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CarpeNoctem43
06-12-2007, 10:51 AM
Salute All!

I have been researching the Vector Roll Attack with mild success. There are a lot of posts, however I find myself unable to visualize the execution. From its definitions, the VRA is used to maintain a low AOT and High E state (and by my description / understanding this is where it falls apart. )

From what I can tell is to execute this you must have a low AOT from the bandit, close to gun range, and a relatively high amount of speed; maybe slightly more than the bandit.

Starting positions: You are 6 oclock from your intended victim at a relatively close distance and closing.

1. Bandit begins a hard, 2 dimensional, break to the left. (bandit will continue hard turn for the duration of this example)
2. You begin a moderate climb (how much? 20 degrees? 30 degrees? same as High Yo-Yo? )
3. At the appropriate time you begin a roll to the RIGHT (opposite to bandit's turn)(what are the keys to starting and finishing the roll) with a lot of rudder as if you were performing a barrel roll.
4. Instead of completing the barrel roll on your original heading, when your plane is inverted loosen rudder and aileron control and increase back pressure on the stick to perform a split S type maneuver.
5. During the split s, you should be gaining back the E lost during the barrel roll and be approaching the bandit for a High AOT / High angle deflection shot.

I don't think this is an accurate description of this simple yet effective maneuver. Could someone please explain with a step by step (time by time) break down of both the pursuer and evader? A track would be nice - and if there isn't anything available I could set something up with someone who knows how to perform this so we can create a couple few tracks.

Best regards,

CN

CarpeNoctem43
06-12-2007, 10:51 AM
Salute All!

I have been researching the Vector Roll Attack with mild success. There are a lot of posts, however I find myself unable to visualize the execution. From its definitions, the VRA is used to maintain a low AOT and High E state (and by my description / understanding this is where it falls apart. )

From what I can tell is to execute this you must have a low AOT from the bandit, close to gun range, and a relatively high amount of speed; maybe slightly more than the bandit.

Starting positions: You are 6 oclock from your intended victim at a relatively close distance and closing.

1. Bandit begins a hard, 2 dimensional, break to the left. (bandit will continue hard turn for the duration of this example)
2. You begin a moderate climb (how much? 20 degrees? 30 degrees? same as High Yo-Yo? )
3. At the appropriate time you begin a roll to the RIGHT (opposite to bandit's turn)(what are the keys to starting and finishing the roll) with a lot of rudder as if you were performing a barrel roll.
4. Instead of completing the barrel roll on your original heading, when your plane is inverted loosen rudder and aileron control and increase back pressure on the stick to perform a split S type maneuver.
5. During the split s, you should be gaining back the E lost during the barrel roll and be approaching the bandit for a High AOT / High angle deflection shot.

I don't think this is an accurate description of this simple yet effective maneuver. Could someone please explain with a step by step (time by time) break down of both the pursuer and evader? A track would be nice - and if there isn't anything available I could set something up with someone who knows how to perform this so we can create a couple few tracks.

Best regards,

CN

Cajun76
06-12-2007, 11:31 AM
I think this is what your looking for. Very dependent on relative energy states, and how well the defender can gain energy in a turn or climb.

http://www.combataircraft.com/intel/tactics/high_speed_yoyo.asp


The barrel roll attack may also be what your after, as it uses less AoA and more roll to rapidly change vector. Focke Wulfs, P-51's and P-47's are some that excel at this.

http://www.combataircraft.com/intel/tactics/barrelroll_attack.asp

Here some other topics that you might be interested in.

http://airwarfare.com/simnetwork/index.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=11

JG14_Josf
06-12-2007, 11:56 AM
Cajun76,

The Yo-Yo rolls opposite the Barrel Roll Attack (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/228102584?r=578100884#578100884). Both are offensive maneuvers used to avoid an overshoot when attacking a slower plane.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I don't think this is an accurate description of this simple yet effective maneuver. Could someone please explain with a step by step (time by time) break down of both the pursuer and evader? A track would be nice - and if there isn't anything available I could set something up with someone who knows how to perform this so we can create a couple few tracks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That sounds reasonable. We (the group I fly with regularly and I) are up at 8 pm eastern from hyperlobby on most days. I think this type of thing would be great for training. The Barrel Roll attack is one of those 'bet the farm' type maneuvers but is well worth learning.

JG14_Josf
06-12-2007, 12:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">1. Bandit begins a hard, 2 dimensional, break to the left. (bandit will continue hard turn for the duration of this example)
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> 2. You begin a moderate climb (how much? 20 degrees? 30 degrees? same as High Yo-Yo? )
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is important to know something before your first and second step. The Barrel (or Vector) Roll Attack begins inside the target's turn. The Yo Yo tends to begin outside the targets turn. This can be viewed from the perspective of ˜which way do I roll?' viewpoint.

If you are outside the targets turn looking left while the target turns left, then, you pitch up (to slow down) and roll left (keeping the target in view) and this is the high Yo-Yo.

If you are inside the left turning target (looking right), then, you pitch up and roll right to keep the target in view. This is a Barrel Roll Attack (according to how I understand Boyd describing a Barrel Roll Attack (http://www.d-n-i.net/boyd/pdf/boydaerialattack.pdf)).

Target turning left, you look right, target turns left, you go up and over the target while looking right, and your opposite roll (right) allow you to keep sight on the target. Boyd explains the geometry.

Anyway; the Barrel Roll Attack is set up inside the targets turn – not outside.

