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geow-jim
04-20-2007, 08:21 PM
Hey,

I'm still relatively Noobish, so please forgive this post.

I'm doing something wrong. In pretty much everything I fly, I go too slow. My wingmen/squadron mates can fly past me to chase enemy planes, but I'm usually lagging behind.

Now before you think I'm completely crazy, I don't go flying around with my gear down and the flaps out. I'm guessing it's something sneaky...tricky.

I thought about prop pitch, mixture, cowl flaps, superchargers, WEP, etc. No matter what I think to check, I'm still a bit slower than my home boys.

Case in point, I'm now doing a great BOB campaign designed by one of our amazing IL2 brothers out there. My Hurricane will just not fly as fast as the others. I go 100% prop pitch, full power (no WEP seems to be available for the Hurricanes), cowl flaps adjusted as needed for temp control, mixture set properly... mostly at 100% because I'm always down low, etc.

We all have the same fuel load.... So what gives?

Will someone wave their magic wand and help?

G-J

geow-jim
04-20-2007, 08:21 PM
Hey,

I'm still relatively Noobish, so please forgive this post.

I'm doing something wrong. In pretty much everything I fly, I go too slow. My wingmen/squadron mates can fly past me to chase enemy planes, but I'm usually lagging behind.

Now before you think I'm completely crazy, I don't go flying around with my gear down and the flaps out. I'm guessing it's something sneaky...tricky.

I thought about prop pitch, mixture, cowl flaps, superchargers, WEP, etc. No matter what I think to check, I'm still a bit slower than my home boys.

Case in point, I'm now doing a great BOB campaign designed by one of our amazing IL2 brothers out there. My Hurricane will just not fly as fast as the others. I go 100% prop pitch, full power (no WEP seems to be available for the Hurricanes), cowl flaps adjusted as needed for temp control, mixture set properly... mostly at 100% because I'm always down low, etc.

We all have the same fuel load.... So what gives?

Will someone wave their magic wand and help?

G-J

FE_pilot
04-20-2007, 08:25 PM
The AI always goes faster that you do. You can't catch them.

Deadmeat313
04-20-2007, 08:26 PM
Your home boys cheat.

The AI has a built in speed boost - a result of the fact that it never has less than 100% efficient trim/engine-management etc. In real life you're always going to be a bit inefficient, so you can't keep up.

The best answer - when transiting to the combat area - is to join 'em. Switch on autopilot and your plane cheats too. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


T.

VW-IceFire
04-20-2007, 09:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FE_pilot:
The AI always goes faster that you do. You can't catch them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
They don't cheat that much. A tiny bit.

Someone send me a mission with a good example of the AI always flying faster than them...I'd love to see this.

Divine-Wind
04-20-2007, 10:15 PM
Funny, I found that I could keep up quite easily with my flight leader in the P-38, with a small bit of trim and the rads set to auto. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif Huh.

Most of the time however, I'm behind them about twice as much as I should be, with everything shut as tight as possible and the trim being constantly refined. Generally, though, I let the autopilot fly, since I'm not much good at formation flying at 8x game speed. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

In one of the patches for PF, if I remember correctly, the AI was tweaked so it would fly with everything set perfectly - Mixture, prop pitch, trim, cowl flaps and other assorted drag-creating objects, all of that set just right. And since the AI doesn't go through black- and redouts, it can pull impressive manuevers, all the while trimmed to fly perfectly.

Or so I've heard... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

In short, you'll have a much better chance at keeping up with human pilots than the AI, unless you're really serious about trimming and adjusting your plane's settings.

DmdSeeker
04-20-2007, 10:36 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by VW-IceFire:

Someone send me a mission with a good example of the AI always flying faster than them...I'd love to see

The Big show campaign, mission 13 (I think)

Hi alt escort in Spit V CW with an air start.

They'll be half to a full sector ahead by the RV point.

lowfighter
04-20-2007, 10:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DmdSeeker:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by VW-IceFire:

Someone send me a mission with a good example of the AI always flying faster than them...I'd love to see

The Big show campaign, mission 13 (I think)

Hi alt escort in Spit V CW with an air start.

