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View Full Version : OT: Difference between a supercharger or turborcharger? In Cars



adadaead
05-25-2005, 01:30 PM
For all who like muscle or japanese muscle cars. Can you explain to me the difference between the two chargers. And is there such thing as a turbosupercharger or superturbocharger or a procharger (whatever the right word is)?

By japanese muscle i'm talking about Supras(Twin turbo http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif), rx-7/8, Nissan Skyline, Subaru WRX...etc
I guess there is some European muscle cars except for the exotics but i don't know...
This discussion is open for all you car buffs... if there is any

adadaead
05-25-2005, 01:30 PM
For all who like muscle or japanese muscle cars. Can you explain to me the difference between the two chargers. And is there such thing as a turbosupercharger or superturbocharger or a procharger (whatever the right word is)?

By japanese muscle i'm talking about Supras(Twin turbo http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif), rx-7/8, Nissan Skyline, Subaru WRX...etc
I guess there is some European muscle cars except for the exotics but i don't know...
This discussion is open for all you car buffs... if there is any

beepboop
05-25-2005, 01:38 PM
Both super and turbochargers compress air in order to force more of it into the cylinder, providing more oxygen that allows more fuel to be burnt per stroke. The difference between the two is that a supercharger draws power mechanically from the engine in order to compress the air, whereas a Turbocharger uses the exhaust gasses of the engine, run through a turbine, to power the process.

A turbocharger is more efficient, but cannot be engaged as quickly as a supercharger because it suffers from "turbo lag", caused by the fact that takes time for the turbine to spin up.

jugent
05-25-2005, 01:45 PM
The turbo got its power from exhaust gases, the supercharger its driven mechanically or hydraulically from the engine.
With the turbo you got all extra power at high rpm, like a kick when the turbo starts to charge.

The supercharger is more linear in its pressure.
The purpose over overpressure in the inlet is to fill the cylinders better, is more power, more oxygen, and to give more power at low rpm.
Many high rpm-engines have to little torque on low rpm.

Taylortony
05-25-2005, 01:56 PM
The Turbochargers on most large American Piston Aircraft are called Turbosuperchargers but are just Turbos as you would have on your car just a bit bigger....wanna see? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

You can see the turbo on here behind the engine, before i replaced it with a brand spanking new engine http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif it came with the exhaust and turbo assy but none of the hoses or baffles............ wanna know how much for one, well about 48,000 a couple of years ago for one................................
you can throw on another 1500 to 2000 plus for hoses and baffle parts then there is labour to fit it, total extras i have seen for fitting one of these with add on bits as above ( Not by me BTW ) was well over a cool 10,000

Oh and yes the oil filter does have that support structure above it so it is a pain in the proverbials to remove it or even undo it as a spanner wont fit on...

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/il2skins/Continental.jpg

AerialTarget
05-25-2005, 02:26 PM
Cars bite. Really! You take the best car in the world, and give me the worse airplane in the world, and you'll never catch me.

EmKen
05-25-2005, 05:01 PM
I know it's a truck and marine engine, but the Detroit Diesel series takes some beating. Anything upwards of a V6 (V8, V12, V16 etc), it was a turbo-supercharged, 4 valves per cylinder two-stroke diesel! An engineering masterpiece, but juicy as hell!

EmKen

FI-Aflak
05-25-2005, 08:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AerialTarget:
Cars bite. Really! You take the best car in the world, and give me the worse airplane in the world, and you'll never catch me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i can guaruntee that the fastest car in the world will smoke the slowest airplane in the world . . . .

yeah, diesels basically have to be turboed or they hardly produce enough power to drag their own weight around, let along a truck.