The correct angle of climb is dictated by your plane's turn radius. What you are trying to do is maintain the exact same range between you and your target that is equal to your turn radius (diameter). This is very similar to a lead turn. You cannot expect to accomplish this if you are too close. You cannot expect to accomplish this if you are too far away. Pitching up and rolling around the target is done to maintain the correct lateral separation (range) during the maneuvers. If you have any experience in the game with rolling scissor fights, then, this may help. Visualize what happens in a rolling scissor fight as you and the target appear to be motionless as the world spins around – that is – maintaining the correct lateral separation. In the Barrel Roll Attack the target isn't rolling but you still have to maintain the correct lateral separation as you move the target from your right view (if the target is turning left) into your forward view. You cannot do this if your target becomes too close or too far away during the maneuver. So...pitching up too high moves the target too far away at the initial stage, and, not pitching up enough moves the target too close at this early stage.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">1. Bandit begins a hard, 2 dimensional, break to the left. (bandit will continue hard turn for the duration of this example)
2. You begin a moderate climb (how much? 20 degrees? 30 degrees? same as High Yo-Yo? ) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Answer: Just enough to set-up one turn radius as the range between your target and your plane so as to maintain the correct Diameter of your Barrel.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">3. At the appropriate time you begin a roll to the RIGHT (opposite to bandit's turn)(what are the keys to starting and finishing the roll) with a lot of rudder as if you were performing a barrel roll.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Boyd describes something he calls ˜bottom rudder' and this can be very confusing. My take on this is to point out that it may help to push the tail farther outside the turn during the maneuver and thereby help decrease turn radius and increase turn rate during the maneuver.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
4. Instead of completing the barrel roll on your original heading, when your plane is inverted loosen rudder and aileron control and increase back pressure on the stick to perform a split S type maneuver.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think that this is true. Not until the target is nearly in the gun sight will it be appropriate to change the velocity vector (scribing a flight path that goes around the barrel diameter). Of course this is the ideal and during the maneuver you will be trying to move the target from its position in your right side forward (if the target is turning left) to a position in your gunsight (snap shot and/or tracking shot), so, making any corrections during the maneuver that will move the target into a guns solution is appropriate.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
5. During the split s, you should be gaining back the E lost during the barrel roll and be approaching the bandit for a High AOT / High angle deflection shot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think this is true. I think that the idea is very similar to a lead turn. What should be the result, ideally, is your plane right behind the target plane with your plane going nearly the same speed. If you read Boyd's description; however – the Barrel Roll Attack sacrifices less speed to accomplish the position change when compared to a High Speed Yo-Yo attack therefore the maneuver may end up with your plane overtaking the target plane during your shot opportunity. This is what happened to me when I managed to use this attack once on-line. I overshot the target but managed to deliver a killing snap shot before doing so. I think the target may have cut his throttle in the effort to increase his decelerating turn rate and spoil my shot; in other words – he tried to force an overshoot.

I have the track file but it was recorded in an earlier version of the game.

The guys I fly with may very well agree to help record track files that may end up with a few good examples of the Barrel Roll Attack.

It is a lot of fun shooting each other down during practice sessions so we would have to stress some discipline during this type of event – if you know what I mean.

What I do not want to do is sacrifice my team play time so I won't abandon my buddies during my play time.

Roblex
06-12-2007, 12:47 PM
I think you are 'overthinking' it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

You just pull up while rolling right and allow it to come inverted at which point you pull through gently as if completing the second half of a loop. The key to knowing how hard to pull is to remember that you are attempting to turn your excess E into altitude without bleeding it off by pulling heavy Gs. You then turn that altitude back into E while coming down on the enemies tail.

It is not a Yo-yo or a barrel roll.

If you want to visualise the shape then just think of those little ribbons people wear to show support for breast cancer or Aids charities ie a simple ribbon that has been looped back to cross itself (without flattening it!)

Widowmaker214
06-12-2007, 12:56 PM
Yeah you may be over thinking it...
Remember.. a Vector Roll is just any rolling maneuver where your exit vector is different from your entrance vector.
In the case you start to describe... you don't mention the overtake speed. If you are not closing that fast.. there is no need for a vector roll. I assume you meant a high rate of closure for this example.

A barrel roll can help you manage E and stay on the 6 of a bandit not in a turn....

The vector roll on attack, in what you describe, is best used if you are at a HIGH rate of closure and wish to maintain E and prevent popping out in front of him.
As the bandit breaks... you break up and opposite... then as you roll over you change your vector to come back down in the chase path of the Bandit. Preventing an overshoot, retaining your E, and returning to the bandits 6. Yes you can set yourself up for a high AOA shot, but you can also set your self into a tracking position as well. A lot of variables here with your targets turn radius, your turn radius, his speed, your speed.
But you should be able to manage one or both of the outcomes.

Scen
06-12-2007, 01:07 PM
What you started to describe is another form of a Lag Displacement Roll. If you roll opposite the bandit's turn you're putting your self in lag but the only issue is you're now taking your eyes off the bandit until you roll through the rest of the maneuver.

I tend to not use that maneuver for that very reason. A simple Hi Yo Yo works great. Again by pulling Hi (you're gaining separation)you increase your potential E. This allow you to come back down through the turn and keep from overshooting. A very common maneuver for planes that have significant closure rate or a need to maintain E state . In fact you will do it naturally over time.

JG14_Josf
06-12-2007, 01:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">the only issue is you're now taking your eyes off the bandit </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Scen,

I could be wrong, of course, but the Barrel Roll Attack does not involve loss of sight.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">3. At the appropriate time you begin a roll to the RIGHT (opposite to bandit's turn)(what are the keys to starting and finishing the roll) with a lot of rudder as if you were performing a barrel roll. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you are inside the bandit's turn and you roll over the top of the bandits turn, then, you maintain sight of the bandit during the whole maneuver.

Boyd:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">To set up the maneuver, the attacker must dive below and inside his opponent's defensive turn.
&lt;snip&gt;
If his opponent's defensive turn is toward the left, he rolls right; if the turn is toward the right, he rolls left.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Henkie327
06-12-2007, 01:36 PM
No you are correct.

This move allows you to go from lead to lag pursuit while keeping sight during the entire move.

If you are on the inside of the bandits turn and roll to the inside of the turn, then you turn your belly to the bandit instead of the canopy. To keep sight you must roll your canopy so that you can keep sight. And that is to the outside of the bandits turn.

CarpeNoctem43
06-12-2007, 01:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">JG14_Josf </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Josf!

I think I may have got it (visually). The key here is as you say the bandit will CROSS your flight path at the start of his break turn and that you have a significant relative E lead.

So,

Time 0: You are on the bandit's six but offset to the left. Maybe this offset is similar to that in which a scissors is performed. You have a significant relative E difference in your favor. (are we talking 100's of kph? or 10's?)

Time 1: Bandit begins a break turn to the left which will cross your path, maybe out of gun solution. You also begin a hard climb and roll to the RIGHT to keep bandit in sight and set up a separation equal to your turn radius.

Time 2: Continue rolling to KEEP BANDIT IN SIGHT while maintaining turn radius separation by applying back elevator pressure as you set up BEHIND the bandit.

Time 3: As your position becomes more favorably behind the bandit start maneuvers to set up your attack run.

As Roblex stated, this would appear to be similar to a support ribbon that hasn't been flattened out.

This sounds like it may be an opposite to a High Yo-Yo. Opposite in the sense that, as you stated, you are INSIDE the bandit's turn instead of the HYY outside of turn.