They'll be half to a full sector ahead by the RV point. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That doesn't mean that AI fly faster but it means that AI might ACCELERATE better than the player. Human player acceleration depends fro example on how smooth he flyes. AI is always flying perfectly smoothly when accelerating horisontaly. To keep close to the AI I have to be very careful, every little altitude oscillation while I try to keep level will reduce my effective acceleration (with an il2 beginner I think it is the main source of slowlyness). There's also the rad settings, but I'm not sure how the AI employs them. With FW190 prop pitch is very important (at least with the Antons, don't know about Dora)

Browning50cal
04-21-2007, 01:40 AM
Hi all,

I have posted on this subject before. The AI do have a couple of advantages not shared by the player:

1. The "all seeing eye". AI can see through clouds, directly behind and even through the aircraft. But that's o.k. 'cause they're not actually human.

2. AI's don't overheat. They are able to zoom around at %110/WEP with the radiators closed for an indefinite amount of time. You can see this by starting a mission and immediately pressing autopilot. Throughout the entire mission, you will not see so much as 1 degree of temp increase on the guages. This is where their performance advantage comes from. Airstart a mission and close your radiators, go to %110 and you will match their performance exactly. Until you overheat.

3. AI are not subject to turbulence in any way. You can demonstrate this by starting a mission with "Thunderstrom" as the weather. Press autopilot and the turbulence stops.

I'm sure that these things are clear enough to the developers that these things will be addressed for Storm of War. I'm not trying to knock the sim. I like it. But a spade is a spade. (Pik ist ein Pik for 109'ers) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif AI have significant advantages in performance that result in AI aircraft being able to perform maneuvers that Player aircraft cannot. That being said, just learn to fly better. Practice, and your kills will come.

B50

AlGroover
04-21-2007, 02:43 AM
If you have prop pitch set to 100% its akin to running your car in 1st gear. You will run out of available rpm. Also don't carry more fuel than you need. Aircraft with big tanks like P51 and Yak9D are significantly affected.

F19_Ob
04-21-2007, 04:20 AM
An additional note:

The fact that the flight pulls away may also happen with living players online.
Many small things may affect ones speed and accelleration. Weight was mentioned but also ones speed in relation to the rest of the flight, angle of attack and small differences in altitude are important factors.

Example situation:
your mates are going full power and you lag somewhat behind because you took off last or joined the formation last and u can't catch up.

Even if your pals accellerated to full speed just 5-10 seconds before you it would be impossible for you to catch up if they didn't slow down and waited for you.
You simply can't go faster than another plane at same speed-category at full power.

Small things like accidental veering a bit too the side in formation may leave you lagging behind when you have maneuvered to correct your course although you all have same speed.
The same may happen if you trim badly or use rudder elevator and ailerons more than the rest of your pals who fly cleaner.
Perhaps you accidentally took a different, heavier loadout or fuel load than your buddies?

Perhaps you were lower than the rest of the flight? and have to first climb to the same level and then accellerate to full speed? You would surely lag behind in this situation, even if your speed was equal to your flights.

Just a little is enough to make someone in the formation lag behind.
It's the leaders responsibility to keep a speed that doesn't scatter the formation and the wingmens to keep their place.

major_setback
04-21-2007, 05:14 AM
I can't remember if there is an unlimited fuel setting, but I think there is. Turn it off, and make sure you don't have more fuel than you need. It's heavy.

p-11.cAce
04-21-2007, 06:16 AM
The AI does have a simple flight model and it can see through clouds, etc. - but this is NOT an AI issue! This is a piloting issue that ALWAYS gets blamed on the AI being UBER when it is really pilot error.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> If you have prop pitch set to 100% its akin to running your car in 1st gear. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is exactly correct - top speed in some planes is reached at 60%, in some others its as low as 40%. 100% prop with a screaming engine sounds powerful, and it is in the same way that climbing a hill in 1st gear in your car is - but its not the fastest. Cruising down the highway in 5th, you are hauling along but the engine is quieter.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Even if your pals accellerated to full speed just 5-10 seconds before you it would be impossible for you to catch up if they didn't slow down and waited for you.
You simply can't go faster than another plane at same speed-category at full power. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
This should be stickied at the top of the forum - and is exactly correct. Another common mistake is to with your nose pointed at something instead of flying an interrcept course. If your flight leader takes off and you take off behind him you will NEVER catch him if you fly straight at him.

