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crazyivan1970
06-16-2006, 10:02 AM
Oleg had problems logging in, so he asked me to post this. This change is not listed in the readme of Manjuria addon.
Addon is not out yet, hopefully next week. So, add following to the readme when it`s out http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

****

in 4.06 (SoM) changed following

Joystick control input was changed in accordance with pilots' wishes.


Such function adds feel of the real size control column which is way longer than such of Joysick.
Optimized for default settings of Joystick curves. However for some planes would be better any way exponente (recomended in DVD readme-manual version).
***

crazyivan1970
06-16-2006, 10:02 AM
Oleg had problems logging in, so he asked me to post this. This change is not listed in the readme of Manjuria addon.
Addon is not out yet, hopefully next week. So, add following to the readme when it`s out http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

****

in 4.06 (SoM) changed following

Joystick control input was changed in accordance with pilots' wishes.


Such function adds feel of the real size control column which is way longer than such of Joysick.
Optimized for default settings of Joystick curves. However for some planes would be better any way exponente (recomended in DVD readme-manual version).
***

notamuppet
06-16-2006, 10:11 AM
Great news http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif next week is better than 2 weeks!

F19_Olli72
06-16-2006, 10:11 AM
Thanks for the update.

Though I dont really understand...is the default sensitivity lowered in the sticksettings?

crazyivan1970
06-16-2006, 10:47 AM
I havent played 406, so i cannot really tell what that means Olli, i guess we shall see.

JG52Karaya-X
06-16-2006, 11:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Joystick control input was changed in accordance with pilots' wishes.


Such function adds feel of the real size control column which is way longer than such of Joysick.
Optimized for default settings of Joystick curves. However for some planes would be better any way exponente (recomended in DVD readme-manual version). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

I dont have the slightest idea what to expect... maybe "the man himself" can tell us a little bit more about what this is all about in the near future?

justflyin
06-16-2006, 11:31 AM
Joystick settings and the sliders in the INPUT section have always been a determining factor to one's ability to control the planes in this sim at the highest level possible. And in most cases of "why can't I turn like you or why do I stall out in a turn" it is due to those joystick sliders.

Everything from all 100s to super-low numbers to everywhere in-between has been used. It will be interesting to see what exactly they changed, because what has been written so far is cryptic at best. Not that it's anyone's fault, it just isn't exactly clear what has been changed.

Hey Ivan, what are the odds of you posting the rest of the coming ReadMe from V4.06?!? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Waldo.Pepper
06-16-2006, 11:37 AM
This is going to f up a lot of people.

I think this may be the "Bountybox" issue for this release!

JG52Uther
06-16-2006, 12:32 PM
Yeah cant wait! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

crazyivan1970
06-16-2006, 12:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by justflyin:
Hey Ivan, what are the odds of you posting the rest of the coming ReadMe from V4.06?!? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not good http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

JG52Uther
06-16-2006, 12:46 PM
If it has Boonty,are the installing issues fixed? (no flame)

TgD Thunderbolt56
06-16-2006, 12:50 PM
Thanks Ivan.

LOL...everybody's back to the proverbial drawing board...I luv it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

leitmotiv
06-16-2006, 01:19 PM
YEEEEEHAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!! Oleg must have read with great attention real pilot Viper2005_'s postings on stick settings last week (as did I) which were fascinating, and I applied his suggestions with great effect---removed all traces of the "wobble." Oleg is TOPS!

WWSensei
06-16-2006, 01:46 PM
Here is the effect I think it will have...

I predict many people will not read the ReadMe file and will proceed to post about how all the FMs were changed and now it's hosed/porked screwed up. These same vpilots will proclaim their favorite ride (independant of which side they fly) was porked while "the other guy's" aircraft was ubered.

The real drama queens will cry to the heavens that Oleg has ruined it all and then post endless posts about how they are either a) leaving for good, or b) going back to some previous version. Aside from the drama queens themselves a sum total of about 6 other people will care one way or the other about their cries of doom and gloom.

Hedge72
06-16-2006, 02:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
YEEEEEHAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!! Oleg must have read with great attention real pilot Viper2005_'s postings on stick settings last week (as did I) which were fascinating, and I applied his suggestions with great effect---removed all traces of the "wobble." Oleg is TOPS! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey leitmotiv, can you please post a link to this thread? I would love to check this out!

Thanks m8!

Hedge

FoolTrottel
06-16-2006, 02:12 PM
Hedge, it's probably somewhere in this thread:
2004 interesting thread: eric brown comments on FB (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/1171011154/r/1171011154#1171011154) Is it?

Hedge72
06-16-2006, 02:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FoolTrottel:
Hedge, it's probably somewhere in this thread:
2004 interesting thread: eric brown comments on FB (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/1171011154/r/1171011154#1171011154) Is it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks a bunch FoolTrottel! I'll head over and check it out!

S!

Hedge

leitmotiv
06-16-2006, 02:20 PM
Here yer go, Hedge72---just read all of Viper2005_'s postings to see what this is all about:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/117...171011154#1171011154 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/1171011154/r/1171011154#1171011154)

Your prediction will doubtlessly come true, WWSensei---my bet is that this mod will make all those who think WWII fighters should handle like Pitts Specials birth live cows. Cheers!

II_JG1_Falke
06-16-2006, 02:21 PM
You gotta be kidding me! Which pilots wishes? Not mine! And it's the first I've heard of a problem with the joy stick. I'm mean some one please show me a posts in any of the forums reporting such a problem. It must be one that I've totally missed!

With the exception of the up elevator locking up to soon and "IMHO" to drastically on the 109's, the planes handle better, at least on my CH Fighter Stick than ever before.

Now I'm going to have to freakin relearn things again? And I'll bet that stick control around the middle, when your trying to take aim is going to be a *****. That's one we finally got settled too. How much you want to bet everyone will be *****ing about that again.

Geeze Oleg, that's micro management gone berserk! I say leave it be and don't fix it if it ain't broke, the sim is basically fine as is.

I also noticed after reading the majority of the post linked above, that the settings would be useless, even dangerous for on-line play.

mandrill7
06-16-2006, 03:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Addon is not out yet, hopefully next week. So, add following to the readme when it`s out http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
*** </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the great news! I've got a campaign written for the A-20 which I want to try doing with the A-20C variant; so I've been chomping at the bit for the new release!

SeaFireLIV
06-16-2006, 04:47 PM
Hopefully, this could mean that AI may return to less frenetic mad manouevers, since Humans won`t be able to do them.... If I understand right. Otherwise, AI will be literally ufos around us.

WWMaxGunz
06-16-2006, 05:16 PM
Ivan, please tell Oleg that some of us would like to know what is changing, how.

It took me long enough the first time to understand what joystick movement meant and that only
after observing the 3D cockpit stick flutter while my joystick was not moving at all coupled
with Oleg's revelation to us about strength based stick and d@mned little besides those words.
Once I had that down I was able to use the controls far more intelligently than Ogg pull, nose
goes up! You dig?

