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View Full Version : I153P (and J8A ) vs.3 BFG..



Fighterduck
09-12-2005, 10:24 AM
I recently make a little match with the mission builder ( just for fun ) : i used a I153P against 3 BfG with proof AI...and i won http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif....don't how a 153 can win against Bf...but i did it...the think that gave me a incredible advantage was the incredible maniability...and..ehm don't know how to explain it, but i can climb vertically to 20-10 Km/h and take the Bf behind when tehy try to follow me in the climb movement..I pratically freeze in the air when the Bf try to do some attak movements and have the right fire position...so i took down 3 Bf

.....Was the I153 really capable to do such movements ? ( not to take down 3 Bf http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) .... I mean it is really manouvrable also at 20km/h ! How it was in combat? ( and the J8 )

Fighterduck
09-12-2005, 10:24 AM
I recently make a little match with the mission builder ( just for fun ) : i used a I153P against 3 BfG with proof AI...and i won http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif....don't how a 153 can win against Bf...but i did it...the think that gave me a incredible advantage was the incredible maniability...and..ehm don't know how to explain it, but i can climb vertically to 20-10 Km/h and take the Bf behind when tehy try to follow me in the climb movement..I pratically freeze in the air when the Bf try to do some attak movements and have the right fire position...so i took down 3 Bf

.....Was the I153 really capable to do such movements ? ( not to take down 3 Bf http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) .... I mean it is really manouvrable also at 20km/h ! How it was in combat? ( and the J8 )

Tully__
09-12-2005, 10:30 AM
The biplanes are all able to turn very tightly and manouver at very low speeds, but at the expense of lower top speeds and (usually) poorer energy retention.

ianboys
09-12-2005, 10:35 AM
In 1944 a Finnish I-153 pilot shot down a Soviet P-39. It can be done if they aren't careful.

But can you do it with externals off?

Fighterduck
09-12-2005, 10:52 AM
I had external off...I dont' like non-full-real setting flys...I used the mouse to follow Bf movements...hard..but i have to do this in MP too.
I think i will buy Track IR....when i will have the money http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The thing that surprised me was the incredible low speed movements that those planes was capable to do.
Are the double wings that give those plane this ability? ( need to learn new things http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

tigertalon
09-12-2005, 11:09 AM
Maybe a bit OT, but anyway:

Soviets were even developing a fighter (Nikitin-Shevchenko IS-1/2/4), which would use two pairs of wings for combat/landing etc, but for high speeds the lower would retract into the upper. This feature would give it awesome maneouvrability AND high performance (speed and climb). AFAIK only IS-1 was built but not sure whether it was used operationaly. Couple pics of IS-4 here:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/is-4-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/is-4.jpg
http://www.ctrl-c.liu.se/misc/ram/is-4-mcginnes-1-prev.jpg

neural_dream
09-12-2005, 11:20 AM
very interesting. i'll google about this Nikitin-Shevchenko IS.

Fighterduck
09-12-2005, 11:25 AM
Agree...nice plane and great idea to use a biplane...

But wha biplane concept was throw away? I know that one only wing had really good advantages, but was impossible to develope much mor the biplane concept? ( how this Nikitin-Shevchenko )

Edbert
09-12-2005, 11:43 AM
Two of the biggest drawbacks were visibility and speed. My friend's Pitts suffers from the first but not the second http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Fighterduck
09-12-2005, 11:51 AM
but also some modern fighters had visibility problems...the two wings gave the plane an incredible maniability..maeby it was only a problem of time.

VW-IceFire
09-12-2005, 03:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fighterduck:
Agree...nice plane and great idea to use a biplane...

But wha biplane concept was throw away? I know that one only wing had really good advantages, but was impossible to develope much mor the biplane concept? ( how this Nikitin-Shevchenko ) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The biggest reason, and something that they understood even in WWI was that the bi-plane, although incredibly manueverable had problems with visibility and problems with drag.

The best of the bi-plane fighters were generally also the fastest. Manueverability was still a key concern but the ability to fly faster and escape meant that the faster plane could dictate the fight.

So with speed as key...the biplanes really weren't worth keeping around. The VVS (Russian Air Force) was actually under the impression that a monoplane and biplane duo would function together in the modern airforce. But the I-153 was really given the job of shturmovik (the same role as the IL-2) when it was realized to be no match for the 109. Given the choice between a faster mono-plane and a more agile bi-plane I'd choose the faster one.

The AI looses to more manueverable planes all the time...its just not as good with energy tactics. Ironically, the AI behaves like most novice online pilots do.

Fighterduck
09-13-2005, 12:19 PM
Thanks for the reply. I'm tring to learn something
about biplane history.

Fighterduck
09-13-2005, 12:24 PM
speaking of online play and tactics...i'm triyng to learn use fighters ( I always used bombers like the b-25,He 111 or planes like the beaufighter and i'm specialized in ground attack ) but i really don't know any fighting tactics...for example..if I have an ennemy plane coming in front of me ...what should I do?

Fighterduck
09-14-2005, 04:56 AM
I mean, with biplanes i cna use theyr incredibly manouvrability at low speed to make a hight yo-yo ant take dem from behind or using a very low the scissor movement...but i can do those movements really well with more modern fighters such Bf or P-51..at low speed if I make tight curves i will loose controls very soon..they are really unstable ( i always used bombers or heavy planes that can support really tight and violent movements without loosing control or hight shaking...i knwo that's not the same thing http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

x6BL_Brando
09-15-2005, 03:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">for example..if I have an ennemy plane coming in front of me ...what should I do? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think the answer is right there in your sig (slightly re-worked)..... as in, "it's a fighter....duck!" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

tigertalon
09-15-2005, 05:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fighterduck:
if I have an ennemy plane coming in front of me ...what should I do? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Answer to this question, of course, cannot be universal, as the other pilot also has many options.

