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general_kalle
06-09-2007, 02:57 AM
so here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzgYkfq9OVw&mode=related&search=)we have footage of a 109 taxiing and flying.
listen to the engine.

how come that il2 is not like that??
what would it take to travel around the world to find the working engines form ww2 planes and putting it into the game?
okay some planes doenst exist anymore but then "Try" to make it realistic.

someone give me a reason why its not done like that.

i hope its better in BOB.
we have flying spitfires, flying hurricanes and of course flying me109's

general_kalle
06-09-2007, 02:57 AM
so here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzgYkfq9OVw&mode=related&search=)we have footage of a 109 taxiing and flying.
listen to the engine.

how come that il2 is not like that??
what would it take to travel around the world to find the working engines form ww2 planes and putting it into the game?
okay some planes doenst exist anymore but then "Try" to make it realistic.

someone give me a reason why its not done like that.

i hope its better in BOB.
we have flying spitfires, flying hurricanes and of course flying me109's

slipBall
06-09-2007, 03:40 AM
It seems that sound is not very important to most pilots. I think SOW will be much better than IL2

micksaf
06-09-2007, 03:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by general_kalle:
so here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzgYkfq9OVw&mode=related&search=)we have footage of a 109 taxiing and flying.
listen to the engine.

how come that il2 is not like that??
what would it take to travel around the world to find the working engines form ww2 planes and putting it into the game?
okay some planes doenst exist anymore but then "Try" to make it realistic.

someone give me a reason why its not done like that.

i hope its better in BOB.
we have flying spitfires, flying hurricanes and of course flying me109's </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif ...but it looks like BoB won't be much different for reasons Oleg himself gave some time ago.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

msalama
06-09-2007, 03:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">how come that il2 is not like that?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because Oleg decided to use synthesized sounds for resource-saving reasons. HTH http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

flakwagen
06-09-2007, 04:17 AM
Yes, resources is the reason. Computers are more powerful today, but not powerful enough to do everything that would be required to accurately simulate the accoustics of an engine and the physics of flight. I think that will happen one day, but we aren't there yet.

Another thing to consider is the ability of users to tolerate an unpleasant sound. I've noticed that the engine noises of most AI-only planes are very harsh, whereas almost all of the flyable planes have an engine noise that isn't too harsh on the ears.


Flak

Feathered_IV
06-09-2007, 04:19 AM
Oleg maintains that the sound in FB is fantastic, if only you throw enough high-end hardware at it to do so. Unfortunately, there is no evidence of this great sound. Even official trailers for the 1946 addon had such pathetic engine noises as to be almost embarrassing (remember the trailer of the Lerche starting up?).

Normally, if you want something better graphics wise, you can at least see a screenshot or something to show you what an upgrade will do for you. With sound, there is no mp3 recording or anything that lets you know what you are missing. We're just supposed to take it on trust that a thousand bucks will somehow make this game sound better than your average YouTube vid.

I'm beginning to think that the people who do the sounds and default skins for Oleg must be close friends or family members. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif

MrMojok
06-09-2007, 04:46 AM
I've never heard any evidence of these great sounds, either. Although I remember a post on these boards from a couple of years ago, in which someone claimed that he'd heard Oleg's sound system and it sounded beautiful (might have been a troll... I had not been around long enough to learn who the trolls and jokesters were http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)

In Jane's WWII fighters, I remember replacing the 'flyby' sounds for the Mustang with actual recording Mustang flybys. Which would be cool here, but then again you are opening stuff up for modding which would eventually ruin the online factor. Plus, I suppose for some of these planes, you are never going to find an actual high-quality recording of their engines.

partic_3
06-09-2007, 04:59 AM
I think straight out recorded sounds don't work well, for example BOB WOV. It sounds great the first time but the lack of variation and the obvious cut'n'pastedness of it starts to get very annoying. Synthesising it is the only way to go. Hopefully it will be better in SOW.

mbfRoy
06-09-2007, 05:20 AM
I don't think it's possible to record the sounds of, say, a 7.1 sound system in a mono microphone or stereo mixer and get a clue of what it sounds like. I've toyed with the sound options and while I'm limited to quad speakers because that's all I've got (and an not-so-good onboard sound card), different settings increase the amount of synthetised sounds playing at once.

I haven't been able to record the sounds correctly in fraps. The only option I've found is recording Stereo Mix in sound input, which cuts out the sound coming from the rear speakers and the center bass channel.

