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thefruitbat
05-27-2005, 12:58 PM
i'm not trolling here, i just curious why so many people complain that spits, la7's and ki84's are uber, and yet it seems that no one thinks that about late 109s.

lately i have probally been flying 90% of my time offline, and nearly all of that in the qmb. I've had a wingman ffb wheel for ages, and after reading posts on here, decided to use the pedals for the rudder. This of course led to my gunnery going down the toilet for a while, hence the use of qmb. It probally only took a couple of weeks to get it back and i cant imagine flying any other way now, but i still keep flying the qmb, practising and practising gunnery, but also trying out loads of planes to learn the quirks of them.

I always use the same format, me v 4 ace ai planes of the same year. To start with i was usuing the late war "uber planes" for when i fly on 334th, to learn there strenghs better, although now i tend to fly earlier war plane sets, because i find the fights much closer and intense, also because i am **** at high speed dogfights, and also because i like flying on uk dedicated, which uses historical plane sets, which are all through the war.

Anyway my point is, in a late spit, la 7 and 109k4, and g10(my fav) i feel invincable against the computer ai. I can shoot down 4 ace enemy fighters no matter what they are including jets( in fact 262's i find a walk in the park, surely this shouldnt be so?). I should probally add that i do fly "wonder women view" as so many of you love to call it, but other than that stalls, cem, engine overheat etc... as on the severs i fly

But it is the g10 (cant work out why i prefer the g10 to the k4 but i do) that i truly feel like i am toying with them, completly controlling the fight. i feel like a cat playing with a mouse. Now i know that is just the ai i am flying against, and that they do not use the planes to there potential, espescially there angles of climb. But i find the acceleration, rate of climb and firepower of the g10 awesome. So it has a few problems to work around with the elevator, but a little bit of flying in it, you so learn to negate this problem. the same goes for engine management.

am i missing something because i have been flying it so much offline, and v rarely online, the reason why people dont consider it "uber"

Oh, and by the way, dont u think there will always be uber planes, because there will always have to be some "best" planes?

cheers, fruitbat

thefruitbat
05-27-2005, 12:58 PM
i'm not trolling here, i just curious why so many people complain that spits, la7's and ki84's are uber, and yet it seems that no one thinks that about late 109s.

lately i have probally been flying 90% of my time offline, and nearly all of that in the qmb. I've had a wingman ffb wheel for ages, and after reading posts on here, decided to use the pedals for the rudder. This of course led to my gunnery going down the toilet for a while, hence the use of qmb. It probally only took a couple of weeks to get it back and i cant imagine flying any other way now, but i still keep flying the qmb, practising and practising gunnery, but also trying out loads of planes to learn the quirks of them.

I always use the same format, me v 4 ace ai planes of the same year. To start with i was usuing the late war "uber planes" for when i fly on 334th, to learn there strenghs better, although now i tend to fly earlier war plane sets, because i find the fights much closer and intense, also because i am **** at high speed dogfights, and also because i like flying on uk dedicated, which uses historical plane sets, which are all through the war.

Anyway my point is, in a late spit, la 7 and 109k4, and g10(my fav) i feel invincable against the computer ai. I can shoot down 4 ace enemy fighters no matter what they are including jets( in fact 262's i find a walk in the park, surely this shouldnt be so?). I should probally add that i do fly "wonder women view" as so many of you love to call it, but other than that stalls, cem, engine overheat etc... as on the severs i fly

But it is the g10 (cant work out why i prefer the g10 to the k4 but i do) that i truly feel like i am toying with them, completly controlling the fight. i feel like a cat playing with a mouse. Now i know that is just the ai i am flying against, and that they do not use the planes to there potential, espescially there angles of climb. But i find the acceleration, rate of climb and firepower of the g10 awesome. So it has a few problems to work around with the elevator, but a little bit of flying in it, you so learn to negate this problem. the same goes for engine management.

am i missing something because i have been flying it so much offline, and v rarely online, the reason why people dont consider it "uber"

Oh, and by the way, dont u think there will always be uber planes, because there will always have to be some "best" planes?

cheers, fruitbat

Capt.LoneRanger
05-27-2005, 01:11 PM
I guess one reason is the fact that those planes are matched by allied fighters, the other thing is, that the cannons are bugged.

They're good fighters, no doubt, but far from uber.

