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Waldo.Pepper
04-24-2009, 04:14 AM
Like the topic title suggests YOU! Yes YOU! Have the chance to be a hero. Take a look at the following picture.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/book/mystery/Page2.jpg

Notice the antenna?

It is in fact a half dipole partial Yagi array.
They appear on some B-24's, never another type.
They are on both sides of the aircraft just below the flight deck in this cheek position.
Sometimes they are positioned somewhat lower down like in this picture.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/book/mystery/Page3.jpg

So far near a hundred and fifty installations of this equipment have been found.
The B-24's with this mystery installation, only appear on aircraft in the Pacific Theatre of Operations (PTO). Only on B-24's in US service. Never on B-24's in Commonwealth service.

They are installed from early 1943 to the end of hostilities.
And nobody knows what they were for. Many B-24 Pacific war veterans have been asked already but none know what they are.

If you can ask someone who has a personal connection to B-24's who either flew on them or worked on them in the PTO - then YOU can be a hero.

And if you come up with anything, please let me know. As I am working with a group who is pulling their hair out trying to figure it out.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/book/mystery/detail-1.jpg

Waldo.Pepper
04-24-2009, 04:14 AM
Like the topic title suggests YOU! Yes YOU! Have the chance to be a hero. Take a look at the following picture.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/book/mystery/Page2.jpg

Notice the antenna?

It is in fact a half dipole partial Yagi array.
They appear on some B-24's, never another type.
They are on both sides of the aircraft just below the flight deck in this cheek position.
Sometimes they are positioned somewhat lower down like in this picture.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/book/mystery/Page3.jpg

So far near a hundred and fifty installations of this equipment have been found.
The B-24's with this mystery installation, only appear on aircraft in the Pacific Theatre of Operations (PTO). Only on B-24's in US service. Never on B-24's in Commonwealth service.

They are installed from early 1943 to the end of hostilities.
And nobody knows what they were for. Many B-24 Pacific war veterans have been asked already but none know what they are.

If you can ask someone who has a personal connection to B-24's who either flew on them or worked on them in the PTO - then YOU can be a hero.

And if you come up with anything, please let me know. As I am working with a group who is pulling their hair out trying to figure it out.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/book/mystery/detail-1.jpg

b2spirita
04-24-2009, 04:25 AM
I strongly suspect that you already have this, or that it will be no use whatsoever, but it may help. Theres an article on its history half way down.

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Yagi_antenna

KG26_Alpha
04-24-2009, 03:04 PM
See my later posts

Waldo.Pepper
04-24-2009, 05:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by b2spirita:
I strongly suspect that you already have this, or that it will be no use whatsoever, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But thanks for trying. You are a hero in my book.

Some expanding on the history section from the link posted, for any interested parties.

"A horizontally polarized array can be seen under the left leading edge of Grumman F4F, F6F"

On these aircraft what I think the article is referring to is an installation of the AN/APA-48 Homing attachment. This rarely seen installation is depicted in this very poor image. The only one I have ever seen

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/radar/1.jpg

So if anyone has a better image, send it to me please.

On the TBF Avenger this section is referring to the installation of a radar called ASB, seen here, tucked discreetly under the outboard starboard wing.

http://www.uboat.net/allies/aircraft/photos/avenger.jpg[

And lastly the article mentions ... "Vertically polarized arrays can be seen on the cheeks of the P-61." Seen here just on front of the propeller arc.

http://www.aviastar.org/pictures/usa/northrop_widow.jpg

And on this aircraft they are for the Rebecca/Eureka transponding radio homing beacon. In which the Eureka ground emitter responded to queries from an airborne Rebecca interrogator. Thus guiding the aircraft back to base.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KG26_Alpha:
Looks Like Mk II IFF (1942) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are several possibilities of what it was. And that is the problem.

Because it only is seen on PTO aircraft, I see that as a valuable clue which leads to this question.

What was different in the PTO, compared to Europe?

And that question leads to some possibilities. Such as... (and other to boot!)

1. They are jamming antenna peculiar to countering Japanese transmitters. (Hmm - maybe. But why so many. And they don't look like those installed on other aircraft such as B-29's which were converted to the role of Guardian Angels/Porcupines which were those that provided ESM cover to other B-29's at night).

