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Mjollnir111675
10-30-2004, 08:24 AM
S! ALL,

I finally got my copy of P.F. At my local Hastings for those who haven't found one yet.But I have to say I am a little disappointed.
All this worry bout the stinkin water,which in my mind I find not near as visually stunning as Far Cry which,by the way runs great on most systems. But I am not caring bout the water unless I can fly rescue missions to pick up downed pilots in a Catalina and get points for it.But being as the air is where this sim is focused at I never listened to the gripes bout it.For I would like to stay in the sky not the water!! So...where are the various cloud types? cumulo stratus,nimbus etc. etc....I believe that would be more visually pleasant than the "WATER" which I so vainly try to stay away from!!But I guess to some the whole "Hey man,did you see that perfect water I crashed into" **** has found its importance somewhere along the way!!
I do love the game but why on earth would a game developer leave IMPORTANT commands out to be user defined? There should be commands that are NO-BRAINERS to include. Hmmm, which ones you say? Well, lets see,
a)chocks
b)arrestor hook(after all there are carriers and this should be standard,would keep the "how come I cant move on deck" thread from appearing
c)airbrake
d)manual gear control(hey if your gonna put in those planes give us a stock key press)
oh yeah and the oh so important non alterable "rotate view" Why in Hades is that not user definable?I have this dang x-45 and I have to go against the whole HOTAS idea and fumble for me mouse when the action gets thick!!!
these are just a few.Yes and you could argue that"well they left it like that for your convenience!!"But to that I say whats so dam3d convenient about having to map keys? So then tell me oh-so argumentative one what would be the problem with assigning it a key to begin with? I think I would like to try what Oleg and his team use.Why not include the developers keysets surely they are better than none at all no? They built it so they know the most efficient keysets right? Now to all of you il-2 vets this may seem like a rant,gripe,b1t<h,moan whatever you decide to label it and you may also think that this isn't a big deal either but I know of atleast 3 ppl who gave up on the series because of the standard keyset(or lack thereof).
Aside from the obvious issues like carriers in mp not moving.Hey this could've been implemented if so much energy wasn't wasted on water!! What a total loss of direction!! If it was a naval sim I could see the logic of perfect water but why...???Meanwhile the clouds are the same everywhere you fly!! Nope I struggle to get my dive bomber with 2 250 lb.ers off the deck in m.p. but hey look at that water wouldja?!?!? Yeah well your job is complete because to take off fully armed you WILL see that Darwin d@mn3d perfect water!! And alot too!! Wouldve rather seen massive fleets displayed than this "perfect Water". Ya say ya want and need perfect water? Then wait for Silent hunter3 or PT Boats:Knights of the Sea. Sims that actually have the need for perfect water.Perfect water in a flight sim(R.O.T.F.L.M.A.O.!!!) Thats like needing perfect grass and mountains in a sub sim!!! I love these games alot but it makes me wonder sometimes where the common sense has gone to.
Oh and one more thing tell Ubi they can keep their big awkward non protecting disc case to themselves!! Disc touching each other and the possibility of scratching!!Or is that Ubis way of creating constant customers?I have already traded that for a 2 disc dvd case which the cover fits nicely into.
And a freakin manual thats worth its weight!!Whatever happened to a big manual I can take to the head with me and read and actually learn something from?

Oh and by the way I have already prepared for damage control!! I have donned my asbestos flame proof suit so flame away!!

"Firemen and D.c.men man your stations!!
"Sir,we are at our stations!! Lots of damage sir!!But look at that perfect water!!!"
"Good Son,Get the pumps goin and the hoses we're gonna need it for the following flames!!"
"Aye,Aye sir!!!"

Mjollnir

"I am Mjollnir and I approve this message"

VOL_Mountain
10-30-2004, 08:36 AM
I like the water effects and am still experimenting with ATI driver versions, conf.ini and video card settings.

I'm using a 9500 pro, Omega v4.7 drivers with perfect settings in game that provides ~35 fps with 36 aircraft in coop missions. Game is very stable even though the "Read Me" file does not recommend this driver. I have a copy of the Cat 4.1's that is recommended so later I'll give this a try.

So far, the water looks best (to me at least) with water=0 in the conf file. Others (a pilot wth 9600) have given different reports that water looked fine with water=3 but then again, not sure what drivers were used.