Against AI a TB3 is uber. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

JG54_Arnie
05-27-2005, 01:14 PM
Some do consider them uber..


(I do. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)

AerialTarget
05-27-2005, 02:06 PM
They're the best airplanes in the game, other than the Russian ones. Still, they aren't uber, because they have early compression problems.

thefarb2
05-27-2005, 02:36 PM
The e 4 flies great, but it seems to me that the 109 doesn't fly so well as it goes faster. so the later models don't interest me so much. a fast plane is not so uber if it doesn't handle uber as well. just my take on it.

Henkie_
05-27-2005, 02:42 PM
Just fly it without wonderwoman view and suddenly it will not look so uber anymore. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

lbhskier37
05-27-2005, 02:47 PM
Just fly against some ace human P51 pilots and will will feel a whole lot less uber. Good P51 pilots are my worst fear online, unless I have a good altitude advantage or outnumber them, I avoid them like the plague

carguy_
05-27-2005, 03:09 PM
There are uber planes and there are planes that require skill to be succesfull.There are also planes which do not have life online(Me262).


Every time you whine Spit is not uber,think why Me262 is never online.Because it is the king of uber although a n00b can not fly it like he could with a Spitfire.

We have Spit XIV online battling with Bf109G10.It`s pretty equal but no toying there.

Philipscdrw
05-27-2005, 03:23 PM
I've encountered a 262 in a high-switch server once so far, in six months of sporadic online forays. And it was the 5cm cannon version. I got bored with shooting tanks and started taking the wings of P-47s instead...

262 is a very different aircraft to fly, as it doesn't really manouever at all, or accelerate much... I like it though.

robban75
05-27-2005, 03:30 PM
IMO the Bf 109K-4 is probably the best prop fighter in the game. Second is the La-7. And they have one thing in common. Namely a very optimistic climbrate. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

BuzzU
05-27-2005, 03:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carguy_:
There are uber planes and there are planes that require skill to be succesfull.There are also planes which do not have life online(Me262).


Every time you whine Spit is not uber,think why Me262 is never online.Because it is the king of uber although a n00b can not fly it like he could with a Spitfire.

We have Spit XIV online battling with Bf109G10.It`s pretty equal but no toying there. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spit XIV?? Where?

crazyivan1970
05-27-2005, 03:32 PM
IMO K4 is too dull to be a best messer rob... G6/AS is right on http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Got best out of them all http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

robban75
05-27-2005, 03:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
IMO K4 is too dull to be a best messer rob... G6/AS is right on http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Got best out of them all http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

True, the G6/AS has the best mix of speed and agility. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

victor51
05-27-2005, 05:25 PM
Call me crazy, but when I switch from other planes to a 109, it always feels like it has a diesel engine. Its power-band is just so constant, I really like that feeling. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Jumoschwanz
05-27-2005, 05:45 PM
I can go into the QMB and shoot down any four opponents flying just about any plane in the sim with the cockpit on. In fact I have a track where I shoot down 16 Go-229s with one P-40, I can't remember if it is wonder woman or not though, I will take a look.
What you are missing is the AI is not that good or that smart.

If you went online against some good pilots they would kick your a$$ all over the place, and it probably wouldn't take even two of them most of the time.

Once on this forum I told someone that to prepare to do well on full-difficulty online servres, or any online server, fly against four opponents in the QMB full difficulty so you have to keep track of them visually and spot the dots. Big difference when you don't have icons or big colored arrows pointing at them. And even then you can soon get to the point where that is not a real challenge. AI is too predictable.

The AI makes many mistakes that good online pilots do not. S!

Jumoschwanz

VW-IceFire
05-27-2005, 05:49 PM
I consider them just as uber as all of the other aircraft labled uber. Trouble is...there is a sort of cult like fashion where German planes are automatically undermodeled (when they aren't) and Allied planes are automatically overmodeled (when they aren't) and vital things are entirely neglected.

Surely there are elements of aircraft on both sides that are over and undermodeled to some degree or extent...but some aircraft are ignored in some ways.

That said...the 109 is one of the better modeled. Its certainly been in the game longer than most others...so its pretty good.

Fennec_P
05-27-2005, 06:18 PM
In response to the original question, the 109s can't ever really be uber because of their control heaviness.

It just presents too much of a problem at high speeds and high altitudes for the plane to be as effective as other uber planes, like the late Spits and Ki-84, or even the P-51, which don't have that problem.