That was the best description I've seen yet! I hope that I am understanding it correctly.

Josf, Widowmaker, Scen and Roblex: If any of you'd like to practice this let me know. I can set up a dedicated server to allow us a place to script it out and perfect it.

Thanks everyone! Salute!

-CN

PF_Coastie
06-12-2007, 02:13 PM
You can see it and many other tactics by using this cool little utility:

ACM Utility (http://www.war-clouds.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=download&id=324)

Scen
06-12-2007, 02:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG14_Josf:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">the only issue is you're now taking your eyes off the bandit </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Scen,

I could be wrong, of course, but the Barrel Roll Attack does not involve loss of sight.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">3. At the appropriate time you begin a roll to the RIGHT (opposite to bandit's turn)(what are the keys to starting and finishing the roll) with a lot of rudder as if you were performing a barrel roll. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you are inside the bandit's turn and you roll over the top of the bandits turn, then, you maintain sight of the bandit during the whole maneuver.

Boyd:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">To set up the maneuver, the attacker must dive below and inside his opponent's defensive turn.
&lt;snip&gt;
If his opponent's defensive turn is toward the left, he rolls right; if the turn is toward the right, he rolls left.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yeah that's correct if you start inside the turn you can maintain visual however he called it out from a six oclock so I didn't assume this. I see you're reading Boyds attack manual (love it)

I say if your from a six position you have a few options lead shoot and come hi for a yo yo or unload and go for a lo yo yo. Simple effective.
I tend to stay outside of the turn circle because I typically use FWs they rarely can stay inside on say a Spit or an LA. Lag Displacments will probable put you in better firing position in a shorter amount of time but that window can be small

Fancy flying never killed a bandit. Just getting into weapons envelope and shooting the bastage. lol

WWSensei
06-12-2007, 04:03 PM
Vector Roll attack is very effective when used correctly and can be utilized to maintain a firing solution/prevent overshoot when your difference in speed is even higher than could be compensated by a high yo-yo.

For some it seems counter-intuitive because on the climb out you end up rolling AWAY from the direction the enemy banked in.

F4 drivers used it effectively in Vietnam against more nimble fighters. I had a track (I'll have to look for it) where I did a fairly decent one in a Hellcat against a Rufe where he was in a hard right bank turn and I was diving in on him and almost overshot.

Ideally, it gives an initial firing solution and one additional one at the end of the pull through, and hopefully you have either killed the bandit, or rendered him so injured you can re-stock and engage again. It also results in you retaining a goodly portion of your E.

Technically, it doesn't HAVE to be initiated from inside the turn circle of your opponent. the real distinguishing factor is the roll opposite of your opponent's break.

WWSensei
06-12-2007, 04:31 PM
OK, here is the track of a vector roll. It isn't perfect by any means (way too loose--it should have been tighter but I'm not the best Hellcat driver).

The scenario: I got a minor tag on a rufe on the initial bounce. I hit Rufe #1 pretty hard already and he was headed down. Rufe #2 caught enough to get a fuel leak. He's the one I'm after. Track starts and he is diving and breaking right.

I pure/lead pursue to get a burst off and see that my smash and his turn radius aren't a good match. I risk a high speed stall if I pull too hard to keep tracking so I come up and roll left. I made a bit of an error here as I lost sight of the enemy but I had an idea where he should be so I reacquired and I still have all my speed and alt advantage.

I get a good clean second pass that resulted in zilch because I'm a bad marksman, but he does break out of the hard turn and I then close in for the kill.

It's not the best but it will show the general usefullness of the maneuver.

http://www.wingwalkers.org/vault/sensei/quick0112.ntrk

Henkie327
06-12-2007, 05:17 PM
thx for the track.

I saw it, but to me it was not a good example. In the track I see no advantage using this one over the simpler hi yoyo. What is the point of rolling to the outside of the turn when he is already to your right? I don't understand it.

I mean it makes sense to me when you pull up and roll to the left when he is actually to your left. But in the example that was not the case.

In the track while you pull up, you roll your belly to the bandit allowing him to make some distance. Plus with your belly to the bandit, there is no way that you can see him. Also I didn't see a big speed difference. If you were faster, then I estimate that it wasn't by much.

JG14_Josf
06-12-2007, 05:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">In the track I see no advantage using this one over the simpler hi yoyo. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

To whom it may concern,

That is just it. The advantage is in geometry. It isn't ballet. If you stretched both flight paths out from time A to time B in a straight line and then circled them back up into some form of turn, then, the one who is behind the other one is the one who shoots. That is not easy when you are flying the one with the longer line; so - rap the long line around the short line somehow.

Most of the time flying in a team this type of maneuver is worse than useless because you are betting the farm (the whole team) on your gamble.

When I finally found a track file to save; it was a left turning LA-5 in front of my 109G-6 (if I remember right) in Forgotten Skies and I set up a High Yo Yo. The LA-5 reversed his turn and forced me to continue my roll which, at that time, was with his turn but then my turn turned out to be opposite his turn – because he reversed his turn. After I looked at the track file I realized that this was an example (albeit a poor one) of a barrel roll attack or VRA.

A third term, if I am not mistaken, besides the Barrel Roll Attack and the Vector Roll Attack is what Shaw calls Lag Displacement Roll. I think they are all the same thing.

Boyd doesn't speak about how the pilot maintains visual contact but I think Shaw does.

I still have my copy of Fighter Combat on loan.

WWSensei
06-12-2007, 08:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Henkie327:
thx for the track.

I saw it, but to me it was not a good example. In the track I see no advantage using this one over the simpler hi yoyo. What is the point of rolling to the outside of the turn when he is already to your right? I don't understand it.

I mean it makes sense to me when you pull up and roll to the left when he is actually to your left. But in the example that was not the case.

In the track while you pull up, you roll your belly to the bandit allowing him to make some distance. Plus with your belly to the bandit, there is no way that you can see him. Also I didn't see a big speed difference. If you were faster, then I estimate that it wasn't by much. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Granted it isn't the best example, but it's advantage is that you can maintain or increase your energy advantage over the opponent and expend less energy than you would in a hi yo-yo.

The best I can try to explain is that it's a "smoother" maneuver than a hi yo-yo.

Henkie327
06-13-2007, 02:47 AM
Ok thx, but now it is very confusing to me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

You spend more energy in a hi yoyo than in this maneuver? I don't understand that.http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif

In the track I see the attacker going to WEP to catch up with the bandit again because after completing the move the bandit was already far away.