Fun thing about a diesel is, especially with that cummins turbodeisel you can get in Dodge trucks is this: you can up the mixture and the compression to crazy levels and the thing keeps giving you more and more power. sure, its dumping unburned gas out the tailpipe, but the power it gives is incredible. I've got a vid of an F-350 with a Cummins turbodeisel in it (Dodge engine in a Ford truck, I know . .) . . the thing is lifted, has big knobby offroad tires. Not a car you would expect to be overly fast, right? Well its at a drag strip, facing a Supra. lights go green supra jumps ahead, then the F-350 takes off, leaving a black cloud out of the tailpipe and runs a 10.5 or something. That truck does a faster quarter mile than almost all the hypercars you can buy. I think the Enzo runs the 1/4 is 11.something. Of course, the Enzo is going to have a higher top speed and there will be no handling comparison, but for brutal acceleration the giant american diesel truck wins. The race being over, just set your mixture back to normal and drive home, truck as normal as could be.

GAU-8
05-26-2005, 01:09 AM
if i remember correctly..

a SUPERcharger, takes the same power curve of your engine, and litteraly just bumps that curve higher.. making more power thu the entire rev range (but keeping the same curve more or less)

A TURBOcharger, can be tuned for low, mid or high rpm boost.

(more or less in quikest of laymans terms. im sure ill be correted if wrong :P )

bird_brain
05-26-2005, 05:54 AM
Her is what the Eaton mechanical supercharger on my Cobra looks like

http://jyarbrough.homestead.com/Charger.jpg

It's the big grey thing on top. The air is brought in through the throttle body, compressed by the belt driven screw inside the compressor, and forced over a water to air intercooler to inject compressed cold air into the cylinders. (It has it's own radiator as well) It produces 9 lbs of boost and adds appx. 25% more horsepower and torque to the engine.

Here is an aftermarket Procharger system on the new 2005 Mustang;

http://www.procharger.com/images/2005_mustang_uh2.jpg

You can increase the horsepower significantly by increasing airflow into the compressor and reducing backpressure on the exhaust. Read that as a new air intake & larger throttle body as well as tuned headers and low restriction exhaust. You can also increase boost pressure by simply putting a slightly smaller pulley on the compressor, but if you go too far, you will blow up the motor! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

It produces alot more low end torque as well as giving you a wider power curve as mentioned above. increased torque is what you would want to take off quickly without loosing traction and smoking the tires. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

They needed them on high altitude fighters to increase the oxygen level in the fuel/air mixture so it would ignite correctly. On a car, that is usually not a problem. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

tjaika1910
05-26-2005, 06:13 AM
So a supercharger is the same as a compressor?

Thought every engine would need that in thin air, why not a ww2 piston engine?

Kurfurst__
05-26-2005, 06:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tjaika1910:
So a supercharger is the same as a compressor?

Thought every engine would need that in thin air, why not a ww2 piston engine? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, the supercharger and compressor is the same thing. Perhaps it`s the German fondness of marking it as 'Kompressor' on cars what makes the confusion. In their ww2 aero engines, they refer to it as 'Lader', but it`s the same thing.

And yes, 99.9% of the ww2 piston aero engines were supercharged, because of the reason you pointed out, they needed it at altitude, + because of the performance boost (all engines were supercharged with 30-250% higher manifold pressurethan ambient air pressure). The confusion probalbly comes from there were worser and better superchargers... but powerful s/c were also traded low altitude performance for better performance at altitude : they took engine power away when it was not neccesary, though some designs such as Junkers and Daimler Benz employed solved this with hydraulic couplings to the s/c and variable inlets.

More on turbos, from what I heard, they can be annoying in everyday use, you have to run the engine on idle for a minute or two before stopping the car, to allow the turbo blades to gradually cool down. Otherwise they can crack... and that`s expensive. Could be a pain in the ***.

bird_brain
05-26-2005, 06:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
And yes, 99.9% of the ww2 piston aero engines were supercharged, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Unfortunately the P39 @ the beginning of WWII was not. This limited their high altitude performance and meant it could not go above about 15000 feet. The engine lost too much power. When it was designed, the Army did not think they would need it.

You could look here as well;
http://www.aviation-history.com/engines/allison.htm

It supplies a great explanation of gear driven vs. turbosupercharger systems on Allison engines in the P40 and P38.