I'm no ace, but I do not get dropped by the AI and have not since I put in the effor t to truly learn how to fly properly and stopped going by what "felt" right. In fact, there are many times where I'm having to throttle way back to keep from plowing into my AI flight.

The issues with the AI, as I said, are well known - but they have little to do with this problem. There are many new pilots now since 46 came out - and it is a wonderful thing! But the AI are being used as a scapegoat far too often when the problems are on the player side of the computer. As has been pointed out all the problems attributed to the AI happen online - only instead of crying uber AI everyone screams "hack" or "cheat". http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Chris0382
04-21-2007, 07:13 AM
One thing about the AI I have seen seen mentioned is they know were you are aiming as they move or stop moving into the path were you are aiming sometimes and suddenly go level.

VW-IceFire
04-21-2007, 08:57 AM
Had a try with a Spitfire V and a Seafire III to replicate what is being talked about here. The fault lies with DGEN or the mission designer in some cases where the waypoints are set to things like 400kph and the Spitfire cruises better at 350 or 330kph. You and the AI can do the same things but the AI is more efficient than you...many pilots don't trim their planes so already they are not going to be as efficient...even if you are a chronic trimmer like myself I'm never going to be completely perfect. So the ball is in the AI's court when asked to fly at the maximum of the plane in question. The AI can't really do anything more than you can...so they aren't cheating...they are just always going to be slightly better.

The mission designer and/or DGEN also make the mistake of somehow assuming that a plane should somehow be firewalling the throttle just to cruise to target area. Many mission designers get it right and then its largely the pilots fault for not keeping up. Depends on the situation. I don't have, nor have played the campaign in question so I don't know where the issue would be.

With a Hurricane Mark I there is no WEP capability and you shouldn't have to fly at 110% with rads closed to keep up with your flight. Make sure that your plane is on an even keel, properly trimmed with elevator and rudder, and give it some time to accelerate before you start climbing. If you point your nose at your wingmates you'll automatically go slower because you're climbing steeper. Aim under them to match their angle of climb.

SithSpeeder
04-21-2007, 09:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by geow-jim:
My wingmen/squadron mates can fly past me to chase enemy planes, but I'm usually lagging behind.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE> G-J--
Is this when you fly offline (i.e., with Artificial Intelligence wingmen/squadmates)? As posted nearly ad-nauseum above, AI just does it better. BUT, if you are a flight or even squadron leader, they will fall in line behind you.

I use a voice recognition program and a headset with a mic to give them commands, as well.

* _54th_Speeder *

horseback
04-21-2007, 12:24 PM
As pointed out above, the AI always fly 'perfectly.' They compensate for (or aren't subject to) turbulence, changes in attitude, throttle, prop pitch, and so on instantly. The player can't hope to match this level of skill.

You can, however come close. Others have mentioned prop pitch & general engine management, and those are important, but trim is at least as important as ALL of those things. Most flyable aircraft in this sim have at least elevator trim, and many have rudder and aileron trim.

Trimming the aircraft is important, because it allows you to keep your aircraft from 'crabbing' to one side or another or flying at too high or low an angle of attack. Properly applied, it allows you to fly straight and level without too much stick stirring or rudder input.

Any time you're 'fighting' your stick to fly straight and level is a time when you are out of trim, and probably not flying as efficiently as you could.

I recommend assigning at least elevator trim to single keyboard or joystick buttons or an extra axis, and in most cases, rudder trim as well. In my own case, since I have an extra POV hat on my stick, I use it for elevator nose up and nose down trim, and left and right rudder trim at the North-South, and East-West points respectively. I understand that many modern aircraft use a similar setup.