But what I mostly don't understand is why an attacker would lose sight on purpose and roll away from the bandit? It is not instinctive and at least in the track I can see some disadvantages:

For example the bigger distance between the attacker and the bandit after the attacker completes his move. And the second is that the attacker will lose sight on the bandit. And the third could be that the bandit sees the attacker losing sight (when the belly is pointed at him) . So maybe he can react to it by also pulling back up into the attacker without the attacker seeing it.

Oh well...

ljazz
06-13-2007, 03:49 AM
In Boyd's Aerial Attack Study, he shows the vector roll as a defensive manuever, where you break hard, and while in the turn you rudder roll either over the top or underneath (depending on your speed and bandits position) in order to disengage or force an overshoot (i know, there is more to it, but you need to read the study).

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/ljazz/Vectorrollunderneath.jpg

It seems to me were talking about "rolling out" (as described by Boyd) or, as you go back to Shaw's book, lag displacement rolls?

~S~
ljazz

Roblex
06-13-2007, 06:35 AM
What the original post described was very clearly a Lag Roll so all my answers have been based on the premise that whatever he called it he was talking about a Lag Roll.

If you think about it, almost all the moves mentioned here are variations on a Barrel Roll. The Lag Roll is a BR where you pull under once inverted and LJazzs diagram shows a turn leading into teh last 3/4 of a low barrel roll. The Yo-yo is kind of the first 1/4 of a barrel roll followed by the first 1/4 in reverse http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WWSensei
06-13-2007, 07:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Henkie327:
Ok thx, but now it is very confusing to me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

You spend more energy in a hi yoyo than in this maneuver? I don't understand that.http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif

In the track I see the attacker going to WEP to catch up with the bandit again because after completing the move the bandit was already far away.

But what I mostly don't understand is why an attacker would lose sight on purpose and roll away from the bandit? It is not instinctive and at least in the track I can see some disadvantages:

For example the bigger distance between the attacker and the bandit after the attacker completes his move. And the second is that the attacker will lose sight on the bandit. And the third could be that the bandit sees the attacker losing sight (when the belly is pointed at him) . So maybe he can react to it by also pulling back up into the attacker without the attacker seeing it.

Oh well... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The losing site was my error. I just looked in the wrong spot initially. Done correctly you actually don't lose sight of the bandit, but he loses sight of you.

As to the energy loss difference your speed stays higher while gaining about the same amount altitude as a high yo-yo.

CarpeNoctem43
06-13-2007, 08:14 AM
Thanks Sensei! (Raven here) Haven't had the chance to watch it yet but I know it'll answer a lot of my questions.

Roblex, sorry for the confusion on what I am asking about. Names of such things often overlap one another. Last night a package just came in the mail for me which helps out in this area: Shaw's Fighter Combat. From what I can tell with a cursory glance over this section is all these maneuvers are one form or another of the lag roll.

Henkie, I guess you are driving at why would someone do such a counter intuitive, out-of-plan, maneuver. The bottom line is to move yourself from a lead pursuit to a lag pursuit, when you can't pull enough lead for a shot, while you are in a high P-Load plane vs a Low Wing Load plane. Done properly, this out of plane maneuver could be used to nullify a maneuverability disadvantage - which is what gets me and my FW in trouble 90% of the time.

Being a high P-loading craft, the FW is desirable to fly in lag pursuit until the proper moment when you squeeze the trigger. A High Yo-Yo (and low ) are lead pursuits. Lead pursuits require more wing loading and often will require you to loose sight at inopportune moments. (I prefer to make this happen @ 200 meters or less not during key maneuvering stages)

The lag roll, vector roll, lag displacement roll, barrel roll attacks allows the pilot to utilize geometry when certain conditions apply:

1. pulling lead and an overshoot is likely to occur.
2. speed reduction is not desirable since speed may give you a maneuverability advantage (FW)
3. Pulling towards bandits extended 6 may cause you to loose sight.

This leaves us with some out of plane maneuver. Pulling up reduces closure rate while maintaining total E, rolling keeps the bandit in sight, coming back down you benefit from gravity assist which allows you to pull the bandit closer and offensively in a lag pursuit.

Also, this maneuver allows for you to counter bandit reversals, IMHO from almost any point during the maneuver.

I'm not looking for a one maneuver trumps all others move. I am querying so I can put something else in my bag for different scenarios.

While Sensei's track may show him loosing sight, due to bandit breaking the opposite way, I'm sure this track will show a good example of executing a lag roll. One must learn to walk before he can run. Properly executed High Yo-Yo require you to also loose sight of the bandit not once but twice; when you start the maneuver and when you finish it.

The bottom line is to make situations where you are offensive, a defensive plane isn't going to fly very long.

Best regards,

Raven

Henkie327
06-13-2007, 08:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWSensei:

The losing site was my error. I just looked in the wrong spot initially. Done correctly you actually don't lose sight of the bandit, but he loses sight of you.

As to the energy loss difference your speed stays higher while gaining about the same amount altitude as a high yo-yo. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know if you can speak of an error in losing sight by looking in the wrong direction. If you turn the belly to the bandit, then he will be behind the fuselage and you can't see him or see what he is doing unless you can look through the fuselage. Or is that not what you meant about losing sight?

Henkie327
06-13-2007, 09:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CarpeNoctem43:

Henkie, I guess you are driving at why would someone do such a counter intuitive, out-of-plan, maneuver. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well...not exactly... In the situation where the attacker is inside the bandits circle it would be the most intuitive thing to do for me.

I was commenting more on the track from WWsensei where he did the move that was counter intuitive to me, because he was outside the bandits turn circle, rolled away from the bandit and losing sight then having to go to WEP to catch up because the bandit was already pretty far away.
That is the situation where I can't see why somebody would use it.

CarpeNoctem43
06-13-2007, 09:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">That is the situation where I can't see why somebody would use it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That may be true. But this thread was not created for when to use it; but how to execute it. period. That's why Sensei offered up the track.

-Raven

Henkie327
06-13-2007, 11:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CarpeNoctem43:
That may be true. But this thread was not created for when to use it; but how to execute it. period. That's why Sensei offered up the track.

-Raven </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

could be, but knowing how to do a move means not much when it's not clear in which situation it must be used.

And excuse me for repeating it, but in the situation in the track I didn't see any advantages for it, only disadvantages.