Anyway, the planes' sounds I like the most are 2-engined in external views, specially the P-38 which sounds incredibly well. Still, I can't seem to be able to record that in fraps properly

Capt.LoneRanger
06-09-2007, 05:40 AM
Oleg allready admitted, that the sounds were a mistake. They were recorded on the original engines, inside and outside in a painstaking process.

Now people with onboard soundchips and cheap headsets or budget 5.1 systems connected to their onboard-chips complain about the lousy sound quality. So Oleg decided to use synthezied sounds for BoB with a more Hollywood-Style and with a lower quality, so everybody can hear the sounds as they should be.

I use an X-FI with a simple stereo-headset, but one with a range from 8 to 23,000 Hz. The sound of the engines is awesome with this setup and you can very nicely distinguish between a 109, a FW190 and a Pony. The roaring 50s on a 47 are literally breathtaking.

Wonder what BoB will sound like http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

MrMojok
06-09-2007, 06:29 AM
I'd like to hear the sounds that way, LoneRanger!


I am kind of torn on the issue. Some of the sounds seem bad on my rig. The external flybys are always kind of lame, and so do the external gunfire sounds a lot of the time. The engines from inside your cockpit, and the gun sounds inside sound pretty darn cool at times though.

Bearcat99
06-09-2007, 07:27 AM
My sounds aren't bad.... they aren't great.. but they are certainly not show stoppers....

MidwestPunx1
06-09-2007, 07:39 AM
i think MOST of the aircraft noise is pretty decent..
the exception however is definatly the jet planes..
especially the Me-262...
that one sounds like ****..

stansdds
06-09-2007, 07:57 AM
Comparing the sounds in IL2 to a well made sound pack in FS2004, completely different worlds. The synthesized sounds supposedly do a better job as you change the speed of your engine, but it's just as good in FS2004. Personally, I think the use of synthesized sounds is simply a way to eliminate the time and expense of obtaining real recordings.

PF_Coastie
06-09-2007, 08:30 AM
I am with BC on this. Overall, I think the sounds are really good. In some aspects, not so good. I have Klipsch speakers and a SB Audigy2. When I crank the bass and volume up it sounds incredible and I can feel it.

I had a party once and was showing one friend the game. I cranked up the volume and soon I had everyone at the party running into the room wondering where these awesome sounds were coming from. Some could not believe how real it sounded.

I think it is also a matter of conditioning to those of us who have had the game a while. We always want more and become sensory blocked though repetition.

My 2 cents worth.

BrotherVoodoo
06-09-2007, 08:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I use an X-FI with a simple stereo-headset, but one with a range from 8 to 23,000 Hz. The sound of the engines is awesome with this setup and you can very nicely distinguish between a 109, a FW190 and a Pony. The roaring 50s on a 47 are literally breathtaking </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I also use a Fatal1ty X-fi (upgraded from onboard sound), and a higher end 5.1 system. I would say my sound quality went up by a factor of 75%. Plus I gained some FPS out of it. I'm not saying it couldn't be better still but I am much happier now with the sound than before my upgrade.

DooDaH2007
06-09-2007, 09:24 AM
Few people seem to realize that everyone hears sounds a little differently, even those on comparable setups...

And even on my own setup, I can change sounds as I please...

Listen to following video, displaying some awesome sounds, eventhough the source was 5.1 sound and has been diminished by youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OFIQ-GSI9k

Check out my other video's there as well...
Each and every one has different sounds, eventhough it comes from the same machine...

mbfRoy
06-09-2007, 09:55 AM
I just checked this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K55OumoVzTs) again (I hadn't realized this at first), and noticed that the change from zoomed to normal view is not instant, but rather progressive. What's the button I have to map to get it?

DooDaH2007
06-09-2007, 10:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mbfRoy:
I just checked this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K55OumoVzTs) again (I hadn't realized this at first), and noticed that the change from zoomed to normal view is not instant, but rather progressive. What's the button I have to map to get it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's done with a repeating macro on a small time delay...

-press button for 10% less or more FOV
-delay 0.10 (or less)
'repeat while macro button is pressed'

mbfRoy
06-09-2007, 10:13 AM
ahh, thanks a lot. it looks great

msalama
06-09-2007, 10:26 AM
Well I dunno. As _generic_ engine sounds they're OKish I suppose, but admittedly still a bit lame compared to the real thing. But I'm w/ BC here, too, in that this isn't by any means a showstopper to me either...

Xiolablu3
06-09-2007, 12:41 PM
The sounds in IL2 are not samples, but are computer generated sounds in order to save resources.