The current way has advantages over what was used before in sims I've played but it also has
it's funny dynamics which is why I like to know how the interface works and where the limits
are. I can't abide with black boxes over something so critical as steering whicle I guess
that Ogg can as long as he can b!tch about the FM over what are really control issues. So
yes Sensei has it square but at the same time nothing given for understanding may put us ALL
in the same box with Ogg. And I sure hope that Oleg has enough care no to do that.

VW-IceFire
06-16-2006, 07:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWSensei:
Here is the effect I think it will have...

I predict many people will not read the ReadMe file and will proceed to post about how all the FMs were changed and now it's hosed/porked screwed up. These same vpilots will proclaim their favorite ride (independant of which side they fly) was porked while "the other guy's" aircraft was ubered.

The real drama queens will cry to the heavens that Oleg has ruined it all and then post endless posts about how they are either a) leaving for good, or b) going back to some previous version. Aside from the drama queens themselves a sum total of about 6 other people will care one way or the other about their cries of doom and gloom. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Your a prophet of the future man...and its all too true!

Bearcat99
06-16-2006, 10:18 PM
We will see soon enough..

Flying_Nutcase
06-16-2006, 10:55 PM
It'll be interesting to see what's going to happen to stick settings. Cross fingers for AI performance being toned down.

And Manchuria next week. Nice. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ElAurens
06-16-2006, 11:39 PM
I suspect that this is Oleg's way to test the BoB control input regime.

leitmotiv
06-16-2006, 11:56 PM
Realistic AI performance would be a great last gift for IL-2 from Oleg---whatever, Manchuria planes will be welcome---AVG Hawk 81s against their historical opponents Ki-21s and Ki-27s---poor bistids!

Harras
06-17-2006, 02:08 AM
Thank you for the update, Ivan http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif . Could you inqire if the AI will be fixed in 4.06m ? An older statement from Oleg seems to suggest that:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NerdConnected:
SeaFireLIV,

FYI, just got a reply from Oleg. They've looked at some AI issues I've sent them (also pointed them to this thread of course), and Maddox confirms there are some issues with the current AI/FM and they will look into this and fix it.

However, he said they will not make a any code changes until the Pe-2 add-on and free map from Ian Boys (Burma) are released.

So, we just have to wait and hope that the Pe-2 add-on and the new map from Ian Boys will be released soon ;-)

Mark </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Source: http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/5271058714/p/4

Ironman69
06-17-2006, 03:18 AM
can somebody please translate what oleg stated into comprehensible terms? Is what he's saying, our controls will feel less-responsive...and take more time getting the "control column" from one extreme position to the other?

WWMaxGunz
06-17-2006, 03:54 AM
I'd be real happy to see a force-adjusted delay on stick movement, it takes time to pull
against higher stick forces.

Maraz_5SA
06-17-2006, 08:46 AM
Flying_Nutcase, there is no relation between stick settings and AI performances. The AI pilots does not have to pull the stick to manoeuvre.

Announcing that a change will be made without saying what the change will be... this could have been done better...

Maraz

LEBillfish
06-17-2006, 09:09 AM
Though I skipped over a number of posts at the first hinting of grumbling (so may have missed an explination).....I think the one posted from Oleg is very clear......That being the way control inputs are read has been altered to "simulate" a planes "longer yoke/control stalk/stick"...To react more "as" real....As in, more travel to reach the same amount of translated movement......(truth is though your stick is actually somewhat proportional already).

IOW, the controls will seem dampened and the "default" 0-100 settings "should be" perfect vs. having to dampen it through adjusting the stick movement profiles in the sim........This to compensate for us not having the control of a 10" throw in any direction yet a 2 1/2" throw......Meaning you with a joystick need to be 400% (or whatever math probably wrong)...more sensitive then with a real stick.

That's my "guess"......One that doesn't make a lot of sense to me in that Real vs. Sim sticks are already physically "proportional", so I'd "guess" that the 0-100 straight line (actually a curve) has been altered in the sim so that nominal set of numbers ACTUALLY translates into a more modified curve.....Having you closer to ideal from "default"........Any tweaks you do simply to compensate for your quirks.

Ex.: (all in %)
Old way;
100%-100% straight line meant move the stick half its travel it was translated as half its travel.....
0%-100% Default curve meant move the stick half it's travel (that setting say 50%) it was translated as 1/4 its travel.....

New way....(a curve already added, yet not seen);
100%-100% straight line meant move the stick half its travel it is translated as 1/3rd its travel.....
0%-100% Default curve meant move the stick half it's travel (that setting say 50%) it was translated as 1/6th its travel.....

All just a guess but how it sounds to me..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Capt.LoneRanger
06-17-2006, 09:46 AM
Could also mean, the filter is enhanced. As it is now, turning it to 0 means you instantly have the stick set to the position the joystick is pointing (if all input-values are 100 - or to whatever portion, if it is less than that)

Raising the filter leads to a slight lag between stick-input and control-surface-movement and it also produces a lot more real and smooth movement.
In game terms will it make aiming more easy, Spit-Wonder breakes impossible.


@ Ironman69
Either way, it means I have a good chance to win the upper hand with my settings the next time we meet http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Feathered_IV
06-17-2006, 10:07 AM
So, back up our current settings now then?

Capt.LoneRanger
06-17-2006, 11:22 AM
No.

If they say they're going to change it for all, it's gonna be in the hardcoded stuff and will be applicable for everybody.

This is, of course, pure speculation, but I know of the completely different flight-behaviour that can be reached by simply editing the .ini, that this leads to a bit unrealistic input-behaviour, making some moves possible, that no real plane could do due to stick-movement and resistance of the stick in reality.

Personally, I welcome this change, though the whining will be loud on these boards. You will need more tactics and less reaction, as it should be IMHO.

FatBoyHK
06-17-2006, 02:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
YEEEEEHAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!! Oleg must have read with great attention real pilot Viper2005_'s postings on stick settings last week (as did I) which were fascinating, and I applied his suggestions with great effect---removed all traces of the "wobble." Oleg is TOPS! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

oh i missed that post, any pointer?

Capt.LoneRanger
06-17-2006, 03:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Captain Brown's Settings

Want to get the most realistic Il-2:FB experience possible? After testing, Captain Brown managed to help define what he considers the most realistic joystick sensitivity settings. If you have a copy of Il-2:FB and would like to emulate this go into Hardware setup, then 'Input' then 'Controls' - when you will find a range of sliders. Adjust these to:

Pitch 0, 1, 3, 7, 9, 14, 18, 23, 27, 33
Roll 0, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 10, 12, 17
Yaw 0, 0, 1, 2, 5, 6, 8, 11, 14, 16 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

AEP reviewed by Cpt. Eric Brown
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110...=875101634#875101634 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=309109534&r=875101634#875101634)

That's the thread I guess? A WW2 pilot made some very interesting statements about IL2 vs Reality (e,g, Bf110 used BnZ tactics and didn't fall apart) and helped finding the above settings to be what it really was like. I guess that is one reason why Oleg reconsidered the instant-turn-settings.

