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View Full Version : Spitfire stall characteristics. Interview Mark Hanna



Richardsen
02-14-2007, 10:33 AM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=1HCBNMUlfWg

Go 3.20min into the video, Mark is talking abaut stalling characteristics in a turn.

Seems to be a big difference between spit IRL and that we have ingame.

Richardsen
02-14-2007, 10:33 AM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=1HCBNMUlfWg

Go 3.20min into the video, Mark is talking abaut stalling characteristics in a turn.

Seems to be a big difference between spit IRL and that we have ingame.

RocketDog
02-14-2007, 10:42 AM
I think the stall behaviour of aircraft in IL-2 is one of the FM's biggest limitations. Almost all aircraft drop a wing and spin and there doesn't seem to be that much difference between them.

RD.

XyZspineZyX
02-14-2007, 10:44 AM
There are differences that are big in every real aircraft and this sim- just like any other sim

Thank you for the Mark Hanna interview though. before anyone asks, Mark Hanna cannot give impressions of 4.08 versus real life because he is unfortunately deceased. He was at the time of the interview probably the most experienced warbird pilot in the world, with the possible exception of his father, Ray Hanna. Mark Hanna was also a combat pilot, having flown in the Falklands

ploughman
02-14-2007, 10:50 AM
The way a Spit talks to its pilot is hard to model in a sim, if you have a force feed back stick and turn up you speakers nice and loud so you hear the air 'ripping' you get some indicators that are pretty useful but the limitations of the interface don't allow for the communication between pilot and plane that occurred in reality.

Thanks for the vid. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

BillyTheKid_22
02-14-2007, 11:15 AM
http://www.ofmc.co.uk/images/markandray.jpg



http://www.ofmc.co.uk/images/IMG_0745.JPG



http://www.jfs.no/bilder/alb_markhanna.jpg



http://www.airsceneuk.org.uk/oldstuff/daytoremember/spitfire.JPG



http://www.airsceneuk.org.uk/oldstuff/daytoremember/spit.JPG



Mark Hanna- August 6, 1959 - September 26, 1999

Ray Hanna- August 28, 1928 - December 1, 2005

Mark Hanna died in a flying accident at Sabadell, near Barcelona, Sept. 26, 1999 aged 40. He was on Aug.6,1959. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

tomtheyak
02-14-2007, 11:53 AM
I have an Sidewinder FFB2 and I can asure you who dont have FFB that the in game Spit is one of the most "talkative" a/c in the sim near the stall - buffeting galore and she enters the incipient sim slowly enough that if you're paying attention and its caught quickly enough you can just catch her as she trys to flick - many of the other aircraft do not provide such a full on warning, though the P-40 and 109 are quite similar.

A full power combat turn is always gonna have tendancies to flick in; it has all the main ingredients of a high speed stall - any a/c, including the Spit, will flick in if AOA is exceeded under load at full power. The torque, AOA differential between each wing and the likelihood of the aircraft to be imperfectly trimmed directionally as the manouevre is executed , all make a snap spin very easy.

WOLFMondo
02-14-2007, 12:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BBB462cid:
There are differences that are big in every real aircraft and this sim- just like any other sim

Thank you for the Mark Hanna interview though. before anyone asks, Mark Hanna cannot give impressions of 4.08 versus real life because he is unfortunately deceased. He was at the time of the interview probably the most experienced warbird pilot in the world, with the possible exception of his father, Ray Hanna. Mark Hanna was also a combat pilot, having flown in the Falklands </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd contest that (taking nothing away from Mark Hanna), Eric Brown is still alive and still the no1 resource on WW2 aircraft, since he flew almost all of them. No other man has flown so many WW2 fighters, alive or dead. I think he flew at least all the US, British and German aircraft in this sim (including many of the subvariants and even ones we don't have), and many of the VVS, Italian and even a few Japanese planes including the Frank.

If you want a fair point of reference, he's the man.

NonWonderDog
02-14-2007, 12:12 PM
Keep in mind, also, that when it comes to spin characteristics every airframe is different. The huge torque of a warbird engine will override that pretty easily during a full-power stall, but most aircraft have some tendancy to drop a wing during a power-off stall. Which wing will drop (and how much) is often unique to that specific airframe. (Yes, even Cessnas. Plenty of 152s/172s/177s need the ground-set aileron trim tab bent in one direction or another to fly straight, and those have no effect if the outer wing is stalled.)

It's exaggerated in the sim (I still hold that falling leaf maneuvers are manifestly impossible in IL2), but it's not something you should really get that worked up about. Just about any condition where you might find yourself stalled during a dogfight would result in a spin if you weren't careful.

BillyTheKid_22
02-14-2007, 12:26 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Be NICE!!!!

faustnik
02-14-2007, 12:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BBB462cid:
Mark Hanna cannot give impressions of 4.08 versus real life because he is unfortunately deceased. He was at the time of the interview probably the most experienced warbird pilot in the world </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Didn't Cpt. Brown try IL-2?