It's the same reason why the Yaks aren't the ride of choice anymore. Too stiff.

Badsight.
05-27-2005, 06:31 PM
Uber = better than RL performance

in a Combat Flight Sim at least

so it doesnt matter if they have things that make them easy or hard to use , its about wether they are performing better than there RL counterparts did

Fennec_P
05-27-2005, 06:36 PM
If thats the criterion, the P.11 could be 'uber' it it were overmodelled?

I don't think thats the popular definition. Uber=better than the other planes.

Badsight.
05-27-2005, 06:48 PM
populer or not , its not what Uber means

Jagdklinger
05-27-2005, 07:13 PM
Why isn't the 109 uber?
mynameisroland posted a comment on the P38 that applies equally well to the 109:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> quote:
Originally posted by mynameisroland:
The P38 doesnt have the control authority at speeds to B and Z, it doesnt have the agility to T and B it is a half way house. Its inherent qualities contradict each other. It is very fast yet has to slow down to manuver whereas a Fw or a Mustang has the invaluble advantage of staying fast and manuvering. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The 'optomistic' climb rate (as Robban pointed out)is the main reason I like it. You can climb to 6000m, and have a smoke and a short siesta while you are waiting for most opponents to catch up. Or you could B n Z them...

Otherwise, its good features tend to cancel each other out. The engine management is fussier than most allied planes, and if (like me) your landings lack polish the 109 can be rather unforgiving.

I'd rate the Yak9U, La7, and 90D all ahead of the 109G-K series, with Spit IX/P51D/Yak3/P63 roughly equal.

OldMan____
05-27-2005, 07:44 PM
Bf109 are great at everything.. or at lest good. But not the best at anything. They are outturned by Spits. Out accelerated by La7, outrunned by p51 and La7(since the La7 will get to its max speed much faster so it gets an advantage), outdived by p47, outgunned by FW190, also P63 can match it inch by inch.

I really thing that its hellish accelaration makes La7 best plane in game by far.

La7 is suprior to 109 in EVERYTHING when at low level. Specially acceleration, and it is more resilent. Also a Spit 9 can match it (or keep close) in everything but speed, something compensated by the lower E loss.


Both Spit and late 109 can keep going slow nose up much longer than " normal " plane ca do. I vote on this as the uberness factor.

I don´t pay attention on climb rate, (maybe because i learned to fight in a 190a4) I usually make my fights ging towars ground then at a safe altitude I extend and only then regain altitude slowly.

PBNA-Boosher
05-27-2005, 08:45 PM
P.11 is uber, I can take down anything in it if you give me the time.

bolillo_loco
05-27-2005, 09:41 PM
I have often wondered myself why nobody considers the bf 109K uber. all the people that think the 51, la7, spit 9, yak 3p to be able to keep up with the 109k are obviously playing against people who do not know how to use manual prop pitch in the 109k. I can find myself at 500 meters with an la7 closing fast from 4km away. I put the nose of the 109k up in the air and cem the engine till it screams like a two cycle chain saw. by the time the la7 gets to with in 1km of me I begin to pull away from it. no other a/c in this game can come close to the 109k's climb while using manual prop pitch. the last time I checked the rate of climb while using manual prop pitch in the 109k it was 6,400 fpm.

WUAF_Toad
05-27-2005, 10:04 PM
Because they don't want the 109 to be labeled as a noob plane to keep their elite status.

ElAurens
05-27-2005, 10:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WUAF_Toad:
Because they don't want the 109 to be labeled as a noob plane to keep their elite status. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nailed it right there....

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Skalgrim
05-28-2005, 01:19 AM
Think mw50 109 are not so strong overmdell by climb, as many think when you they compare with g2.

p47 and p51 much more overmodel by climb.

k4 24,5m/sec initialclimb was sure make with 1,6ata 1600ps combat and climbpower and not with 1,98ata 2000ps,

germans had every time test the climb with
combat and climbpower.



look finnish g2,

power 1,3ata 1300ps
weigh 3100kg

powerload 0,4193

k4

power 1,6 ata 1600ps

weigh 3350kg

powerload 0,4776

k4 has with 1,6ata 13,8% better powerload as the finnish g2,

that means calculate are 24m/sec initialclimb for the k4 possible with 1,6ata, with same lift are the powerload proportional to the climb.

and that match the famouse 24,5m/sec initialclimb from k4, interesting or not.