WWMaxGunz
06-17-2006, 04:54 PM
Pulling stick force is a bit like lifting weights. Moderate weight lifted at constant rate
is same as holding the stick against force. Moving stick against force is like accelerating
the weight as you lift. See if you can punch as fast with a 25lb/12kg piece of steel in
your hand. Not that hard to do if you do regular labor or workout. But slower than without
unless your muscle mass limits your speed empty handed.
Now do it in a centrifuge. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif That's something I can't say I've done.

I also think that the harder you pull, the less fine your control gets so maybe sliders in
a slanted line would be more real. Gee, my pitch runs 64 to 100 in steps of 4. Yaw is 40
to 76 in steps of 4. Roll is 10 to 100 in steps of 10 (another straight line but the
response ratio joystick move to strength increases by squares, parabolic not linear).

With my pitch sliders 10% stick movement back from center gets 6.4% pull while +10% back
at half way gets change of 10.4% (50.4%-40%) so less fine control with effort (which is why
with some slider settings it becomes _very_ easy to over pull and stall). At the last 10%
I get 13.6% (100%-86.4%) or just a bit over twice the response as at center. Works okay
for me with Saitek X-52.

I think that a pilot may use two arms before one arm can't pull more just for steadier
more precise control against backforces.

Having a base amount to all filter would slow movements down without extra code.
If the same could apply to keys then perhaps the TRIM DELAY could use filter instead of
timer with set move amount? I know that I would be really much happier if the trim could
be stopped while moving and still at a governed rate, the filter will do that with enough
and code is already there.

leitmotiv
06-17-2006, 05:24 PM
This is the thread, FatBoyHK and Capt.LoneRanger---in particular read the posts by Viper2005_, I suspect these influenced Oleg or encouraged him to go ahead with his own plans for increasing stick resistance to realistic levels. Until I saw Eric Brown's settings and Viper's comments, I didn't realize how ludicrously easy the default stick settings were. Now I am using Brown's settings and changed my stick property settings to cause maximum resistance (still not historical, according to Viper, but now I am fighting and levering my stick like an actor in a WWII-era film---at least my P-47 is no longer as maneuverable as a Pitts Special).

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/117...171011154#1171011154 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/1171011154/r/1171011154#1171011154)

Capt.LoneRanger
06-17-2006, 05:49 PM
Thanks for the link!

Oleg, Ivan and others posted similar settings here, too, since the original IL2 was released.

It feels a lot more real that way, but if you have to fly against a Spit with maxed out settings, you have absolutely no chance.

I really hope the Patch will fix that.

leitmotiv
06-17-2006, 06:13 PM
You are right, Capt.LoneRanger, if you are up against somebody with default settings or the AI, they will eat your lunch if you use historical resistance. I look at it this way, I like to fly as close to the way the real machine flew as possible. If I get humiliated by the b----y AI, for example, that's the price I pay. To have a unified system would be best even though the birthing scream will be deafening in some quarters!

Codex1971
06-17-2006, 06:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Captain Brown's Settings

Want to get the most realistic Il-2:FB experience possible? After testing, Captain Brown managed to help define what he considers the most realistic joystick sensitivity settings. If you have a copy of Il-2:FB and would like to emulate this go into Hardware setup, then 'Input' then 'Controls' - when you will find a range of sliders. Adjust these to:

Pitch 0, 1, 3, 7, 9, 14, 18, 23, 27, 33
Roll 0, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 10, 12, 17
Yaw 0, 0, 1, 2, 5, 6, 8, 11, 14, 16 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I was up till 3am last night trying out those settings...I'm only speaking from an FW190 point of view here.

It would seem that these settings force realistic stick movement in how a pilot would have flown for real back then...while flying in QMB at no point in a turning fight did I loose as much E as I normally do. I was turning, in an FW mind you, at speeds no less than 450km/h because I was never hitting full deflection on the stick! But the 1 on 1 engagements lasted about 3 times longer with an AI as it all came down tactics, trying to force the AI to make an error and take the advantage from him...its brought a whole new perspective to employing tactics. So I guess the author of the article is right, those settings do provide realistic joystick movement.

I suspect however, in a DF server, I wouldn't last 5min in an engagement with those settings because those settlings don't provide full deflection. There are just some things you can't do which you could in real life with those settings. Take note of the yaw ranges. I suspect they only reviewed IL-2FB from the QMB because there is no way you can steer your plane on the ground with those rudder settings!

As others have said from threads linked above...these settlings are great for making you fly your plane in the same way pilots would have flown fighters back then, but you've got no chance in a DF server or taxing on the ground.

Blottogg
06-17-2006, 08:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Pulling stick force is a bit like lifting weights. Moderate weight lifted at constant rate
is same as holding the stick against force. Moving stick against force is like accelerating
the weight as you lift. See if you can punch as fast with a 25lb/12kg piece of steel in
your hand. Not that hard to do if you do regular labor or workout. But slower than without
unless your muscle mass limits your speed empty handed.
Now do it in a centrifuge. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif That's something I can't say I've done.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

False analogy, Neal. Increasing mass to increase the resistive force also increases inertia. Inertia remains constant in the control system as speed (and aerodynamic load) change. I should be able to exert a change in force on the controls in the same amount of time, regardless of speed.

What will change is the deflection that force achieves, as you pointed out earlier (or in another thread, I'm hopping around a lot in Oleg's RR.) What drives me nuts right now are two effects:

1) The current delay or damping effect of the rudder is excessive, and seems constant across the speed envelope. Sit on the runway and move the rudder control from stop to stop. It takes the better part of a second, in the same period it would take me to slam the rudder from stop to stop several times in a real aircraft. This wasn't a big deal prior to 4.XX, but with P-factor at least crudely modeled now (it seems to react to AoA correctly, but is on/off at a certain speed during T/O, though I could be imagining this) the rudder delay leads to a frustration PIO, especially when fine-tuning a gun shot.

2) Back stick pressure leads to an AoA increase and initial pitch rate, but then the pitch rate drops radically after the nose takes a set. There should be some decrease in horizontal tail downforce as AoA increases, but right now I think this too is excessive, leading to a ratcheting effect in pitch. Your comments on force command (in game stick moving with player's joystick fixed as airspeed changes allow the command force to vary in game stick deflection) but this sim-ism doesn't explain the pitch ratchet.

As for Capt Brown's settings, this was for an earlier version of the sim (3.04?), and I think he was trying to replicate sensitivity, not perhaps maximum roll or pitch rates. When I put a CAF buddy who flys "Ole Red Nose" in the seat to try a P-51 in the sim, his first comment was "rolls too fast". I use Oleg's settings for pitch and roll, and have all the sliders at 100% for rudder.

If Oleg is inputting a dampening factor into pitch and roll to emulate the longer stick throws of the actual aircraft, I'm afraid my rudder PIO experience will merely spread to the other two axes. I hope this isn't the case.

