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TinyTim
05-24-2010, 03:06 PM
Well, things are really simple: there is no dash between the manufacturer abbreviation and a model number! For example: It's Fw 190, not Fw-190. The dash only exists between a letter and a number of subversion. For example: G-6 or A-8 (not G6 or A 8). There's a space between a number of the type and a designation of subversion: ... 190 A-8, not 190A-8 or 190A8.

All together:

It's Fw 190 A, not Fw-190A or Fw 190-A or even Fw-190-A.
It's Fw 190 A-3, not anything else.
It's Fw 190 A-3/U3 (note the lack of dash between an U and 3).
It's the same convention with any other German airplane with similar naming, i.e. Bf 109 G-6/U4, Do 217 K-3, Fi 156, Bf 110 G-2 etc.

Some other full designations:

Blohm & Voss BV 138 (note B and V are both in capitals, with spaces before and after &)

Focke-Wulf Fw 200 C-3/U4 (note a dash between Focke and Wulf with no spaces about it).

Horten Ho 229 (not a Go 229, that was unofficial designation because Gotha was the manufacturer). It was also designated Horten Ho IX.

Original IL-2 simulation already had these designations wrong, now with mods coming out they've turned into an utter mess. I know it may sound a kind of puristic, but maybe someoen will find it interesting to know. So I just thought I'd share this. BTW, all this is how Germans were designating their planes.

TinyTim
05-24-2010, 03:06 PM
Well, things are really simple: there is no dash between the manufacturer abbreviation and a model number! For example: It's Fw 190, not Fw-190. The dash only exists between a letter and a number of subversion. For example: G-6 or A-8 (not G6 or A 8). There's a space between a number of the type and a designation of subversion: ... 190 A-8, not 190A-8 or 190A8.

All together:

It's Fw 190 A, not Fw-190A or Fw 190-A or even Fw-190-A.
It's Fw 190 A-3, not anything else.
It's Fw 190 A-3/U3 (note the lack of dash between an U and 3).
It's the same convention with any other German airplane with similar naming, i.e. Bf 109 G-6/U4, Do 217 K-3, Fi 156, Bf 110 G-2 etc.

Some other full designations:

Blohm & Voss BV 138 (note B and V are both in capitals, with spaces before and after &)

Focke-Wulf Fw 200 C-3/U4 (note a dash between Focke and Wulf with no spaces about it).

Horten Ho 229 (not a Go 229, that was unofficial designation because Gotha was the manufacturer). It was also designated Horten Ho IX.

Original IL-2 simulation already had these designations wrong, now with mods coming out they've turned into an utter mess. I know it may sound a kind of puristic, but maybe someoen will find it interesting to know. So I just thought I'd share this. BTW, all this is how Germans were designating their planes.

Mr_Zooly
05-24-2010, 03:19 PM
The same could be said for the Russian aircraft and the designation system they used.

Treetop64
05-24-2010, 03:34 PM
Oh, and Fokker is Dutch, not German.

I got into a huge argument with a buddy over this. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

PanzerAce
05-24-2010, 04:43 PM
So....why is Blohm & Voss BV (both in capitals), but Focke-Wulf is Fw?

Dance
05-24-2010, 05:10 PM
In essence you are right TT, although in many nations documents (other than German) these dashes appear, so many people just accept them. It's fine to be puristic, I often challenge myself of the best way to designate German aircraft, but I tend to cater for the masses.

Romanator21
05-24-2010, 05:25 PM
I could have sworn it was FW 190 rather than Fw 190.

TinyTim
05-24-2010, 05:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Romanator21:
I could have sworn it was FW 190 rather than Fw 190. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.shrani.si/f/2m/fh/3NSu4uLW/fw2.jpg

TinyTim
05-24-2010, 05:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PanzerAce:
So....why is Blohm & Voss BV (both in capitals), but Focke-Wulf is Fw? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a good question. Answer maybe lies in the fact that when RLM introduced this system in 1933, first letter was to be capital and the second always in lower case. At that time Blohm & Voss was still using older designation Ha (for the Hamburger Flugzeugbau which was a part of B & V group), but was only later given BV by the RLM. However, for some reason they were given V in capital case also.

