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Jure_502
03-08-2011, 03:07 AM
As I recently started playing Juri_js's Home defence campaign, flying J2M3's against Amercian bombing raids against mainland Japan I began to wonder how many B-29's were shot down over Japan.

It's quite hard to bring it down even in the game (except with successful head-on attack), so it must have been a real treat to bring it down IRL.

Are there any exact numbers on B-29's lost due to IJA/IJN fighters and antiaircraft fire?

Jure_502
03-08-2011, 03:07 AM
As I recently started playing Juri_js's Home defence campaign, flying J2M3's against Amercian bombing raids against mainland Japan I began to wonder how many B-29's were shot down over Japan.

It's quite hard to bring it down even in the game (except with successful head-on attack), so it must have been a real treat to bring it down IRL.

Are there any exact numbers on B-29's lost due to IJA/IJN fighters and antiaircraft fire?

M_Gunz
03-08-2011, 05:11 AM
A number of them didn't make the 7 hour trip back to Tinian. So "shot down over Japan" isn't the same as "lost". I have that from a man who flew B-29's from Tinian. There were enough that didn't make it that a lot of crew would deliberately play poker right up to leaving and stop the last hand before finishing because then you just HAVE to make it back to finish.

On one mission, Joe as bombardier took shrapnel to the head and spent the entire trip home lying on the very cold deck. And he went back again because he couldn't leave the others short and look in a mirror again. On one mission they dropped at the leading edge of a firestorm and the thermal picked the plane up, flipped it and by the time they pulled out of the dive the thing was bent and heat buckled. They ditched at Iwo that time and all got medals, Joe got an extra for flying the plane right into danger just to precision bomb and incidentally signal the rest of the formation to drop theirs, boombedy-boomb, right where they should hit as per the mission.
They almost bought it from no cause of AA or fighters. That was their Teddy Roosevelt mission, a rough riding SOB, the worst he recalled to me.

He also did say that he saw Japanese fighter pilots did shoot USAAF crew in parachutes and he shot theirs when he could.

RSS-Martin
03-08-2011, 05:14 AM
Get yourself this book and you have most of the information you are looking for very detailed!
B-29 Hunters (http://www.amazon.com/B-29-Hunters-Osprey-Aviation-Elite/dp/1841761613)
It has lots of pictures and eye witness accounts, of various B-29s that where brought down. And it seems to be a fair amount, that either where shot down through flak, fighters, or where rammed.
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m290/RSS-Martin/Flugzeuge/scan0040-2.jpg
This B-29 of the 770th BS/462nd BG was rammed over Mukden on the 7th of Dec. 1944 only two survivors, which ended up as POWs

Xiolablu3
03-08-2011, 05:37 AM
It seems that the bomb crews of B29's had a leanient leader and a good sense of humour.

Some of the names are hilarious. One in a film I saw today was called 'Purple Shaft'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vb27Dj4YCVM&t=5m12s

ROXunreal
03-08-2011, 06:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jure_502:
It's quite hard to bring it down even in the game (except with successful head-on attack), so it must have been a real treat to bring it down IRL.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't even bother shooting anywhere except at the cockpit if you don't have anything bigger than 20mm. A few 20mm in the cockpit area will bring them down more often than not though. Wings and fuselage are a waste of time (edit: not sure about wingtips though, may have to try that), often even with with 30mm let alone 20, you're more likely to get killed by a gunner before you do enough damage this way.

Speaking of B29's, I cannot for the life of me understand how the remote controlled turrets worked. How....how? In 1945? Who would operate them? How would they operate more than only one of them at a time? And how the hell did they even see the turret's gunsight and where they were shooting?

RSS-Martin
03-08-2011, 07:03 AM
Yes several had rather interesting names!

http://forum.ioh.pl/graficzki/b-29.tittymouse.73rdbombwing.saipan.jpg
Martin-Omaha B-29-10-MO Superfortress (s/n 42-65212) named "Mrs. Tittymouse" from the 875th BS, 498th BG, 20th AF. Lost to flak on the April 7,1945...


This one was viewed with a lot of interest by Japanese fellows but with disgust by the Japanese women.
The bomber guys had at least humor!