WWMaxGunz
06-17-2006, 10:49 PM
It takes more pull to move the stick fast than slow and since there is work involved I do
believe that how much gets how fast can be calculated in game although the cost is not free,
see: framerate. I was thinking distance moved in time against force, not just the force.
And I was looking for a simple common example of how moving a mass fast against gravity is
harder than moving a mass slow against gravity even if it's more total work with the slow
lift.

Why might the wing and tail AOA's ratchet? Perhaps the totalling of forces and cross-forces
not all happening in parallel (real world) but at some quickly run reduced way we have no info
on, there may be places for some degree of numeric ratcheting. It's not like it was in 3.x.

leitmotiv
06-17-2006, 11:56 PM
I had no difficulty taking a 190A-8 on a drive from runway to runway and along tracks using Brown's settings and after setting my Logitech Wingman 3D for maximum resistance on stick properties, Codex1971.

What I have noticed from battling the AI with these settings is that I am "stomping" on my pedals, as the real wartime pilots describe it, when I am engaged. With the default pitch, roll, yaw settings and easier stick resistance settings, I could do almost everything with my ailerons and elevators---I needed rudder for fine adjustments and that was it. Now a "bootful of rudder" is my best bet for reacquiring some of the maneuverability I've lost. One thing is definite---without the fine adjustments possible with the springier default settings, I have to close to 100 meters or less to hit. I think my stick's life expectancy has been severely reduced by the higher resistance---I am struggling with it, fighting with it, choking it, and nearly tearing it off its mounting now.

There is one thing which perplexes me about the AI---beyond dispute it can perform high G maneuvers at high speed beyond human capability, but why is it I can always out-turn the AI in a high speed turning fight down on the deck? Why do they always break off?

lowfighter
06-18-2006, 01:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Such function adds feel of the real size control column which is way longer than such of Joysick.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So am I wrong assuming that this will make all AC a bit more sluggish that they are now. And at the same time not diminishing the edge characteristics of each AC (max roll rate etc)?

Codex1971
06-18-2006, 07:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
I had no difficulty taking a 190A-8 on a drive from runway to runway and along tracks using Brown's settings and after setting my Logitech Wingman 3D for maximum resistance on stick properties, Codex1971. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm...thats stange...I have an X52 and I had increase the last three values to over 50 before I could even turn on the tarmac.

I'll experiment a little more. Thank god for IL-2 sticks

Codex1971
06-18-2006, 07:41 AM
Nope just tried it...I can't steer the thing on those settings. I can turn left but the rudder doesn't have enough deflection to steer it to the right, which is what I need to keep it straight when taking off.

I have also noticed that IL2 Sticks comes with a modified version of Capt'n Borwn's settings for 4.01...

Pitch 0 0 0 3 5 8 12 16 21 27 34
Roll 0 0 1 3 7 9 14 18 23 27 33
Yaw 0 0 0 2 4 6 9 12 17 21 26

slipBall
06-18-2006, 08:15 AM
I tried these settings and I don't think any aircraft from the war years would have had these responces to input

triad773
06-18-2006, 09:14 AM
Really interesting stuff. Yes I hope that the playing field is leveled based on some sort of new math relating to stick throw. I read the article on Capt. Brown's settings with great interest recently also. Have to say I have a somewhat easier time getting the craft down in one piece now.

Had not the opportunity to test those settings against online foe but suspect I would not fair well. And taxiing seems tricker also; but the birds where built to fly, not run across tarmac.

So if this were to be in the next iteration, I think it'd be great as long as AI were similarly throttled.

~S~

Triad

heywooood
06-18-2006, 09:24 AM
all attempts to analyze what this control input change will mean to ingame flight control is pure conjecture and or paranoia....'gamers' fear it will affect 'scoring' zzzzzzzzz......

Best news from this is that Manchuria addon is close to release and thats a good thing Martha.

NonWonderDog
06-18-2006, 10:57 AM
Don't put too much stock in those stick settings. They make it so that 5" of top deflection of your joystick is equal to 5" of top deflection of a real fighter joystick, but WWII flight sticks move a LOT more than 5". It's only realistic if you have no intention of fighting, and thus don't NEED more than 5" of stick travel.

In any case, WWII fighters should definitely be more maneuverable than the Cessnas I've flown and flown in. With those stick settings they aren't.

WWMaxGunz
06-18-2006, 11:34 AM
Look at roll rates. We have ideas about roll rate from measured maximums. But the pilot
cannot move the stick so fast as a PC stick will.

If there is filter and you move your stick realistically you will never notice it.
It is snapping the joystick around quick and wide that is unreal. Short movement will only
have a short delay with base filter. Will you see it above inertia of the plane? Nah.

VW-IceFire
06-18-2006, 12:02 PM
This sounds really interesting. I noticed once again that our WWII simulation birds and the airshow aircraft fly quite a bit differently. They never pull really hard...they are always smooth transitioning from one manuever to another. Mind you they are being careful...but even in gun camera footage they were much "slower". So in thinking about this change...I'm interested to see what it does. It may be very interesting...

One thing I would REALLY ask everyone to do is spend some time with it before making some critical comments. This may change your routine...it will probably change mine.

Maraz_5SA
06-18-2006, 01:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Codex1971:
Pitch 0 0 0 3 5 8 12 16 21 27 34
Roll 0 0 1 3 7 9 14 18 23 27 33
Yaw 0 0 0 2 4 6 9 12 17 21 26 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I really hope that settings like these will not be the default settings in 4.06, because these settings prevent full deflection of all three axes.

There are lots of situations where you need full deflection, e.g. full rudder during takeoff, full elevator when you recover from a dive (oh my god, the bf.109 has already bad elevator response, with these settings it will achieve the elevator response of a B-747...)

Maraz

leitmotiv
06-18-2006, 01:56 PM
Maybe it is the Saitek, Codex1971? I have that stick, and I like it because it has a shaft, it's not an F-16 hand controler like most game "sticks." I keep using my Logitech Wingman Force 3D because it delivers the biggest dollop of force feedback of any FF stick I've found---I'm an immersion junky, not a competitive player. Anyway, I am able to gingerly go for a "drive" with my Logitech using a great deal of throttle work.

vocatx
06-18-2006, 03:32 PM
I would expect that Oleg & co. have fully tested the new FM before deciding to release it in this up-date. I doubt that the modifications will be quite what any of us expect, especially when it comes to control surface movements.

You can easily fully deflect any control surface on an airplane, be it a Cessna, Bonanza, or a Mustang when it is taxiing. Once in the air, however, the resistance provided by aerodynamic loading becomes progressively greater. Each time you double the speed, drag, or in this case control resistance, goes up FOUR times.