2. They are a homing beacon. Needed due to long over water flights by small (smaller) formations of aircraft.
(Again possible, but why are these peculiar to B-24's only? And other B-24's in the PTo do have SCR-729 Rebecca/Eureka installed, like on the P-61 above. So why these?)

3. They are somehow associated with a radar and an attack profile called LAB (Low Altitude Bombing.) Which was used at night and took a devastating toll on Japanese shipping.

There are too many pros and cons against each of these possibilities. And as a result, there is never the possibility of a definitive conclusion.

Last month I thought I had it nailed down - for sure! I wrote 16 pages on the antenna. Incredibly elaborate proof that they were definitely this and that. And then a few days ago I found an article in a technical journal, Aerospace and Electronic Systems Magazine, IEEE from 1993, which may doom my whole thesis. Or maybe not.(Grrr to the power of 10!)

--

What is going to be needed is a document or a Veteran who can say with certainty what the hell these things are.

It is one of those maddening intractable things that so far defies solution. So if anyone can ask their Uncle or Gramps, maybe it can get solved. And I can get some sleep again! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

KG26_Alpha
04-25-2009, 07:10 AM
I thought I had seen and read about these antenna, from one of my books.

It is not the SCR-717 radar system though.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v119/alpha1/B24Dradar.jpg

Waldo.Pepper
04-25-2009, 07:12 PM
Thanks Alpha - Grateful for the help. [What book is that from?]

This might sound a little funny. Like I am being un grateful - or unfairly critical of the book's author. Especially when I do not know the book!

But I think that even though he ID's it vaguely as 'sea search radar', without mentioning the type, it may be the case that the author is possibly guessing. It is common for books to phrase things purposefully vaguely when the exact facts are not known. Still I think given what the caption says that book agrees with (well conforms with) my theory.

I 'think' I know that they are part of the AN/APQ-5 installation, which was an adjunct to SCR-717 radar (which replaces the ball turret) on some B-24's. And the caption in your picture which ID's it (vaguely) as "sea search radar" Is just broad enough and vague enough to be in conformity with my theory.

The SCR-717 and the AN/APQ-5, and a radar altimeter AN/APN-1 were installed on some aircraft and used for nocturnal anti-shipping strikes from low altitude.

There are a couple of things wrong with that theory of mine. In the equipment listing for the AN/APQ-5 there is no mention of an antenna at all. But this in itself is not too damning. (Not listing the antenna is not unheard of). The second thing that shoots my theory down is that not all known LAB bombers are pictured with them installed. (But that can be explained away thusly. Those aircraft, when pictured, could have had the equipment pulled and installed on other aircraft, which was not unheard of when the aircraft is tour expired. (Grrr again.)

Whatever it is, it is clear that the area of interest, or focus of the aerials is ahead of the aircraft. [This tends to rule out IFF, as you would not normally care about directionality with an IFF antenna.]

I could go on (and have for 16 pages or so). But don't wish to be too boring.

Thanks again.

Dance
04-25-2009, 07:28 PM
The book is 'B-24 Liberator at War' by Robert Freeman if I'm not mistaken, the book only mentions (other than the caption) the fitting of some 'early primitive radar' (to that particular aircraft anyway).

mortoma
04-25-2009, 08:39 PM
I used to be a Amateur or "Ham" radio operator so I know something about antennas. Seems to me they must be directional so maybe they are for radio direction finding equipment?

mortoma
04-25-2009, 08:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dance:
The book is 'B-24 Liberator at War' by Robert Freeman if I'm not mistaken, the book only mentions (other than the caption) the fitting of some 'early primitive radar' (to that particular aircraft anyway). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>True, a lot of old radar antenna looked similar.

ImMoreBetter
04-25-2009, 09:43 PM
Have you read this (http://forum.armyairforces.com/LAB-B24-Radar-Systems-m84332.aspx) yet? They mention the same antenna.

Some of the links to the pictures that they have are broke'd, but I found them here (http://www.b24bestweb.com/Pics-P-PREGNANT_P-PRES.htm).

I tried sifting through it all. Didn't make much sense to me, perhaps you will understand it better. Be sure to read the whole thread.

Waldo.Pepper
04-25-2009, 10:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImMoreBetter:
Have you read </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup. Been reading emails from them and others for a few years now. Also in contact with the owner of this site as well.

http://jproc.ca/ve3fab/b24rfit.html

It is a collective effort to solve this. And I thought that I'd involve the big brains over here in the Il-2 community as well. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Waldo.Pepper
04-26-2009, 12:47 AM
My theory briefly stated. (This IS brief! I have omitted some supporting info.)