Mjollnir111675
10-30-2004, 09:19 AM
S!,

Im not complaining that the water looks like cr@p or anything just that there seems to be WAY TOO much focus on it rather than the obvious issues that should be addressed. Like massive fleets,Movement of carriers in mp and other subtle issues.I can just imagine if less emphasis was plced on the d@m3d water maybe the obvious may have been addressed. No prop trails(or whatever they call that contrail looking spiral) when launching from a carrier wouldve been more welcome to me.Or how about a wind value assigned to the deck of the carriers while in m.p.?that way you still get the benefit of a headwind and thus PROPER and FULL loadouts!!damage for the ships would be cool with fires on going.How could such an obvious need be overlooked?OH YEAH thats right,THE WATER!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif
Such an awesome game tainted by the over emphasis of an object which in the end doesnt lend itself in no way to the game but for asthetics.
I would love to have seen flight deck crew running,D.C.men and firemen with hoses putting out fires and L.S.O.'s!!And crash barriers for damaged planes coming in would've been a nice touch!! Thw water is fine for me but is definately not something I'm gonna tweak for!!

Mjollnir

actionhank1786
10-30-2004, 09:24 AM
why they didnt make them "Stock" buttons is beyond me...but it's not the end of the world that you have to spend 5 minutes max, scrolling through a list and assigning them. Besides everyone wants different settings.
So they would most likely be reassigned anyways.

Mjollnir111675
10-30-2004, 09:43 AM
S!,

Hank please dont think that its the end of the world for me.Its not and I will never give up this sim series but would including the keysets be all that difficult? And I understand that even I would most prob change them but c'mon man there are too many that are not defined!!I could see a few that are user specific but there are some that should be given a default!!PERIOD!!!There would be a worldwide p.c. game coup if all games were shipped like this!!!

BlueShark3:"lower your tail hook Mjollnir!!!"
Mjollnir:"Oh **** I forgot to map that one!!"
Blueshark3:"Nice knowin ya!!"
Mjollnir:"Just tell me mom I was a dumbarse and didnt check my key command center in my cockpit before I took off!!"
BlueShark3:"Will do!Does that mean I can have your stash of rum you've been hiding?"
Mjollnir:"SIC"

Mjollnir

Equilizer
10-30-2004, 09:48 AM
AKMj?

Deathreaper666
10-30-2004, 09:55 AM
You are all wet. You don't need to trade anything everything is adjustable. Don't like perfect water turn it off. You want bigger better more massive fleets. There is something that shipped with the game called the full mission builder. Learn how to use it and create whatever sized fleet of mission "you" want.

Carriers do move in multiplay coops. DF is a different story and Oleg already explain why this is the case 100 times. You whinning about undefined keys is a f---ing joke. The binds are set by the user and any "new" functions need to come undefined. Why? Because we already have many functions that are user defined after a year and a half of FB/AEP, it would not be good to ship the game with presets for say the chocks, because the binds "they" choose might already be assigned to something else in "our" menus and binding the chocks to say my already defined eject button would have been stupid and much worse.

You did say you liked the game, I suggest spending more time reading the pdf on the CD and actually getting into the meat of things instead of whinning that you have white bbread on your sandwich instead of wheat. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

Mjollnir111675
10-30-2004, 10:18 AM
HA!!

Death you have missed almost everything I have said!!Never said I didnt like perfect water ya Dumb ****!!Just wondering why everyone is worrying so much about it.Never knew that water had such an effect on the control surfaces of a plane!!
yes I was talking of D.F.! How about a wind value for the flight deck?
New functions huh? Yeah airbrake new?? All the mixture settings new? Magnetos,supercharger new?
and this wasnt a whine ya ****!! It was question!! Ok so lemme get this straight because you have an ejection seat conflict thats reason for new ppl coming to this sim to be in flight look for a command only for it to tell them that it has to be user defined?Then tell me this why have a key card then?Oh thats right,this game is only for ppl who have been playing it since Il-2 right?C'mon lemme hear more of that "wisdom"!!Since you have so much to go round!!! Maybe you should remove your mouth,tongue and lips from someones **** just long enough so you can see that no matter how you may flame someone you will not be getting any freebies or goodies from 1c/Oleg or anyone else!!
And for your abstract B.S. about sandwiches,go get something to eat if food has to makes it way into a flight sim post!! Now YOU go eat a S[-]1T sandwich ya fool!!! And its funny you talk of Meat!!Missin some in your "BUNS"? Ya rainbow flyer!!


Mjollnir

Deathreaper666
10-30-2004, 10:41 AM
A little thin skinned I see yes. What happened to the flame suit that you donned? Not working huh? LOL! Give me a quarter and I'll call someone that cares. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

Fresshness
10-30-2004, 10:43 AM
Now to think of it I agree.

For a flightsim focussing on getting the water a 'perfect' quality and not the clouds like Mjollnir said, is beyond me.

