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PLANEMAD
05-17-2007, 07:11 AM
hi did the rear gunners in the bf110s j87s ju88s he111s shot down many planes in real life in ww2 with there mg 15s guns was there any aces? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

PLANEMAD
05-17-2007, 07:11 AM
hi did the rear gunners in the bf110s j87s ju88s he111s shot down many planes in real life in ww2 with there mg 15s guns was there any aces? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

horseback
05-17-2007, 07:54 AM
No. Some of them thought they shot down a number of enemy aircraft, but in 99.9% of the cases, they were wrong. Even the Bf 110 or Stuka gunners, with their dual gun setups, were still shooting rifle caliber bullets from a VERY unstable platform at a small fast moving target. Even if they got hits, it was sheer luck if they actually sufficiently damaged a fighter that they were aiming at to the point that it had to retire.

The most effective gunners of the war were probably in the US heavy bombers, and they were able to provide mutual support to each other by flying in close formations, unlike most other AF's daylight bombing units. However, they were more intimidating than effective, and strategic bombing was not possible without effective fighter escort.

The primary function of aircraft gunners was not to shoot fighters down, it was to persuade them to please go somewhere else.

cheers

horseback

Bearcat99
05-17-2007, 08:00 AM
They certainly werent as good as the ones in here.. thats for sure... I am not complaiuning. Come to think of it that would be a good feature for SoW... being able to program individual skill levels for multi crewed AC... even if it were just two... say pilot & gunner(s).

EiZ0N
05-17-2007, 08:40 AM
The gunners in IL2 do seem a bit good.

mynameisroland
05-17-2007, 08:58 AM
PLANEMAD, try and attack a B 25 if you think Axis gunners are overmoddelled.

Yes and I know .50 cal rounds can destroy Tigers and sink destroyers but the accuracy of AI gunners in IL2 is b0ll0cks.

Philipscdrw
05-17-2007, 09:18 AM
If you can aim a P47 at a Tiger long enough to destroy it with .50s, without crashing into a tree, then you've deserved the kill IMO...

DKoor
05-17-2007, 09:46 AM
Saburo Sakai got owned by SBD rear gunner IIRC
Barely survived got 7,62 thru skull

Yellow_Sub
05-17-2007, 09:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Come to think of it that would be a good feature for SoW... being able to program individual skill levels for multi crewed AC... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oleg already stated that this will be possible in SoW:BoB.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Aviaforum: AI in BOB: seeing behind, accuracy of gunnery, etc€¦.

O.M.: AI significantly changed and will use a lot more resources than it does now. Visibility from AI perspective is honest even now, it just aces look behind them a lot more often then rookies. Clouds are not see thru for AI and virtual pilots. Accuracy of shooting will depend on g-forces. During active maneuvering accuracy will be reduced and under effect of great forces will not be possible at all. Besides, in BOB crew members will have different skills, meaning pilot could be an ace, but gunners rookies and so on. Difference will be drastic, for rookies we model panic, that is when they shoot all over the place. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Airmail109
05-17-2007, 10:00 AM
A Lancaster rear gunner got 4 kills and one probable in a single mission once

They were Bf110s and Bf109s climbing up to the Lancaster from dead six

The lancasters rear turret was a pretty damn good gun platform, compared to that of the B17s

Dtools4fools
05-17-2007, 10:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Saburo Sakai got owned by SBD rear gunner IIRC
Barely survived got 7,62 thru skull </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Indeed.
But you have to put it into it's accurarte context:

- Saburo spottet 8 planes; two flights of 4.
- He went for the 4 planes on the right
- their formation tightened, he thought that to be perfect..
- BECAUSE he thought them to be WILDCATS, thightening the formation was a sign to him that he was not spotted yet...he wanted to get at least two in a single firing pass!
- He closed in to 60 yards....
- now he realizes that the planes are bigger, have turrets..Avengers which he had never encountered before...


So we have 4 planes with 4 0,50cal gunners in turrets opening up at a single Zero which approached slow and steady at a range of 60 yards...

They got a hit on the Zero pilot himself, wounding him seriously.
But they FAILED to shoot down the Zero, the plane made the very long flight back to its home base...