Part 1

This is SCR-521, an ASV (Anti-Surface Vessel) radar, as installed on a B-17.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/Radar/radar-p66.jpg

And this is "Dinky."

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/Radar/dinkyfulllength.jpg

Dinky is or rather might be a really special ship. If you look closely, you can see a Yagi Antenna on the nose. The Mystery antenna on the cheeks. And --

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/Radar/Dinky_rearaerials.jpg

-- on this close up, which is of better quality of the rear of "Dinky," there are the remaining antenna of what looks like the standard SCR-521 install. (The only difference is that the homing receivers are replaced with the mystery ones below the flight deck.)

So this implies that these mystery antenna are receivers. Just determining that is progress. (Can I have a big woo hoo? - Sure WOO HOO!)

Part 2.

In Radar in World War 2 - Guerlic on page p 377 writes -

"A program to equip two B-24's with BASV (bombing ASV), or LAB (low-altitude bombing), as it was later called, was instituted immediately." ... and ... "The ASV used was the SCR-517 ... and ... "The same day the plane was ordered to Africa; a new plane was not received until December, thus setting the project back two months."

This website ID's "Dinky" as one of two... etc.

http://www.b24bestweb.com/dinky1.htm

So could this mean that this was the same aircraft used to develope LAB in the Guerlac qquote above? Maybe.

The Joe Baugher Serial number search site -

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher/usafserials.html (http://home.att.net/%7Ejbaugher/usafserials.html)

Has the following entry for the serial number for "Dinky"

"40325 (90th BG, 320th BS) condemned in accident Jun 4, 1945.
Also listed as being lost Aug 1, 1943 on Ploesti raid but this may be 42-40375."

Thus opening the possibility that "Dinky" was lost on the Ploesti raid. Which could mean that it could have been the one that was yanked away from the development program and shipped to Africa. As a precursor to participating on the Ploesti raid.


There are aircraft seen with all the antenna of the "Dinky" install. Except for the nose transmitter Yagi and the Search transmitter along the spine of the fuselage.

They have the cheek ones and the ones along the sides of the fuselage below the waist gunners.

On the "Dinky" install all these would be receivers. Which means that there is a missing transmitter. Whose duties are taken over in my theory by the SCR-717 transmitter located in the position of the ball turret.

But the cheek ones are also retained to act as the Homing antenna during the final stages on an anti-shipping strike. Sometimes the rear fuselage receivers are also retained. But also sometimes they are deemed superfluous.

All a theory with no proof. Bugger.

KG26_Alpha
04-26-2009, 10:13 AM
This excerpt from an interview might help with your research, I cant remember where I got it from ages ago but the DMS-1000 reference is interesting.

This could be why I originally quoted MKII IFF

Dr. Denis Robinson

ASV Radar

Robinson:

Oh, unbelievably so. I was able to follow that in the anti-submarine/anti-U-boat war. That became more important to me than anything else.

Bryant:

One of the things that the Tizard Mission brought was a 200-megahertz air-to-surface vessel (ASV) radar, and it was installed on American aircraft. And places such as Philco Corporation manufactured thousands of the ASV Mark II.

Robinson:

I went through the Philco Labs at that time.

Bryant:

So our first operational ASVs were the 200-megahertz radars with the Yagi antennas outside the aircraft.

Robinson:

We know that they were better than nothing, and they gave the U-boats a lot to worry about.

Bryant:

So when was microwave ASV first operational?

Robinson:

I can't give you a date. I know that I went to some place in Devon or Cornwall, and there was a whole squadron that had microwave 9-centimeter magnetrons.

Bryant:

Was that British manufacture?

Robinson:

Some of them were British, and some were U.S. I haven't told you this: When I told DuBridge what I'd been sent over to do, he said, "Fine, we'll arrange that we'll make ten of these things for you here in Radiation Lab." They were called DMS 1000. Nothing to do with my name. I was given complete authority to have it designed the way I wanted it and so on, to be put in the B-24s.

Bryant:

This was microwave ASV equipment?