As far as I can see, there are like 5 different kinds of water;

1) non-perfect
2) perfect, water=0
3) perfect, water=1
4) perfect, water=2
5) perfect, water=3

isn't that a little overkill considering there is only 1 type of cloud ? I mean, Mjollnir is right. We pass (like to) our time in the skies, not in the water. (Ok, except if you fly a A6M2-N)

BuzzU
10-30-2004, 11:11 AM
I think non perfect water looks stupid. I can't even judge where the surface is.

I think water is very important in PF. The only time I don't see the water is when i'm climbing.

Mjollnir111675
10-30-2004, 11:19 AM
INCOMING!!!!


Cant see the deck huh?
One word:

INSTRUMENTS!!!!!


Mjollnir

BuzzU
10-30-2004, 11:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mjollnir111675:
INCOMING!!!!


Cant see the deck huh?
One word:

INSTRUMENTS!!!!!


Mjollnir <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who said anything about landing? I'm talking about a DF over the water. I also have very bad vision. I'd say the worse of anybody on this forum. Perfect helps me see the surface much better, so it's very important to me. It never was in FB/AEP because i'd avoid the water as much as possible. You really can't do that in PF.

Btw..I can't read the instruments unless I zoom in. I do that in normal flying, but it's kind of hard in a fight. I don't use the speedbar.

Fresshness
10-30-2004, 11:40 AM
BuzzU, I understand where you are coming from so to speak.

Just forget for a moment ALL about IL2 (I know it's hard, but bear with me for a sec), and you find out that there's this very cool flightsim comming up. But somewhere you read that there are 5 different kinds of water implemented, but only 1 type of cloud.

Wouldn't you agree that it's somewhat strange for a flight-sim?

NegativeGee
10-30-2004, 11:50 AM
I see someone fixed your text BuzzU http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I have to admit, "Corsair lost the war" was a bit of a giggle mind http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

BuzzU
10-30-2004, 11:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fresshness:
BuzzU, I understand where you are coming from so to speak.

Just forget for a moment ALL about IL2 (I know it's hard, but bear with me for a sec), and you find out that there's this very cool flightsim comming up. But somewhere you read that there are 5 different kinds of water implemented, but only 1 type of cloud.

Wouldn't you agree that it's somewhat strange for a flight-sim? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not saying we couldn't use better clouds, but i'm just saying water is very important in PF and that's why we see so much posted about it.

btw..We do have options for different levels of clouds, and you don't even have to edit the confg. file to change them..http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Jamido
10-30-2004, 12:16 PM
Hi all, well i just say that the game is totally uncompleted. It's very unfortunate that the money goes over a good game. And the team says that the game will not fit in the discs. Why did they not publish it on dvd or 3 roms. I think the only real reason is that the game was not ready but they published it because of the christmas is coming, no matter if it was uncomplete.

Fresshness
10-30-2004, 12:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jamido:
Hi all, well i just say that the game is totally uncompleted. It's very unfortunate that the money goes over a good game. And the team says that the game will not fit in the discs. Why did they not publish it on dvd or 3 roms. I think the only real reason is that the game was not ready but they published it because of the christmas is coming, no matter if it was uncomplete. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


yes, I agree, there is no excuse to include a 3rd CD or even a 4th one.

BSR_RuGGBuTT
10-30-2004, 12:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jamido:
the game was not ready but they published it because of the christmas is coming, no matter if it was uncomplete. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And you have just described UBI's modus operandi. This happened last year w/Lock On. It's too bad such a good title has to be "messed with" by a publisher like this. I don't think I'll be purchasing any more UBI products.

Fresshness
10-30-2004, 01:07 PM
Smell the java! UBI is far from the only publisher doing this kind of unacceptable business.

I remember same things happening with EA; and that's the number 1 publisher IMHO. So it is setting the 'standards' or 'modus operandi' of the sector.

Don't think they are going to change their strategy. The internet in some way has been a curse in disguise as companies like UBI and others are using the existance of the internet as an excuse to produce less quality on time. "Hey, don't sweat, it'll be in the next patch!".

I can only dream of the times in which games weren't in this kind of state upon release; e.g.: almost never were patches needed to fix a bug or add a promised feature the released version already should have.

Nuff ranting http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Snootles
10-30-2004, 01:19 PM
I did hear a vastly improved weather/cloud system was being worked on for another patch. Yes, PF seems rather incomplete. But if it were all up to 1C, they'd probably rather spend another year completing the game and doing it right, than being led around by the nose by Ubi into releasing it first holiday season that comes around.