With 2000ps should K4 much better as 24,5m/sec climb, when compare powerload from g2 and k4.

with wm50 1,98ata 2000ps should k4 get initialclimb 29m/sec,

the spain g10 with weaker powerload had
already get 29m/sec initialclimb.

109 with same powerlad climb better as spits,

spit14 has initialclimb from near 24m/sec, but keep in the mind k4 has better powerload,

because much less weigh, so should k4 get better initialclimb as the spit14,

again a indicates that the famouse k4 initialclimb from 24,5m/sec was make with combat and climbpwer power like all other climb from the germans.


when you look of overmodel climb, should you perhaps more look of the p51 and p47 in game,

they was not famouse for good climb but climb very good, think 190 pilots knows that



..

MS_Siwarrior
05-28-2005, 02:56 AM
I didn't even know peeps considered late war ME109s uber?!

Papa_K
05-28-2005, 03:16 AM
To thefruitbat:

Sounds like you're ready for online play. QMB is good for target practice, and to get used to different aircraft-types (and it can be used to set up good matchups, etc.). Online play is what hooked a good number of people to this game series.

You probably like the G10 because the controls don't seem to get quite as unresponsive. (It seem less "heavy" in a high speed dive.) A patch-or-two ago, the K4 (re)gained a "cement elevator" at high speed.

The "uberness" of the late model 109's revolves around the Mk108 cannon (and its climbing ability, and speed). One burst kills. But, compared to the E's, F's and the G2, late-109's lose maneuverability, and gain speed. (Against human defensive maneuvers, you often have to lead-turn his reaction to get a good shot. If he has a standard defensive maneuver that worked on your first pass, plan on it for the next pass.)

There are some "uber" planes...some deserve it from real life.

Papa_K

F19_Ob
05-28-2005, 03:31 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Uber can mean anything from "too good performance to be cool" to "overmodeled = wrong"
So wich is it??
I think the balance is good , meaning ok.


There is a big difference between early and late war, and the 109's got stiffer competition in experienced pilots and faster planes wich could catch the 109's in level flight or dive after them, and climb.
This ment that they no longer had as many of the advantages that existed early.

So in my opinion a late 109's best quality is climbrate, accelleration and speed and the 30mm cannon. To be able to disable an enemy with one hit (30mm) is very different than with more hits with the 20mm cannon.
At low level a spit9 or yak3 should be about equal with the 109 and the La7 better in almost everything.
So in latewar it's more a pilot issue and who has the initial better angle on the other when the fight beginns.
So lot more of luck and bad-luck situations.
The highcommand of the Luftwaffe didn't like luck-related options and ordered that fights with later planes yak3 and La7 should be avoided if possible, especially low.

personally I think most uber-ideas depends on how people "feel", not if they have calculated all possible relations and situations correctly.

a few thoughts

carguy_
05-28-2005, 03:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WUAF_Toad:
Because they don't want the 109 to be labeled as a noob plane to keep their elite status. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whatever you say about Me109K4 it doesn`t consider me and many v war LW pilots who fly what they get.Didn`t fly it more than 20 times online and that is why I never practice in qmb with it.

Majority of latewar encounters is G6Late vs Yak9D/9U,Spitfire IXc/e and La5FN.Rest is Yak3/9U against Me109G10/G14.Talking bout historical encounters here.The K4 is almost nowhere to be seen.

LW has one of the best planes in the game.However rarely we get to fly them.What we get is G6Late and FW190A8 80% of the time.Against Spits,Yak9U and rarely P39 makes LW still the underdog.Sometimes I see Ta152 but I do not fly them.

What?No He162?No Me262?No Me163?No fun for allies I guess. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

OldMan____
05-28-2005, 06:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bolillo_loco:
I have often wondered myself why nobody considers the bf 109K uber. all the people that think the 51, la7, spit 9, yak 3p to be able to keep up with the 109k are obviously playing against people who do not know how to use manual prop pitch in the 109k. I can find myself at 500 meters with an la7 closing fast from 4km away. I put the nose of the 109k up in the air and cem the engine till it screams like a two cycle chain saw. by the time the la7 gets to with in 1km of me I begin to pull away from it. no other a/c in this game can come close to the 109k's climb while using manual prop pitch. the last time I checked the rate of climb while using manual prop pitch in the 109k it was 6,400 fpm. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

4k km is not distance for starting a pursue. You are not even sure if he is enemy or if he saw you (in Full R servers). Reasonable pursuits start at &lt; 1000m and at this distance the 109 cannot escape a La7.. no matter if using prop pitch. La7 acceleration is 50% bigger than K4 up to 580 kph.