MexicanSandwich
06-13-2007, 11:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Henkie327:

That is the situation where I can't see why somebody would use it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And as such, close minded individuals will never continue to learn, improvise and adapt. Because you have ALL the tools doesn't mean you have a need to use them ALL the time. Every maneuver will eventually find a place of employment...

If you apply the standard text book offense to combat the standard text defense what happens when someone makes a move that is not the "standard"? How will you know what to do?

You'd be better off listening and digesting what Sensei has to say. The man's been there and has done it. Not just sat in front of a screen with a joystick trying to envision how it is. Don't take it the wrong way you are entitled to your opinion, what you choose to do with that opinion is the question.


Herb Albert Rules!!!

ljazz
06-13-2007, 11:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Henkie327:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CarpeNoctem43:
That may be true. But this thread was not created for when to use it; but how to execute it. period. That's why Sensei offered up the track.

-Raven </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

could be, but knowing how to do a move means not much when it's not clear in which situation it must be used.

And excuse me for repeating it, but in the situation in the track I didn't see any advantages for it, only disadvantages. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I haven't seen the track, but the point to using the lag displacement is to create nose to tail separation. Even if this does nothing more than to keep the bandit on the defensive (not on the offensive and taking a shot at you), then the move is successful. Of course, like anything else, timing is key. Also keep in mind this move is one way to try and negate a bandits turn advantage.

And about the Shaw book..... very dry, and a bit more difficult to apply to this sim.... Boyd's Aerial Attack Study, to me, was much easier to put into practice, as it also gave counters to the manuevers described. And it was free!!!

It is available for d/l somewhere.... I just don't remember where. Do a search here on the forums.... someone has posted a link to it before.

ljazz

stalkervision
06-13-2007, 11:24 AM
I just wish when these artists draw these acm diagrams they make the ones like these a whole lot clearer to which wing is in what position throughout the diagram.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Roblex
06-13-2007, 11:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CarpeNoctem43:

I was commenting more on the track from WWsensei where he did the move that was counter intuitive to me, because he was outside the bandits turn circle, rolled away from the bandit and losing sight then having to go to WEP to catch up because the bandit was already pretty far away.
That is the situation where I can't see why somebody would use it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Personally I can't understand why people think it matters whether you are inside, outside or on his dead 6! Am I missing something?

If I see an aircraft flying along at 150kts below me and I dive in at 250kts in a FW190 only for him to spot me and pull a hard left then pulling left with him will just kill all my E and still leave me with too large a turn radius. It makes no difference if I was diving in from his 5 or his 6 or his 7; the result is almost identical. At that closing speed a high Y-Yo will still yield a very large radius turn even if I make it very high & very tight (which will kill a lot of my E!) The only answer is a maneouvre that involves a lot less G/Wing Loading and goes through more than 180 degrees to get back on the enemies tail. That means rolling right and coming through 220-270 degrees. To stop the seperation from increasing too much you also need to pull up and over to turn some of the E into a lesser vertical seperation which you can turn back into E again while further reducing the seperation once you are heading the same direction as him at a greater height.

Does that make sense?

How about this for an alternative explanation. We will consider it as primarily a vertical maneouvre instead....

-- When you dive from high six (or 5 or 7) on an enemy flying due North and he starts a tight turn to the left then instead of trying to follow his turn just pull up into a half loop with a roll off the top..... but.... as he is probably going to be facing West to South-West rather than due South when you roll out at the top then you need to roll right as you climb so that the half loop brings you out facing West to South-West the same as the enemy aircraft --

Is that easier to see?

rnzoli
06-13-2007, 12:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">At that closing speed a high Y-Yo will still yield a very large radius turn even if I make it very high & very tight (which will kill a lot of my E!) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Exactly what I wanted to post. Although I am not very good at theory, but the last time (few days ago) I did that opposite roll exactly in an F4F aganst a Zeke. Upon Henkie's question, I started to wonder why I didn't use a high yo-yo, and I realized that I cannot compensate a too high closure speed with a high yo-yo. It is more suitable when I have relatively comparable speeds, but when I have + 200 km/h because of diving from 2 km higher, it is better to do what the track shows, because the larger geomatrical loop radius will need the extra spacing between me and my opponent and hence the reason to roll to opposite.

Henkie327
06-13-2007, 01:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MexicanSandwich:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Henkie327:

That is the situation where I can't see why somebody would use it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And as such, close minded individuals will never continue to learn, improvise and adapt. Because you have ALL the tools doesn't mean you have a need to use them ALL the time. Every maneuver will eventually find a place of employment...

If you apply the standard text book offense to combat the standard text defense what happens when someone makes a move that is not the "standard"? How will you know what to do?

You'd be better off listening and digesting what Sensei has to say. The man's been there and has done it. Not just sat in front of a screen with a joystick trying to envision how it is. Don't take it the wrong way you are entitled to your opinion, what you choose to do with that opinion is the question.


Herb Albert Rules!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol..calm down and relax....

I am listening and trying to digest what I read here, but I need a bit more info than just saying that a vector roll is a lot smoother and loses less energy than a hi yoyo in the situation in the track. Also I am the opposite of closeminded, my mind is open, I ask questions and really want to understand it.

It doesn't clear things up to me it only confuses the situation. I see only disadvantages of the move in the track:

- sight was lost
- basically the attacker allowed the bandit to create big separation. So much separation that for example a zero could have turned around to meet the attacker headon again, which doesn't have to be bad http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, but it defeats the purpose of the move.

Well since you listened to WWSensei and digested what he said, maybe you can explain to me what the advantage of the maneuver is in the track?

Thank you.

CarpeNoctem43
06-13-2007, 01:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Well since you listened to WWSensei and digested what he said, maybe you can explain to me what the advantage of the maneuver is in the track? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Considering this thread has little to do with the track, ie when to use it; AND everything to do with how to use it this thread is finished. If you want to sit and argue, pretend you are God and demand that everyone else bend to your will, go make your own thread.

As to the benefits of performing a lag roll I think that it has been completely answered on page one and shall not be repeated; not by me.

Unless you have something to contribute I suggest you go start another thread and stop hijacking others with your holier than thou attitude.

-Raven

Henkie327
06-13-2007, 01:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Roblex:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CarpeNoctem43:

I was commenting more on the track from WWsensei where he did the move that was counter intuitive to me, because he was outside the bandits turn circle, rolled away from the bandit and losing sight then having to go to WEP to catch up because the bandit was already pretty far away.
That is the situation where I can't see why somebody would use it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Personally I can't understand why people think it matters whether you are inside, outside or on his dead 6! Am I missing something?

