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michapma
12-19-2003, 09:21 AM
Alright Flight Sim Fans, time to start up the flame of controversy and split into our camps.

I am somewhat averse to the phrase "It's just a game." Often this is accompanied with "Don't take it so seriously." The reason I don't like "It's just a game" is because it can be understood at least two ways. On the one hand, it can mean something like, "This is not reality, don't get confused about that," which I always consider a valid and necessary point. On the other hand, I think it can mean, "Lighten up, you're not having any fun and you're spoiling our fun because you're too intense with the game." Or, something like that.

IL-2/FB is not "just" a game to me. It's a major hobby. Now while I have a great deal of fun horsing around and just enjoying the game for its superb entertainment value, one of the great satisfactions I get from the game is treating it seriously and accepting the challenge of realistic flying, including limitations (even if "unrealistic"), in a hostile environment. This can be stressful and (for me anyway) take lots of study and concentration. It becomes more than just a game, as I imagine for example chess becomes more than just a game to a serious chess player.

So to fan the flame of controversy, it's not "just" a game. It's "just" a major hobby. At the same time, I agree you have to control yourself if things don't go well, if others don't agree with you or if you can't get what you want.

Mike

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_chap.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)

michapma
12-19-2003, 09:21 AM
Alright Flight Sim Fans, time to start up the flame of controversy and split into our camps.

I am somewhat averse to the phrase "It's just a game." Often this is accompanied with "Don't take it so seriously." The reason I don't like "It's just a game" is because it can be understood at least two ways. On the one hand, it can mean something like, "This is not reality, don't get confused about that," which I always consider a valid and necessary point. On the other hand, I think it can mean, "Lighten up, you're not having any fun and you're spoiling our fun because you're too intense with the game." Or, something like that.

IL-2/FB is not "just" a game to me. It's a major hobby. Now while I have a great deal of fun horsing around and just enjoying the game for its superb entertainment value, one of the great satisfactions I get from the game is treating it seriously and accepting the challenge of realistic flying, including limitations (even if "unrealistic"), in a hostile environment. This can be stressful and (for me anyway) take lots of study and concentration. It becomes more than just a game, as I imagine for example chess becomes more than just a game to a serious chess player.

So to fan the flame of controversy, it's not "just" a game. It's "just" a major hobby. At the same time, I agree you have to control yourself if things don't go well, if others don't agree with you or if you can't get what you want.

Mike

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_chap.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)

Udidtoo
12-19-2003, 09:31 AM
All very good points but sadly enough the most common mentality seems to be this.

Disagree with my views = your obviously a moron or my favorite variation, "You don't use the same settings as me?...Noob"

..............................
I always have just enough fuel to arrive at the scene of my crash.

BSS_Goat
12-19-2003, 09:37 AM
Who's a geek?

Future-
12-19-2003, 10:14 AM
I think I can fully agree with you michapma, FB is far less than reality, but more than "just" a game.

S!

- Future

Commanding Officer of the 530th Bomb Squad
380th Bomb Group 5th AF USAAF

http://invisionfree.com:54/40/30/upload/p1083.jpg

Visit us at http://members.tripod.com/tophatssquadron , home of the 310th FS and the 380th BG

madsarmy
12-19-2003, 11:33 AM
Michapma I agree with you.

I have played IL-2 from the demo release. To me it was just a game (one of the best games).
Then Forgotten Battles was released & now it?s not just a game anymore.
FB coincided with me getting broadband so I mostly play online now. At first all I wanted to do was get kills. After learning to fly full real then flying on full real servers I have gained some self discipline & the object is to survive and get back to base.
When a game leaves me shaking with adrenaline and feeling mentally drained through concentration. It has become more than just a game.

http://mysite.freeserve.com/fbscreenshots/images/0-picture.jpg

"LOOK MUM NO HANDS!"

Zen.Fighter
12-19-2003, 11:46 AM
I spend 2-7 hours per day in FB.
I even forget to "sleep" with my wife just to play this game and will someone tell me "it's just a game"?
I don't think so http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Future-
12-19-2003, 11:51 AM
Lol @ Zen.Fighter !