We wouldnt be able to enjoy the massive maps adn numbers of planes we enjoy if we had sampled sounds as they take up much more memory

Blood_Splat
06-09-2007, 12:57 PM
The sound is special once you discover it. It's much better than having the same engine loop sound like in other games. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

A 5.1 system made a world of difference for me.

general_kalle
06-09-2007, 03:19 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif somehow i just cant stop smiling when you get back to check you your topic and it has turned out to be 1 1/2 page.

i understand. its way too requiring to make aktual engine sounds.
i just didnt know. hopefully we'll experience it in the future.
now when we are at it.
is it the same deal with Machineguns and Cannons??
or is it simply the way it sounds when you are firing 6 50 cal.s
or 8 303. machine guns

BaldieJr
06-09-2007, 03:32 PM
Sound synthesis fits the ambiance of the synthesized game world. Recorded sounds are simply ridiculous when placed in a game environment. It makes the underlying logic scream "Here I am! Some conditional statement is now true! Listen to me!"

Fake. Unwanted. Total ****.

No offense to those who want real sounds. My discerning ear likes what we have. Of course I play using decent headphones, so maybe thats the difference.

tomtheyak
06-09-2007, 05:32 PM
Posted this a while back - we get these threads every 6 months or so, and I re-post to illustarte the difficulties in finding accurate sound sources for sample based sound generation:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Myself, a while back http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif :

I appreciate that the game doesn't sound as some of you would like, but it is VERY dependant on the quality of your hardware, that includes headphones/speakers etc.

The fact is that physical modelling (the process whereby the sound is synthesised by analysing the harmonic frequency of a or many parts of an instrument or object) will eventually be de riguer in ALL games.

Why?

Because using pre-recorded audio is SEVERELY limited:

PROBLEM 1: First and foremost: very few of the aircraft we have in game have restored examples still flying with which to record from.
You want em to botch job an obscure Dutch fighter with an Cessna? That also happens in MS sims IIRC. NOT GOOD.

PROBLEM 2: Even if you have a restored flying/engine running example, they hardly ever are run anywhere near wartime boosts/manifold pressures. Result? Inaccurate sound.

PROBLEM 3: Even if you have a restored flying/engine running example at full rated power, getting a good quality recording, internally or externally whilst flying is VERY difficult. A good quality mic needs to be properly dampened from the airframe if mounted internally (GOOD LUCK! Piston engines don't vibrate much lol!) and externally a flying aircraft is almost impossible to record thanks to wind noise over the Mic. Virtually impossible to eliminate.

The result would be what happens at present - some enterprising soul gets a recording of a flyby and chops it around and plays with it, trying to get a steady note from the Doppler shifting sound source, which isn't running at full bore anyway! Its usually good enough for government work but you tend to get unusual looping harmonies or strange throbbing noises that don't reflect the prototype.

PROBLEM 4: These audio samples don't react well to in game audio processing. Doppler shifting in particular - in Oleg's engine you get the higher pitch as an a/c approaches and then the sudden change as passes - a lovely touch that many dont notice, because it is RIGHT! (Like the sun - I personally think its one of the great features of the series - it almost does blind you! Its a fantastic feature but no-one brings it up. Its how it should be. But I digress). Add to the fact that you hear bass from much farther away than treble - spot on. This can be programmed in a synth with far less hit on FR than trying to add it as an after thought to audio files.

On top of which .wav files are often large and to properly sample engines at various settings externally, internally, damaged would require a massive sample folder for just one a/c. And we have 200+. Its plain unwieldy.

PROBLEM 5: No microphone ever invented records sounds as humans hear it. Plain fact. A microphone bears no resemblance to the human ear, and as such we hear things mics don't. We are sensitive to sub bass. Most mics aren't. We can hear the results of complex interactions of soundwaves that mics cant.

Physical modelling is efficient, and will eventually be able to far more accurately reproduce the sounds you guys are after than any amount of mic recording. The only thing is it draws on processing power. A separate good quality soundcard will help.

As far as I see complaining about the sound is like having the game and complaining that you have to sit in front of a two-D monitor to play it! No offence but until we get far more processing power to intricately duplicate the harmonies of the workings of a multi cylinder aero-engine then its never gonna be perfect. But it IS gonna evolve and get better and better. You just have to take the long view.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

diomedes33
06-09-2007, 08:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
The sounds in IL2 are not samples, but are computer generated sounds in order to save resources.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

IL-2's sound system's real strength is that it is dynamic. Since it is generated it sounds believable from all angles and all speeds. Dopler effects and engine revs are modeled very well. Sure the overall sound quality isn't the greatest but the dynamic effects are.

The extreme counter-example of Il2 would be BOB:WOVII. The same fly by track is played for every flyby (per aircraft model) or close encounter no matter the closure speed or angle. IMHO, it gets really old and boring after the initial ooh and ahh wares off.