Look on the bright side!!! When Strike Fighters Project 1 was released, stalls and anti-aircraft fire of any kind didn't even exist! And even they managed to fix that eventually.

Jamido
10-31-2004, 07:28 AM
But even with the bugs the game is still great http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif Strange thou that they approved to remove the Silent Hunter III publishing for few months forward but not the PF

Alchemix
10-31-2004, 11:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mjollnir111675:
S!,

Im not complaining that the water looks like cr@p or anything just that there seems to be WAY TOO much focus on it rather than the obvious issues that should be addressed. Like massive fleets,Movement of carriers in mp and other subtle issues.I can just imagine if less emphasis was plced on the d@m3d water maybe the obvious may have been addressed. No prop trails(or whatever they call that contrail looking spiral) when launching from a carrier wouldve been more welcome to me.Or how about a wind value assigned to the deck of the carriers while in m.p.?that way you still get the benefit of a headwind and thus PROPER and FULL loadouts!!damage for the ships would be cool with fires on going.How could such an obvious need be overlooked?OH YEAH thats right,THE WATER!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif
Such an awesome game tainted by the over emphasis of an object which in the end doesnt lend itself in no way to the game but for asthetics.
I would love to have seen flight deck crew running,D.C.men and firemen with hoses putting out fires and L.S.O.'s!!And crash barriers for damaged planes coming in would've been a nice touch!! Thw water is fine for me but is definately not something I'm gonna tweak for!!

Mjollnir <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I'll second that. It does seem strange that this time around the emphasis is on perfect water. I was quite happy with FB's water and didn't really see a need to improve that. Heck, if it hadn't changed from IL2 to FB I would have probably been happy with that too. What I'd like to see would be perfect clouds. Seems perfectly natural to to me that a flight sim would push the advances of clouds and weather effects which have a direct impact on how your plane handles in a fight or dictates battle tactics. Clouds and the air I fly through... water I crash into at the end of my fight. Maybe if I enjoyed hanging around after I crash and watched the circling fly-by of my wreak, I'd be more into the perfect water - but I crash and hit that refly, I don't stick around to do the backstroke.

I also second the idea about better damage modeling for land targets. Kinda sucks to take the time to wack a ship only to see it kinda puff and sink 10 feet to the 'mysterious' sandbar. Or destroy a airfield building and watch it kinda 'pop' from the good model to the damaged model.

So much attention given to things like perfect water I guess brings in newbies from the Doom3 - Farcry crowd and gets the reviewers attention at the E3 shows. Guess it's easier to sell glitzy water effects to people who have the attention span of hamsters than it is to sell anything else. Old sales motto.... SSS 'shiney stuff sells'.

I do love the game though. Nothing else compares or even comes close to it. You can tell it's made with a love of the game too... I guess every now and then some of that gets lost in the translation of making something marketable.

69th_Alchemist

Alchemix
10-31-2004, 12:09 PM
....a follow up to my original post after reading through this entire thread.

Deathreaper lighten up. Other people's opinions are as just as good as any you might have. No need to be rude about. The orignal poster certainly wasn't being rude or immature like you. Grow up and quit trying to troll with the grain - that's just as bad as a regular troll.

I see BuzzU's point about non-perfect water being hard to judge. Now that I recall I think I had that same problem in the original IL2 depending on the time of day. Sure the water needs some texture but I think too that atmosperic effects can convey alot about distance too. Right now something out at 5km is at the same intensity in terms of tone and saturation as something that's 5 feet in front of you. Climb up to 5000' and the water is the same blue and same tone as if you were at sea level - only the horizon arc changes and the details are smaller. I know if I were to paint distance I know what it would look like, maybe they need to program painting 'smarts' into the engine. I have the same problem trying to see markings on planes and is the reason I don't fly full real. Nothing is worse than shooting your buddy because you couldn't make something out that you know you'd be able to see in the real world.

Don't know how key settings out of the box got into here when the topic was water... but didn't anyone stop to think that maybe we should have just been given the option to either install with keys already setup for the first time players or the continue the install with our already setup key configs? Would have been easy. I mean they gave the option to install a whole new addon or as a stand alone. Installing a fresh key config or porting over a already established key config from an .ini file would be a walk in the park. Both points made are valid - new users should have the important basic keys already set up so they don't get discouraged and the vets shouldn't have to spend 10-20 remapping their keys back to the way they were just for 4 new commands. Personally, I have a split keys/stick setup and ya it would be a pain to go through and remap the keys and make sure they map back to my x45 correctly for those mapped but rarely used commands like airbrakes.

