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View Full Version : Almost 36,000 built. How many have been accounted for?



Pirschjaeger
11-26-2005, 06:30 AM
Almost 36,000 Bf109's were built. I have often wondered how many have been accounted for. Does anyone have any info relating to this?

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
11-26-2005, 06:30 AM
Almost 36,000 Bf109's were built. I have often wondered how many have been accounted for. Does anyone have any info relating to this?

Fritz

Low_Flyer_MkII
11-26-2005, 06:37 AM
D.A. Lande. Messerschmitt 109.
ISBN 0-7603-0803-9.
MBI Publishing. USA.

Lists all accounted for surviving aircraft as of 2000.

60 examples of various marks, flying, under restoration or museum displays.

Perhaps some kind soul with a scanner and a copy of said book could assist here - it'll take me ages to type up.

Pirschjaeger
11-26-2005, 06:44 AM
Cool L_Flyer. The reason I am interested in accounted for planes is to have an idea of how many are not accounted for. I figure there must be a lot missing. Also, not just 109's. I wonder how many fighter are MIA.

Fritz

neural_dream
11-26-2005, 07:31 AM
Do u plan to take up aviation archaeology as a hobby, or just asking http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif?

LStarosta
11-26-2005, 07:39 AM
http://www.planepix.com/resources/photos/P51D.Cripes_04_JMD184.lg.jpg

The reason why there aren't many 109's left.

BaldieJr
11-26-2005, 07:57 AM
I can't think of any way to add to this discussion.

OBTW+1

Pirschjaeger
11-26-2005, 09:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by neural_dream:
Do u plan to take up aviation archaeology as a hobby, or just asking http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not just aviation and not archaeology either. I just think there's a lot of stuff from the various wars laying around Europe. I like the outdoors so I figure it's make a nice hobby.

I hope I can cover half as much ground as what Baldie is doing in GD right now. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fritz

fordfan25
11-26-2005, 09:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BaldieJr:
I can't think of any way to add to this discussion.

OBTW+1 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

me eather

SeaNorris
11-26-2005, 10:08 AM
P-51 isn't the reason, the US like to think that, but its actually to do with the grass, because no plane surivives the grass http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

danjama
11-26-2005, 10:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaNorris:
P-51 isn't the reason, the US like to think that, but its actually to do with the grass, because no plane surivives the grass http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Daiichidoku
11-26-2005, 11:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BaldieJr:
I can't think of any way to add to this discussion.

OBTW+1 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

hey now, you know that belongs in the "post count celebration" thread


thanks for the excuse to PC + 1

MEGILE
11-26-2005, 01:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BaldieJr:
I can't think of any way to add to this discussion.

OBTW+1 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

+1

x__CRASH__x
11-26-2005, 01:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LStarosta:
http://www.planepix.com/resources/photos/P51D.Cripes_04_JMD184.lg.jpg

The reason why there aren't many 109's left. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
pffffffffffffft

MEGILE
11-26-2005, 01:57 PM
Disagree Crash? Or have some meat stuck between your teeth?

marc_hawkins
11-26-2005, 03:19 PM
Well, some of those 36,0000 will ahve been reduced to itty, little bits, by (yes) mustangs or whatever, so we can discount those. Many junked into frying pans etc. after the war...BUT there must still be those hidden under earth and the sea somewhere.. who knows, maybe there's one in some russian barn! Not far from my little flat out in the sea in brighton/hove, there could be sat a few....

BaldieJr
11-26-2005, 03:20 PM
36000 or 3600?

MEGILE
11-26-2005, 03:21 PM
36,000 nub.

marc_hawkins
11-26-2005, 03:48 PM
Be fair, i have just come back from the pub http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

SeaNorris
11-26-2005, 03:49 PM
360,000

Luftwaffe would have had three hundred 109's for every one I-16

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

marc_hawkins
11-26-2005, 03:55 PM
I like those odds!

MEGILE
11-26-2005, 03:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaNorris:


Luftwaffe would have had three hundred 109's for every one I-16

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They did.. and still lost.

MB_Avro_UK
11-26-2005, 04:39 PM
And how many Spitfires are left...?

SeaNorris
11-26-2005, 04:43 PM
300,000,000,000,000

Spitfires are left.

Low_Flyer_MkII
11-26-2005, 04:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
And how many Spitfires are left...? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah! Now we're talking. Approximately 50 still in flying condition...I'll have to consult some books for exact numbers in museums.

darkhorizon11
11-26-2005, 07:25 PM
One of my aviation professors is a Vietnam era pilot (Most combat missions in the F4 though thats another story), he said when he was in northern Germany in the sixties it was really flat, except that there were these strange hillsthat were about 300ft high and a half mile long. The local kids would race their bicycles down them. Guess where they came from? Hundreds of warbirds tanks and artillery guns were bulldozed into a pile and covered in dirt.