How do you know when you're trimmed? Most aircraft have a Turn and Bank (or slip) indicator of some sort, usually in the form of a needle and ball gauge. The needle shows when you're banking, the ball indicates when you're sideslipping horizontally, or crabbing with too much of you fuselage creating drag (and slowing you down). By adding rudder trim to one side or the other, you control most of the horizontal element of airframe drag (this doesn't apply to German fighters-they require a constant rudder input whenever you're not at 'cruise speed').

I should point out here that some aircraft have slow, or even dishonest turn and bank indicators. The game developers believe that they should be 'authentic' as possible, so some aircraft that they believe had slow or inaccurate gauges will lie to you at times, especially when you're making sudden or hard maneuvers.

If you're not fighting your stick, and the 'ball' is way over to one side, the gauge is the one not telling you the truth.

Changes in speed, throttle, and attitude (climbing or diving) usually require a change in either rudder input or trim (and guess which one is easier and most consistant).

KEEPING THE BALL CENTERED WILL KEEP YOU FLYING AS STRAIGHT AND CLEANLY AS POSSIBLE. Of course, you will still need to keep your landing gear, flaps and radiator from sticking out, but trim's the major consideration.

To fly level, you need to adjust your elevator trim. Some aircraft have a 'climb' indicator, but in most cases, they are a bit slow. Watching your altitude indicator is usually more efficient.

Most aircraft want to climb as airspeed increases, so you will need to add nose-down trim until you reach the speed/altitude combination you want. Obviously when you are climbing or slowing down and want to maintain altitude, you will want to add nose-up trim.

Aileron trim is the least common, and least important. It would be used to counter a tendency to roll to one side or another at certain speeds or throttle settings. Most of the time in this sim, I find it of limited use, but it's handy if you have holes in one of your wings and you'd like to get back to base.

Some aircraft are trim hogs; they MUST be constantly trimmed or you're just a stall waiting to happen. Of course, that also means that if you're incorrectly trimmed, you're even more likely to stall out. Some are more forgiving, and you can largely ignore adding trim while you maneuver and save it for long periods of straight and level flight.

In this game, trim has a built in delay due to some persons using trim on an axis to obtain otherwise impossible to obtain turn or climb performance for online combats. To keep things 'fair', the game developers came up with the delay for all players, off-and on-line. What this means to you and me is that we have to press the button or move the axis assigned to trim, wait to see if it is sufficient, and then adjust.

It can be a bit unintuitive, and takes a while to develop a 'feel' for each new plane. So, practice a while every time you want to master a new plane's FM. It gets easier with experience, I promise.

cheers

horseback

p-11.cAce
04-21-2007, 12:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">KEEPING THE BALL CENTERED WILL KEEP YOU FLYING AS STRAIGHT AND CLEANLY AS POSSIBLE. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is also the key to shooting well http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

VW-IceFire
04-21-2007, 12:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p-11.cAce:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">KEEPING THE BALL CENTERED WILL KEEP YOU FLYING AS STRAIGHT AND CLEANLY AS POSSIBLE. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is also the key to shooting well http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Now we're giving away all the secrets http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I count on peoples lack of trimming and piloting to stay alive when they start shooting at me because I'm so blind as to let just about anyone in behind my plane http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Ed6269
04-21-2007, 01:13 PM
What would be educational is if the HUD showed what AI was doing to the airplane: supercharger stage; radiator; prop pitch, ect. Is there a utility that does this?

Huxley_S
04-21-2007, 01:24 PM
The AI tends to accelerate faster, and seem unbothered by overheating, but they tend to cruise at a lower speed than the top speed of the aircraft. Therefore you can almost always catch up to them once they have stopped climbing.

The key is to trim your aircraft (so that when you let go of the stick you continue to fly straight and level), use prop pitch, supercharger, fuel mix and radiator settings (if available) to optimise your flight performance.

SirPapps
04-21-2007, 01:25 PM
No, i really don't think so. that'd just be way too easy. but there are a whole bunch of guides floating around that will tell you advantages/disadvantages of a/c and which is the best supercharger stage for a given altitude. One of them is 'Neural_Dream's Reference Guide'. You can get that at www.mission4today.com (http://www.mission4today.com)