If I see an aircraft flying along at 150kts below me and I dive in at 250kts in a FW190 only for him to spot me and pull a hard left then pulling left with him will just kill all my E and still leave me with too large a turn radius. It makes no difference if I was diving in from his 5 or his 6 or his 7; the result is almost identical. At that closing speed a high Y-Yo will still yield a very large radius turn even if I make it very high & very tight (which will kill a lot of my E!) The only answer is a maneouvre that involves a lot less G/Wing Loading and goes through more than 180 degrees to get back on the enemies tail. That means rolling right and coming through 220-270 degrees. To stop the seperation from increasing too much you also need to pull up and over to turn some of the E into a lesser vertical seperation which you can turn back into E again while further reducing the seperation once you are heading the same direction as him at a greater height.

Does that make sense?

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, thx that makes a little bit more sense http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But only if the speed differences are big enough.

I was looking at the diagrams of the manoever where the attacker is always inside the bandits turn. In those diagrams/drawings it made sense to me that in that situation you can roll away from the bandits turn and still keep sight on him and end up behind him.

However there is still one question. When you are on the outside of his turn, and you roll away from his turn, you are going to lose sight of the bandit.

Henkie327
06-13-2007, 01:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CarpeNoctem43:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Well since you listened to WWSensei and digested what he said, maybe you can explain to me what the advantage of the maneuver is in the track? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Considering this thread has little to do with the track, ie when to use it; AND everything to do with how to use it this thread is finished. If you want to sit and argue, pretend you are God and demand that everyone else bend to your will, go make your own thread.

As to the benefits of performing a lag roll I think that it has been completely answered on page one and shall not be repeated; not by me.

Unless you have something to contribute I suggest you go start another thread and stop hijacking others with your holier than thou attitude.

-Raven </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I can only say to this that you take my words the wrong way ...

Roblex
06-14-2007, 12:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Henkie327:

However there is still one question. When you are on the outside of his turn, and you roll away from his turn, you are going to lose sight of the bandit. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is inevitably a brief period where you lose sight of the opponent but depending on what sort of canopy you have it may not be very long. The sort of aircraft you would be doing this in would be a FW190 or P47 which do not like high wing loadings but do have a fast roll rate; they also have very good visibility. As soon as you reach about 20-30 degrees roll to the right the enemy will be visible again and will stay visible for the rest of the maneouvre. Both aircraft roll very fast and the fact you are climbing rapidly brings the enemy into sight even quicker. Of course keeping your eye on the enemy is easier in real life or with track IR or maybe even padlock http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

dieg777
06-14-2007, 01:03 AM
a couple of advantages to using the lag roll - you do not lose as much E as a high yo-yo
you should reduce angle off at the end of the manouver and
the bandit usually does not expect it - if he turns left , he expects you to pull left so he can lose sight of you -

boyds aerial attack here-

http://www.d-n-i.net/boyd/pdf/boydaerialattack.pdf

good diagrams demonstrating manouvers

http://www.combataircraft.com/tactics/index.aspx

S

Henkie327
06-14-2007, 01:45 AM
Wow, impressive the link Dieg777. All kind of moves are decribed + the countermoves. Tried to find the vector roll attack, but he doesn't speak of that?

What I do read here is a detailed description about barrel roll attack and maybe it is what is talked about here?

From what I understand it, the writer writes that the entire maneuver is performed inside the defenders turn radius with high angle off.

And you are right, I read here that the purpose of the move is:

1. to reduce rate of closure
2. reduce angle off
3. to prevent separation.

However I have no idea how I can translate these 3 goals to what I saw in the track.

but thx for the link! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

rnzoli
06-14-2007, 04:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">However I have no idea how I can translate these 3 goals to what I saw in the track. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Don't even try that. Now it is your turn to record your own track about these issues, and share it with use for further discussions. Seriously.

Henkie327
06-14-2007, 04:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">However I have no idea how I can translate these 3 goals to what I saw in the track. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Don't even try that. Now it is your turn to record your own track about these issues, and share it with use for further discussions. Seriously. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good idea http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I will record a track and everybody is free to comment on it, say what I do wrong or did good or if it is not even at all what it should be. I am open to suggestions, because I want to reckognize the situation where I can use it.

Where do I upload it?

Ok, found one site to upload:

http://www.filefactory.com/file/d3a6d0/

I hope it works, so here it is, it is a short one but I hope it looks a bit like what the people describe here. Take a look and comment on it.http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

rnzoli
06-14-2007, 07:10 AM
If you don't have access to an FTP server, choose any of the free file hosting services:
http://www.google.com/search?q=free+file+upload+and+download&meta=

And yes, the idea is excellent. It's been done before, too. In fact, I still remember WWSensei among others), who helped me more than 2 years ago by flying a mission that I had trouble with, and sharing their tracks with me.

The reason why tracks are somewhat rare is that you normally fly to win, not to show off. A dirty but succeful menouver is good enough. So all tracks recorded under virtual combat circumstance exhibit a fair deal of mistakes and shortcomings, which can be easily criticised in an unfair way. It takes courage to bring your own track to public scrutiny, which is why I really appreaciate those individuals, who do that on a regular basis.

CarpeNoctem43
06-14-2007, 09:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">good diagrams demonstrating manouvers

http://www.combataircraft.com/tactics/index.aspx </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great link!

I think the maneuver of topic listed here is the rollaway. However the link to the large view is broken. You can almost make it out in the small view.

I wish names of such things were standard, but as one pilot expands on it, even slightly, the name changes even more.

Great link! Never knew they were out there.

I had a chance to try this out last night on War Clouds: FW-190 A-9 vs Tempest. All I can say is, it has potential. I found that the whole thing happened way too fast. I need time to work on it.

However, it is very natural in the sense of setting up a lag pursuit made things easy and that the FW was able to glide through the maneuver without shudders or black out.

Of course, I didn't record a track. I always forget until after the encounters. I'll try it tonight.