I also never was outpaced by any 109 during pursuits while I was flying a Late FW190 so ptop pitch does not make all that of a difference.

I personally really can't use it, since I can't pay attention on combat while managinf RPM changes in a tight schedule. But I don't miss it. I almost NEVER use more than plain 100% power in my FW190 or bf109.. and even WEP I use only when already engaged and needing to recover little bit of E.

In short.. I really cant like the late 109. Don't like the cannon, the controls, the fragility. I would take a FW190A4-A8 or Spit MK IX any time over it. The 109F4 THIS one is really king at its time. That is the best 109.

p1ngu666
05-28-2005, 07:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Skalgrim:
Think mw50 109 are not so strong overmdell by climb, as many think when you they compare with g2.

p47 and p51 much more overmodel by climb.

k4 24,5m/sec initialclimb was sure make with 1,6ata 1600ps combat and climbpower and not with 1,98ata 2000ps,

germans had every time test the climb with
combat and climbpower.



look finnish g2,

power 1,3ata 1300ps
weigh 3100kg

powerload 0,4193

k4

power 1,6 ata 1600ps

weigh 3350kg

powerload 0,4776

k4 has with 1,6ata 13,8% better powerload as the finnish g2,

that means calculate are 24m/sec initialclimb for the k4 possible with 1,6ata, with same lift are the powerload proportional to the climb.

and that match the famouse 24,5m/sec initialclimb from k4, interesting or not.

With 2000ps should K4 much better as 24,5m/sec climb, when compare powerload from g2 and k4.

with wm50 1,98ata 2000ps should k4 get initialclimb 29m/sec,

the spain g10 with weaker powerload had
already get 29m/sec initialclimb.

109 with same powerlad climb better as spits,

spit14 has initialclimb from near 24m/sec, but keep in the mind k4 has better powerload,

because much less weigh, so should k4 get better initialclimb as the spit14,

again a indicates that the famouse k4 initialclimb from 24,5m/sec was make with combat and climbpwer power like all other climb from the germans.


when you look of overmodel climb, should you perhaps more look of the p51 and p47 in game,

they was not famouse for good climb but climb very good, think 190 pilots knows that



.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

sure, the ential climbrate is about correct, but it keeps that climbrate upto 5000metres or something, this is ofcouse boostable by overreving the engine, not sure how much u gain from that....
its stall speed is far too low, similer to f4 but its softer. its one of the easiest planes to take off and land
the mk108 is also overmodeled, (oleg gave into whines)
rollrate at speed is probably too high, its damage model is very forgiving.

but NONE of these things matter to how it performs ingame http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

and its german, so surely its better than anything else, ever http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

OldMan____
05-28-2005, 08:38 AM
Well MK018 is LITTLE bit better tragectory than it should , that is what oleg said. Don't know if this really matters, a little bit more dispersion would not denegrate it too much since people use it from &lt;100 m. Also I don't see how can you like its damage modeling.. I hate to loose engine and forward view to same bullet.


But in the rest you are right. But I think the only thing on those that matters is the climb and rollrate.

CUJO_1970
05-28-2005, 09:09 AM
News to me that the 109 is not considered uber.

It's got to be the most whined and cried about fighter by the allies in the history of flight simulation.

AerialTarget
05-28-2005, 10:32 AM
Well, let me put it this way; if I want to fly good looking planes, I stay American. If someone has insulted my flying and I want to improve his etiquette, I go Me-109.

bolillo_loco
05-28-2005, 02:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OldMan____:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bolillo_loco:
I have often wondered myself why nobody considers the bf 109K uber. all the people that think the 51, la7, spit 9, yak 3p to be able to keep up with the 109k are obviously playing against people who do not know how to use manual prop pitch in the 109k. I can find myself at 500 meters with an la7 closing fast from 4km away. I put the nose of the 109k up in the air and cem the engine till it screams like a two cycle chain saw. by the time the la7 gets to with in 1km of me I begin to pull away from it. no other a/c in this game can come close to the 109k's climb while using manual prop pitch. the last time I checked the rate of climb while using manual prop pitch in the 109k it was 6,400 fpm. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

4k km is not distance for starting a pursue. You are not even sure if he is enemy or if he saw you (in Full R servers). Reasonable pursuits start at &lt; 1000m and at this distance the 109 cannot escape a La7.. no matter if using prop pitch. La7 acceleration is 50% bigger than K4 up to 580 kph.


