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View Full Version : the cloverleaf, your perception, and why cant we do it ingame



BSS_CUDA
12-26-2005, 11:12 AM
I want your perception of the Cloverleaf manouver and what it meant to the 38's ability to turn inside all LW planes at slower speeds. yes I said ALL. it is a know fact thsat the 38 was the ONLY prop drivin A/C during WW2 that could perform the manouver. what it amounted to was a virtual squaring off of the corners of your turn a 90degree turn if you may (I know this is a simplified example) which allowed you to so to speak cut the corner of your opponent and literally shortin the radius of a standard 360 turn and cut off your opponent . here is the discription of the cloverleaf as described by CC,Jordan.


The cloverleaf was a horizontal maneuver that took advantage of the P-38's
exceptionally gentle stall characteristics. It was a low-speed maneuver. The
pilot would tighten his turn until he actually stalled out, ease off and let
the plane unstall itself, then tighten back up into a stall, ease up....
Viewed from above, the pattern the airplane flew through the air looked
something like a cloverleaf, and this simile was used in teaching the maneuver.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v129/CUDA97045/cloverleaf.jpg

why cant we do this ingame? is it a limit of the game engine, or bad coding in the FM, or is Oleg like some here that would like to think it is American Propaganda and a myth? now it is fact that the 38's stall rate was VERY low spec show it at 69 MPH, in a climbing stall where most planes would depart a wing, the 38 would just flatten out and not roll over (see Zeno's 38 training vid for confirmation) granted this is level flight, but it was also know for the same in turn flight, there is no way you can turn a 38 ingame below 130 MPH without it wanting to roll. in fact the 109 will turn slower than the 38 wihtout departing a wing.


originally posted by Gibbage:

Posted Sun December 25 2005 00:15
P-38 had one of the best stall speeds of any WWII fighter except the light Japanese fighters and the F4F. Whats the dirty stall speed of a FW-190? Wink

One thing to note about the P-38's wing loading. The wings were very efficiant for high lift. They produced more lift per square foot. Also, the wings were DIRECTLY in front of the prop. The propwash passing over the wing gave more lift. Then!!! The flaps were also all directly behind the props, adding even more lift when the flaps are down. The low speed handling was amazing with the P-38 due to all these factors.

Just a little comparison

FW-190 stall = 95 full flaps
BF-190 stall = 75 full flaps
P-51 stall = 90 full flaps
P-38 stall = 69 full flaps

As you can see, the wings were VERY efficiant with the added bonus of no torque, prop wash, and flaps. Much better then aircraft 1/3 its weight!!!
right now even it level flight anthing below 90MPH and your in deep Do-Do. I would like Objective opinions. and please none of this all we want is a 38 UFO ****. this ww2 plane and this one only could do this manouver but it is not possible ingame, why?

BSS_CUDA
12-26-2005, 11:12 AM
I want your perception of the Cloverleaf manouver and what it meant to the 38's ability to turn inside all LW planes at slower speeds. yes I said ALL. it is a know fact thsat the 38 was the ONLY prop drivin A/C during WW2 that could perform the manouver. what it amounted to was a virtual squaring off of the corners of your turn a 90degree turn if you may (I know this is a simplified example) which allowed you to so to speak cut the corner of your opponent and literally shortin the radius of a standard 360 turn and cut off your opponent . here is the discription of the cloverleaf as described by CC,Jordan.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The cloverleaf was a horizontal maneuver that took advantage of the P-38's
exceptionally gentle stall characteristics. It was a low-speed maneuver. The
pilot would tighten his turn until he actually stalled out, ease off and let
the plane unstall itself, then tighten back up into a stall, ease up....
Viewed from above, the pattern the airplane flew through the air looked
something like a cloverleaf, and this simile was used in teaching the maneuver. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v129/CUDA97045/cloverleaf.jpg

why cant we do this ingame? is it a limit of the game engine, or bad coding in the FM, or is Oleg like some here that would like to think it is American Propaganda and a myth? now it is fact that the 38's stall rate was VERY low spec show it at 69 MPH, in a climbing stall where most planes would depart a wing, the 38 would just flatten out and not roll over (see Zeno's 38 training vid for confirmation) granted this is level flight, but it was also know for the same in turn flight, there is no way you can turn a 38 ingame below 130 MPH without it wanting to roll. in fact the 109 will turn slower than the 38 wihtout departing a wing.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">originally posted by Gibbage:

