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View Full Version : 1st civilization paradox... (spoilers)



ickbar1
04-11-2011, 12:31 AM
Just finished AC: Brotherhood, Great game. Love the story so far, i'm willing to suspend disbelief to enjoy the game, but still there are some things that don't really make sense to me, just one pet peeve.

Okay a theory for an advanced civilization that is far beyond our own current technology that influenced ancient history already exists in real life. I'd gather partial inspiration for the one's who came before is indirectly related to the ancient astronauts theory (erich von danikens) work.

And making the advanced civilization the 1st civilization makes it more unique and interesting as a story telling device, however what doesn't make sense is if the one's who came before are so advanced beyond mankind.

Why have they not developed interstellar travel yet? So far in game anything remotely related to space only concerns Templar sattelites made by man. It's rather odd that beings who are so advanced and hover on air, have zero technological development in space technology and wouldn't know how to light the right end of a chemical rocket before having it blow up in their faces.

Any advanced civilzation beyond mankind would have strong incentive to develop interstellar travel (mining, scientific knowledge, search for extraterrestrial intelligence, long term survival) and that's implied even in the Kardashev scale for which man is rated at Type 0.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardashev_scale

which also brings up the issue of long-term survival, as even Stephen hawking noted that for the survival of our species we need to expand and colonize other planets down the line. Why The-ones-who-came before didn't come to a similar conclusion and knowlingly got themselves extinct despite having precognition is imo another plothole.

ickbar1
04-11-2011, 12:31 AM
Just finished AC: Brotherhood, Great game. Love the story so far, i'm willing to suspend disbelief to enjoy the game, but still there are some things that don't really make sense to me, just one pet peeve.

Okay a theory for an advanced civilization that is far beyond our own current technology that influenced ancient history already exists in real life. I'd gather partial inspiration for the one's who came before is indirectly related to the ancient astronauts theory (erich von danikens) work.

And making the advanced civilization the 1st civilization makes it more unique and interesting as a story telling device, however what doesn't make sense is if the one's who came before are so advanced beyond mankind.

Why have they not developed interstellar travel yet? So far in game anything remotely related to space only concerns Templar sattelites made by man. It's rather odd that beings who are so advanced and hover on air, have zero technological development in space technology and wouldn't know how to light the right end of a chemical rocket before having it blow up in their faces.

Any advanced civilzation beyond mankind would have strong incentive to develop interstellar travel (mining, scientific knowledge, search for extraterrestrial intelligence, long term survival) and that's implied even in the Kardashev scale for which man is rated at Type 0.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardashev_scale

which also brings up the issue of long-term survival, as even Stephen hawking noted that for the survival of our species we need to expand and colonize other planets down the line. Why The-ones-who-came before didn't come to a similar conclusion and knowlingly got themselves extinct despite having precognition is imo another plothole.

Blind2Society
04-11-2011, 12:52 AM
The difference is a 6th sense which I believe is eagle vision (or so I thought). As for space travel I'm not clear whether they even confirmed or disconfirmed their ability to do so.

I am also unclear as to whether or not they had warning the first time. I was under the impression they had no warning and they left us a warning so humans wouldn't share their fate. This was how I understood it my first two playthroughs but I am currently on my third so we'll see...

UrDeviant1
04-11-2011, 01:00 AM
Hi, you make some good points i think but as for 'the ones who came before' i think they were Gods, not some technologicaly advanced alien astronauts. Im no expert n there's ppl on here that know alot more than me about the game but i think if they were the ones who created the pieces of eden then they must be very technologicaly advanced but failed somewhere along the line, perhaps due to the templars which might be why they r aiding desmond in his quest. Would be good to know what others think on this cause im curious too.

itsamea-mario
04-11-2011, 03:24 AM
Nowhere does it say that there from earth (i think) how do you think they got here?
Vidic said most techniogical advances are due to information from TWCB, i'm sure that includes space travel.

And their not gods, that's the point, early civilisation thought they where, but they were simply just more advanced, hence Minerva correcting Ezio when he says "your are gods?"
And she says "no, we simply came, before.."