People should get off the incomplete bandwagon. PF is complete. It may have a quirk or bug here and there that needs to be smoothed out. I play many games and that's everyone's argument over-and-over again just because something doesn't run how they expect it to or doesn't run on their machine they way they had hoped. Strike Fighters WAS incomplete where features sold and listed weren't in the boxed version. Enigma Rising Tide WAS incomplete - and I'm still waiting for the multiplayer that was sold & promised almost a year ago.... but Silent Hunter 3 will fix that problem right up. Just because you get a stutter or your frame rate dip below 5000 fps, or a gun seems underpowered to you etc etc yadda yadda (insert usual rants here) does not make a game incomplete. Oversights yes, unforseen issues yes, a bug here and there yes, a slow down because they push the engine a bit too hard for some systems yes... but incomplete NO. Maybe some people need to stick to Pac Man.

69th_Alchemist

Deckard71
10-31-2004, 12:33 PM
Sorry, Alchemix, but I'll have to disagree with you on a couple of points.

Pacific Fighters ISN'T complete, even if compared with your own examples of an incomplete game. Yoy say STrike Fighters wasn't comlete becuase it had features missing that it was advertised as having. Would that be at all like the G4M that is listed on the box as flyable, but not actually in the game yet? Or the F2-A2? Or the Beaufighter campaign that hasn't been playtested to reveal the incorrect wypoint placements on all the missions?

I can live with bugs, bugs get fixed by supportive developers. This game has major flaws due to a rushed release. I'm sure I'm not wrong in saying that any of us would have been happy to wait until the new year for a mighty fine version with less major buggage then what we ahve now. It would've put less pressure on Oleg and his team and we STILL would've bought it in our droves!

Ubi have yet relasied that we area LOYAL fan-base and until they do poor games will continue to get released by greedy publishers rather than great games being released when they're good and ready.

Alchemix
10-31-2004, 02:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Deckard71:
Sorry, Alchemix, but I'll have to disagree with you on a couple of points.

Pacific Fighters ISN'T complete, even if compared with your own examples of an incomplete game. Yoy say STrike Fighters wasn't comlete becuase it had features missing that it was advertised as having. Would that be at all like the G4M that is listed on the box as flyable, but not actually in the game yet? Or the F2-A2? Or the Beaufighter campaign that hasn't been playtested to reveal the incorrect wypoint placements on all the missions?

I can live with bugs, bugs get fixed by supportive developers. This game has major flaws due to a rushed release. I'm sure I'm not wrong in saying that any of us would have been happy to wait until the new year for a mighty fine version with less major buggage then what we ahve now. It would've put less pressure on Oleg and his team and we STILL would've bought it in our droves!

Ubi have yet relasied that we area LOYAL fan-base and until they do poor games will continue to get released by greedy publishers rather than great games being released when they're good and ready. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok. You can disagree but really does one or 2 missing planes out of 100 planes, or a script error in 1 of the campaigns equal unfinished? I mean unfinished as in a complete lack of something that drastically alters or hinders gameplay like say a missing plane that if you pick it would cause an immediate crash to desktop. Or how about a game that is unplayable for 50% of it's users because only parts of it were finished and then just barebone code or driver support was added in because release time was approaching. If anyone ever played Klingon Academy then you'd know unfinished... just the major playable components were put in to make it work enough to get some sales then they fired the development team. It was still a fun game but it was missing 50% of the advertised game....well 50% might be harsh but major features were missing along with the bugfest for features that were there.

Enigma Rising Tide. Multiplayer stamped right on the box as a major feature. Surprise!! not there till you read up on it afterwards. Developers said it was going to be released last spring as an addon patch. Still waiting.

I think if there's a missing plane or a script error then it you can give them the benifit of the doubt. Box art, manuals, ads are all printed before the deadline rolls around. So a plane doesn't make it in. I don't think that's ranking anywhere near having something like advertised multiplay missing or constant CTD because of poor/rushed QA. I'd be able to see complaining about a missing advertisted plane or 2 if you had a 4 plane set - don't think Janes Falcon would have gotten very far if it had actually been missing the Falcon.

Think my point is that we got alot in the whole IL2 series and we just got a whole stack of new goodies to play with and new improvements in PF. Out of the box everything works (a few people having some issues.. yes) and many are having fun with it. I just don't see how people can slap down the 'incomplete' and 'unfinished' labels and lump it in with a whole line of stinkers that have come out, when this game as it stands now is cherished/admired as a work of art by many, runs extremely well, has a ton of content and is well supported.

Can't be all that bad, you're playing it?