RSS-Martin
03-08-2011, 08:04 AM
Although not only B-29s had funny names here a small collection of WWII bombers
http://forum.ioh.pl/graficzki/b-24.dinkyduck.446thbg.jpg
http://forum.ioh.pl/graficzki/b-24h.naughtynan.446thbg.705thsqd.jpg
http://forum.ioh.pl/graficzki/b-24h.thebigdrip.446thbg.jpg

mortoma
03-08-2011, 09:33 AM
I shot down a bunch of 29s in a J2M3 and J2M5 and I never shot at the cockpit area. Always the wings and engines and I would get them on fire in a lot of cases. And even if they didn't go down right away they would end up down much later. The typical slow death you see in the game, usually from slowly dying engines that are smoking. Still counts though. I also rarely get shot down by gunners. I might get some damage typically.

berg417448
03-08-2011, 09:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ROXunreal:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jure_502:
It's quite hard to bring it down even in the game (except with successful head-on attack), so it must have been a real treat to bring it down IRL.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't even bother shooting anywhere except at the cockpit if you don't have anything bigger than 20mm. A few 20mm in the cockpit area will bring them down more often than not though. Wings and fuselage are a waste of time (edit: not sure about wingtips though, may have to try that), often even with with 30mm let alone 20, you're more likely to get killed by a gunner before you do enough damage this way.

Speaking of B29's, I cannot for the life of me understand how the remote controlled turrets worked. How....how? In 1945? Who would operate them? How would they operate more than only one of them at a time? And how the hell did they even see the turret's gunsight and where they were shooting? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

B-29 gunnery system explained:

http://www.twinbeech.com/CFCsystem.htm

Treetop64
03-08-2011, 10:30 AM
Pretty sophisticated stuff back then.

One of the coolest features of the B-29 gunnery system is that, if needed, any combination of gunners can simultaneously control any number of turrets on the plane, except the 20mm at the back, I think.

Computer-controlled combat systems have been around for a very, very long time. Mind you, the computers themselves were big, heavy, sprawling electro-mechanical systems, but the functions were still the same. The late-war American radar guided fire control systems on the South Dakota and Iowa BBs, as well as the Alaska BCs, were almost incomprehensibly advanced systems; far more advanced than anything anyone else had at the time. And the Germans get so much credit for being "tech" in WWII.

Bremspropeller
03-08-2011, 12:54 PM
Were the B-29s depressurized before going "feet dry" over Japan?

M2morris
03-08-2011, 04:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Treetop64:
Pretty sophisticated stuff back then.

One of the coolest features of the B-29 gunnery system is that, if needed, any combination of gunners can simultaneously control any number of turrets on the plane, except the 20mm at the back, I think.



Computer-controlled combat systems have been around for a very, very long time. Mind you, the computers themselves were big, heavy, sprawling electro-mechanical systems, but the functions were still the same. The late-war American radar guided fire control systems on the South Dakota and Iowa BBs, as well as the Alaska BCs, were almost incomprehensibly advanced systems; far more advanced than anything anyone else had at the time. And the Germans get so much credit for being "tech" in WWII. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
An interesting thread. I was waiting in an airport talking to an old retired Navy guy and he told me about the computerized systems they had in battle ships during WW2. He said if a one ton round had to fly 15 miles to a land-based target the rotation of the earth was considered in the calculations for added accuracy.

TheCrux
03-08-2011, 04:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ROXunreal:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jure_502:
It's quite hard to bring it down even in the game (except with successful head-on attack), so it must have been a real treat to bring it down IRL.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't even bother shooting anywhere except at the cockpit if you don't have anything bigger than 20mm. A few 20mm in the cockpit area will bring them down more often than not though. Wings and fuselage are a waste of time (edit: not sure about wingtips though, may have to try that), often even with with 30mm let alone 20, you're more likely to get killed by a gunner before you do enough damage this way.

Speaking of B29's, I cannot for the life of me understand how the remote controlled turrets worked. How....how? In 1945? Who would operate them? How would they operate more than only one of them at a time? And how the hell did they even see the turret's gunsight and where they were shooting? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, very tough. I've been lucky and took one down in a Ki-61 Hei in 1 pass...but...I've raked one from below with a Ki-46 with the upward firing "shrage musik" 37mm cannon and was amazed at how many hits the wings and fuselage would take and the thing still flies.

Between its heavy armament and high speed, that is one tough SOB to bring down and yet RTB unscathed.

TheCrux
03-08-2011, 04:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RSS-Martin:
Get yourself this book and you have most of the information you are looking for very detailed!
B-29 Hunters (http://www.amazon.com/B-29-Hunters-Osprey-Aviation-Elite/dp/1841761613)
It has lots of pictures and eye witness accounts, of various B-29s that where brought down. And it seems to be a fair amount, that either where shot down through flak, fighters, or where rammed.
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m290/RSS-Martin/Flugzeuge/scan0040-2.jpg
This B-29 of the 770th BS/462nd BG was rammed over Mukden on the 7th of Dec. 1944 only two survivors, which ended up as POWs </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the link Wutz, just ordered the book for my ever expanding library.