El_Sjietah
04-11-2011, 06:48 AM
Maybe TWCB didn't reproduce like rabbits while at the same time trying to keep everyone of them alive. Seriously, the only reason we need interstellar travel to survive is because we're humans and we as a species either suck at longterm thinking or let our emotions get in the way of acting upon it.

UrDeviant1
04-11-2011, 07:13 AM
r ok cool i see what you mean then. The only time i saw anything remotely hinting at space let alone space travel is when Leonardo says he's studying someones works about the heavenly sphere's n the cosmos. Maybe we simply evolved after them but i prefer the thought of them being aliens.

Abeonis
04-11-2011, 09:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by UrDeviant1:
r ok cool i see what you mean then. The only time i saw anything remotely hinting at space let alone space travel is when Leonardo says he's studying someones works about the heavenly sphere's n the cosmos. Maybe we simply evolved after them but i prefer the thought of them being aliens. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The First Civilisation aren't aliens, they are, for lack of a better word, 'proto-humans'.

@OP: It only seems odd to us because we went through a period of history known as the Space Race, which spurred on stellar technology. The First Civilisation might not necessarily have had any need, or desire to travel in the space.

You also mention overpopulation as being a possible cause for the First Civilisation to research space travel; overpopulation is not really an issue.

Even now, Earth is not overpopulated; it is, however, suffering from a highly disproportionatly spread out population, which may or may not have been the case way back when.

ThaWhistle
04-11-2011, 10:05 AM
i thought one of the glyphs in AC2 was about the apollo missions and some need to go to the moon relating to pieces of eden.

TwentyGlyphs
04-11-2011, 11:22 AM
Yep, one of the Truth puzzles from AC2 shows that the Apollo 11 mission to the moon was actually a Templar/Abstergo plot to find an Apple of Eden. Subject 16 said it was abandoned up there long ago.

Also in Project Legacy, there are some Holiday memories that show the Beagle 2 Mars lander that was lost on December 25, 2003 was actually taken over by an engineer on the inside. She was paid by some mystery man who never revealed his intentions for wanting to control the lander. My guess is he's working for Abstergo and doesn't want some truth to be discovered on Mars that would upset the balance of power and control they have going on. It would be similar to what you see in the AC2 Truth puzzle where Abstergo has a fake "missing link" skeleton planted to keep humanity from discovering the truth about their origins.

As for what could be discovered on Mars, there might be clues in the Mnemonic sets that you can collect in the Mars memories. They are refences to real life pictures taken by other Martian landers that appear to show some type of skulls. Two of the images look like human skulls. I downloaded the images and looked at their filenames to see clues for the other two. Those two images are named "Goddess Statue" and "Bird Skull." This could be the link to the ancient astronaut theory.

Blind2Society
04-11-2011, 01:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Abeonis:
Even now, Earth is not overpopulated </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't mean to stary off topic and I don't want to argue I just wanted to say, I couldn't DISagree with you more.

El_Sjietah
04-11-2011, 01:57 PM
Earth being overpopulated is a pretty vague term. It'd be more correct to state we're reaching a size where we can no longer sustain our own population. It happens to quite a few other animals on this planet (think locust).

So either we come up with a way to get more out of Earth's resources (more efficient use of energy, food, water), we reduce our rate of reproduction, we reduce our survivability (killing of those who can no longer contribute to society; ie. the weak, elderly, disabled), we colonise other planets and ignore the problem completely until we make the same mistakes over there or we simply wait for D Day to happen after which humanity will slowly start to shrink due to starvation/dehydration/dependency on electricity up to the point where enough people have died for the survivors to be able to pick up the pieces.

Judging by our history as a species, I expect the latter.

UrDeviant1
04-11-2011, 02:09 PM
I think mankind will one day Terraform mars and begin a new population there untill one day they can branch out even further and even build giant spacestations around neutron stars

Abeonis
04-11-2011, 07:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blind2Society:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Abeonis:
Even now, Earth is not overpopulated </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't mean to stary off topic and I don't want to argue I just wanted to say, I couldn't DISagree with you more. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Erm, ok. Unless you provide a counter arguement, I couldn't care less?