So we got a fragile Zero flying like a sitting duck up to 60yrds of range of at least four 0,50cal gunners - and they fail to even seriously damage the Zero...

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Do that in IL-2...

But I think there has been enough complaining about this and Oleg's team will take a look at this problem in BoB... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
****
-

horseback
05-17-2007, 10:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
Saburo Sakai got owned by SBD rear gunner IIRC
Barely survived got 7,62 thru skull </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Sakai tried attacking a formation of either SBDs or TBFs (I think his memoirs say TBFs, although the time/place suggests that it was a flight of 3-4 SBDs). Either way, he got whacked from flying through the fire of several gunners, all pre-war trained according to the USN's exacting standards (and it was still a lucky shot, IMO).

cheers

horseback

Jaws2002
05-17-2007, 10:12 AM
I read somwhere about a Ju88 gunner that shot 3 russian fighters that wer climbing to them in one mission. I think two were Migs.

Dtools4fools
05-17-2007, 10:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">A Lancaster rear gunner got 4 kills and one probable in a single mission once </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


That's not the norm.

One exeptional case.

Does not say much about efficience of gunners overall. In the book 'reargunner' a Halifax rear gunner describes a 109 attack from dead 6. He's firing at 109, 109 firing at Halifax same time hits all over tail section and rear gunner is wondering why he's not hit, why he's still alive. 109 closing in more and more. Finally after all the shootin he hits the 109 and it goes down in a dive trailing smoke.

So he was shooting for quite a while without hitting the 109 with his 4-gun turret...

For every example of how well a gunner did (or thought he did, how did they decide to confirm those '4 kills'?) there can be found one where the gunner performed not well.

So what's important is the overall efficiency of those gunners, not exeptional stories of success- or failure.

How to figure that out? Read as many reports of gunners and fighter pilots attacking bombers with gunners and try to judge which situations were exeptional and which are rather 'the norm'. And it's the 'norm' we need...

Heck, there was this Blenheim who damaged two Oscars and forced them to return to base. Plus shot down ace flight leader in another Oscar. All during a short period of time in one single mission.
By a rear gunner who had first time encountered enemy planes!!!

Can happen, but sure is not the 'norm'...

*****

AVG_WarHawk
05-17-2007, 10:24 AM
It's always been difficult in this sim to get realistic fighter cover. Keeping gunners accuracy unrealistically high is a necessity.

Jaws2002
05-17-2007, 10:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PLANEMAD:
hi did the rear gunners in the bf110s j87s ju88s he111s shot down many planes in real life in ww2 with there mg 15s guns was there any aces? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

BTW. the german bombers did not have Mg-15's only. The Dual MG-81z was a different animal. A lot more potent with very high rate of fire.
Late in the war they had a lot of 13mm MG's and even 20mm cannons installed in their bombers.

The Romanian ace Toma Lucian was shot down and killed by a JU-188 gunner.

FritzGryphon
05-17-2007, 11:26 AM
I don't recall how many, but Rudel's gunner was a multi-scorer.

I think the supposed lack of gunner aces is due more to oportunities and claiming problems. Tail gunners do not have any initiative in seeking out the enemy, nor can they press an attack once the enemy has broken off.

They're also less likely to survive combat that fighter pilots. Fighter pilots are free to engage the enemy from safety, whereas gunners can only engage the enemy if they themselves are under attack. I'm sure most gunners didn't want to be aces!

Planes with decent rear-firing armament had good kill records. The Defiant was successful until the Luftwaffe changed their tactics.

Plelv44_Mangrov
05-17-2007, 12:08 PM
It's not the tool, but the man behind it... two Finnish gunners (Sergeant V. Msky and corporal Y. Hammaren) had two kills each with 7,7mm / .303 Browning. All kills were made in a Blenheim flying alone when the enemy fighter attacked.

All these kills are 100% confirmed.

Bearcat99
05-17-2007, 01:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Yellow_Sub:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Come to think of it that would be a good feature for SoW... being able to program individual skill levels for multi crewed AC... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oleg already stated that this will be possible in SoW:BoB.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Aviaforum: AI in BOB: seeing behind, accuracy of gunnery, etc€¦.