Posted Sun December 25 2005 00:15
P-38 had one of the best stall speeds of any WWII fighter except the light Japanese fighters and the F4F. Whats the dirty stall speed of a FW-190? Wink

One thing to note about the P-38's wing loading. The wings were very efficiant for high lift. They produced more lift per square foot. Also, the wings were DIRECTLY in front of the prop. The propwash passing over the wing gave more lift. Then!!! The flaps were also all directly behind the props, adding even more lift when the flaps are down. The low speed handling was amazing with the P-38 due to all these factors.

Just a little comparison

FW-190 stall = 95 full flaps
BF-190 stall = 75 full flaps
P-51 stall = 90 full flaps
P-38 stall = 69 full flaps

As you can see, the wings were VERY efficiant with the added bonus of no torque, prop wash, and flaps. Much better then aircraft 1/3 its weight!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
right now even it level flight anthing below 90MPH and your in deep Do-Do. I would like Objective opinions. and please none of this all we want is a 38 UFO ****. this ww2 plane and this one only could do this manouver but it is not possible ingame, why?

BSS_CUDA
12-26-2005, 11:19 AM
this is one pilts account of using cloverleaf against a KI-44,

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It was not a common maneuver, but a sort of last ditch hole card. Gerry
Johnson, ops exec of the 49FG used it to break contact with a Ki-44 he was in a
rough one-on-one with on a mission to the oil refineries of the DEI in the fall
of 1944. As he told it, he had fought the Tojo from 24,000 ft. down to the
deck, where it had latched onto his tail. He didn't dare straighten out and
try to run, because it was too close. He couldn't dive. He was forced to try
to out-turn it because he didn't have anything else to try. He started
clover-leafing and, to his great relief, the Tojo was unable to stay with him
and broke off contact, whereupon Johnson, master fighter pilot that he was,
turned the tables on the Tojo and shot him down. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Grey_Mouser67
12-26-2005, 11:29 AM
I think the move was rare because being that slow meant you, like the pilot account, got into a bad situation or got too aggressive in attack...being slow is a bad thing, but the Lightning could do it as good as any.

I think the main reasons for no historical cloverleaf are threefold...1) torque modelling...while improved, single engined fighters at high power output and in low speed stall situations don't torque roll like they did in real life. 2) Stall modelling. Finally the Lightning is approaching its real stall characteristics which is a simple mush exept when external stores were between the nacelles...this cause issued for the lightning. In order to cloverleaf, the Lightning must be controllable in the stall and not flip over...it is close, but so are some single engined fighters. 3) and i belive most importantly, the stall speeds of the Lightning and some of its contemporary enemies are off...the lightnings stall speed should be lower and a couple of its main opponents should be higher...along with the cloverleaf was the slow speed spiral climb which is not effective for the lightning without a significant energy advantage to begin with....fix this and tune the stall just a little bit and we aught to be able to cloverleaf....and spiral climb too...the J model climb rate might need adjusting too for correct cloverleav in a semi vertical plane.

BSS_CUDA
12-26-2005, 11:44 AM
Ya I forgot about the slow spiral climb, another weapon which the 38 ingame cannot perform. I dont think it would take much to get this plane FM accurate, we have come so far since its inception. definatelly the climb rate is off, that has been proven, that, with IF POSSIBLE the correct stall characteristics and compressibility being wrong and this would be a deadly warbird. I would LOVE to be able to do the cloverleaf, and I agree its a last ditch thing as was pointed out by Gerry Johnson of the 49th FG

VF-29_Sandman
12-26-2005, 06:22 PM
another thing that is off and this is in regards to climb rate; the climb speed. in the training vid, they recommended 180 indicated. if the 38 in the game would climb like it should per manual, then the typical takeoff in game at 3000 rpm should make the 38 even faster in climb rate with the extra rpm's pulling in even more air.

another thing this bird cant seem to be able to do and what would be the biggest key in pulling off a cloverleaf...or aborting a cloverleaf if needed, the true acceleration the p-38 in rl had. pilots said that throttling up and releasing the brakes was like gettin a kick in the a$$. stall modeling seems to be off. seems to me, most pf birds, once they stall, recovery is difficult if not impossible.