I just see most complaints around here as gripes just because someone didn't get something their way. Some gripes sure may be actual issues or bugs but they do get fixed or acknowledged...sure not everything is technically possible. But unfinished I just don't see it. Sorry.

69th_Alchemist

Alchemix
10-31-2004, 02:39 PM
Just though I'd put in an afterthought after I hit the post button because I know all to well how things work around here. No I'm not a newbie and no I'm not new to this forum. I've played IL2 since it came out and I read the forums on a regular basis (not daily but weekly to just keep up with what's happening). Been in 2 online squads. I play pretty much every night.

I'm not the best pilot - matter of fact I often find myself struggling to keep my bucket of bolts in the air...and that's even when not being shot at. I'm no newbie, fanboy, nor a troll. I choose not to post because A) I'm usually flying...well at least when not being shot at and B) people around here tend to either complain rather than praise or the opposite flame you when you have a opinion that differs from the 'in-crowd'.

All I can say is it's my first day with PF and I'm enjoying it very much and think it's well done as usual. I even think it runs and looks smoother than AEP. I'm a happy customer and look forward to more from the series.

69th_Alchemist

Deckard71
10-31-2004, 04:12 PM
I absolutely agree with you that we have new goodies to play with, but come on, there aren't actually that many new ones, are there?

Compared with AEP, PF gives us less new planes, the main of them are actually variations of types, not really new. We had the P51, Spit and Zero and Zeke in AEP. All we've got here is more avrieties of those types. A quick check of the plane list and, if you discount type variations, we've got 8 new planes.

Its already been said that the single missions are pretty much non-existent. Ubi themselves claim 11, but look at what they are and you've actually got just 4... all you do is play different sides or fly different planes.

Then with the campaigns, I'd be wrong to say that all the campaigns are unplayable becuase most of them are. But what abot the Beaufighter campaign? its a plane we've not had the pleasure of, there are no single missions for it, so all we have is the campaign and that IS unplayable due to your flight crashing into the hills... on every mission.

So, the 'whole stack' of new goodies sin't actually that big a stack, and what toys we have got to try our genuinely new goodies out with, don't work.

Now I love IL2 and FB and AEP, other than the games I have to review, its the only thing that stays on my drive and gets played every day. I am probably the world's worst pilot and couldn't hit a barn door with a cows bum, but I love playing IL2.

BUT...

For the 35 I paid for this game, I expect a lot more, or at least expect what is there to be working properly. To put it in perpective, AEP gave us more genuinely new aircraft to fly and, though the western campaigns were incomplete, it was worth the price it cost (19.99). PF, I'm sorry to say, in the state it is in now, isn't worth the cost of a full price stand alone game.

Believe me, I REALLY hate to say that, but its the truth.

You can read Ubi press release stuff but delve underneath it and the spin they give it doesn't hold up. Sure, you can install over and have 180 flayble planes.. but that not PF giving you that, you've already bought it with FB and AEP. PF just tops it up a bit.

I'm sorry, but for the amount Ubi are asking, to release a game that actually brings so little new to the genre and to then have it so heavily bugged isn't on and its taking the mickey out of you and me in expecting us to accept it.

Ubi shouldn't have rushed the release. All it has done is put Oleg and 1C under more pressure to get a patch out. (btw, the patch will only add 6 more flyable planes, 3 of which are variants and 1 AI plane).

I'm sure that a loyal and enormous user base like Oleg enjoys would have happily waited a little longer and been ecstatic over PF rather than just happy.

I agree with your thoughts on what can happen if you go against the trend of thought on a forum, wherever that may be, but sometimes you have to take the rough with the smooth.

Now, with a few exceptions, I have read nothing but over the top praise for PF. So much so that I was forced to retunr my copy and get another, in the true belief that I had gotten a dud of some sort. I do not wish to offend anyone here, but there deos seem to be a touch of a blinkered attitude towards the problems you will encounter in this game.

I have never, in any of my posts, flamed another member or attacked Oleg and 1C, nor will I.

I have always and will continue to fully support the continued improvement of a game through patching.

But I can't be the only person to load up PF and wonder if their copy was ok? There are some serious bugs that should never have made it to gold yet did. There are bugs that even the most minimal amount of playtesting would have shown.

So instead of getting all excited and losing three days sleep, calling in sick at work and playing PF constantly, I'm drumming my fingers waiting for a patch.

Now I'm not griping for the sake of griping. Why should I? I have no idea of the torque differences between two types of Corsair or whether the P38 should fly over Japan (read it in another thread). I'm not so into planes and flying that I get all het up over whether something is historically or techinicaly accurate.