I am very interested to try this new FM out. I have confidence that it has been fully tested. The more realism the better. I've stated before, I would love to see torque modeled to the point that these "crank the engine, firewall the throttle" numbskulls on-line end up inverted next to the runway. I think this is going to be a great step toward realism, and a view to what BoB is going to be like.

leitmotiv
06-18-2006, 04:28 PM
Cheers, vocatx!

wolf-striked
06-18-2006, 06:09 PM
Ok,Oleg couldnt log on friday to write this himself.It is now sunday.A little post from him as to what they are thinking would be nice.

Such function adds feel of the real size control column which is way longer than such of Joysick.
Optimized for default settings of Joystick curves. However for some planes would be better any way exponente (recomended in DVD readme-manual version).


What does he mean by"However for some planes would be better any way exponente"??

Codex1971
06-19-2006, 04:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wolf-striked:
Ok,Oleg couldnt log on friday to write this himself.It is now sunday.A little post from him as to what they are thinking would be nice.

Such function adds feel of the real size control column which is way longer than such of Joysick.
Optimized for default settings of Joystick curves. However for some planes would be better any way exponente (recomended in DVD readme-manual version).


What does he mean by"However for some planes would be better any way exponente"?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have no idea! But it sounds as though he's changing something so that your joystick will mimic a real control columns range of travel or feel.

I wonder if Oleg is going to lock the stick settings and get IL-2/PF to "learn" your sticks range of travel. The sim could then read your inputs and then translate those inputs to the a/c you are flying. That way everyone would have the same "feel" for the a/c no matter what stick they were using.

RxMan
06-19-2006, 06:16 AM
Just a thought, but taxing around the runways is controlled more by the brakes then by the rudder anyway. But we do use the rudder to differentiate the two brakes and not getting full application to left/right brake may hinder the maneauverabillity some.

p1ngu666
06-19-2006, 08:55 AM
could mean the end of effective stick stiring http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif

one concern is planes like zero, that get stiff way early (even comapaired to irl) could be outturned at average speed by planes like 190 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/disagree.gif

the thought of more graceful movement is really nice tho, maybe bring planes with a edgy feel back to more realistic feel, eg most non slat planes http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

SeaFireLIV
06-19-2006, 09:03 AM
Well if it gets even closer to how pilots flew in the real WWII, I`m all for it.

Brain32
06-19-2006, 09:09 AM
If sensitivity gets toned down I think 109 will be interesting, hmmm, will we have enough elevator authority for a take of http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

leitmotiv
06-19-2006, 09:53 AM
Right, RxMan, I was trying to scoot around fast. Had I used the brakes the job would have been much easier!

justflyin
06-19-2006, 10:36 AM
Sniff, sniff....hmmm, I think I smell another new "skillz" separator on the horizon. I think I better head to the store for an ample supply of popcorn for when V4.06 is released.

I'm thinking this subject is going to make for some interesting reading. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

However, even after V4.06, the Aces will still be Aces, the Ace-Killers will still be Ace-Killers and as in every other change that has come in the past, the smart ones will still fly smartly.

Knowledge is power in this series. Be sure.

-HH-Quazi
06-19-2006, 12:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by heywooood:
all attempts to analyze what this control input change will mean to ingame flight control is pure conjecture and or paranoia....'gamers' fear it will affect 'scoring' zzzzzzzzz......

Best news from this is that Manchuria addon is close to release and thats a good thing Martha. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

-HH-Quazi
06-19-2006, 12:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by II_JG1_Falke:
You gotta be kidding me! Which pilots wishes? Not mine! And it's the first I've heard of a problem with the joy stick. I'm mean some one please show me a posts in any of the forums reporting such a problem. It must be one that I've totally missed!

With the exception of the up elevator locking up to soon and "IMHO" to drastically on the 109's, the planes handle better, at least on my CH Fighter Stick than ever before.

Now I'm going to have to freakin relearn things again? And I'll bet that stick control around the middle, when your trying to take aim is going to be a *****. That's one we finally got settled too. How much you want to bet everyone will be *****ing about that again.

Geeze Oleg, that's micro management gone berserk! I say leave it be and don't fix it if it ain't broke, the sim is basically fine as is.

I also noticed after reading the majority of the post linked above, that the settings would be useless, even dangerous for on-line play. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think WWSensei hit it right from his post on the first page after reading the post I quoted above.

Scen
06-19-2006, 02:48 PM
Sorry but this is a complete waste of time...

There are many other pressing issues that need addressing... Not in any particular order.

AI. They can do some of the most amazing manuevers without penalty. No blackouts see through clouds etc.

Damage Models on all planes. )Why do you lose aileron control for both wings when most if not all planes had redundant controls. It should be lose one side.) All around most air planes need to be looked at again from a whole.

Performances for some aircraft.
P38L Late is nothing close to the real numbers. Can't pull 4gs at 400mph like is says in the dive charts. I'm sure that list can grow with other peoples input backed up by proper documentation.

50 cals unsynced but rates on the right side are greater than left causing the continued yaw effect on most US planes.

Some maps need cleaning up as they cause all kinds of studder problems online.

Come on. Fix what's already in the game. No more new features. Just get going on the older problems. I remember when the muzzle flash issue wasn't fixable but it was in the long run.

WWMaxGunz
06-19-2006, 04:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
If sensitivity gets toned down I think 109 will be interesting, hmmm, will we have enough elevator authority for a take of http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Filter is not lowered control authority just a bit slower but faster than trim.
Just push your Filter sliders up to 6 or 8 and see if you don't fly smoother.

BfS_ReFleX
06-19-2006, 08:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Scen:
Sorry but this is a complete waste of time...

There are many other pressing issues that need addressing... Not in any particular order.

AI. They can do some of the most amazing manuevers without penalty. No blackouts see through clouds etc.

Damage Models on all planes. )Why do you lose aileron control for both wings when most if not all planes had redundant controls. It should be lose one side.) All around most air planes need to be looked at again from a whole.

Performances for some aircraft.
P38L Late is nothing close to the real numbers. Can't pull 4gs at 400mph like is says in the dive charts. I'm sure that list can grow with other peoples input backed up by proper documentation.

50 cals unsynced but rates on the right side are greater than left causing the continued yaw effect on most US planes.

Some maps need cleaning up as they cause all kinds of studder problems online.

Come on. Fix what's already in the game. No more new features. Just get going on the older problems. I remember when the muzzle flash issue wasn't fixable but it was in the long run. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Ditto!!!

LEBillfish
06-19-2006, 09:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BfS_ReFleX:
Ditto!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, that's a heck of a first post.....keep the info coming http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

jamesdietz
06-20-2006, 10:07 AM
Boonty=BAD!

LEBillfish
06-20-2006, 10:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jamesdietz:
Boonty=BAD! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why?......Not the ideal, but no problems here...

ElAurens
06-20-2006, 10:47 AM
If you guys think Boonty Box is bad I will relate my newest experience with the much touted "STEAM".

I logged onto Red Orchestra, and Steam updated itself. It also very adroitly installed over 400 (yes, I said 400) files and registry entrys on my machine. All were found and removed by Pareto Logic's Xoftspy. Boonty never did anything like that.