I also never was outpaced by any 109 during pursuits while I was flying a Late FW190 so ptop pitch does not make all that of a difference.

I personally really can't use it, since I can't pay attention on combat while managinf RPM changes in a tight schedule. But I don't miss it. I almost NEVER use more than plain 100% power in my FW190 or bf109.. and even WEP I use only when already engaged and needing to recover little bit of E.

In short.. I really cant like the late 109. Don't like the cannon, the controls, the fragility. I would take a FW190A4-A8 or Spit MK IX any time over it. The 109F4 THIS one is really king at its time. That is the best 109. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

hey guy if your going to quote me and then pick it apart atleast know what I am talking about. you have just admitted that you do not use manual prop pitch so how do you even feel qualified to give an answer on it? show me another plane that will climb 50% better on manual prop pitch than it will when you dont use it. manual prop pitch significantly increases the 109ks climb and acceleration...........SIGNIFICANTLY

I play in air quake servers quite a bit and trust me when I tell you that the la7 is locked on to me at 4km and is closing to kill me. I know he is because he usually wants revenge after I just out climbed him 2-3 times and let him hang just below me in his la7 till he has bled all his e........then I just drop on him and blow him up.

in full real servers it works also. you bounce a guy and if you missed and he follows you up you simply cem the 109k, it takes a lot of guess work, but its not hard to figure out when he is out of e and you can drop on him.

just looking at what some people have wrote it has to boil down to this,

A: people do not want the uber manual prop pitch climb and acceleration of the 109K uncovered
B: people have tried the manual prop pitch in the 109K and messed up the engine because they are not bright enough to learn how to do it and figure that neither is anybody else
C: people are too lazy to mess with prop pitch in the 109K

if bolillo_loco figured out how to make the 109K climb at 6,400 fpm then anybody can, btw I do not over heat the engine very often. what I know about manual prop pitch and the 109K is childs play when compairing it to other people I know. ive seen afj rsm use it up high, I think he uses it on the mouse wheel. I use the keyboard so maybe thats why. he just has a real finess about it that I lack.

Fennec_P
05-28-2005, 03:06 PM
Perhaps you have a track demonstrating how to get excessive climb/speed/turn with prop pitch?

I have tried to replicate this, without much success (either blow the engine, or get same performance as auto). I'll give it another try on a slider I guess.

Mind you, I have had fun with prop pitch with 'engine overheat' turned off. It's like a rocket plane like that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Fennec_P
05-28-2005, 04:10 PM
Ok, so I tried it.

109K4 1000-5000m climb time test. Crimea, noon, 110% power w/MW50. Climb speed 250-260IAS. Rad closed (the tracks are bugged, and show the radiators being open.)

------

Time from 1000-5000m

Auto Pitch: 2:19
Manual Pitch: 2:03

Time to 'overheat' message

Auto Pitch: 1:26 (3500m)
Manual Pitch: 1:19 (3850m)

A note: The 'Manual' K4 engine broke down just before passing 5000m. Probably because I was using keyboard and accidentally set pitch too low.

Tracks: http://members.shaw.ca/fennec/prop.zip

With manual pitch, the climb time was shorter by 16 seconds over a segment of 4000m. This is an improvement of ~10%.

The engine overheated slightly sooner, but not much as to pose a disadvantage. The engine broke down, which was probably due to user error.

Conclusion: I will map pitch to a slider and abuse it shamelessly.

Next test: Can prop pitch make your 109K go faster?

Fennec_P
05-28-2005, 04:29 PM
Speed test. I'll not put the tracks, since you can do it yourself :P

109K4 100m alt speed test. Crimea, noon, 110% power w/MW50. Rad closed. Yadda yadda... Level acceleration, not from a dive. I know you can get higher speeds after a dive.

------

Auto pitch: 587km/h
Manual pitch: 598km/h

The speed for auto pitch is precisely what it states in IL2 Compare. Like, exactly.