Treetop64
03-08-2011, 04:23 PM
In the game, I have yet to shoot down, let alone shoot at, a B-29 without being lit up myself. AI was always at veteran or ace difficulty. Based on this, I suspect I would have absolutely dreaded B-29 intercept missions if I were a IJA fighter pilot IRL...

ROXunreal
03-08-2011, 05:38 PM
Basicaly going after them in japanese planes if you don't have enough altitude advantage to bnz is suicidal.

Metatron_123
03-08-2011, 05:38 PM
I think that the ai gunners on veteran and ace are unrealistically accurate. Set them to rookie, any bomber should have trouble dealing with heavily armed fighters.

horseback
03-09-2011, 12:43 PM
Most of the advantage that fighters had over bombers in WWII was due to relative speed differences and the difficulty of estimating proper deflection from a moving bomber unless the target was either at a level six or 12 o'clock to the gunner.

At altitude, the B-29 was almost as fast as most of the Japanese fighters pursuing it; unless the Japanese fighter was already at altitude, in the area and up to speed, he faced a long tail chase. Combined with its computing fire control system, this gave the B-29 a great advantage over previous 'heavies' when faced with fighter interception.

This is why so many Japanese tactics involved ramming or literally 'landing' on top of the Superfortress.

cheers

horseback

ROXunreal
03-09-2011, 08:49 PM
Yep, same in the game. After you do the headon on the 29's at altitude, it's a looong chase after them, and you can't just go after them on their 6 as you will die, so you need to get into a favorable position, preferably ahead and above them, if you want to do BnZ, and again, one or two passes and again a long chase. Going after a group of B-29's in significant numbers with Japanese stuff is one of the most futile and desperate mission scenarios you can get in this game. Shooting down one is an achievement, shooting down 2 is OMG-worthy. At least from my experience, I may just suck...

M_Gunz
03-09-2011, 10:21 PM
From what I was told, most B-29 bombing runs were at 18-20,000 ft.

jeffmorgan_947
03-10-2011, 12:47 AM
One account of the losses states- 414 B29 lost, 147 of these lost to flack or fighters,3015 aircrew dead,wounded or missing.

note, The design, development and building of the B29 in terms of cost was the most expensive program ever undertaken by the Americans during WW11.

RSS-Martin
03-10-2011, 01:06 AM
Well that with the numbers, unless some official document is there is a little bit of a guess. In the book B-29 hunters from Osprey they mention a overall total loss of 360 aircraft. But still that is a lot of crews who did not make it!

Jagdgeschwader2
03-10-2011, 06:05 AM
Don't forget that LeMay ordered all gun turrets removed in order to increase bomb load. Only the rear 20mm remained.

Fifi after restoration.
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Some old photos I took of Fifi before the resto. She was looking rather rough back then. She is based only a few hours from me so I'll have to go and see her again.

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x277/Jagdgeschwader2/107_0760.jpg

The tail is just huge!
http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x277/Jagdgeschwader2/107_0755.jpg

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x277/Jagdgeschwader2/107_0768.jpg

The B-29 is the only bomber that has a pole for strippers. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x277/Jagdgeschwader2/107_0771.jpg

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x277/Jagdgeschwader2/107_0772.jpg

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x277/Jagdgeschwader2/JG2Mobile.jpg

ROXunreal
03-10-2011, 09:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jagdgeschwader2:
http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x277/Jagdgeschwader2/107_0771.jpg
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://news.cnet.com/i/ne/p/2007/hyperspace_550x308.jpg

TheGrunch
03-10-2011, 10:07 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Jagdgeschwader2
03-10-2011, 09:55 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif I wonder if they actually used the cockpit from a scrapped B-29 for the Falcon set. It's a near pefect copy.


http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x277/Jagdgeschwader2/JG2Mobile.jpg

ROXunreal
03-11-2011, 09:35 AM
It's a similar pattern but still pretty different. I actually looked up if the B-29 was an inspiration for the falcon yesterday, but couldn't find any proof that it was...

Oh and:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ROXunreal:
Yep, same in the game. After you do the headon on the 29's at altitude, it's a looong chase after them, and you can't just go after them on their 6 as you will die, so you need to get into a favorable position, preferably ahead and above them, if you want to do BnZ, and again, one or two passes and again a long chase. Going after a group of B-29's in significant numbers with Japanese stuff is one of the most futile and desperate mission scenarios you can get in this game. Shooting down one is an achievement, shooting down 2 is OMG-worthy. At least from my experience, I may just suck... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I forgot about escorts. Add a few mustangs to the scenario and it gets even more desperate. Seriously it must have been so depressing being a Japanese pilot in '45 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Erkki_M
03-11-2011, 10:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ROXunreal:
It's a similar pattern but still pretty different. I actually looked up if the B-29 was an inspiration for the falcon yesterday, but couldn't find any proof that it was...