And you do realize that simply by logging on to this site UBI drops some tracking cookies on your machine.

karost
06-20-2006, 11:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Captain Brown's Settings
Pitch 0, 1, 3, 7, 9, 14, 18, 23, 27, 33
Roll 0, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 10, 12, 17
Yaw 0, 0, 1, 2, 5, 6, 8, 11, 14, 16
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

if we can delay a virtual stick slow down
but not limit degree of a full deflation, just keep it slow down when a plane's speed get fast.

"black out" is a funny thing happen all the time in DFServer to compromise turning advantage from a current joystick model design http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

in Captain Brown's Settings I can read a hiden message that

"in real life wwii pilot, they will not move a stick fast like we did in pc game...!"

in 4.06, are they will put a new joystick profile setup in a difficult setup ( server side) so every player will stand at the same rule in DFServer.

anywhere good to see "Captain Brown's Settings" issue come back again http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

S!

crazyivan1970
06-20-2006, 11:50 AM
I wish i could explain more guys. But....even that i have seen both add-ons, i havent had a chance to play it. I dont know what this function does. Oleg is out this week, i`ll find out more next week i guess. Or, maybe, add-on will come out and will clear things up.

Kwiatos
06-20-2006, 01:30 PM
Oleg has been out of here for long time not only these week http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

crazyivan1970
06-20-2006, 02:05 PM
As i said many times before Kwiatos: When Oleg has something to say, he will http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
BOB takes up all his time, be sure http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

VW-IceFire
06-20-2006, 03:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
If sensitivity gets toned down I think 109 will be interesting, hmmm, will we have enough elevator authority for a take of http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
This may actually be a boon for 109 pilots as they may feel this change less. Depends on how it all works.

A slower more graceful feel as pingu says would be ideal in my books. In some dogfight servers you see pilots who are way too edgy for WWII combat. I'd love to see them toned down a bit...flipping all over the sky like that. Air combat I think anyways should be more deliberate.

WWMaxGunz
06-20-2006, 06:58 PM
How does abuse by Steam justify Boonty? It is like politicians blaming the other side
for something every time they are caught doing wrong, and then everyone wants to act like
nothing happened. Stupid human tricks, roll over and play dead.

What part of no I don't want that task running on my machine is so hard to understand?
THIS TIME there is a way around. Make enough excuses and next time there are less sales.
Bottom line.

sledgehammer2
06-20-2006, 07:02 PM
Crazy Ivan,

can you tell us if anything has been done on tweaking the AI? I know you are probably sick of hearing about it but it would make me incredibly happy to hear that Oleg plans to address this. I have tried to be a positive member of the community over the years but as I have said many times with the current AI I don't find flying (I am strictly an offliner) nearly as enjoyable.

Can you shed any light on this?

Thanks

Sledgehammer2

TheKingofStyle
06-21-2006, 05:31 PM
I'll just echo some of the same things that have been said before. Why do we keep getting new features when the old features are broken? The AI still do all kinds of crazy things, the 50 cals are desynched but still cause yaw, the P38 compressibility stuff, the list goes on . . .

C'mon, fix the old stuff THEN give us new stuff!

VW-IceFire
06-21-2006, 05:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheKingofStyle:
I'll just echo some of the same things that have been said before. Why do we keep getting new features when the old features are broken? The AI still do all kinds of crazy things, the 50 cals are desynched but still cause yaw, the P38 compressibility stuff, the list goes on . . .

C'mon, fix the old stuff THEN give us new stuff! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Some features you can't fix...others may silently be fixed. Depends on if the community can effectively communicate with the developer or not.

Scen
06-21-2006, 06:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheKingofStyle:
I'll just echo some of the same things that have been said before. Why do we keep getting new features when the old features are broken? The AI still do all kinds of crazy things, the 50 cals are desynched but still cause yaw, the P38 compressibility stuff, the list goes on . . .

C'mon, fix the old stuff THEN give us new stuff! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh and for free too... I don't need an addon to fix what needs fixen know what I mean? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Urufu_Shinjiro
06-22-2006, 10:54 AM
And while your at it oleg send me a million US dollars. I know you can do it because everyone here seems to think you're a maricle worker and that everything is out of the infinite kindness of your heart.


P.S. For those that can't tell, that was sarcasm....

HayateAce
06-22-2006, 11:35 AM
So maybe we will finally see more realistic flight from the Fb109. Perhaps the true historical advantages of the P51D can be simulated in oleg's game.

Thanks Oleg, maybe.

http://www.web-birds.com/8th/339/gun/r59-15.jpg

Scen
06-22-2006, 11:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Urufu_Shinjiro:
And while your at it oleg send me a million US dollars. I know you can do it because everyone here seems to think you're a maricle worker and that everything is out of the infinite kindness of your heart.


P.S. For those that can't tell, that was sarcasm.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm not sure if you're paying attention but the AI has been wacked since 4.04. If you haven't you should fly against some AI planes and tell it shouldn't be fixed.

Also you're missing the point. Instead of giving us addons such as planes and maps why not just fix what's already been given to us.

Scen
06-22-2006, 11:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheKingofStyle:
I'll just echo some of the same things that have been said before. Why do we keep getting new features when the old features are broken? The AI still do all kinds of crazy things, the 50 cals are desynched but still cause yaw, the P38 compressibility stuff, the list goes on . . .

C'mon, fix the old stuff THEN give us new stuff! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Some features you can't fix...others may silently be fixed. Depends on if the community can effectively communicate with the developer or not. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some features you can fix? Hmm Like the muzzle flashes? Come on man they are the developer they can fix what they want. Also others may be silently fixed but at a cost my friend. You have to pay to get the fixes which should already be there. Stop adding stuff and fix what's there

LEBillfish
06-22-2006, 01:00 PM
Odd, AI works good for me though thought they were AWESOME a patch or two before.....4.04 made the team tactics go out the window.....AI was really a threat, couldn't tell they weren't live pilots.

VFS-22_SPaRX
06-22-2006, 01:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Scen:

Hmm not sure if you're paying attention but the AI has been wacked since 4.04. If you haven't you should fly against some AI planes and tell it shouldn't be fixed.

Also you're missing the point. Instead of giving us addons such as planes and maps why not just fix what's already been given to us. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then roll back to 4.03 or whatever version of the game that you were happy with. The version that you bought was 3.0. As far as they are concerned the ONLY fixes they are required to fix are those that were introduced by THAT version. Infact the last Offical patch for PF was 3.04. Oleg stated many times that 4.00 and beyond would be considered Betas as they are testing features for BOB. So everything after 4.00 are beta PATCHES. They are not offical patch by anymeans. It is up to your discression if you wish to install them. With betas come bugs. With new beta releases come bug fixes and more bugs. Welcome to the beta testing world.

Now. Someone is gonna say... what about 4.05 its a paid addon. Yes you are correct. And if there were show stopping bugs in 4.05, then Oleg would be responsible for releasing a patch to fix the bugs. As no show stopping bugs were reported no interim patch is released. This starting to make some sense?