Guess there really wasn't much interest in warbirds at the time...

Although from what I've seen from kill to victory ratios and LW losses I'd say most were destroyed in the air or on the ground.

LStarosta
11-26-2005, 07:27 PM
They had bikes made from tanks and arty pieces?

Chuck_Older
11-26-2005, 07:47 PM
Thye are recovering combat lost aircraft all the time. But in barns? No, I don't think so.

The best places to find these planes are in cold lakes. In several shallow lakes in Russian Karelia for example, just at or even above the artic circle, several aircraft in remarkably good condition have been recovered in the last 5 years

Remember the P-38 "Glacier Girl"? Similar case, the cold weather really preserved the aircraft, even though it was buried under ice and snow so completely that they basically had to mine it out, and disassamble it to recover the plane

About 10 or 12 years ago a Bf 109, almost certainly flown by Hans-Joachim Marseille for a documentable period was recovered from the former Soviet Union. that plane was in horrible shape. It had been out in the open since it's loss during the war

Especially with the Bf 109, when an aircraft like this, in condition that is so poor from being exposed to the elements for so long (You can't just clean it up and re-wire it, even if it was in one piece, and just parked in the open for 60 years), it is an incredible undertaking to restore the aircraft. "Restore" is a term misunderstood a lot concerning aircraft. With a car, sure, OK, maybe a lot of it is still usable. With an airplane, uh-uh, if it's corroded, it's replaced, end of story. Corroded mainspar? You're not flying

And the Bf 109 is a special challenge even after all that is considered. The way the aluminum was made and formed, and the way the various structural parts were manufactured, is pretty much unique to the airplane. The tooling just doesn't exist to make the stuff properly anymore (or didn't until they restored the plane Marseille had flown). It's not like ordering up some 3003 aluminum and forming it. The tooling blocks that had to be made to make the correct parts for the restoration of that 109 I am mentioning was in itself an incrediblee challenge that required a huge amount of research

In post-war Europe, things like aircraft were a valuable source of scrap metals- not as nostalgia. They needed to rebuild their countries, cities, businesses, and lives. Those planes that weren't wanted were stripped, and destroyed, or else bulldozed into aircraft 'graves' as mentioned. The allies took examples of Axis planes to their countries, evaluated them...and in most cases scrapped them after a short time.

You want to know what happened to most of those 36,000 Bf 109s? Most of them were destroyed. if you find one out in the open, it is a crash site.

Crash sites are a special case because if a pilot or crewmember is still inside the aircraft, technically it is a War Grave and in most cases illegal to recover. A notable exception occured recently, when they didn't know that a pilot's remains were still inside until after the plane was recovered

plumps_
11-26-2005, 08:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by darkhorizon11:
One of my aviation professors is a Vietnam era pilot (Most combat missions in the F4 though thats another story), he said when he was in northern Germany in the sixties it was really flat, except that there were these strange hillsthat were about 300ft high and a half mile long. The local kids would race their bicycles down them. Guess where they came from? Hundreds of warbirds tanks and artillery guns were bulldozed into a pile and covered in dirt. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
He flew over these hills but did he really know what they consisted of? I can hardly believe that materials like steel and aluminium were simply buried in the earth instead of recycling them.

There are several hills in Germany that were piled up from the debris of the bombed cities, i.e. they mainly consist of destroyed building materials. But an isolated hill that's 300 feet high and half a mile long is probably either a moraine formed during the ice age, or a mining dump.

berg417448
11-26-2005, 09:14 PM
Some 109 parts may even be buried here:

http://www.indianamilitary.org/FreemanAAF/Museum/FF_museum.html

Daiichidoku
11-26-2005, 10:45 PM
glacier girl reminds me of B 29 "Kee Bird" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

the thing was "like new", up in greenland

a team spent some time refurbishing it...

during taxi runs prepatory of flying it home, an APC that was left running became dislodged in the rear fuselage, fuel spill, ignition...

in about 20 minutes all that was left was the wings and tail, left to be swallowed up by the fozen lake it was left on, during the next spring/summer's thaw

p1ngu666
11-27-2005, 12:48 AM
theres lots of spits about actully, at duxford you will easily get 10+flying at the same time.

theres TONS of p51's about too

Slater_51st
11-27-2005, 01:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
But in barns? No, I don't think so.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oo! I'd like to make note of the 2 P-38s restored in Southern Oregon, then moved to the Tillamook NAS Air Museum. My uncle, a P-38 buff, had a friend working on the restoration, and has about an hour of video(including first flight).

Both P-38s were stored in a California barn for a number of years, so don't rule it out as "never going to happen" Also, I think someone earlier posted a picture of a junkyard near their home in Europe that had a B-24 wing section, and a pair of P-47 drop tanks.