WTE_Galway
05-24-2010, 07:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TinyTim:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PanzerAce:
So....why is Blohm & Voss BV (both in capitals), but Focke-Wulf is Fw? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a good question. Answer maybe lies in the fact that when RLM introduced this system in 1933, first letter was to be capital and the second always in lower case. At that time Blohm & Voss was still using older designation Ha (for the Hamburger Flugzeugbau which was a part of B & V group), but was only later given BV by the RLM. However, for some reason they were given V in capital case also. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The company was officially Focke-Wulf Flugzeugbau GmbH and Focke-Wulf is hyphenated to form a single word - one word, one capital letter.

On the other hand Abteilung Flugzeugbau der Schiffswerft Blohm & Voss clearly has the names as two separate words - two words two capital letters.

WTE_Galway
05-24-2010, 07:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Romanator21:
I could have sworn it was FW 190 rather than Fw 190. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

nope ....

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/190a5-datasheet.jpg


http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/190a5-level-20-10-43.jpg

TinyTim
05-24-2010, 07:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TinyTim:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PanzerAce:
So....why is Blohm & Voss BV (both in capitals), but Focke-Wulf is Fw? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a good question. Answer maybe lies in the fact that when RLM introduced this system in 1933, first letter was to be capital and the second always in lower case. At that time Blohm & Voss was still using older designation Ha (for the Hamburger Flugzeugbau which was a part of B & V group), but was only later given BV by the RLM. However, for some reason they were given V in capital case also. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The company was officially Focke-Wulf Flugzeugbau GmbH and Focke-Wulf is hyphenated to form a single word - one word, one capital letter.

On the other hand Abteilung Flugzeugbau der Schiffswerft Blohm & Voss clearly has the names as two separate words - two words two capital letters. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bayerische Flugzeugwerke = Bf

WTE_Galway
05-24-2010, 07:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TinyTim:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TinyTim:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PanzerAce:
So....why is Blohm & Voss BV (both in capitals), but Focke-Wulf is Fw? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a good question. Answer maybe lies in the fact that when RLM introduced this system in 1933, first letter was to be capital and the second always in lower case. At that time Blohm & Voss was still using older designation Ha (for the Hamburger Flugzeugbau which was a part of B & V group), but was only later given BV by the RLM. However, for some reason they were given V in capital case also. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The company was officially Focke-Wulf Flugzeugbau GmbH and Focke-Wulf is hyphenated to form a single word - one word, one capital letter.

On the other hand Abteilung Flugzeugbau der Schiffswerft Blohm & Voss clearly has the names as two separate words - two words two capital letters. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



Bayerische Flugzeugwerke = Bf </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


true http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Kettenhunde
05-24-2010, 09:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I could have sworn it was FW 190 rather than Fw 190. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It appears as either one.

TinyTim
05-25-2010, 03:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kettenhunde:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I could have sworn it was FW 190 rather than Fw 190. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It appears as either one. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It appears as many things.

RLM assigned them "Fw".

That's the point of this thread.

JtD
05-25-2010, 04:28 AM
I'd say knowing and applying the correct syntax are two different things - I "know" the correct for a long time, but I probably use them wrongly half the time. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

Bremspropeller
05-25-2010, 04:58 AM
"Fw" is the original Focke-Wuf; "FW" is the Flug-Werk replica http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

AndyJWest
05-25-2010, 06:45 AM
Perhaps they thought that if they used a lower-case 'w' it would do 180 degree turns quicker... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

deepo_HP
05-25-2010, 07:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Treetop64:
Oh, and Fokker is Dutch, not German. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>that depends on the time and what you want to relate 'Fokker' to.