Robinson:

Yes, with the magnetron and all. And it had the TR box. It had everything that MIT and TRE then had. And they started the first one of those, which was only a prototype. It was ready in March of 1942, and I flew with it across the Atlantic and took it first to TRE to show them but didn't demonstrate it there. They sent me to Northern Ireland with it, and we had a rather small British submarine on the lake there, one of the big lakes in Northern Ireland. And we got results, at all different heights, all kinds of this, that and the other. I flew back to London to see Air Marshall Joubert. Are you familiar with that name? I think he had the responsibility for all short-wave radar at the time. I went to see him at one of the big air bases, and he said, "Robinson, what the hell are you sitting there for? Get back across to America and get more of these!" I'd brought him the results, and they were clearly better than anything the British had then.

Bryant:

That's fast action! I mean, to have it operational in March [Chuckling] of '42. That's pretty remarkable.

Robinson:

That's right. And of course there were big quarrels between the Air Force and the other people as to who was to do it and so on. But the following year we had a big set-to about H2S and H2X. And I'd come to England and was sat down...

Oh, I should have told you. I have to go back a bit. In 1943 suddenly DuBridge called me in and said, "Robinson, I haven't got any American to demonstrate the 3-centimeter search radar to Lord Cherwell, who is here with the Prime Minister in Washington. He wants to see it. I want you to go to Washington this morning and demonstrate it to him." [Chuckling] They were staying at the Mayflower Hotel. I was told to go to Room 506 or something and knock at the door. And sure enough, there was Cherwell. Morning coat, beautiful tie, stickpin, all the rest. "Oh, Robinson! I'm so glad you're here." We knew each other. "Please come in and sit down. I can't go until the PM is asleep." The PM I knew this took an afternoon nap, you see. This was about two o'clock, and he'd had plenty to drink. So I sat there for a few minutes chatting with Cherwell, and then an aide in a splendid RAF uniform came out and said, "Sir, the PM is asleep." "All right," says Cherwell, "We can go. Come on, Robinson." We went down the elevator, and there was a tremendous long Cadillac with diplomatic flags and everything. He said, "Get in." So I got in, and there was a nice Jamaican guy, and he tucked me in although it was not cold. I said, "Thank you very much. And he said in the most beautiful English, "Yes, we English do like our comfort, don't we, sir?" [Chuckling] So we drove off. We were to go to the Naval base. That was where the small AT-11 trainer was fitted with this thing [H2X radar]. The guards, overwhelmed by this Cadillac and all the flags, just waved us through. I was used to checking in.

Then Cherwell said to me, "Well, do you know where this is?" I said, "Yes, you see over there? In the far distant corner." We went through without any permission or anything. We drove right over. There was this nice marine, a U.S. marine, who was the pilot. He knew me, fortunately. We got in, and Cherwell said, "Robinson, do you mind if I go up in the copilot seat until we're airborne? Then when it's really running nicely, tell me, and I'll come back and look." And I heard him on the intercom say to the pilot, "When we're airborne, do you mind if I take over?" [Laughter] Here was Cherwell in this perfect morning dress bowler hat, everything. Anyway, Cherwell did take over. After a time, I had a most perfect picture. I'll just show you what kind of pictures we were getting then. This was the only 3-centimeter working unit, you see. The only one in the world. And I was demonstrating it to Cherwell. Cherwell was absolutely delighted. He said, "Robinson, I understand you're going to be in London next week. Before you do anything else, I want you to come to No. 11 Downing Street and see me." I was scared stiff because this was the sort of the picture that he had seen. But this photo shows the B24 plane that I actually went over in. You don't need to look through these. You've seen so many of them, these pictures.

Bryant:

And that's a radar map of the ground?

Robinson:

That's right. I had the Potomac. I've forgotten whether I've got the Potomac in here, but you could see every little thing. Here's Long Island, see.

Bryant:

A radar map of New York City, looking out to Long Island.