Best regards,

Raven

dieg777
06-14-2007, 10:11 AM
guys I thought it was listed as the barell roll attack in the examples.- I suppse it all depends on your initial angle of attack and speed wether you use this or high yo-yo

I was on warclouds in a tempest last night mate- was it the normandy map ? I had a hard time just staying alive in that one - I had one engagement with 2 fws , got tagged and ran away in a steep spiral dive, but I got home- I got 1 fw in the next mission tho http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

one of those pesky 110s got me as I closed on another fw over the base - it was fun

DooDaH2007
06-14-2007, 10:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Henkie327:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">However I have no idea how I can translate these 3 goals to what I saw in the track. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Don't even try that. Now it is your turn to record your own track about these issues, and share it with use for further discussions. Seriously. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good idea http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I will record a track and everybody is free to comment on it, say what I do wrong or did good or if it is not even at all what it should be. I am open to suggestions, because I want to reckognize the situation where I can use it.

Where do I upload it?

Ok, found one site to upload:

http://www.filefactory.com/file/d3a6d0/

I hope it works, so here it is, it is a short one but I hope it looks a bit like what the people describe here. Take a look and comment on it.http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this is indeed the manovure described in the topicstart post...

CarpeNoctem43
06-14-2007, 11:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I was on warclouds in a tempest last night mate- was it the normandy map ? I had a hard time just staying alive in that one - I had one engagement with 2 fws , got tagged and ran away in a steep spiral dive, but I got home- I got 1 fw in the next mission tho Wink </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wasn't the Normandy map. I think the very next one. Allies were ground attacking various locations (ie. AL18, AM19, AN19, etc. ) MASSIVE dogfights kept appearing over M18 (once there was 15+ red)

It was towards the end of this map. 2 axis were having trouble with 3-4 allies. I pulled inside the tempest with a good amount of smack, he was pulling to the right, on the tail of friendly. I pulling up about 20-30 degrees , rolled left(left rudder throughout roll ending up with almost 100% rudder input). Keeping him in sight, I began pulling under after rolling approximately 200-210 degrees, and unloaded rudder, to keep him at a nice separation (my guess, about 500-700 meters).

@ almost level flight the AOT is very low, I'm in a really nice lag pursuit and the closure rate is GREAT!

There were many mistakes:

1. I started to early
2. I should have timed this to keep him less than 500 meters. (Note: I think key figure would be equal to the turn radius of attacking plane)
The problem I had with this maneuver is it happens so fast. It's not the walter mitty type I thought it would be. Also, the maneuver reminds me of a Cuban 8, or rather a half of a Cuban 8, with quite a bit of lateral movement.

I don't know who I was chasing (there were at least 3 tempest on this map), but after dispatching the tempest the lights went out (PK) within 20 seconds. The map then changed to something else, and I called it a night. (Was about midnight eastern)

I was pretty bummed out with getting killed then as I had 3 kills that sortie and thus lost them all because of the death.

Last night had some serious allied talent. Just to stay alive we had to focus resources and be dead on with coordinations. Usually we can venture out with 2 to a group, last night we had to do 5 or 6 within 4-5 km area. Luckily towards the end of that map, we could focus on one ground cover as the allies seemed to only care about that one town.

Tell you what, meeting up with P-47's pose little problem (usually), P-51 mildly more difficult, spits i can get into trouble with, but the tempest scares me. This thing is fast (only below 2500 is the wulf faster), it can turn (only above 380 kph does the wulf out turn, but not much), it can dive and it can climb (i don't think there is anywhere the FW out climbs) ; but to top it off it's got 4 hispanos. But i'd rather meet up with a Tempest than another of those others, I know it'll be a tooth and nail fight as the tempest and wulf are so closely matched.

Well I'm rambling now. That's the time I was able to try this maneuver out. I definitely need more practice on this.

Best regards,

Raven

Henkie327
06-14-2007, 12:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
If you don't have access to an FTP server, choose any of the free file hosting services:
http://www.google.com/search?q=free+file+upload+and+download&meta=

And yes, the idea is excellent. It's been done before, too. In fact, I still remember WWSensei among others), who helped me more than 2 years ago by flying a mission that I had trouble with, and sharing their tracks with me.

The reason why tracks are somewhat rare is that you normally fly to win, not to show off. A dirty but succeful menouver is good enough. So all tracks recorded under virtual combat circumstance exhibit a fair deal of mistakes and shortcomings, which can be easily criticised in an unfair way. It takes courage to bring your own track to public scrutiny, which is why I really appreaciate those individuals, who do that on a regular basis. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

rgr, I will check that link out. Tracks for me are a good way to visualize learn and evaluate.

So any comments on the track that I posted? Bad or good any comment is appreciated. For me it's open to discussion.

JG14_Josf
06-14-2007, 03:48 PM
I didn't register at the site.

josf.kelley@verizon.net

Henkie327
06-14-2007, 04:25 PM
me neither http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, there is no need to register I think.

For the download just click this link

http://www.filefactory.com/file/d3a6d0/

it will give you another site and somewhere in the middle a link:

"Download for free with Filefactory Basic"


If you click that link it will ask a verification code and then if you type the code and hit enter, the download will start.

DooDaH2007
06-14-2007, 04:35 PM
I'll host it for you...
Use the link in your post if you wish...
I'll keep it up for now...

Download Henkie327 track here:
http://home.wanadoo.nl/chosen1/quick01.rar

-

JG14_Josf
06-14-2007, 04:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">"Download for free with Filefactory Basic" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks DooDah2007,

I tried the free thing and waded through multiple commercials (won't it be great when tivo removes commercials from the, ahhhh, menu?) only to end up too slow to catch the link starting the download whereupon another commercial message commenced.

Henkie327
06-14-2007, 05:02 PM
Ok, bedankt DoodaH2007! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

JG14_Josf
06-14-2007, 05:06 PM
As to my opinion of the track file with the biplanes:

A. I could not turn on/off manual view control for some reason.
B. I could not see how the maneuver looks from the pilot's perspective.
C. I could not see if the roll was made loaded or unloaded with elevator input during the roll (making a barrel roll by doing so).
D. I didn't see any rudder input (will look again).
E. The mechanics of the Barrel Roll Attack are present i.e.

1. Inside the targets turn.

2. Pulling up.

3. Rolling opposite the targets turn.

4. Getting behind the target.


The track file further confirms my viewpoint that the Barrel Roll Attack (or Lag Displacement Roll) is a lead turn.

By lead turn I mean a turn where the attacker maintains one turn radius separation from an opposite heading and then turns in behind the target.

A lead turn is something done against a bomber or non-maneuvering opponent heading toward you, since, two fighters can't both perform a lead turn on each other (because the one turn radius separation is gone as both planes turn into each other).

Additional missing information:

Was the target plane going slower?