i think that Anton Fokker was dutch all the time, but he started with 2 german companies in Berlin and Schwerin - german as by trade-laws.
only after the first war he had to move to the Netherlands because germany wasn't allowed to build airplanes, and started the first dutch 'Fokker'. after being divorced from the daughter of a german general, Fokker founded several companies in the USA, and became its largest aircraft manufacturer, having built 40% of all planes in use at times. he died in 1939 in New York.
only after the second war, Amsterdam was chosen to become 'Fokker's main company-seat.

if anything, the remarkable Fokker himself dutch... the most famous 'Fokker' warcrafts were possibly the german triplanes, most of the civil planes were produced in USA and most of the D.XXI were built under finnish license - the dutch facilities were captured in may 1940.
after the war, production was successfully started again under the name 'Fokker'.

i thought to add this, because i always felt that the designer's name is most appropriate when discussing planes from the engineering side - and also makes it easier to disconnect from historical bias. the example of 'Fokker' shows that the name stands for great aircrafts, built and used by many nations.
the russians also started early with assigning the designers to the plane's name. but which wasn't always very strict, like 'MiG' means 'Mikoyan i Gurevich', where 'LaGG' stands for 'Lavochkin-Gorbunov-Goudkov'

on the thread's topic, i agree with tinytim... it might look pedantic to point out the specifically assigned names, but then again these assignments were officially used and as such not for discussion.
mentioning the 'correct' names from time to time also helps with understanding other issues, like the confusing 'Me' and 'Bf' types. Messerschmitt's team designed the Bf 109/110 for 'Bayerische Flugzeugwerke', before he took over and they became 'Messerschmitt AG'. so all following designs were named 'Me' and the old ones just didn't change.
i would like to know what the 'proper' official name of the Ta 152 was? probably not too relevant at the time for the rather late and few appearance, i found several variations... from 'Ta 152', 'Fw Ta 152' to 'Focke-Wulf Ta 152'. not that i really want to know about the designated names, but i would be interested in how the germans handled this - after all, they had a favour for exact documentaries.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AndyJWest:
Perhaps they thought that if they used a lower-case 'w' it would do 180 degree turns quicker... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>well, that is funny! you should start a stand-up career.
seriously, if someone starts to make 'jokes' by crosslinking thread-contents, he should worry about not to be regarded as a stalker! besides it is not even to the point in this case... pity contribution.

edit (much later, but it isn't worth it's own post):
i see that you are expanding your mobbing-spree to the 'off-topic' forum now. quite a sorry attitude of an unexpectedly low level.

Bremspropeller
05-25-2010, 08:20 AM
Deepo, one shouldn't forget that Anthony Fokker would have had a hard day, trying to sell airplanes in Europe with any "important" nation having their own share of airplane-manufacturers and a great deal of protectionism.

The ever-growing market of the US enabled him to sell his Tri-Motors in large numbers, making himself a name beyond world-war aviation-enthusiansts.

On shouldn't forget also, that a great deal of Fokker's name (although not comparable to his Triplane, which has to be one of the most iconic items of the 20th century) came from building the superb F.27 and F.28 - two planes, that opened the world to tiny airstrips nobody had ever heard of before.

Too bad, the company went bankrupt, as their F-100 and F-70 were good aircraft at the time of the company's closure.
Even though the Netherlands have started an attempt to revive this conic brand, there is little hope to see factory-fresh Fokkers to take their first flights again.

Another great name of (european) aviation-history has just vanished - and they're not included in EADS as Focke-Wulf or Messerschmitt are (of which almost nobody knows anyway...).


Referring to the Ta - that's the way it was supposed to be referred to.

"Ta 152" - no company prefix.

deepo_HP
05-25-2010, 08:39 AM
hi bremspropeller,

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
... making himself a name beyond world-war aviation-enthusiansts. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>very much agreed! that was what i intended to say: it is in my opinion more worth to remember a name as representation of the constructor than the nationality. so i like it well if the plane-types point to the designer.
and thanks for the note on the Ta 152.

Kettenhunde
05-25-2010, 09:23 AM
You can find it as both....

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/3355/fockewulfdesignation.jpg (http://img340.imageshack.us/i/fockewulfdesignation.jpg/)

The Fw is more common than the FW.