Robinson:

Yes. Anyway, it was perfect. You could see everything on the Potomac. So Cherwell climbs down out of this AT-11, and the Marine lieutenant stops a moment to say, "Gee," he said, "you got anymore in the House of Lords like that?" [Laughter] So I said, "No, not many." And I said, "How did he fly?" He said "He's all right. He's all right." So I said "Did you know that he was the guy that showed the Royal Air Force in the First World War how to get out of a spin?" Did you know that? Cherwell, yes. He was a courageous guy and a very clever one. He put the airplane in a spin, and then he showed them how to get out of it. So he was able to pilot anything. I said to the marine lieutenant, "Well, what did you expect, anyway?" He said, "Well, I did expect to see some ermine, a tiara, a crown or something with some red." [Chuckling]

Just at this moment, while he was saying this to me, the admiral in charge of the base appears, red-faced. Wants to know how the hell we got on that base of his and into his plane without checking with him. You see, he was offended because here was the Prime Minister's No. 1 man who had come onto his base, and he wanted to be there to receive him. [Chuckling] DuBridge got this complaint the next morning. When I got back, DuBridge asked me, "How did this happen?" and then he said, "I'll settle it. Don't worry. He was just mad."

So we went back in this precious Cadillac, and I got off at the Mayflower. And Cherwell said, "Don't forget, the first day you're there you are to see me at No. 11." Of course you know and I know what No. 11 means next door to the Prime Minister. So I thought: Robinson, this is the only working 3-centimeter airborne radar in the world, and it's working beautifully. But if I go in to No. 11, Cherwell will say, "Now, how can we get this instead of our H2S?" I knew his characteristics. He was going to have it all cancelled and get everything changed over. So I thought I'd better go to the Air Ministry first. And I did. And they said, Oh, my God! Oh, my God! [Chuckling] I told them this was beautiful. I showed them pictures. It's the only one that exists. It'll be nine months to a year before we get even enough for the American Navy alone at least a year. So they said, "The last thing we want is to have questions get into the H2S [program]." The sets were just getting out into the field. So I didn't go to No. 11. They begged me not to go see Cherwell. Well, three days later I was at a big meeting at the Air Ministry. And there was one of these half-a-block-long green baize tables. Around it were all the air marshals and admirals and so on. Enough gold braid to give a perfectly good radar echo. [Chuckling] It was all very quiet and orderly.

DuBridge had come across the Atlantic and was there. And Rabi, I think. And Dee P.I. Dee and the civilian hierarchy of the radar business. I've forgotten at what point but I know that Dee got on his high horse. He was very, very direct, and he said, "I do not understand, sir." There was somebody an air marshal in charge. "I do not understand why we British are being forced to take the American 3-centimeter radar instead of the one we've got." And blah, blah, blah, you see. I thought, My God, they're being forced? Who's forcing them? The Americans haven't got them, so I appealed to DuBridge. I said, "Isn't the one I demonstrated to Lord Cherwell the only one in the whole United States?" "That's right." [Chuckling] DuBridge said, "I'm not aware that we're trying to force the British to take these. If we had any of them, we'd soon know where to put them." So then the big double doors of this magnificent apartment swung open. Aides side-to-side. And in comes Cherwell, complete with morning coat, stickpin and all. Everybody stood up. Every air marshal in the place. We all stood up. I didn't like it. I felt that this was the beginnings of some kind of fascism, you know, because he was just the representative. He was representing the big boss. But I stood up. Cherwell was sort of nodding to people. Then he suddenly saw me. He said, "You never came to see me!" [Laughter] That was all. But they knew, of course, by now everybody had the story. The H2S went on and did a good job, as you know. It would have been even better if it had been X-Band, but who knows? It would have taken a long time.

Bryant:

Operational use of the American X-Band H2X lagged the H2S by more than a year, did it?

Robinson:

Oh, more than a year for sure.

Bryant:

And in the meantime you made good use of the H2S.

Robinson:

Oh, no question. Of course, in the meantime, we'd had this whole business about the window, the chaff, you know. I wasn't particularly involved with that, but it was a great fight. [Chuckling] And then we also had the thing that we were supposed to have alongside every magnetron, a focused charge that was to blow up the magnetron.

Bryant:

For security, every equipment had a charge that would destroy the magnetron in case it crashed or something.

Robinson:

Yes, that's right. Now, I've talked a lot. Do you want to ask me some more, John?

Dance
04-26-2009, 06:06 PM
So far I have only found another reference without detail, mentioning sea-search radar.

http://www.b24bestweb.com/images/B24/FOOLSPARADISE2.JPG

"Shown with Sea-Search Radar with Perspex strip across the antennae"

http://search.freefind.com/fin...&mode=ALL&search=all (http://search.freefind.com/find.html?oq=radar&id=47862833&pageid=r&lang=en&_charset_=&bcd=&scs=1&query=antenna&Find=Search&mode=ALL&search=all)

See the first item in the list.