Engaging manual pitch and setting 80% pitch results in a top stable speed of 598km/h. Changing to 75% pitch causes the engine to break down.

Conclusion: Manual prop pitch makes you go ~2% faster than auto. In practice, it's not valuable in any way, as you will certainly destroy your engine if you try this under combat conditions (it was hard enough to do it straight and level without breaking it).

Caveat: There's nothing saying this is 'uber' since RL speed tests would have been done, not surprisingly, within the RPM limits. Of course, going higher RPM will make you go faster.

Fun fact: The FW-190 also goes faster with manual pitch, set at 100%. But watch the RPM in dives, or the engine will bust.

Now, being the nut that I am, I'll test acceleration.

WTE_Warg
05-28-2005, 04:33 PM
Can't really say that any aircraft is "uber". Maybe appears to be when the combatants are matchups from different historical timeframes. i.e. a 1941 v 1945 aircraft scenario. Anyway, its not the planes, but the way you fly them. Tactics, flying skill and gunnery. Just match your strengths against your opponents weaknesses and your halfway there. Read some more and listen to what the other flyers on the forum have to say. Theres a lot of good stuff out there.

Fennec_P
05-28-2005, 04:49 PM
Predictably, using manual pitch for 109K4 improves acceleration by 10%, just like climb.

300-500km/h on the deck. 110%+MW50, rad closed.

Auto: 30 seconds
Manual: 27 seconds (pitch starting at 85%, then shifting down to 75%)

p1ngu666
05-28-2005, 05:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fennec_P:
Predictably, using manual pitch for 109K4 improves acceleration by 10%, just like climb.

300-500km/h on the deck. 110%+MW50, rad closed.

Auto: 30 seconds
Manual: 27 seconds (pitch starting at 85%, then shifting down to 75%) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

nice tests fennec, to get the most out of it u could try using it on a slider, ull gain alot more because u can hold it on edge. if u turn off engine overheat u can use barmy revs but u wont go faster (engine makes a funny noise too XD)
also heard the uber hax one, set 99% throttle, and then use manual pitch, with rads closed http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

OldMan____
05-28-2005, 05:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fennec_P:
Predictably, using manual pitch for 109K4 improves acceleration by 10%, just like climb.

300-500km/h on the deck. 110%+MW50, rad closed.

Auto: 30 seconds
Manual: 27 seconds (pitch starting at 85%, then shifting down to 75%) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

just proves my point (that btw someone rudesly attacked) that there is no such 50% improvment. 10% improvment is something valuable but is not the end of world and quite near what I would expect in RL (no auto system before computers would be able to give better results than the best possible operation on manual). The FW190 also increases about 6% acceleration and about 18-20 kph on max speed. So that is NORMAL.

If people use it in wrong way that isnot fault of plane.. but fault of the player. Same reason that people fly in ways that are too dangerous to RL tatics.

Tazzers1968
05-29-2005, 09:23 AM
Theres no such thing as an uber plane in this sim, or certainly not to the extent of many a claim that has pushed the boudaries of reality. For instance I don't consider the Ki84 to be 'uber' because it spins all too easily but I have been butt kicked by many. It takes a bit of skill to fly one effectively in simulated combat. I assume the pilots who fly them well were good and I wasn't. I don't consider the 109K4 to be uber because it flys like a brick compared to my personal favourite 109, the G2. Remember though that it is all relative.

People have perceptions and preconceptions, I'd say a third of those who claim uberness in a type are kidding, they are having a laugh because they know what the reaction is going to be. Another third really mean it. They are the ones who don't like the fact that they get beat a lot whilst flying thier favourite type and assume the shooters are flying UFOs as a result. The final third are just people who don't know how to fly and will not admit it.

Phil http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

OldMan____
05-29-2005, 10:07 AM
Yes but there are some unexplained bahaviors that are trully to be annalysed.

Like. Why La7 accelerates liek at bullet from zero to almost max speed than just stop accelerating like if a wall was hit? Shouldn t it behave like any other plane and loose acceleration gradually from mid to high speed?

Why Spit 9c bahaves quite differently from Spit 9E about E retention? Quite strange ...


Why Bf 109K4 stall at same speed that 109F4? (although I think that last one is pretty irrelevant for anyone but flat turn and burners that would use a g2 anyway)