Was the attacking plane going faster?

Did the target plane maximize turn performance?

Did the attacking plane maximize turn performance?

I ask the last two questions because the Barrel Roll Attack (If I understand the geometry) should work even if the target plane can turn a smaller turn radius.

I don't think the maneuver can work if the Attacking plane has a large turn rate disadvantage. In other words the Barrel Roll has to be rolled around quickly even if it is a wider diameter barrel compared to the horizontal diameter scribed by the target.

The track file does manage to narrow down many of the variables; and it looks like it worked.

Henkie327
06-14-2007, 05:50 PM
thx for the comments Josf http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ad A:
I have no idea why you should not be able to manually control the view?

ad B:
see ad A

ad C:
I can't remember exactly but I think I pulled the stick back

ad D:
I have no idea if I used rudder http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .

ad E:
I tried to get the mechanics right (1, 2, 3, 4). But I have to say that it's hard to get the AI in this game to turn even in the biplanes.
I remember diving a bit before I pulled up, don't exactly remember the speed but it was like 370 kph which I think is reasonably fast for a I153. Have no idea what the speed of the target plane was, but I think I would have overshot if I did nothing.

Anyway I think I got the 3 goals: reduce angle off, prevent an overshoot and prevent separation. Another nice thing was that I didn't lose sight of the target during the whole move.

JG14_Josf
06-14-2007, 07:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">By lead turn I mean a turn where the attacker maintains one turn radius separation from an opposite heading and then turns in behind the target. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>]

That should read "one turn diameter". Maintaining one turn radius will turn the attacker as far away as he started. I think the rudder is used to help maintain the lateral seperation during the turning part. I think that the idea is to press the limits of turn performance if the target is.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">thx for the comments Josf </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the topic; it is one of my favorites.

CarpeNoctem43
06-15-2007, 02:11 PM
Here's a thought on getting the AI to cooperate.

Make a mission in FMB with you trailing AI @ about 700k behind and to one side. With AI flying say 030 - 060 and you flying 000. Make sure you set it up that you have a speed advantage.

I think this will work as you are 120-150 degrees AOT. AI Should turn into you.

Raven

JG14_Josf
06-15-2007, 02:27 PM
CarpeNoctem43,

I do not intend to hijack this thread; however -on a related note:

Are you familiar with Robert Shaw's Sustained Turn Technique?

It works very well in the game for many situations.

CarpeNoctem43
06-15-2007, 03:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">CarpeNoctem43,

I do not intend to hijack this thread; however -on a related note:

Are you familiar with Robert Shaw's Sustained Turn Technique?

It works very well in the game for many situations. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No I'm not familiar with that... yet... Just got Shaw's book this week - on page 25 weapon systems - guns.

Briefly flipped through but nothing else.

Sustained Turn Technique? Could this be flying at your best turn speed? I.e. FW-190 A-9 = 380kph?

JG14_Josf
06-15-2007, 04:42 PM
CarpeNoctem43,

The Sustained Turn Technique is found (if I remember correctly) in the one on one dissimilar section where the energy fighter defeats the angles fighter.

The idea is to use two circle geometry to defeat the turn radius advantage of the angles fighter utilizing a baiting technique that ends up with a vertical zoom climb and a pitch back stalling type turn, where, the angles fighter must be lured into burning more energy before the energy fighter ˜bets the farm'.

It is a lot of fun to accomplish this in the game and I really get a kick out of hearing other players warn other players against vertical zoom climbs. That seems so ridiculous to me – I use them all the time and the only reason they don't work is when the estimate on relative energy states is poor; like betting the farm on a coin flip with two heads (thinking they are two tails).

Once you read about it the concept may be easily recognized. It took me awhile to get a grasp on it. Now I see the technique as an essential to understanding energy tactics; especially the geometry aspect.

Couple the two circle versus one circle geometry and one circle or nose to nose geometry with Boyd's ˜natural hook' perspective and fighter combat really starts making sense.

If you get proficient at using the sustained turn technique (if you don't already use it but are not aware of the ˜label'), then, you may find your fights entering into a new dimension (again if you don't already use this) as you find more and more of your fights going vertical. More and more fights (when finding someone trying to do the same thing) become vertical rolling scissor fights.

It isn't a doctrine to be followed one step followed by another step all the time under all circumstances, of course, but this type of maneuver (the sustained turn technique) is much more applicable to the game than the Barrel Roll Attack.

The Sustained Turn Technique works whenever a fight begins with the opponent in your forward hemisphere and your opponent is attacking you.

Possibly the most useful part of this technique is learning relative energy states by using this technique. It is a relatively safe way to set-up a killing shot. During the maneuver the option of disengaging is open (assuming that the fight started without the enemy being a lot faster and a lot higher) up until your set-up point where you have to either ˜bet the farm' with a vertical zoom or, at that crucial time, exist the fight with a nose low extension.

Cajun76
06-16-2007, 12:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CarpeNoctem43:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">good diagrams demonstrating manouvers

http://www.combataircraft.com/tactics/index.aspx </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Great link!</span>

I think the maneuver of topic listed here is the rollaway. However the link to the large view is broken. You can almost make it out in the small view.

I wish names of such things were standard, but as one pilot expands on it, even slightly, the name changes even more.

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Great link! Never knew they were out there.</span>

I had a chance to try this out last night on War Clouds: FW-190 A-9 vs Tempest. All I can say is, it has potential. I found that the whole thing happened way too fast. I need time to work on it.

However, it is very natural in the sense of setting up a lag pursuit made things easy and that the FW was able to glide through the maneuver without shudders or black out.

Of course, I didn't record a track. I always forget until after the encounters. I'll try it tonight.

Best regards,

Raven </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

....the second post in the thread had some of those links....

Henkie327
06-17-2007, 06:36 AM
Yes, very nice diagrams on that site.

Typical, so far, all the diagrams I saw of this move have the attacker on the inside of the targets turn.

I think that in the Boyd manual he writes also that the barrel roll attack is done inside the turn of the target.

Matz0r
06-17-2007, 07:00 AM
A rolling vector attack; me attacking enemy from behind, enemy breaks 90 degrees to avoid, I enter barrel roll and exit the roll in the direction of the enemy and roll my plane upright - then I'm on the enemies six again, with more E. It also works for attacking an enemy with a course perpendicular to mine, instead of break turning into his six I use the roll...

It never occurred to me before, that this could be called a rolling vector attack - it's just a maneuver I've been doing to gain advantage.