Kurfurst__
05-26-2005, 08:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bird_brain:
Unfortunately the P39 @ the beginning of WWII was not. This limited their high altitude performance and meant it could not go above about 15000 feet. The engine lost too much power. When it was designed, the Army did not think they would need it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Allisons were supercharged - think about it, if they were not, the engine would immidiately loose power above SL, with the air density dropping - however the superchargers performance was enough only to provide supercharging and constant pressure up to 15 000 feet. That`s not bad btw, rahter typical for early war fighters. Ie. the 109E`s, Spit I`s etc. supercharger could only provide constant pressure up to about 16 000 feet, too. Above that their engine output declined as well.

As I said, the diffo is between how powerful the installed supercharger is, not that it`s supercharged or not. Powerful superchargers are heavier, and take more power away at lower levels, so at low levels you loose power. Ie. the Spit IXF had good performance at 28 000 feet, but it was so-so at lower levels, compared to earlier Spit Vs with less powerful superchargers. The Army seems to thought it`s up to 15 000 feet where fights could happen, so they optimized the plane/engine for that. It`s always a compromise between wheter you require good high alt or low/medium alt performance - unless you employ a hydraulic clutch like DB 60x engines did. Or you can go with a turbocharger, but that`s not well suited for fighters, being large, bulky and expensive and requireing more maintaince.

tjaika1910
05-26-2005, 09:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FI-Aflak:


yeah, diesels basically have to be turboed or they hardly produce enough power to drag their own weight around, let along a truck.

Fun thing about a diesel is, especially with that cummins turbodeisel you can get in Dodge trucks is this: you can up the mixture and the compression to crazy levels and the thing keeps giving you more and more power. sure, its dumping unburned gas out the tailpipe, but the power it gives is incredible. I've got a vid of an F-350 with a Cummins turbodeisel in it (Dodge engine in a Ford truck, I know . .) . . the thing is lifted, has big knobby offroad tires. Not a car you would expect to be overly fast, right? Well its at a drag strip, facing a Supra. lights go green supra jumps ahead, then the F-350 takes off, leaving a black cloud out of the tailpipe and runs a 10.5 or something. That truck does a faster quarter mile than almost all the hypercars you can buy. I think the Enzo runs the 1/4 is 11.something. Of course, the Enzo is going to have a higher top speed and there will be no handling comparison, but for brutal acceleration the giant american diesel truck wins. The race being over, just set your mixture back to normal and drive home, truck as normal as could be. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You must obviously not paid attention to the development to diesel engines last decade. Diesels have a lot more momentum, some cars have incredible torque of 700 Nm combined with lots of horsepowers. A typical car with a diesel is more economic, clean and powerful than a benzin car with the same volume.


Thanks Kurfurst. I wondered what supercharcher was, thought it was something old, like a pre electronic injection or whatever used mainly in american cars.

A low presure turbo, with intercooler does not behave like some posters have implied turbos do. To bad turbo is not fashion at the moment. But I guess diesel is the new thing here. Even BMW had to do something.

ddsflyer
05-26-2005, 11:28 AM
Taylortony,

I thought I recognized a 58P (or TC) Baron. My straight 58 is a whole lot easier (not to mention cheaper) to work on but, alas doesn't go as fast or as high as the turbos do. I just installed a new port engine as well but mine only cost $35,000 US.

Hint: use a shorter CH4108 oil filter instead of the long CH4109. It filters just as well and gives more clearance.

stathem
05-26-2005, 11:41 AM
The Lancia Delta S4 Grp B rally car used to use a 1.8L motor with a supercharger and a turbocharger, something like 500-600 Bhp. The super was used because big turbos in the '80's suffered from severe lag, and the mechanical blower provides more power and torque lower down the rev range. Modern day production turbos use much smaller and lighter impellers which spin up faster at a lower back pressure. The WRC cars of today have a water injection and anti-lag devices in order to reduce turbo lag.