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View Full Version : "What if" the P-40 had a Merlin?



zardozid
09-27-2008, 05:03 PM
I love flying the P-40 (in game obviously), and I just recently started to really explore the P-51. I'm starting to fall in love with the P-51's (but that's another thread)...they zoom along, and the 50's rip stuff up (I don't really know why some people hate the 50's...but that's yet another topic_LOL).

I know that their are more then a few differences between the P-40 and the P-51 (the laminar flow wings being a notable one) and one of the big advantages was the fuel capacity (the range) of the P-51...BUT "what if" the P-40 has been given a "Packhard Merlin" engine? Could its usefulness in the "battle field of the sky" have been extended into 1944 & 1945? In other words could the Merlin have made the P-40 a competitive air superiority fighter against the late war Axis fighters?

What do you think?

http://www.richard-seaman.com/Aircraft/AirShows/YankeeAirMuseum2006/Highlights/P40P51Tom2006.jpg

zardozid
09-27-2008, 05:03 PM
I love flying the P-40 (in game obviously), and I just recently started to really explore the P-51. I'm starting to fall in love with the P-51's (but that's another thread)...they zoom along, and the 50's rip stuff up (I don't really know why some people hate the 50's...but that's yet another topic_LOL).

I know that their are more then a few differences between the P-40 and the P-51 (the laminar flow wings being a notable one) and one of the big advantages was the fuel capacity (the range) of the P-51...BUT "what if" the P-40 has been given a "Packhard Merlin" engine? Could its usefulness in the "battle field of the sky" have been extended into 1944 & 1945? In other words could the Merlin have made the P-40 a competitive air superiority fighter against the late war Axis fighters?

What do you think?

http://www.richard-seaman.com/Aircraft/AirShows/YankeeAirMuseum2006/Highlights/P40P51Tom2006.jpg

Dustysquareback
09-27-2008, 05:09 PM
It did. P-40 K had Merlin engines, and fared quite well in the MTO up against superior planes like the 109F-4 and the FW190.

zardozid
09-27-2008, 05:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dustysquareback:
It did. P-40 K had Merlin engines, and fared quite well in the MTO up against superior planes like the 109F-4 and the FW190. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes i just discovered that...sorry. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

stalkervision
09-27-2008, 05:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by zardozid:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dustysquareback:
It did. P-40 K had Merlin engines, and fared quite well in the MTO up against superior planes like the 109F-4 and the FW190. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes i just discovered that...sorry. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I had the very same thought recently till I found that out too zardozid. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_P-40_variants

Dustysquareback
09-27-2008, 05:29 PM
Oops! I meant the F. And some L's I think. The K was the version with the larger tail fin IIRC.

Airmail109
09-27-2008, 06:31 PM
That P-51 is stunning. Really stunning!

zardozid
09-27-2008, 07:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aimail101:
That P-51 is stunning. Really stunning! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I usually fly a lot of early war Axis stuff...I have gotten "ok" with the 2 12mil guns in the KI-43's, but give me 6 50's and I "kick ***"(LOL)!!

M_Gunz
09-27-2008, 09:25 PM
P-40M's were in use late WWII.

Boosher
09-27-2008, 09:46 PM
Merlin powered P-40F

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/images/p40_19.jpg

triad773
09-27-2008, 09:52 PM
Definitely interesting, but I'd always considered 'what if the Allison had a supercharger' be it a P-40, or P-39?

Sorry for the tangent but thought it was equally interesting. Thoughts?

Triad

M_Gunz
09-27-2008, 10:33 PM
Turbocharger, as in P-38. Others had the single-stage supercharger.

ElAurens
09-27-2008, 10:56 PM
All Allisons that were not turbocharged did have superchargers.

What they lacked were 2 speed-2 stage superchargers as in the later Merlins.

Remember that the Hurricanes originally had single speed supers and were not good at altitude either.

BTW the Merlin engined P40s were not of the 2 speed-2 stage type and really were no faster than an Allison engined P40.

The P40N was the fastest of all P40s and it was Allison powered. (Should have been included in the release of PF).