O.M.: AI significantly changed and will use a lot more resources than it does now. Visibility from AI perspective is honest even now, it just aces look behind them a lot more often then rookies. Clouds are not see thru for AI and virtual pilots. Accuracy of shooting will depend on g-forces. During active maneuvering accuracy will be reduced and under effect of great forces will not be possible at all. Besides, in BOB crew members will have different skills, meaning pilot could be an ace, but gunners rookies and so on. Difference will be drastic, for rookies we model panic, that is when they shoot all over the place. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is cool!! I forgot about that.... I have no doubt that BoB will be fantastic...

DmdSeeker
05-17-2007, 03:11 PM
http://www.n461.com/praa_sands.html

Coastal command gunners could have it rough too.

Noz4r2_646
05-17-2007, 05:51 PM
List of top scoring RAF/Commonwealth airgunners.

http://aces.safarikovi.org/victories/ww2-commonwealth-gunner.html

Top scoring US airgunners.

http://aces.safarikovi.org/victories/usa-gunner.html

Zeus-cat
05-17-2007, 06:12 PM
How come no one ever complains about shooting down too many bombers in a single mission? I know pilots shot down multiple bombers in a single mission in real life, but it had to be quite rare, yet we do it routinely in this game.

horseback
05-17-2007, 06:57 PM
Flying in WWII was physically much more demanding than sitting in front of a computer monitor, and gunnery was a good bit more inexact, especially at high altitude sucking canned oxygen; guns vibrated in their mounts, the aircraft bounced and jittered in each others' slipstream, and there had to be a certain amount of tension for most guys with that whole 'kill or be killed' thing...

The simple fact is that it was rare for a fighter to follow through on his attack after he felt his aircraft taking hits the way they do in-game (especially if the gunners were hitting his engine/cockpit with anything like the effectiveness of AI gunners).

cheers

horseback

SahintheFalcon
05-17-2007, 07:21 PM
is it just me or do the AI gunners not shoot in multiplayer (as in the rear gunner of your IL-2, BF-110, etc.)? It seems to me that you have to switch positions to shoot the gun.

J.M.LLOYD
05-18-2007, 02:14 AM
I am sure I did read somewhere that the B17 Flying Fortress was resposible for shooting down more German fighters over Europe than any other combat aircraft?

tigertalon
05-18-2007, 02:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SahintheFalcon:
is it just me or do the AI gunners not shoot in multiplayer (as in the rear gunner of your IL-2, BF-110, etc.)? It seems to me that you have to switch positions to shoot the gun. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have to bind a key for 'autopilot automation' or something like that - that fixes the problem.

Blutarski2004
05-18-2007, 06:04 AM
..... I recommend Chaz Bowyer's book "Guns in the Sky: the Air Gunners of WW2".

AVG_WarHawk
05-18-2007, 03:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Zeus-cat:
How come no one ever complains about shooting down too many bombers in a single mission? I know pilots shot down multiple bombers in a single mission in real life, but it had to be quite rare, yet we do it routinely in this game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Precisely! what my earlier comment referred to. You rarely or never get anything near realistic fighter cover in this sim. Oleg has toned down the gunners already from what they were when Forgotten Battles was first released.

NagaSadow84
05-18-2007, 03:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FritzGryphon:
I don't recall how many, but Rudel's gunner was a multi-scorer.

I think the supposed lack of gunner aces is due more to oportunities and claiming problems. Tail gunners do not have any initiative in seeking out the enemy, nor can they press an attack once the enemy has broken off.

They're also less likely to survive combat that fighter pilots. Fighter pilots are free to engage the enemy from safety, whereas gunners can only engage the enemy if they themselves are under attack. I'm sure most gunners didn't want to be aces!

Planes with decent rear-firing armament had good kill records. The Defiant was successful until the Luftwaffe changed their tactics. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

IIRC One of Erwin Henstchel's (Rudels Gunner) kills was a Soviet ace.

No, I was wrong. Rudels Gunner at that time was Ernst Gadermann and his victim Lev Shestakov.