Anyone else remember back to Pre Aces expansion, I could swear I could hear supercharger whines and other engine nuances that aren't present now.

Aaron_GT
06-10-2007, 02:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">PROBLEM 5: No microphone ever invented records sounds as humans hear it. Plain fact. A microphone bears no resemblance to the human ear, and as such we hear things mics don't. We are sensitive to sub bass. Most mics aren't. We can hear the results of complex interactions of soundwaves that mics cant. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


You can get some fairly impressive recordings using binaural techniques using dummy heads, but then the recording will only sound authentic when played back over high quality headphones, i.e. it will sound wrong if you play back over stereo speakers. Alternatively you can record using different techniques so that is sounds ok over stereo speakers, but not over headphones. And it will still be wrong on a 5.1 or 7.1 system. To record sound that will play back on almost any system the methods with the most accurate reproduction rely on recording the sound in an anechoic chamber and then a lot of computer processing (it might end up in your DVD player in a few years in the form of some chips). Basically you have to synthesise the sound to a large degree. This is what things like EAX try to do on a basic level that sound cards can handle, but the source material has to be right too.

But even then what you miss is the FEELING of the sound, as TomTheYak mentions. Probably the best thing you can do here is sit on your subwoofer and crank it up. Let's face it, WW2 fighters are probably very loud inside as you have between 800 and 3000 hp of engine a few feet in front of your head. And you are going to feel the vibrations. I'd bet that the sound would subjectively seem better for a lot of people if they sat on their subs or created a 'rumble seat' of some sort.

AussieMossie
06-10-2007, 05:24 AM
Although the engine sounds aren't perfect I don't think they are that bad. I upgraded my sound card a while back and the engines all sound so much better. Having a good set of speakers or headphones helps too. I remember reading an interview with Oleg (could have been MPs videoed interview actually) where Oleg noted the sound in IL2 needed beefy HW and SOW was going to give better sound output on low end "on board" sound chips. Personally I do think the in cockpit sounds of the radials is pretty sweet if not completely accurate.

MrMojok
06-10-2007, 07:57 AM
Wow Tom-- nice post. Thank for that. it clears up a lot of things for me.

Xiolablu3
06-10-2007, 01:25 PM
I think maybe an engine looping sample could work tho. PLus also gun sounds.

These could be used without sounding 'fake', I believe. The engine looping sample is used in racing games and sounds fine.

Depends how much more memory it would take however. I would not want to give th the massive maps we have in IL2 in order to have sampled engine sounds and gun sounds.

I dont mean a 'genenric' sound playing when a plane gets close, I just mean the engine sound and gunfire being a sample rather than a computer generated noise.

SAmpled engine sounds can sound good, they use them in racing games all the time :-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UmwNbulQ2c

If it doesnt use too much memory, then maybe in a flight sim too?

DooDaH2007
06-10-2007, 01:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
I think maybe an engine looping sample could work tho. PLus also gun sounds.

These could be used without sounding 'fake', I believe. The engine looping sample is used in racing games and sounds fine.

Depends how much more memory it would take however. I would not want to give th the massive maps we have in IL2 in order to have sampled engine sounds and gun sounds.

I dont mean a 'genenric' sound playing when a plane gets close, I just mean the engine sound and gunfire being a sample rather than a computer generated noise.

SAmpled engine sounds can sound good, they use them in racing games all the time :-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UmwNbulQ2c

If it doesnt use too much memory, then maybe in a flight sim too? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is offcourse, much easier to get the sound of those cars, then it is to get the sounds from 300 WW2 planes...

I hope Oleg keeps the synthesized sounds for BOB, but better...

buddye1
06-10-2007, 03:14 PM
Hi guys, I just thought I would pass on my experienece with sound.

We just made two trips to collect sound and cockpit video for the P40 for the new Flying Tigers game. The P40 pilot told us it cost 35K for each P40 flight so the expense is significant per plane if done correctly.

Here is a SIMHQ report on the second trip to gather sound and video. The first trip had technical problems with the video.

http://www.simhq.com/_air10/air_305a.html

So it takes a very strong committment to gather real sounds and it is very expensive.

Xiolablu3
06-10-2007, 03:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DooDaH2007:
It is offcourse, much easier to get the sound of those cars, then it is to get the sounds from 300 WW2 planes...

I hope Oleg keeps the synthesized sounds for BOB, but better... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes thats a very good point mate.

Its no good having some sampled sounds and not others, that would just sound terrible.

I never thought of this problem.