Your theory seems to fit pretty well given the shortage of information, though I'm not sure about the 'Yagi' reference. They are like t.v. aerials and point forward from what I gather.

You've probably come across this book in your searches, but in case you haven't.

http://home.st.net.au/~dunn/books/snoopers.htm (http://home.st.net.au/%7Edunn/books/snoopers.htm)

I'll keep my eyes open in the meantime. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Waldo.Pepper
04-26-2009, 10:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KG26_Alpha:
I cant remember where I got it from ages ago but the DMS-1000 reference is interesting. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I found it here.

http://www.ieeeghn.org/wiki/in...obinson_Oral_History (http://www.ieeeghn.org/wiki/index.php/Denis_M._Robinson_Oral_History) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Neat story too isn't it. Love the description of Professor Lindemann aka Lord Cherwell. (He was such a d1ck! But he comes off as a pretty cool ol' bird in this interview though.)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dance:
So far I have only found another reference without detail, mentioning sea-search radar. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

B-24 Best Web is an interesting site. I downloaded the whole site a while back using HT Track. All 554meg of it. (I am sure that the site admin loved me that day!) I have gone over it with a fine tooth comb a few times.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dance:
Your theory seems to fit pretty well given the shortage of information, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks, but really if it holds up I'll be rather surprised. I think it is rather thin myself. I am rather skeptical, and I would not be surprised in the slightest if it falls apart.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dance:
though I'm not sure about the 'Yagi' reference. They are like t.v. aerials and point forward from what I gather.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Correct - here is a little summary on a typical Yagi antenna. (Though when used as a transmitter).

Also - One of the great ironies of the development and use of radar during the war is that it was a Japanese engineer who invented the Yagi (and also lending it his name). But they did not think to use it in a radar application until Singapore fell. Then they had an intelligence windfall capturing a British SLC radar which used the antenna to aim searchlights. They also captured a document that in Japanese circles came to be known as the "Newman Document." Which was helpful in explaining the SLC radar. The Newman Document survived the war and is today preserved in Tohoku University.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/radar/yagi2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/radar/yagi1.jpg

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dance:
You've probably come across this book in your searches, but in case you haven't. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup sure have, but I haven't got my hot little hands on it yet. I did arrange for my local library to bring into town for me. I only did this a few days ago. The process usually takes a few weeks.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dance:
I'll keep my eyes open in the meantime. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fala! (thanks).

I am getting a little hopeful that if I shake enough trees, something may someday turn up. Fingers crossed.

WTE_Galway
04-26-2009, 10:40 PM
Seems to be a forward pointing array with the first two dipole directors, the third active and the rear one a reflector.


If you have the dimensions of the dipoles it should be a relatively simple matter to calculate the frequencies the antennae was designed to work at.

That should narrow down the possibilities a bit.

Waldo.Pepper
04-27-2009, 01:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
If you have the dimensions of the dipoles it should be a relatively simple matter to calculate the frequencies the antennae was designed to work at. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nothing is known about them with any certainty other than what can be deduced, or perhaps only supposed from the picture.

Determining the dimensions may be possible from the picture. But knowing them approximately would be nice. But then there is really no known place to take or go with the information, sadly.

Also I neglected to comment fully on DME-1000.

They made 17 of these. Fourteen of them went to the British for use in Liberators of Coastal Command. And so far as is known the program ends there. Page 276 of Guerlac describes it thusly.

"At the end of July 1941, D.M. Robinson of the British Air Commission arrived at the Radiation Laboratory to explore the possibility of acquiring a small number of microwave ASV sets for use by the RAF Coastal Command. These sets were to be installed in Liberator bombers being supplied to Britain under lend-lease. Two specially modified Liberators, known as Dumbo I and Dumbo II because the bulbous radar dome beneath the nose enhanced the planes' already elephantine appearance, were equipped with prototype units of microwave ASV during the winter of 1941-42. The Dumbo I equipment flew for the first time from the East Boston Airport on December 11, 1941, the day Germany and Italy declared war on the United States. It was successfully demonstrated shortly thereafter to British and American officers and was flown to the United Kingdom in March 1942, where it underwent trials in Northern Ireland during April. The second Liberator was rapidly equipped and demonstrated at the end of April to the Secretary of War, General Marshall, General Arnold and other high-ranking officers. These two systems served as prototypes for a crash program of 17 similar systems manufactured by the Research Construction Corporation, of which 14 were for the British. The first of these DMS-1000 sets was handed over to the British representative in August 1942; the remainder were delivered by December 1942. They were able to play a valuable part in the battles against the submarines in the Bay of Biscay."

