustrate the Luftwaffers with how tight the Cobra turns. Sometimes I'll be buffeting, graying out, and just hovering on a depart and then - Bingo!! - the unwise enemy departs in a turn stall or overshoots (and I roll out, ram the throttle up and blow him away), or the wise one is forced to turn out and recover energy. Hee Hee...they always underestimate we snake drivers with brass ones so big they ring like the bells of Notre Dame.