I think you have a lil problem there m8. I really like FB, but I sure like to (make) love (to) my girlfriend A LOT more than anything virtuality can bring up.

S!

- Future

Commanding Officer of the 530th Bomb Squad
380th Bomb Group 5th AF USAAF

http://invisionfree.com:54/40/30/upload/p1083.jpg

Visit us at http://members.tripod.com/tophatssquadron , home of the 310th FS and the 380th BG

tsisqua
12-19-2003, 11:54 AM
Well, it must be more than "just a game", since its the most fun I've ever had with my pants on.

http://www.uploadit.org/files/010903-nedChristie.jpg

nicolas10
12-19-2003, 11:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by michapma:
"This is not reality, don't get confused about that," which I always consider a valid and necessary point.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Does this mean I can't fly with my white scarf on? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Nic

The first official D12 whiner!

georgeo76
12-19-2003, 12:10 PM
There is nothing wrong w/ taking FB seriously. Maybe it should be considered a 'sport', that way everyone will understand that sometimes it's to be taken lightly, while sometimes it's intense, competitive, and even stressful.


My only objection to the 'realism' argument is that one should not try to compare what happens 'in game' w/ what happened in RL. Or at least take into account the differences between simulation and history. What I mean is that like all computer simulations, FB can't hope to re-create a scenario similar to combat or war. If it did, no one would want to play it. There are so many variables that simply can't be reproduced in a computer.

http://webpages.charter.net/Stick_Fiend/images/alex.jpg
"Oh bliss, bliss and heaven. Oh, it was gorgeousness and gorgeosity made flesh. It was like a bird of rarest spun heaven metal, or like silvery wine flowing in a space ship, gravity all nonsense now. As I slooshied I knew such lovely pictures."
Fiend's Wings (http://webpages.charter.net/Stick_Fiend)

Bearcat99
12-19-2003, 12:41 PM
It's definitely more than a game to me. I have more fun here (with this sim) than just about anywhere else..the fact that I know I am breaking no laws, putting no one's life or limb in danger(especially my own), and not spending too much $$$ is a big one for me. I can come down here and have a blast by myself, with friends, go arcade city or maxxdiff, and still have a ball any and either way.....and I can do it for hours and not get bored. Sometimes when I am just trying to perfect my deflection shooting I just set ammo to unlimitted so I dont have to run out of ammo before the targets are all gone. Of course when the time to get serious comes along then you set it straight. One of the beauties of this sim is anyway you slice it, it's a gem.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>http://www.world-wide-net.com/tuskegeeairmen/ta-1943.jpg (http://tuskegeeairmen.org/airmen/who.html)[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>vflyer@comcast.net [/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>99thPursuit Squadron IL2 Forgotten Battles (http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat)[/list]

[This message was edited by Bearcat99 on Fri December 19 2003 at 07:03 PM.]

DONB3397
12-19-2003, 02:09 PM
FB seems to have more sides than most hobbies. Do you like modelling? FB is the place. Do you want to relive a little history? FB is the place. Interested in aerobatic competition? This is the place. Challenges? Education? Maybe even exercise?

But is it a game? Sure.

But for us old fantasy fighter pilots and wannabe aces, it may seem a little more.

Winning isn't everything;
It's the only thing!

Gato_M5
12-19-2003, 02:47 PM
Can be, or not depending on your taste, and the way you fly on it. If you fly most of the time full real, then you surely won´t think of it as "just a game". If you don´t, and you prefer the arcade settings, then you will probably think the opposite. Both are valid ways of flying, but as I said first, depends on your taste.
FB lets you choose, and get (if you want) an almost real flight experence.

[Gypsy]
12-19-2003, 03:59 PM
A serious hobby for me that started with a "free" IL2 with my joystick... that "free" game has cost me more than I want to think about... but the "return on investment" (from a fun-to-be-involved-in aspect) has proven to be the best investment I have made to date...