To sum up. Your PURCHASE is supported up to 3.04. Any patchs/addons you have installed since then to the current 4.05 are beta Patches. 4.05 is a supported PURCHASED version as will be 4.06 and 4.07. If there are any show stopping bugs reported in those versions, you can rest assured that Oleg will fix them. Also think of it this way, Oleg added many aircraft in versions 4.01-4.04 as a THANK YOU for testing his new versions for him as all the input given to him by so many people does nothing but IMPROVE this sim 100x over.

justflyin
06-22-2006, 02:00 PM
Well, with that said, then the bugs that still exist in V4.05 should be fixed for free then, as we are back to paying for an add-on.

Regardless if it was built onto "beta" patches. There are several showstoppers, maybe not from the perspective of your dogfight server, but one man's "meh, who cares" is another man's showstopper, like AI that doesn't follow orders or Spitfires and other planes exploding on take-off with drop tanks loaded. And there are several more showstoppers for others.

These issues are critical to co-ops, online wars and offline players. I think you're slightly downplaying their importance too much.

Scen
06-22-2006, 03:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VFS-22_SPaRX:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Scen:

Hmm not sure if you're paying attention but the AI has been wacked since 4.04. If you haven't you should fly against some AI planes and tell it shouldn't be fixed.

Also you're missing the point. Instead of giving us addons such as planes and maps why not just fix what's already been given to us. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then roll back to 4.03 or whatever version of the game that you were happy with. The version that you bought was 3.0. As far as they are concerned the ONLY fixes they are required to fix are those that were introduced by THAT version. Infact the last Offical patch for PF was 3.04. Oleg stated many times that 4.00 and beyond would be considered Betas as they are testing features for BOB. So everything after 4.00 are beta PATCHES. They are not offical patch by anymeans. It is up to your discression if you wish to install them. With betas come bugs. With new beta releases come bug fixes and more bugs. Welcome to the beta testing world.

Now. Someone is gonna say... what about 4.05 its a paid addon. Yes you are correct. And if there were show stopping bugs in 4.05, then Oleg would be responsible for releasing a patch to fix the bugs. As no show stopping bugs were reported no interim patch is released. This starting to make some sense?

To sum up. Your PURCHASE is supported up to 3.04. Any patchs/addons you have installed since then to the current 4.05 are beta Patches. 4.05 is a supported PURCHASED version as will be 4.06 and 4.07. If there are any show stopping bugs reported in those versions, you can rest assured that Oleg will fix them. Also think of it this way, Oleg added many aircraft in versions 4.01-4.04 as a THANK YOU for testing his new versions for him as all the input given to him by so many people does nothing but IMPROVE this sim 100x over. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wonderful and complete explaination of something I already knew... I did purchase 4.05 and the same bugs still apply. Sparx you can't compare your online experiences with offline. The AI is completely silly which makes flying COOPs or single player unacceptable.

So my option is to go back to an older version say 3.04 I will have even more problems say like Muzzle flashes and synced 50s incomplete plane sets for the Pacific theatre etc. Sorry but I will still be very unhappy. Don't be fooled by the next bright and shinny thing my friend. They should have fixed the issues first before adding more content like planes and maps as thank yous.

As it stands now I have 4.05m and there are problems so where are my free fixes. Nope I have to pay for yet another addon 4.06 and cross my fingers some the major issues/show stoppers like AI are fixed. Ever seen a zeke fly negative Gs in outside turn and out turn you? Every flown with AI bombers before?

Also my other option is to fly an older version and not be able to play online considering most servers are &gt;4.04

crazyivan1970
06-22-2006, 03:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sledgehammer2:
Crazy Ivan,

can you tell us if anything has been done on tweaking the AI? I know you are probably sick of hearing about it but it would make me incredibly happy to hear that Oleg plans to address this. I have tried to be a positive member of the community over the years but as I have said many times with the current AI I don't find flying (I am strictly an offliner) nearly as enjoyable.

Can you shed any light on this?

Thanks

Sledgehammer2 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not aware of any changes in AI department Sledgehammer. Very possible that something has changed. I simply dont know. As i said, i`v seen contents of the addon...planes, maps etc. But i havent had a chance to try it. When time comes, we will all know http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

aklabo
06-22-2006, 04:54 PM
Instead of giving us addons such as planes and maps why not just fix what's already been given to us.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gifSCEN totaly agree with you .
Klabo_71st http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

MrMojok
06-22-2006, 05:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by justflyin:
However, even after V4.06, the Aces will still be Aces, the Ace-Killers will still be Ace-Killers.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But what will RayBan Jockey be?

aklabo
06-22-2006, 05:36 PM
Hi again
I allso like thouse ships . 2x 250 kg bombs smoke all over ship and AA guners fireing like nothing happen http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif(alliens) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

sledgehammer2
06-22-2006, 08:20 PM
Well Ivan, thanks for replying, but that is seriously depressing if there is no change.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Prop_Strike
06-23-2006, 12:06 AM
Crazyivan.....could you please ask Oleg what the stick force changes will mean for people like me who already have an extended stick.

I extended my Evo Force by 10 inches and it already feels like a real aircraft's throw.

I hope it wont make my stick feel like a wet noodle!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

WOLFMondo
06-23-2006, 05:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by II_JG1_Falke:
You gotta be kidding me! Which pilots wishes? Not mine! And it's the first I've heard of a problem with the joy stick. I'm mean some one please show me a posts in any of the forums reporting such a problem. It must be one that I've totally missed!

With the exception of the up elevator locking up to soon and "IMHO" to drastically on the 109's, the planes handle better, at least on my CH Fighter Stick than ever before.

Now I'm going to have to freakin relearn things again? And I'll bet that stick control around the middle, when your trying to take aim is going to be a *****. That's one we finally got settled too. How much you want to bet everyone will be *****ing about that again.

Geeze Oleg, that's micro management gone berserk! I say leave it be and don't fix it if it ain't broke, the sim is basically fine as is.

I also noticed after reading the majority of the post linked above, that the settings would be useless, even dangerous for on-line play. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You clearly missed the bit about default curves.

WOLFMondo
06-23-2006, 05:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Well if it gets even closer to how pilots flew in the real WWII, I`m all for it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

1000% agreed! I can see some people complaining about it though. Ah well.

justflyin
06-23-2006, 08:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MrMojok:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by justflyin:
However, even after V4.06, the Aces will still be Aces, the Ace-Killers will still be Ace-Killers.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But what will RayBan Jockey be? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

MIA?!?

Actually, I still feel his presence in the Force. He is near. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

WWMaxGunz
06-23-2006, 09:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Well if it gets even closer to how pilots flew in the real WWII, I`m all for it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

1000% agreed! I can see some people complaining about it though. Ah well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If there are people who no longer have fine control just because their speed changes by 5%
then just maybe there will be complaints. Trim is only for force adjustment and you should
be able to fly the same by holding the stick steady.