The last P40 was built in November of 1944, and a few were still in service in China at the end of the war.

Mr_Zooly
09-28-2008, 02:15 AM
I would like to see a P40Q in the game.

Curtiss took three late model airframes, two P-40K's and a P-40N and heavily modified these to produce the XP-40Q. With revised cooling systems, two-stage superchargers, and structural changes which markedly altered their appearance speed increased to 422 mph at 20,500 feet, making them the fastest of all the P-40s. An altitude of 20,000 feet could be reached in 4.8 minutes, and service ceiling was 39,000 feet. Four 0.5-inch machine guns were carried by the prototypes.

rileyjams
09-28-2008, 08:40 AM
I'd much rather have this P-40 ingame
http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/8449/20048305nv7.jpg

stalkervision
09-28-2008, 09:33 AM
http://aeroweb.brooklyn.cuny.edu/images/scaled/aec01830.jpg

p-40 q

R_Target
09-28-2008, 09:37 AM
Ha, Stalker beat me to it. Anyway, here's another:

http://www.warbirdsite.com/P-40Q.jpg

sw25th
09-28-2008, 09:38 AM
what if the p-40 had a DB605D

stalkervision
09-28-2008, 09:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by R_Target:
Ha, Stalker beat me to it. Anyway, here's another:

http://www.warbirdsite.com/P-40Q.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Like yout picture better buddy. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

BillyTheKid_22
09-28-2008, 10:31 AM
www.p40warhawk.com/ (http://www.p40warhawk.com/)

Xiolablu3
09-28-2008, 10:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sw25th:
what if the p-40 had a DB605D </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or a RR griffon? :P

general_kalle
09-28-2008, 10:58 AM
now that's one sleek P40..looks more like a FW190 D9 than an P51...

R_Target
09-28-2008, 12:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sw25th:
what if the p-40 had a DB605D </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or a RR griffon? :P </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What if Bf109 had a Merlin?


Oh, wait a second.......

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

jensenpark
09-28-2008, 12:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
http://aeroweb.brooklyn.cuny.edu/images/scaled/aec01830.jpg

p-40 q </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is one nice looking p40...

what were the performance/flight characteristics on it?

R_Target
09-28-2008, 01:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jensenpark:
That is one nice looking p40...

what were the performance/flight characteristics on it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A little slower than a P-51D IIRC.

Mr_Zooly
09-28-2008, 02:50 PM
422 mph at 20,500 feet, an altitude of 20,000 feet could be reached in 4.8 minutes, and service ceiling was 39,000 feet.

GerritJ9
09-28-2008, 03:10 PM
Given that Il2 started as a Russian Front sim, the exclusion of the P-40N is strange indeed; according to William Green, the majority of the P-40s shipped to the Soviet Union were Ns.
The last air force to use the P-40 operationally was the ML-KNIL, the Netherlands East Indies Army Air Force. The P-40N remained in service with the ML until 1949, shortly before Indonesia became independent.

struth
09-28-2008, 07:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jensenpark:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
http://aeroweb.brooklyn.cuny.edu/images/scaled/aec01830.jpg

p-40 q </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is one nice looking p40...

what were the performance/flight characteristics on it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It looks like the engine is longer; the air duct for the oil cooling system once on top of the nose is gone; the air filters under the engine appear to have been retained but appear to be much smaller (so there may be a supercharged or even turbocharged engine in there); there is no evidence of the old radiator flaps (which lessens drag problem); there is a dorsal fin near the tailplane probably to correct the swing the old P-40 was reknown for on takeoff; the rear fuselage is also more streamlined (probably to assist lateral stability). Love that canopy!

I want one of those after the war!

and yes...strange we have no P-40Ns on the Eastern Front.

WTE_Galway
09-28-2008, 07:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by R_Target:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sw25th:
what if the p-40 had a DB605D </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or a RR griffon? :P </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What if Bf109 had a Merlin?


Oh, wait a second.......

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There were also DB powered Hurricanes about.