"Gypsy"

"Onward my friends, onward through the fog."

arcadeace
12-19-2003, 04:07 PM
I have no problem with anyone's feelings: game to real. Although enjoying it more than sex is a problem. Everyone can have their own fantasy and more realism, more immersion. I'ts always satisfying walking away a hero.

The difficulty center's on members' attitudes taking for granted a cyberspace forum. A lot of egos would be much more tame, more controlled if this was in the flesh. People here don't have to worry about a broken nose.

There should be some great flame wars when BoB arrives. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Not to mention OT.

Cossack13
12-19-2003, 04:17 PM
If you are hearing "It's just a game" very often, odds are you are flying with the wrong bunch of guys. You'll enjoy things much more if you find a group who see eye-to-eye with you on such matters.

Life is too short not to enjoy your gaming time.

http://members.verizon.net/~vze2cb22/KosSig.gif

KGr.HH-Sunburst
12-19-2003, 04:25 PM
thats totally my view michapma
its a Hobby and not just a game to
.....can i say obsession ?
i play il2 for 2 years now and do it every day
and stil not bored with it

http://www.warhawks.tk/
http://server5.uploadit.org/files2/191203-sigbf109.jpg

RayBanJockey
12-19-2003, 04:36 PM
It is just a game. Even Oleg says it's a game first, sim second.

No matter if you are playing full real, it's just the full real arcade.

If it ever becomes more than just a game to you then you are missing out on all the fun.

Your best bet is to play medium settings and enjoy the fun and scenery. Don't get too caught up in "full real". There comes a point where it isn't full real anymore, just univision torture.

When your ego is all that matters and you think playing "full real" is the only solution, you have truley lost touch.

A good time online is to warm up in the cockpit laden servers, then head on over to the medium settings servers.

LeadSpitter_
12-19-2003, 06:33 PM
yeah realism went out the window, but we still play and have fun killing each other, oleg doesnt seem to listen to pilots who have experience in vintage warbirds and try to help him out with realism, but its his game and he will do as he pleases. All we can do is have fun and play. I have to disagree with burt eyebrows RBJ, servers like greatergreen, virtual pilots 1 2 and mudmovers have the highest skilled players in them and it makes fr so much fun. mid and externals servers take the fun out of it and makes tactics useless witht he external 6 checking.

http://www.geocities.com/leadspittersig/LSIG.txt

XyZspineZyX
12-19-2003, 06:55 PM
As I stated before as a different name, if this was truely "Full Real" the first time you crashed and died FB would un-install itself and you would not be able to re-install it.

Is it a game? Yes. No one really dies, get's injured, captured and tortured.

Is it a sim? Yes. It does the best job (currently) of simulating flying a World War II vintage aircraft in situations much like those that actually happened.

I, like many others, am completely caught up in this 'Simulation'. I don't think anyone should berate those who choose to fly at less than hardest settings though. Oleg made it scaleable, so let those who choose easier settings be. You who have a "less than full real is not good enough" attitude would certainly feel differently if that hammer came down on your head.

And....welcome back RBJ. I'll be looking for your usual witty entandre.

http://www.il2airracing.com/images/IL2AirRacing.gif

WUAF_Badsight
12-19-2003, 07:00 PM
sometimes i play this GAME seriously

sometimes i dont care at all how my sortie goes as long as i get a squad m8 shot down ( wuaf fun rooms )

it is just a game & should be treated as such ,

people say " i take it seriously " & thats all well & good but ppl who are out to prove themselves as being good , or better than others are egotistical ( in different degrees ) & spoil the fun that ppl who dont care & just want to fly can have

nothing is proven if you play a certian game well or not , as you might be a real jerk or dummie IRL . what does occur tho is a ego stroke in ppl who are out for kills only

GAU_8
12-19-2003, 07:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Future-:
Lol @ Zen.Fighter !

I think you have a lil problem there m8. I really like FB, but I sure like to (make) love (to) my girlfriend A LOT more than anything virtuality can bring up.

S!