What will be good to see is people unable to snap from one extreme to another as if the
planes are light aerobatics models with large controls surfaces flying at moderate speeds.

What gives me concern is chances of side effects to the change not corrected. Due to the
hardware itself there cannot be the real thing, there are side effects in every system.
Will the new change only dampen what is not desired without introducing something new?
Took me long enough the first time to learn enough how it works before I was able to get
around serious easy bleed and stall problems by raising sliders, and I move the stick
slowly. Now something else that is not said, I am reminded of the trim fix and the side
effects of that at least for keyboard/button trimmers and only recently some taming of it.
I have trimmed planes in flight, trim stops when I stop trimming, does not keep going.
No plane I ever heard of requires me to guess how long to hold a switch for correct trim,
every time by electric or hand wheel the changes occur while I trim and I can feel when
to stop while holding the nose where desired.

crazyivan1970
06-23-2006, 03:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sledgehammer2:
Well Ivan, thanks for replying, but that is seriously depressing if there is no change.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


То²?Ñ€¸Ñ", нµ ¿?´?'Ñ"µ Ñ€?ньшµ ²Ñ"сÑ"Ñ€µл? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Shtraib
06-23-2006, 03:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazyivan1970:

То²?Ñ€¸Ñ", нµ ¿?´?'Ñ"µ Ñ€?ньшµ ²Ñ"сÑ"Ñ€µл? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
žœ ´?л лÑŽ´Ñм н?Ñ€ºоÑ"¸º, ¿о´об¸ÑŽ ºоÑ"оÑ€о³о µÑˆо нµ бÑ"ло http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

crazyivan1970
06-23-2006, 03:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Shtraib:
žœ ´?л лÑŽ´Ñм н?Ñ€ºоÑ"¸º, ¿о´об¸ÑŽ ºоÑ"оÑ€о³о µÑˆо нµ бÑ"ло http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

sledgehammer2
06-23-2006, 04:50 PM
Sorry Ivan, I don't speak Russian. And I didn't say what I said to be one of the proverbial whiners, but I can't deny how I honestly feel about a sim that has been a large part of my recreational life for so long.

Regards,
Sledgehammer2 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

VW-IceFire
06-23-2006, 05:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Scen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheKingofStyle:
I'll just echo some of the same things that have been said before. Why do we keep getting new features when the old features are broken? The AI still do all kinds of crazy things, the 50 cals are desynched but still cause yaw, the P38 compressibility stuff, the list goes on . . .

C'mon, fix the old stuff THEN give us new stuff! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Some features you can't fix...others may silently be fixed. Depends on if the community can effectively communicate with the developer or not. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some features you can fix? Hmm Like the muzzle flashes? Come on man they are the developer they can fix what they want. Also others may be silently fixed but at a cost my friend. You have to pay to get the fixes which should already be there. Stop adding stuff and fix what's there </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
They didn't fix the muzzle flashes till they did PF and then obviously they were pulling apart enough code for it to make a difference.

Whats the problem with paying for new stuff and some fixes? Thats not anything new in the world of gaming. I don't even see it as an injustice. The game works and works well...its not like you have to pay money for it to be stable because its crashing or something. You just want it to be better and thats what getting addons and extras is about.

AI isn't as bad as some of you make it out to be. I play single player and I develop missions FOR single player so I'm in that area of experience. The AI cheats and its a bit whacked sometimes but its not over the top.

Kuna_
06-23-2006, 06:23 PM
Reading many posts about how Ai is stupid I must admit that it is unknown to me why we waited for five years to start major complain run now. When it is too late I'm afraid.

It's not like Ai has been changed in some revolutionery way somewhere on the FB developmet road, it is add or take a bit, just as good (bad) as it ever was.

And I think it wont change for the better... no way it will be maybe just t0ned down in skill in best case scenario.

But while we are still in that "whining" against Ai boat, this should be urged by majority of players to be the last big change in game if possible. Game will benefit 100 times more than with 100 new flyable playes.
If it is possible to make it better, that is ($$).

Anyhow waiting for that v406. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Joystick control input was changed in accordance with pilots' wishes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I look forward to that also. I presume of course that it will be more "user friendly" from now on.

sledgehammer2
06-23-2006, 07:56 PM
Precisely Kuna. Simply toning it down is all I am hoping for. I know that at this point we aren't gonna reinvent the wheel and I have never asked for that. Like others have said I would just like it tweaked.... to where you can at least catch up to your enemy!

Bearcat99
06-23-2006, 09:38 PM
Even in it's current state.. which sometimes leaves a bit to be desired.. and frankly sometimes blows me away... because I have had the dumb AI and the AI wingman who actually watches my 6... and I have had enemy AI with the dumb wingman... and I was able to nail them both... and the real wingman.. who when I went for his leader he actually broke and circled back and either shot me down or made me back off.... so it is a crapshoot to some extent.... but this AI is the best we have had.. the most challenging... and the best in any other sim I have flow in....

shinden1974
06-24-2006, 01:15 AM
I think the major problems we AI whiners have were hashed out in the first few pages of the big thread started by seafire a while back...now the whole thing has been obscured with all of the silly little AI nitnoid garbage that nobody cared about in the first place, such as the 360 degree vision and idiot wing behavior...these have always been with us and I don't really care.

I'm not owed anything, I simply ask for the AI to obey a FEW of the rules I have to and I really want the bug in the USN guns fixed. not getting the first isn't the end of the world, I'll live with it. Not getting second simply means 4.06 will be my last purchase from 1C till BOB...big deal. I don't think Oleg will lose any sleep.

Honestly I can't figure out what some are screaming about, there's f'ing ENGINE VARIANTS IN THE SIM!! and everybody acts like that's the way all WWII flight sims have been done for ages! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

damage models? correct loadouts? a f'ing light in the panel having proper placement? Control stick length? are you guy f'ing kidding me? I still remember when the control surfaces didn't even move in a flight sim, I remember f'ing HIT BUBBLES!!!! that meant you fired at some peice of sky above the enemy and shot him down! HIgh fidelity 3d cockpits are still new, even Falcon 4:AF still doesn't 'quite' have one!

Just get the corsair, hellcat and wildcat to fly straight while shooting, you know like the USAF planes with same weaponry already do...and I'll be happy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ...rant off.

R_Target
06-24-2006, 02:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by shinden1974:
Just get the corsair, hellcat and wildcat to fly straight while shooting, you know like the USAF planes with same weaponry already do...and I'll be happy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ...rant off. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ditto.

onebox33
06-24-2006, 06:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Hopefully, this could mean that AI may return to less frenetic mad manouevers, since Humans won`t be able to do them.... If I understand right. Otherwise, AI will be literally ufos around us. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
a.i., every a.i. of every games uses tricks to compete with humans...i don't feel a.i. ace a ufo, turn off only engine overheat and if you have a track-ir and pedals...it is just challanging

heywooood
06-25-2006, 09:56 AM
2 more weeks, be sure?