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argnan
03-06-2005, 12:24 PM
In the beaufiighter the rear guy that supposed to be a guner, why exactly is he there because i can't see anything in the back of the plane that seems to be a machine gun or something like that???

SeaNorris
03-06-2005, 12:28 PM
No he's just an observer and they didnt put that position in.

3.JG51_BigBear
03-06-2005, 01:02 PM
There is evidence that the Mk21 was equipped with a tail gunner. It would be nice if at least an observer position was added because of the limited rear vision from the cockpit. I don't think I've seen the real reason for not including the position posted yet.

whiteladder
03-06-2005, 02:01 PM
This subject has been brought up a number of times in the other forums.

I think that the rear gun wasn't factory fitted, hence they are missing from the beu in the game.

But there is some evidence as big bear points out that they were field fitted to some aircraft at least so it could be argued to put them in the game.

Another point is that as far as I know MK21 didn't use torpedos, yet they have been added to the game.

Jester_159th
03-06-2005, 02:42 PM
Beau's definately had MG's fitted in the observers position as a field mod. I think the earliest picture I've seen of a modified one was taken in 1942 during the Lybian campaign.

I'm not sure if MG's were ever factory fitted, but for a plane that size it seems a glaring ommision. Although, the Beau was initially designed to fill the night fighter role and as such wasn't expected to encounter single engined fighters, so that could be the reason for th rear armament not being fitted. Mind you, once it's roles were expanded you'd have thought the need for rear armament would have been addressed at the factory rather than leaving it up the the squadrons to modify them in the field.

Yimmy
03-06-2005, 03:07 PM
"the Beau was initially designed to fill the night fighter role"

Are you sure? I wasn't aware the MoD put out a specification for a night fighter so early, I thought it was simply a heavy long range fighter design, much like the 110.

Jester_159th
03-06-2005, 03:24 PM
Yimmy:

AFAIK, it was. At the time the RAF were using anything and everything they had in the night fighter role, including Blenheims!

One thing I remember distinctly from one of the sources I read (unfortunately I no longer have the book, and can't remember the author) said that one of the biggest problems with using the Blenheim in this role was the cockpit glasing reflected the cockpit instruments and obsured vision. The big flat windscreen and carefully designed cockpit glasing were part of the actual specification that the Beau fulfilled. This specification was purely for a night fighter to effectively combat the Luftwaffe's switch to night bombing (which happened sometime around the end of 1940/ beginning of 1941).

Once the threat from the blitz began to subside the Beau was switched to other duties.

Unfortunately, as I said, I no longer have the books where I read this, and could be mistaken in how I remember it. If someone has the information to hand to either confirm it (or prove that my memory is now gone and I am officially senile!!) I'd appreciate it.

Crash_Moses
03-06-2005, 03:52 PM
You're both right. According to the Illustrated Directory of Fighting Aircraft of World War II the Beaufighter was designed as a:

"long-range fighter...capable of effective bomber escort and night fighting."

It's armament included: Four 20mm Hispano cannon...one 0.303in Vickers K aimed by observer...One 1,605lb torpedo on centerline...

There are several illustrations and photos showing the observer bubble both with and without the rear firing Vickers (the Coastal TF.X and earlier R2059 respectively).

It also mentions that in earlier models the 20mm cannons were hand loaded by the observer with 60-round drums.

The only other mention of its role as night fighter is:

"Early models barely exceeded 300mph...Speed was soon judged less important when the need for night fighters to beat the Blitz became urgent."

It's also noted that most of the data in the book is based on the later Mk X and not from earlier models.


P.S. Hi, Yimmy!

Oilburner_TAW
03-06-2005, 04:11 PM
Moses beat me to it...

.303 vickers (single) was standard armament for the observer...

p1ngu666
03-06-2005, 04:48 PM
our beu has half the ammo carried by most http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif
got 120ish, rather than the 200, 240 and 283 which seem more likely http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

dssinclair
03-06-2005, 06:31 PM
The Bristol Beaufighter was hastily put together after the Munich crisis. The specification was for a long-range fighter to be produced in the shortest possible time. The Beaufort was just nearing completion, and the Beaufighter was based heavily on this design. The prototype flew on 17 July 1938, the first operational planes were delivered 27 July 1940 and sent to 25 & 27 squadrons on 2 Sept 1940.It was the Mk IF that was the first night fighter version, without a turret gun. The Mk V was the first with a gunner, in a Boulton-Paul designed turret with 4 x 0.303 machine guns. I do not think any turret had cannon. The Beau Mk IIF was the only Merlin engined type, and was also a night fighter, but was in addition used by the Fleet Air Arm for anti-ship attack. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Yimmy:
"the Beau was initially designed to fill the night fighter role"

Are you sure? I wasn't aware the MoD put out a specification for a night fighter so early, I thought it was simply a heavy long range fighter design, much like the 110. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

dssinclair
03-06-2005, 06:42 PM
I believe that the version with the single Vickers 0.303 machine gun fired by the observer was the TF-MK X, anti-shipping strike version. A similar version was built under licence in Australia, and was the cheif aerial destroyer of Japanese ships in the area where they were flown. Contrary to popular US mythology, it was this Aussie Beau that was called "Whispering Death" by the Japanese.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Crash_Moses:
You're both right. According to the _Illustrated Directory of Fighting Aircraft of World War II_ the Beaufighter was designed as a:

"long-range fighter...capable of effective bomber escort and night fighting."

It's armament included: Four 20mm Hispano cannon...one 0.303in Vickers K aimed by observer...One 1,605lb torpedo on centerline...

There are several illustrations and photos showing the observer bubble both with and without the rear firing Vickers (the Coastal TF.X and earlier R2059 respectively).

It also mentions that in earlier models the 20mm cannons were hand loaded by the observer with 60-round drums.

The only other mention of its role as night fighter is:

"Early models barely exceeded 300mph...Speed was soon judged less important when the need for night fighters to beat the Blitz became urgent."

It's also noted that most of the data in the book is based on the later Mk X and not from earlier models.


P.S. Hi, Yimmy! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>