EDIT: Oops, sry Mondo.

fighter_966
02-14-2007, 12:58 PM
Well BF109g and F model talks to me in this game before they go too tight in turning as do FW190a or D models my versio is 4.071m they are fun to fly.I have tried P-40 IMO it has developed for better...But this is just "feelings" Been flying from the start .BTW that video was great thanks http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

SeaFireLIV
02-14-2007, 02:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tomtheyak:
I have an Sidewinder FFB2 and I can asure you who dont have FFB that the in game Spit is one of the most "talkative" a/c in the sim near the stall - buffeting galore and she enters the incipient sim slowly enough that if you're paying attention and its caught quickly enough you can just catch her as she trys to flick - . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is true. I have the same stick and it makes a massive difference in knowing how far you can push your Spit.

XyZspineZyX
02-14-2007, 02:43 PM
I wasn't aware that Eric Brown was still flying warbirds circa 1999

faustnik
02-14-2007, 03:09 PM
If you are over-controlling the Spitfire, practice with a Yak. When you go back to the Spit, it will be stall/spin proof.

WOLFMondo
02-15-2007, 12:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BBB462cid:
I wasn't aware that Eric Brown was still flying warbirds circa 1999 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He was flying them from the 30's through to the 70's. Please check out 'wings on my sleeve' to see just how many warbirds he tested. Not displayed but tested.

P.S. Hanna flew Phantoms right? Eric Brown got the Phantom for the RAF after flying it in the states and getting the Government to purchases them. Find me another guy who flew the Phantom and an Me163 or Ar234 or Me262, or 14 mks of Spitfire (he quotes the MkXII as the nicest Spit to fly), or almost all Mk's of FW190 and flew of the first escort carrier into combat with F4F's. The guy is a legend with more firsts and more carrier landings than any man alive or has ever been alive.

ploughman
02-15-2007, 03:04 AM
I don't think cid would deny that Wolf, but I think he just meant at the time of the interview Mark Hanna was perhaps the most experienced guy currently flying rather than alive, his dad Ray peformed his final routine in 2005 at Duxford, shortly before his death.

WOLFMondo
02-15-2007, 03:50 AM
I guess so and can't argue with that. Not taking anything away from Mark Hanna or his father but they only flew a mere two or three examples of both the Spit and 109, whereas Brown flew almost all of them in there peak wartime condition.

nsteense
02-15-2007, 04:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
..., whereas Brown flew almost all of them in there peak wartime condition... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Which wasn't always something to boast about. Wartime standards are just a bit different when it in peace time...

By the way, I met the man last year at Flying Legends. Signed my copy of 'Wings on my sleeves', which is now one of my more treasured books !!!(although it wasn't the best book I ever read, it just left me enormously impressed with his service state)

XyZspineZyX
02-15-2007, 05:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BBB462cid:
I wasn't aware that Eric Brown was still flying warbirds circa 1999 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He was flying them from the 30's through to the 70's. Please check out 'wings on my sleeve' to see just how many warbirds he tested. Not displayed but tested.

P.S. Hanna flew Phantoms right? Eric Brown got the Phantom for the RAF after flying it in the states and getting the Government to purchases them. Find me another guy who flew the Phantom and an Me163 or Ar234 or Me262, or 14 mks of Spitfire (he quotes the MkXII as the nicest Spit to fly), or almost all Mk's of FW190 and flew of the first escort carrier into combat with F4F's. The guy is a legend with more firsts and more carrier landings than any man alive or has ever been alive. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I know.

You are misunderstanding me very much, and this is beginning to be a "You said something bad about Eric Borwn" argument

Hanna was still flying warbirds when he made his statements. With no disrespect for Capt Brown, a man whose accomplishments were many, Hanna was still flying the planes regularly, and made comments about flying this plane while still flying it and others that are it's ontemporaries, not 20 years after his last flight. Maybe I should have used the term "current" or "active" when I made my statments about Hanna being the most experienced but I stand by my statement nonetheless. Hanna had flown the Spit recently, and commented on it's characrteristics. brown made his statements years after the fact. Hanna's statements were not made after a decade or more since the last time he did it. That is not to say that Brown was senile or incompetent or mentally degraded in any way, it is to say that memory is imperfect. Tell me, for example, about something you did 20 years ago, right now, and do not make any mistakes in the re-telling. It's hard to do. Hanna had essentially just done it, so his recollection is, by nature, more sharp and concise

WOLFMondo
02-15-2007, 06:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BBB462cid:
Tell me, for example, about something you did 20 years ago, right now, and do not make any mistakes in the re-telling. It's hard to do. Hanna had essentially just done it, so his recollection is, by nature, more sharp and concise </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unlike almost every other wartime pilot the neat thing about anything Brown has said, is backed up by the documented test flights he did in the planes at the time of production or capture. His books are from those diaries.

Its a bit of a pointless argument which I take the blame for. Test & fighter pilot vs display and former RAF jet pilot but if there opinions match up then we have two people with good authority on the subject saying the same thing.

Maybe the ultimate authority on Spitfires needs to be consulted...the man who flew the majority of all Spitfires ever produced.

ploughman
02-15-2007, 06:55 AM
I still haven't bought Henshaw's book. Unforgiveable really, must've had it in my paws a dozen times. What's he say on the subject?

XyZspineZyX
02-15-2007, 07:15 AM
Henshaw...test pilot for SUpermarine? Didn't he barrel roll a Lancaster or some other behemoth?

WOLFMondo
02-15-2007, 07:47 AM
Don't forget Geoffry Quill. Not sure if it was Alex Henshaw who rolled it but I would have paid money to see that!