- Future

Commanding Officer of the 530th Bomb Squad
380th Bomb Group 5th AF USAAF

http://invisionfree.com:54/40/30/upload/p1083.jpg

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


uhh... ummm future...... he's well,, how shall i put it..er....

hes not the only one. .........dont hurt me...

im a closet "dont sleep with my girl as much anymore because of FB" caser.

sorry http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

GAU_8
12-19-2003, 07:31 PM
how in the hell did that quote get in this thread???? odd.....

GAU_8
12-19-2003, 07:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GAU_8:
how in the hell did that quote get in this thread???? odd.....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

never mind..appparently a second page started lol.....im lost

SeaFireLIV
12-19-2003, 07:55 PM
For me, FB/IL2, has meaning. It represents and honours the valiant men who fought before us in a war that changed the world and our perception of it to this very day. We can only emulate these people through a sim, as a sign of our eternal respect.


(Of course, some see it and play it as a Quake Arena on line. But everything gets abused, but we`ll ignore them http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif).

`Man is an embodied paradox, a bundle of contradictions.` Lacon.

clint-ruin
12-19-2003, 08:53 PM
Il2-FB is indeed just a game - coded by a game studio, published by a games company and sold in all good games retailers, installed on gaming pcs with good 3d graphics and controlled on them by a 'game controller'. Game game game game game. It doesn't matter how many flight jackets or how much whale oil you put on when you're playing - sorry :&lt;

I think to say otherwise really heads down the bad trouser of vulcan ears and medieval re-enactment and people who kill themselves when their favorite RPG character dies. As a hobby flight-simming is fairly harmless unless you count the osteopath bills - it is not crack or scientology or prostitution. That said, if you are leaving your wife unloved or your children shoeless as a result of your hobby, what ever that hobby may be, you need a new hobby.

That judgement aside - I only got into this in the first place because it was the best game to play stoned since Freespace 2.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

Health_Angel
12-19-2003, 09:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
yeah realism went out the window, but we still play and have fun killing each other, oleg doesnt seem to listen to pilots who have experience in vintage warbirds and try to help him out with realism, but its his game and he will do as he pleases. All we can do is have fun and play. I have to disagree with burt eyebrows RBJ, servers like greatergreen, virtual pilots 1 2 and mudmovers have the highest skilled players in them and it makes fr so much fun. mid and externals servers take the fun out of it and makes tactics useless witht he external 6 checking.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very nice! I agree.

-Health Angel-

http://www.uniquehardware.co.uk/server-smilies/otn/violent/bigun2.gif

http://www.jg27-berlin.de/Downloads/II__JG27_Banner/Bannerengel.JPG (http://www.jg27-berlin.de/)

Zitat:
Karen (Tania) Blixen: "When did you learn to fly?"
Denys Finch Hatton: "Yesterday"
(Out of Africa)

V_Flatspin
12-20-2003, 12:15 AM
I don't consider sims as 'games'. Right up there with calling bowling or shuffleboard 'sports'.

http://ivedog.com/assets/images/misc/avatars/avatar_flatspin_001.gif ________________
http://www.the-volunteers.com/

Yum_Yum
12-20-2003, 03:03 AM
Its just a game.

The only part which I think may be near representative of a simulation, is online play based around the interaction and cooperation of virtual people, but thats all!

As for the different settings being more difficult or easier than each other, I think this too is a misslead conception.
Its a game because thats what it is, its full real if thats what you want to believe, its medium settings if thats all your PC can cope with, and its easy settings when you are trying to learn to cope with all the game features.

I imagine the term "Full Real" as meaning "as realistic as possible by PC hardware standards" and as a joke amongst thost who actully fought. It's nice to remember what they had to achieve and something of what they did .. but ours is only a fantasy.

It's just a game with virtual experts in all the various settings.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[This message was edited by Yum_Yum on Sat December 20 2003 at 05:08 AM.]

Antony_B
12-20-2003, 03:13 AM
For me FB is an education, both a history lesson and an insight into what is involved in flying. And great fun too.