I'm not griping becuae I have a grudge over something I wanted to see in the game not being in it. I'm griping over how poor this game is compared to what has gone before.

I had high hopes for a whole load of sea slaty flying goodness and for me, in this incarnation, this has come up way short.

Anyway, here's to the patch! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif (two weeks! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

LEXX_Luthor
10-31-2004, 05:12 PM
Thanks Mjollnir111675 for making clouds #1 topic.

Need large Towering Cumulus clouds...maybe for BoB and Beyond http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Won't happen with FP because the AI must be programmed to see large clouds (except for pure onwhine simming..Stigr?). Flight sim Devs can get away with AI not seeing small clouds as they don't cover much sky. I think this is the reason no flight sim in history ever made Towering Cumulus clouds cos then the AI need to see them.


Ki~44

http://www.warbirdpictures.com/ArmyJB&W2/Ki-44-38.jpg
~ http://www.warbirdpix.com/armynavy.htm

...notice the hard cloud edges and solid cloud appearance--exactly like mountain terrain grafix. Very Simple to render at high fps on ancient ATI~9200 video card. Clouds are not "soft" and "luminescent" except under special and rare conditions (close distance mostly) but the Fancy grafix engine industry doesn't talk about this. ... $$$ money

Alchemix
10-31-2004, 05:47 PM
Nice post Deckard. We're going to get along just fine. Most of what you say about the hype and what you end up getting is true. I know I couldn't help but feel disappointed when I was told I'll get 30 planes or so but get the game and you end up with 5 planes and the rest spin-off variants of those. Misleading yes.

I have my own set of issues where I think the series has been flat...or maybe not flat but awkard or not user friendly. I still have no clue as to what the diff between the diff Spits are (that goes for other planes as well). Sure I can see some are clipped wing but which is the better one in theory where one is listed with the year and another isn't? Better yet what's on Oleg's varient that's in the game because even he's stated in one form another that other people are wrong when they suggest something may be diff. I guess this is where the actual manual gripe comes in. I don't want to hunt the internet doing research and no I spend all day on the computer at work - I don't want to read a pdf on the computer on my downtime.

I've tried the FMB once back in the IL2 days. Confusing. I tried the FMB in FB. Confusing. I tried the FMB in AEP. Confusing. I had better luck programming ASP and database integration when I used to design than I had trying to understand the FMB and I'm not a programmer - I'm an artist. I have had luck painting my own skins though but even that is a pain to figure out.

I've never been thrilled about the whole joystick setting mystery. I've pushed those sliders around so many times trying to figure out a sweet-spot. Everyone has some formula for it and some have even been so kind to let me try out their settings. Nothing seems to work right. I pretty much move the sliders to my weekly mood it seems. Had always wished that they took the time to establish a baseline of profiles for popular sticks...least there would be some sort of starting point other than the default. This may be just me though. Like you, I can't fly worth beans and I've been at it a few years too lol http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Honestly, I've only had PF for one day and the majority of my time is spent in online DFs throughout my time in the series. I can see the bugs bothering others more if you play single player which I only do sometimes. Like you I just grab a plane and try to do my best in it - I'm not into how many rivets such and such model had. I can't even tell you what guns it has... if it makes a big boom and the guy I'm hunting down blows up nice then I know I have a good plane - and a even better plane if I make it back to base alive.

As for content, well you may be right if you think of PF as being an addon like we do. There really isn't ALOT that's new compared to the price but it's actually a deal if you're buying it as the stand-alone when you're staring at shelves of $70 games (least here in Canada) all competing for your $$$. $20 cheaper than most games and it'll be providing me lots of fly time. I can't say CFS3 gave me that...it went back the next day because it was constantly crashing my system when it was released. <NOTE CFS3 was a total mess for alot of people when it came out>. AEP was just that...an expansion pack which explains the price diff. Can't really blame them for upping the price for something that works on its own.

Just so you know I didn't target you on that flame comment just in case you may have misunderstood. It was ment for others who may have read my series of recent posts and decided to reply with the usual 'what do you know, you're a newbie' response. I've already seen a few posts in here like that and I've seen those same posts each time a new version comes out. I guess I'm just jaded.

You can look at the glass half empty or half full Deckard. There's still lots o' sea salty fun to be had, man. Big mug of coffee, fast plane with a big gun and there's no denying that making someone go boom isn't fun. Really the only thing that's missing is having side arms so you can try to shoot people after you bail out.

69th_Alchemist

Tocca4
11-01-2004, 12:09 AM
There's one thing about the controls that buggers me a bit.
I'm using a Saitek X36 combo, programming everything i need to it so i wont have to take my hands off it during play.