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/radar/Dumbo.jpg

This is the ASV install that they are describing. Note the bulbous nose which contains what it essential the same radar scanner which was developed for the H2S/H2X series.

Jungmann
04-27-2009, 10:11 AM
Hi Waldo. Got another reference for you that might help--came across it by accident in an Amazon search.

The B-24 in China, A.B. Feuer

"This book records the World War II experiences of Captain Elmer E Haynes, who flew low-altitude night radar strikes against Japanese shipping in the South China Sea and daylight raids against various enemy land-based installations in eastern and central China. Haynes flew secretly developed B-24 Liberator bombers that were equipped with radar that had been integrated with the Norden Bombsight for night missions. These B-24s operated with the 14th Air Force - General Chennault's Flying Tigers. The bombing attacks were so accurate and successful that, in a little over a year, Haynes and his fellow pilots sank approximately a million tons of Japanese shipping."

Waldo.Pepper
04-27-2009, 09:07 PM
Thanks Jungmann. I just had a look at the preview, read the whole thing. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Not bad!

I just found the book online for 2 bucks. If the book contributes a nugget or two, to an understanding, then that's 2 bucks of the household budget that was well spent! (My Wife may disagree - but what does she know.)

jarink
05-13-2009, 06:25 PM
I just had to dredge this up when I saw this picture today...

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c1/jarink/7AFB-17.jpg

All I know is that the picture was supposedly taken on Hawaii. No s/n or any other details, unfortunately.

HINT: look under the co-pilot's window....

Esel1964
05-13-2009, 06:51 PM
My Grandfather worked at the factory in Ft. Worth,TX,but his long since passed.
I'm a licensed ham radio operator,and they appear to be of a length that would operate in the 400 Mhz range(assuming they're 1/4 wavelength,which is one of the most common),give or take a little.Many of the earlier posts seem to be dead on,they're either for radar(though modern radar yagis have many more elements),or radio navigation equipment.

icrash
05-13-2009, 07:11 PM
It doesn't help, but I can add a few more B-24's to the list by their nose art name:

Red Butts

The Peter Heater

Bomb Baby; B-24j 42-72976; Kwajalein July 1944

Battling Hornet; Kwajalein July 1944

Dumbo 2 the avenger, Kwajalein July 1944

Fools Paradise; B-24j 42-73282;Kwajalein July 44

Glenna Bee 2; Kwajalein July 1944

Little Hiawatha; Funafuti, Ellice Island

Merry Boozer B-24j 42-109945;Kwajalein July 1944

Madame Pele, 42-109951, 26th BS 11th BG 7th AF

Smokey Stover

Salty Sal Kwajalein July 1944

TARFU 42-109933 Kwajalein

Waldo.Pepper
05-14-2009, 01:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jarink:
I just had to dredge this up when I saw this picture today...

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c1/jarink/7AFB-17.jpg

All I know is that the picture was supposedly taken on Hawaii. No s/n or any other details, unfortunately.

HINT: look under the co-pilot's window.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The caption for this picture from the original location has this to say about the picture.

"B-17F near Hangars 3 and 5 at Hickam Field, 7th Air Force, Gunnery School, c1943-1944."

The car in the background looks like a 1941 Dodge coupe to me (but it could be anything I suppose.) Still this all seems to add up to a scene from 1943-1944 Hickam Field like the caption states. From here.

http://hawaii.gov/hawaiiaviati...?b_start:int=48&-C= (http://hawaii.gov/hawaiiaviation/aviation-photos/1940-1949/hickam-field-air-force-base/world-war-ii/ha_photo_album_view?b_start:int=48&-C= )



Steve Birdsall posted the picture to an aviation website and had this to say about the plane.

"Assuming that she's a veteran of the 11th Bomb Gro up, the possibilities are pretty limited 41-24426, 41-24446 Jezabel, or 41-24535."... also ..."a pretty typical sea-search antenna array below the kill markings."

I wonder where he determined THAT from?
If this was a sea search radar then why was it used only in the Pacific?
I wonder what the CC on the engine cowl is all about. Anyone have any theory?