Firstly, prior the combat, you have to learn about your and opponent's planes. You have to know where your plane is better, where his is. Where (at what altitudes) you are faster, faster climbing, accelerating... and where he is. Know the weaponry and study the sight out of cockpit of opposing plane (sometimes a good pilot pretends he didn't see you, altough he did! - if you know whether you are in his vision-field or not, can be a great aid in combat.)

When you study all this, it will be easyer to decide what to do. For example - if you are going with a Fw190A against Lagg3, go for headon, and after you pass him, start a CLIMB and not a turn. Maybe he will turn and come to your 6, but he will not be able to stay there, because he bled some E while turning...

Go online, experiment, don't be afraid to die. Soon you will find out that it is a very good idea to start the duel with somebody or enter a mass furball with alt/energy advantage over opponents, especially if you are flying german planes.

Fighterduck
09-15-2005, 06:38 AM
thanks tiger.
I've learned lot of info about the most used planes in online match...but still suck in combat http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I always use Bf or Fw ..i know the Gustav was less manouvrable than the Friedrich and that Bf can climb incredibly fast...but during a fight it seem that i can't use this advantage. And because i'm not in a group ( dont have time now http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif ) i'm always 1 vs 1 or 1 vs 2 or more. So I have to find something to do to find a good fire porisiton or to go away faster as I can.
But Bf doesn't support tight or too brutal mouvements, thing that most of Russian planes can do ( i made some experiments offline ). But I really love the incredible engine power of Bf and the impressive firepower of both Bf and Fw...but how I said...I can't use the advantages that those planes have.
I tried fighter because I always used bombers or planes for massive ground attack where I became really effective...but fighters...are totally another history http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

tigertalon
09-15-2005, 02:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fighterduck:
i know the Gustav was less manouvrable than the Friedrich and that Bf can climb incredibly fast...but during a fight it seem that i can't use this advantage. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bf109G2 is one of the best dogfighters of era. It can outclimb most of its opponents with ease. Whenever I take a G2 for a ride online, I always take gunpods with me. Even with them this plane can compete with the best.

It would be good to start practicing offline in QMB. Set invulnerable on, and set some slower opponents, I suggest 4 veteran hurricanes. Meet them at the same altitude, but afterwards, don't turn after them, but start a shallow climb. Not too much or you will stall. Hurris will all get to your 6, but they will be to far away to damage you. And you just keep on climbing and watching them carefully. They will be unable to follow you all the way, so if you gently start climbing even steeper, at some point they will stall, and you will not yet. That's the critical point - swoop down as fast as you can and try to fire at them while they are still slow from stall.

After you will do with 4 hurris, start with spitfiresVb. After that, La5 or spitIX.

Kuna15
09-15-2005, 02:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tigertalon:
Maybe a bit OT, but anyway:

Soviets were even developing a fighter (Nikitin-Shevchenko IS-1/2/4), which would use two pairs of wings for combat/landing etc, but for high speeds the lower would retract into the upper. This feature would give it awesome maneouvrability AND high performance (speed and climb). AFAIK only IS-1 was built but not sure whether it was used operationaly. Couple pics of IS-4 here:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/is-4-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/is-4.jpg
http://www.ctrl-c.liu.se/misc/ram/is-4-mcginnes-1-prev.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That baby looks like made in Crimson Skies.
I don't even want to speculate about performance, but I think it would be awesome aircraft in few ways.

VW-IceFire
09-15-2005, 03:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fighterduck:
I mean, with biplanes i cna use theyr incredibly manouvrability at low speed to make a hight yo-yo ant take dem from behind or using a very low the scissor movement...but i can do those movements really well with more modern fighters such Bf or P-51..at low speed if I make tight curves i will loose controls very soon..they are really unstable ( i always used bombers or heavy planes that can support really tight and violent movements without loosing control or hight shaking...i knwo that's not the same thing http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Basically...you have to learn some of your own tricks and techniques.

Part of that is learning to use your joystick effectively for the aircraft your flying. Just like bombers, fighters have their own tricks and quirks.

The B-25 is not anything like the He-111 or the A-20G.

Fighters are the same except more extreme. While a bomber is fairly unresponsive...a fighter is very responsive. Too responsive really http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If you go head to head and pass each other then really its a race to get on each others tail. In this basic case, whoever has the best turn wins. However, most air combat is not head to head pass at co-alt/co-energy. Most of the time they have an advantage in energy/altitude (same thing) or you do.

One tries to use that advantage against the other to gain position to shoot while the other tries to whittle that advantage away by gaining energy or by forcing his opponent to even his up or have less.

Fighterduck
09-16-2005, 03:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fighterduck:
Me, I always try to climb faster as I can after take off. I'm alwyas at 3500 4000m of altitude.
Most of my Combats are head to head...I't very hard to finbd other planes undr your position: i mean that at 4000m other planes are impossible to intercept if the fly at 1000m. So I intercept ennemy at the same time almost all te time...and it will be the same history...it start to go down and it past me under my nose and the it will climb loosing speed and going to my 6. I dont know if I have to turn climbing at the same time loosing speed so I will reach it in front but with a better firing position or to go away
and start climbing how you all said me. But after climb I'll have to engage it and that's the problem. They always use scissor movements or the climb vertically until they pass me above and I can't follow them because i'm too slow too climb to. So when they star cliymbing this way...I have to follow them or try to do some S or other movements to lose speed avoid them to make this movement?

...i've really muche to learn about fighter anymore http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>