Yum_Yum
12-20-2003, 06:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Antony_B:
For me FB is an education, both a history lesson and an insight into what is involved in flying. And great fun too.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree 100% http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

adlabs_6
12-20-2003, 11:30 AM
When I first got into FB, I took much of the campaigns very seriously. But lately, I'm feeling like I'm about done with campaigns in IL2/FB. After playing well over 500-800 campaign sorties, I've played most of what I'm interested in by now, and some of them twice. Online seems to be where I'm at with FB, when I'm playing it. And the online games I don't see as a "war" but more like playing with friends.

RayBanJockey---Check you private topic area.

http://www.geocities.com/adlabs6/B/bin/sigUBI.GIF
My FB page (http://www.geocities.com/adlabs6/B/) | IL2skins (http://www.il2skins.com) | OMEGASQUADRON (http://777avg.com/omegasquad/)

AFJ_Locust
12-20-2003, 12:44 PM
Normaly I see poeple that say "its just a game" right after they steal a clean kill after a long fight.

So you say something to them like hey man why did you steal that kill he was dead ?

And they say hey its just a game take it easy !!

To me its just another copout phraze people use to dismiss there lack of respect for others..

Anyone that flys this sim knows its Intense & lots of fun but sure its just a game http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif if you say so LOL

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1068129235.jpg

WUAF_Badsight
12-20-2003, 01:14 PM
FB is just a computer " GAME "

playing it well or poorly means nothing

its electronic entertainment

Themotorhead
12-20-2003, 01:28 PM
Do you conceder "Football" as a Game or Sport?

That is the answer.

-GOZR

Extreme_One
12-22-2003, 09:58 AM
Never has a mere "game" remained on my hard-drive for such a long time. Not only that but I spend more time on FB than anything else on my PC. I might actually uninstall eveything but Windoze and FB! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I know what you mean Mike.
"Just a game" has just a derogatory feel that it doesn't fit well with most peoples view of FB.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

S! Simon

Download the USAAF campaign folder here (http://www.mudmovers.com/Sims/FB/fb_essential_files.htm).

http://extremeone.4t.com/images/ex1_soon.jpg

JG27_Dacripler
12-22-2003, 10:50 AM
GAME all the way, sorry to disagree with you but .... It's a game. A damn good one at that, although http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

olaleier
12-22-2003, 01:58 PM
Ahh...brilliant topic...tried to reply here two days ago, before Tully sorted my account out...

Why should "game" be something negative or not important?

We live in a world deviod of the challenges are bodies are built to cope with (fight/flee etc). Breakfast/rush hour/work/rush hour/dinner/wife just doesn't cut it, so we entertain ourselves as best we can. Be it skydiving, gocarts, working on old cars, gardening, cinema, music or computer games, it's all just ways of entertaining us, giving us a good time.

Football (what's soccer? and what's this american thing, with helmets and padding and stuff? Pansies!) is just a game too, yet it seems to grab the attention and money of quite a lot of people.

FB is just a game. But for the phrase "it's just a game" to have some controversy about it, it means someone is taking it seriously enough for others to question their judgement. In other words, it's done it's job! Good work Oleg!

Have fun folks. And don't put down other people's idea of a good time.

tsisqua
12-22-2003, 05:39 PM
And the great debate moves from one forum to the next http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.uploadit.org/files/010903-nedChristie.jpg
Tsalagi Asgaya Equa

SKULLS_LZ
12-22-2003, 06:08 PM
I used to look down on the "it's just a game" Air Quake crowd. FB to me was supposed to be about experiencing aircombat in the GPW, as close as the PC can allow to reality. Then I tried No-cockpit, all-Icons, open plane-set DF servers, and found myself enjoying non-stop action "Quake Arena style".

I went into greatergreen yesterday, took off in an I-153, and started thinking to myself "this is HARD!"; I had a decent time and scored a few kills, but it's hard to resist the "instant action", "instant gratification" of "Air Quake".

Moral of the story: stay out of the "No Cockpit" servers or you'll be ruined for Life!!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ask me about my "Free Wing Removal" program. Offer valid while my ammo supplies last.

BfHeFwMe
12-22-2003, 06:43 PM
I'm sure there's plenty of chairborne rangers playing America's Army thinking they're actually soldiering too, who couldn't cough up one pushup if their life counted on it.