UrDeviant1
04-11-2011, 07:56 PM
Certain parts of the world are over populated but not as a whole. we have loads of room left haha

Blind2Society
04-11-2011, 08:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by UrDeviant1:
Certain parts of the world are over populated but not as a whole. we have loads of room left haha </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's just brilliant... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

UrDeviant1
04-11-2011, 08:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blind2Society:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by UrDeviant1:
Certain parts of the world are over populated but not as a whole. we have loads of room left haha </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's just brilliant... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok so over population is a bad thing i agree obviously, but thats largely down to medical advancements and agricultural success so what do you do? kill off Africa and preserve it as a national wildlife park? Whats your view on it?

Blind2Society
04-11-2011, 08:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by UrDeviant1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blind2Society:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by UrDeviant1:
Certain parts of the world are over populated but not as a whole. we have loads of room left haha </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's just brilliant... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok so over population is a bad thing i agree obviously, but thats largely down to medical advancements and agricultural success so what do you do? kill off Africa and preserve it as a national wildlife park? Whats your view on it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't claim to have a solution and I don't like the idea of killing anyone but killers. However, if one looks to history, they can see that nature has a way of controling population whether it be human or other. But it is a major problem none the less and without a solution it will eventualy work itself out. It damn sure won't be pretty though.

I'm done talking armageddon if you all don't mind. It's depressing.

ickbar1
04-12-2011, 02:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You also mention overpopulation as being a possible cause for the First Civilisation to research space travel; overpopulation is not really an issue. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only one of the reasons, but in hindsight if i thought about it more carefully I would rephrase the term as either sustainability or survivability.

If they had a colony somewhere in another solar system or more distant planet, that 'solar flare' that caused a magnetic reversal and made an extinction scenario for the short-sighted first civilization on earth wouldn't have happened. Ergo, they wouldn't have to worry about the extinction of their race.

But most likely it's a story telling device, a conscious plothole made in order to make the game not veer off too much into sci-fi territory.

ickbar1
04-12-2011, 02:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by coryplayspiano:
Yep, one of the Truth puzzles from AC2 shows that the Apollo 11 mission to the moon was actually a Templar/Abstergo plot to find an Apple of Eden. Subject 16 said it was abandoned up there long ago.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah I missed that, I could be wrong on my intial assessment, about space travel in a strict sense, but I was thinking more along the lines of advanced warp travel, wormholes, hyperspace travel, to travel and colonize a different planet or solar system successfully.

Just because they can go to the moon or mars, doesn't mean squat if they all die off on earth.

Though i'm floating another theory, I doubt these beings are really altruistic and that Desmond could be lied to by either minerva or Juno about the extinction of their race.

Maybe the truth is they're not really all dead, a couple of them could be hiding some where on another planet.

And the steps they take to 'save' the earth from another cataclysm is just a contingency plan to bring them back from the brink of complete extinction.

But that's just speculation in most likelihood if they don't address the issue in my eyes it's a plot hole that's kept there to keep the story focused on historical events and not become to mass-effect like.

UrDeviant1
04-12-2011, 06:49 AM
Who's gonna give a in a Hundred years http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sleepzzz.gif

<span class="ev_code_RED">Please do not bypass the Language Filter.</span>

Abeonis
04-12-2011, 07:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by UrDeviant1:
Who's gonna give a in a Hundred years http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sleepzzz.gif
<span class="ev_code_RED">Please do not bypass the Language Filter.</span> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My grandchildren might...

ThaWhistle
04-12-2011, 10:09 AM
well, the carrying capacity of the earth for humans at our current resource consumption rate has been met. we are slowly running out of resources, especially fresh water. so unless we figure out a way to change out resource allocation, we will be screwed.

phil.llllll
04-12-2011, 10:19 AM
You know what's a real paradox? Desmond holding the Piece of Eden at the end of AC:B.

Also regarding the topic, who's to say that TWCB didn't develop space travel? When Minerva says they were gone from this world, that very well could have meant they left.