Not saying these are common, it's actually really interesting where this stuff can end up.

S! Slate

IL2-chuter
11-27-2005, 03:02 AM
Of the "36,000" (I think 33,000 might be a minor stretch) Me109s built a notable number entirely open to debate and conjecture were recycled airframes. The 109 in the Smithsonian (and their 190 for that matter) has two serial numbers so it counts as two of those many birds. If I recall correctly there were never more than about 2,000 (maybe 2,500) or so 109s in (meaningful) existance at any given point in time. In November of '44 the non-combat losses (poor pilot training, poor maintainance/servicing, poor field/weather conditions) slightly exceeded combat losses for a total of about 750 lost. (Reaching deep into the cobwebs there. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif) Planes were being lost as fast as they were being made. A heck of a way to run a war.


PS. I am the proud owner of a 109 gas cap and an original full size photo copy of an original 109 rigging print I actually almost drooled on. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

SeaNorris
11-27-2005, 04:18 AM
If I remember so, the IL-2 was the most produced plane of the war with 42,000 or 36,000, I don't know how much exactly though, the Black Death was the most built http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Low_Flyer_MkII
11-27-2005, 04:56 AM
What's 6,000 between friends, eh?

Chuck_Older
11-27-2005, 07:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Slater_51st:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
But in barns? No, I don't think so.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oo! I'd like to make note of the 2 P-38s restored in Southern Oregon, then moved to the Tillamook NAS Air Museum. My uncle, a P-38 buff, had a friend working on the restoration, and has about an hour of video(including first flight).

Both P-38s were stored in a California barn for a number of years, so don't rule it out as "never going to happen" Also, I think someone earlier posted a picture of a junkyard near their home in Europe that had a B-24 wing section, and a pair of P-47 drop tanks.

Not saying these are common, it's actually really interesting where this stuff can end up.

S! Slate </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But Slater, we are not talking about a country like the United States that wasn't a part of the front line of combat. Surely you see that having a couple P-38s like these, which were surplus and purchased and stored in a barn as private property, is a world different from what I'm talking about. I am addressing what happened to planes like the Bf 109 that were widely produced and now rare. If the US had lost the war and was in a shambles, do you think those P-38s would have ended up in a barn? Besides, where in Europe http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif is Oregon anyway? I can't find it on my Globe

An enthusiast in the US had ample opportunity to purchase US combat aircraft at cut-rate prices. I do not beleive for a moment that Bf 109s were offered up for sale as surplus after the war, although they were license built in other countries. We are talking apples and oranges

marc_hawkins
11-27-2005, 08:52 AM
Well, the barn idea was more idle fantasy than suggestion... by the way, does anybody know what happened to the 'Lady Be Good' the B 24 that was found in the Lybian desert? last i'd heard was that it had been mostly stripped by various people and the airframe was removed to storage by the lybian government. Any plans for it?

Slater_51st
11-27-2005, 02:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Slater_51st:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
But in barns? No, I don't think so.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oo! I'd like to make note of the 2 P-38s restored in Southern Oregon, then moved to the Tillamook NAS Air Museum. My uncle, a P-38 buff, had a friend working on the restoration, and has about an hour of video(including first flight).

Both P-38s were stored in a California barn for a number of years, so don't rule it out as "never going to happen" Also, I think someone earlier posted a picture of a junkyard near their home in Europe that had a B-24 wing section, and a pair of P-47 drop tanks.

Not saying these are common, it's actually really interesting where this stuff can end up.

S! Slate </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But Slater, we are not talking about a country like the United States that wasn't a part of the front line of combat. Surely you see that having a couple P-38s like these, which were surplus and purchased and stored in a barn as private property, is a world different from what I'm talking about. I am addressing what happened to planes like the Bf 109 that were widely produced and now rare. If the US had lost the war and was in a shambles, do you think those P-38s would have ended up in a barn? Besides, where in Europe http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif is Oregon anyway? I can't find it on my Globe

An enthusiast in the US had ample opportunity to purchase US combat aircraft at cut-rate prices. I do not beleive for a moment that Bf 109s were offered up for sale as surplus after the war, although they were license built in other countries. We are talking apples and oranges </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lol Chuck,

Point taken, I guess I missed the "europe only" part of the discussion http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Sadly, my guess would be most if WWII birds from any country, met their end in a scrap yard sooner or later. I mean, in the 60s or 70s, the Japanese went island to island in the pacific picking up Zero carcasses and melting them down for resources. Now that's sad!

I would, however, be very curious to see how many aircraft wrecks are in Russia. Western Europe is a relatively small area compared to Russia, and only relatively recently has Russian been open to western searchers. Plus, the cold in some locals seems like it'd be better for preserving a/c. Not to mention the fact more aircraft were operated and destroyed there than any place I can think of!

Just my .02c

S! Slater