Assuming he is right then about the serial numbers then Joe's site has this to add about ...

24426 (5th BG, 42nd BS) returned to USA in 1944.
24446 (5th BG, 23rd BS, "Jezebel") returned to USA

I guess I have to track down Steve Birdsall now to pick his brain about how he knows about the aerials being a 'pretty typical sea search radar'.

Thanks for the picture Jarink. Potentially very helpful.

Steve_Birdsall
06-05-2011, 09:05 PM
I was going through some (very) old letters and finally found what I was looking for.

Jack W. Rivers served in the 380th Bomb Group, and described 42-41243 Battle Weary as "our B-24".

http://users.beagle.com.au/stevepb/241243.jpg

He wrote:

This plane assigned to our crew #15 was originally called Fascinating ***** but after being shot up so many times was changed to Battle Weary. Notice the Yagi antennas directly below the cockpit window. These antennas were for (ASV) aircraft to surface vessel radar which I operated. It was used primarily to locate Japanese ships but could detect large formations of aircraft.

Col_SandersLite
06-13-2011, 07:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
Because it only is seen on PTO aircraft, I see that as a valuable clue which leads to this question.

What was different in the PTO, compared to Europe? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If this was a sea search radar then why was it used only in the Pacific? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Since it hasn't been stated by someone else, I'll point out a very fundamental, and indeed obvious, difference between sea targets in the ETO and PTO.


In the ETO, the targets where u-boats.
In the PTO, the targets where *ships*.


There is a HUGE difference in size in all directions between a u-boat and a typical 5k ton merchantman, nevermind a warship.

Perhaps said piece of equipment was deemed worthless when trying to pinpoint that kind of target and they where just never used in the eto because of it.

If it was in fact a piece of radar range-finding equipment linked to the bombsite, it would probably be even more useless when used to launch a depth charge attack or dropping Mark 24 torpedoes (which also entered service in 43, with the first sinking in the first quarter).

jarink
06-13-2011, 10:14 PM
Some very useful info here:
US ASV Radar sets (http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/radar-10.htm)

Could these antenna mountings on the fuselage sides be modified SCR-521s? Maybe an alternate mounting that didn't interfere with nose guns and/or gave better performance?
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2559/4132148021_f6db76113f.jpg

horseback
06-14-2011, 04:14 PM
USAAF did very little anti shipping work in the ETO proper; much of the Army Air Force's ASW patrolling was done from domestic shores, and that lacked the glamor and drama that gets books written. Chances are that the more extensive and sensitive ASW type air to surface radars were used more often there as well.

In the Pacific, however, the USAAF was very much engaged in long range antishipping patrols, and putting in that much high priced (and rare) electronic gear wouldn't have been practical on that many bombers.

The Yagi installations appear to me as a pretty basic relatively low cost method of picking up larger surface type ships and trawlers from the air. Much more practical and less expensive for widespread use against Japanese shipping in the Pacific, China Sea and Indian Ocean than the better documented 'Fancy Dan' ASW air to surface radars used in the Battle of the Atlantic.

cheers

horseback

Steve_Birdsall
06-16-2011, 12:34 AM
Here's a photo that I've always found intriguing . . . a very early B-17E that has been considerably modified to patrol those "domestic shores" . . .

http://users.beagle.com.au/stevepb/2473.jpg

Hoosier34608
06-20-2012, 07:41 PM
That is the port side of a Yagi antenna used by the ASE Radar on Navy PB4Y1's (B-24's slightly modified by the Navy). There was an identical antenna on the starboard side. I was first Radioman on a Navy PB4Y1 (BuNo 42-32143) in 1943/44 and we were equipped with the ASE radar and the yagi antenna. That old (prehistoric) radar had an "A" scope presentation about 5 inches in diameter at the Radioman's position. The "A" scope was a vertical line representing range in thousands of yards, and targets appeared as "blips" on the range line. A target on the port side would cause a blip on the left side of the line and a target on the right would show as a blip on the right side. A target dead ahead wouldhave identical blipson the range line, at the distance of the target. I was in a photographic squadron and we NEVER used the radar; I knew many fellows in bombing squadrons and I don't believe they used it either. I tried it one time on a night flight out of San Diego, tryng to see Cataline Island and I could not find it, so we never used it again.
Happy to answer your questions if you want more.
Tom