But there's ONE single command that isn't possible! The map zoom... I.E Mouse-rightclick.
Sure, i can program right-mouseclick to a button on the X36. But for this to work in game, the mouse cursor has to be ON the map window!

Irritating really, and it's been this way since the original IL2.
I just wish they made it possible to assign a keystroke to mapzoom and i'd be happy.

Everything else about P.F is super IMO. I'm really enjoying it... Sure there are some things that's missing or might be improved, but i can live with it!

A bit like getting a nice Ferrari, and finding that there's some scratches on it and maybe the radio doesn't work. Irritating maybe, but i wouldn't change back to my old Ford/Nissan/whatever, just because of that! :-)

cpirrmann
11-01-2004, 01:59 PM
I can't say I have many buggy issue or plane type complaints, but I agree big-time on the manual. I know it's an industry standard now, but I do miss having a manual to browse or study when I'm not flying or when I'm also in the 'cockpit', throne, etc. As for clouds, water, etc, just having them is great for me. I started Sims when they were wire frame on an Atari64 so I know how far they've come and being a programmer, I also appreciate how much work is involved. As a pilot, I find this sim pretty close to the real thing or as close as a PC can get. I especially enjoy ded reckoning or pilotage when navigating on missions and the maps and ground detail have made that enjoyable. In PF, I found the campaigns to be most disappointing for me. I know many rants discuss how this sim affects new players and I can understand that, but I will point out that any respectable sim I've played had a sizeable learning curve if you want realism and most people today (read younger) don't seem to have the patience. That's OK for them, but then this sim wouldn't be. The other aspect of this particular sim is the community that has developed around it. Yes, the sim may be 'buggy' or 'imcomplete' or too complex for beginners but the IL2 community has stretched this sim in unbelievable directions in form, geography and time. I am deeply grateful to all those who put in all the hard work making campaigns, missions, skins, and even great movies to watch. I've never seen anything like it. As far as being disappointed in the campaigns, I can do some modifications myself quickly to satisfy me until you guys come up with good ones and , believe me, those are the best campaigns. When asked what makes an airplane fly, the answer is 'money'. that's the same answer for 'What makes a sim work?'. It's more than likely that Oleg had to push PF out the door to meet publisher demands as too often happens, but 1C's follow up attention and the IL2 community, I think, helps us enjoy the sim and get the most out if it. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to print a few pages of the PDF manual and retire to the.... you know.

Alchemix
11-01-2004, 07:37 PM
Funny thing about the manual... not just with this game but with all game today. I was searching about a week ago for something and came across my old Red Baron 3D manual. The thing is about as thick as all the manuals combined that have come with with my games in the last 2 years (PC and Xbox together) and I bought ALOT of games. Just find it funny that such a big manual came with a low tech WW I sim and even has info in it that you didn't need to play the game like Ace and war histories. Biggest manual that I've seen as of late has been for Rome Total War - but then again that's a fairly complicated game... but leaves out info that would be handy to have.

Seems funny that today companies are satisfied to put out manauals that are a step up from what amounts as a broucher. One page of health warning, 3 pages of installation, a page of key commands, 2 to 10 pages of gameplay instructions - mostly 1st mission walkthroughs and a developer's weak witty yammering, 5 pages of copyright legal fluff and tech support, and then 2 pages of look what we're releasing next month or $2 a min phone cheatlines and registration. After all that they leave it up to Prima to put together a strat guide (which suck ... strat guides no - cheat guides yes). Guess companies are more satisfied to lay back and collect licensing fees/royalties from Prima rather than publishing their own guides. I'd even suggest that maybe companies should look at making their own strat manual/game bundles instead of like say UBI made up the postcard dealy for PF or other companaies release limited edition tin case editions. I know I'd pay more for a complete Oleg's Manual and Strategy Guide that came bundled with the game... and no the manual doesn't need to have embossed tin covers with an embedded hologram. As long as it explains every plane and weapon loadout (what the heck is a PTAB anyway) and how to use the FMB I'd be pretty happy.

Agreed Tocca. I've always felt the map has been clunky. Of course here comes another reference to Red Baron 3D, at least we can pull it up on the screen and still fly rather than pushing a key to look down at your map strapped to your leg. For the lack of a better suggestion I'd have to say it's better than being bounced out of the cockpit/action to look at a separate map screen. It funny, I'm looking at my keyboard and I have one of those multimedia kb's with all the fancy extra buttons that I never use. Might be nice to be able to bind those keys to things like map control - but then I'd have to grow a 3rd arm to control my stick, throttle, and keyboard.

69th_Alchemist