Oh and:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ROXunreal:
Yep, same in the game. After you do the headon on the 29's at altitude, it's a looong chase after them, and you can't just go after them on their 6 as you will die, so you need to get into a favorable position, preferably ahead and above them, if you want to do BnZ, and again, one or two passes and again a long chase. Going after a group of B-29's in significant numbers with Japanese stuff is one of the most futile and desperate mission scenarios you can get in this game. Shooting down one is an achievement, shooting down 2 is OMG-worthy. At least from my experience, I may just suck... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I forgot about escorts. Add a few mustangs to the scenario and it gets even more desperate. Seriously it must have been so depressing being a Japanese pilot in late -42. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fix'd

JSG72
03-11-2011, 12:33 PM
Have not long finished reading B-29 Hunters. (2 days ago.)
This book Is not too in depth but certainly does cover The Ace japanese pilots. with notice that many claims were refuted. as many Japanese pilots would claim victory even if the B-29 was only smoking. Many definate kills, were caused by ramming. With a few of the Japanese pilots surviving to fly and kill again.
Ki-45 "Nicks" being a popular weapon.with its 37mm cannon.(Unfortunately not modeled in Sim)
The KI-61-Kaic was used by Japanese "Celebrity" Pilot Teruhiko Kobayashi.
Many kill markings found on Japanese planes were awarded to the whole Sentai and not just the pilot of the plane.
Also Note that the B-29 War was in 3 major Phases 1)High altitude Bombing(over 30,000 ft.)as professed by Gen Haywood Hansell. These mission caused the Japanese to lighten their planes to try to intercept the bombing missions over Tokyo.
It was the unacceptable bombingresults of these missions that made Curtis Le May to come to the conclusion to fly lower altitude combat.Thus Phase 2 missions.
2) Targets were attacked between 12-15,000ft This allowed the defenders the ability to attack with normally armed planes. with lighter armed sections forming Shinten(Ramming)sections of the Sentai.
3)This last phase had the bombers being escorted. But not so completely as was the case in the West. Some 98 B-29s fell during May and June'45 The highest number to fall during any 2 month bombing period.

It seems tactics throught JAAF was to attack "Head on" if you wanted to destroy by gunnery alone.
Many accompanied this tactic with a light Ram to cause damage. (Instances of multiple destruction being recorded.)
Other than that it was as in the West. Where a wounded craft would be set upon by many defenders until destruction was claimed. Usually by more than one pilot.

JSG72
03-11-2011, 01:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JSG72:
Have not long finished reading B-29 Hunters. (2 days ago.)
This book Is not too in depth but certainly does cover The Ace japanese pilots. with notice that many claims were refuted. as many Japanese pilots would claim victory even if the B-29 was only smoking. Many definate kills, were caused by ramming. With a few of the Japanese pilots surviving to fly and kill again.
Ki-45 "Nicks" being a popular weapon.with its 37mm cannon.(Unfortunately not modeled in Sim)
The KI-61-Kaic was used by Japanese "Celebrity" Pilot Teruhiko Kobayashi.
Many kill markings found on Japanese planes were awarded to the whole Sentai and not just the pilot of the plane.
Also Note that the B-29 War was in 3 major Phases 1)High altitude Bombing(over 30,000 ft.)as professed by Gen Haywood Hansell. These mission caused the Japanese to lighten their planes to try to intercept the bombing missions over Tokyo.
It was the unacceptable bombingresults of these missions that made Curtis Le May to come to the conclusion to fly lower altitude combat.Thus Phase 2 missions.
2) Targets were attacked between 12-15,000ft This allowed the defenders the ability to attack with normally armed planes. with lighter armed sections forming Shinten(Ramming)sections of the Sentai.
3)This last phase had the bombers being escorted. But not so completely as was the case in the West. Some 98 B-29s fell during May and June'45 The highest number to fall during any 2 month bombing period.

It seems tactics throught JAAF was to attack "Head on" if you wanted to destroy by gunnery alone.
Many accompanied this tactic with a light Ram to cause damage. (Instances of multiple destruction being recorded.)
Other than that it was as in the West. Where a wounded craft would be set upon by many defenders until destruction was claimed. Usually by more than one pilot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

BTW. I just shot down 2 in a mission Ki-84c. One head on.(7500metres Alt. I noticed cockpit hits on pass. On turning to chase. His port wing folded and down. 2nd was a 500mtr. deflection shot on nose and starboard. It blew to pieces. I chased a 3rd on WEP but engine got hit just as I passed under. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif I bailed.