ElAurens
09-28-2008, 07:47 PM
The air duct on top of the nose was the carb air intake. The Merlin engined model had a deeper lower intake to accomodate the Merlins low intake, and the radiator and oil cooler which is normally in the chin of the P40. The Q model's Allison uses a supercharger/carb setup like a Merlin and hence has no upper intake.

The DB powered Hurris were converted by the Belgians as I recall. I don't think any were finished before they were overun by the Facist pigs.

WTE_Galway
09-28-2008, 07:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ElAurens:

The DB powered Hurris were converted by the Belgians as I recall. I don't think any were finished before they were overun by the Facist pigs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not sure about the Belgians but Yugoslavia definitely tried a conversion:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wikipedia article:
During 1938, The Yugoslav government concluded an agreement with Hawker to purchase 12 Hurricane Is for the Royal Yugoslav Air Force and followed this up with an order for 12 more together with a manufacturing licence to allow production of the fighter at the Rogozarski (orders for 60) and Zmaj (orders for 40) factories. These plants, together with the Ikarus concern, had been designing and manufacturing sporting and training aircraft since the 1920s. Production was expected to reach eight per month from each assembly line by mid-1941. In the event, by the time of the German onslaught of April 1941, which put an end to further production, Zmaj had delivered 20 Hurricanes but Rogorzarski had delivered none.

The local design team working on improved versions of the IK-3 fighter had originally planned to power later IK-3s with new 1,100 h.p. Hispano-Suiza 12Y-51 engine. The German occupation of France had frustrated this plan, and it therefore become necessary to consider a British or German engine. The Air Ministry favoured the DB 601 A, and as part of IK-3 development program, a Daimler-Benz engine was installed experimentally in a Hurricane airframe in 1940.

Engineers Ilic and Sivcev at the Ikarus plant Zemun, outside Belgrade, made the conversion by the fitting of new engine bearers, cowlings and cooling system manufactured at the Ikarus factory. The one Hurricane fitted with a DB601A engine for comparison with the Merlin-engined version was tested early in 1941. It was given the designation "LVT-1".

The conversion was extremely successful, and experimental aircraft displayed better take-off performance and climb rate than either the standard Hurricane or the Bf 109 E-3 and was only slightly slower than the latter. JKRV pilots who flew the Hurricane conversion considered it to be superior to the standard mode. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

struth
09-28-2008, 09:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ElAurens:
The air duct on top of the nose was the carb air intake. The Merlin engined model had a deeper lower intake to accomodate the Merlins low intake, and the radiator and oil cooler which is normally in the chin of the P40. The Q model's Allison uses a supercharger/carb setup like a Merlin and hence has no upper intake.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the correction of oversight on Carb intake. The long intake was needed to feed the Carburettor placed at the back of the engine.

The lack of the Carb Intake on top began with the P-40F series and was a marker for the Packard Merlin installations (V-1650). the F also introduced the longer streamlined fuselage still evident in the photo of the thread.

The P40N was lower max speed (343mph @ 15000ft) than the E (Allison - 366 mph @ 15000ft) but it's range was twice that of the E with a critical advantage in climb (2120ft in 60 seconds) over the E (2050 ft). The N also had a 2000 ft higher ceiling (31000ft).

It seems for combat operations, range and ceiling occasionally over-rode speed between earlier and later types.

Enforcer572005
10-02-2008, 12:48 AM
Most of the Fs had long fuselages, but the early ones didn't. Makes for some intersting variations. The L was an F with only 4 .50s instead of 6, an attempt to reduce weight.

They both saw extensive action over N. Africa and the med, Fs taking off from carriers to deploy in operation Torch.

The tuskegee guys (forgive me for forgetting the FG number) were equipped wiht Ls when they went into combat there. They did well in dogfights on the rare times they got into such in that cmpn.

They also saw some action in the Pacific, as I've seen pix of Fs flying with Corsairs over the Solomons in 43, but I know nothing of htier use there.

It was an interesting concept, but it really made little difference. I think the K had hte highest actual performance with an Allison....I think.

I'm pretty sure the single Q was sold after the war and used in air races for a short time, being lost in one.

zardozid
10-02-2008, 04:33 AM
Wow, this thread has had quite a "second-life"... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif