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View Full Version : What do YOU find so fun about dogfighting?



Noxx0s
03-04-2010, 12:04 AM
For me it's the infinite options and variables of aerial combat. Compared to a shooter game (and I do love me some Red Orchestra, but that's another thread http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif), there's just way more things you and your opponent can do. It makes it so it just-doesn't-get-old.

You never know what's gonna happen. That's what I love about it.

Noxx0s
03-04-2010, 12:04 AM
For me it's the infinite options and variables of aerial combat. Compared to a shooter game (and I do love me some Red Orchestra, but that's another thread http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif), there's just way more things you and your opponent can do. It makes it so it just-doesn't-get-old.

You never know what's gonna happen. That's what I love about it.

Stingray333
03-04-2010, 01:40 AM
My personality type is such that I typically like things until I master them, then onto the next challenge.

Given that I've played for two years, bought some aerobatics books and books on fighter combat, and still get my *** handed to me whenever I go online, I am far, far from the point of being bored with this.

Noxx0s
03-04-2010, 02:23 AM
What books if I might ask?

M_Gunz
03-04-2010, 02:50 AM
When the shots connect, and it doesn't matter how.
Kill counts... piffle. When it's happenin, it's happenin.

Avivion
03-04-2010, 03:47 AM
For me, it's aerobatics and fighting and the art of it all that make dogfighting such an ever-green thrill. IMHO, it beats flat-out so many other sports !!

thefruitbat
03-04-2010, 03:50 AM
because its like chess on speed.

Choctaw111
03-04-2010, 04:18 AM
You never see the same things twice.
Every sortie I was always wondering what would happen and that alone is quite a thrill.
Getting an adrenaline rush from a computer game never happens to me, except for Il2 online dogfights.

rnzoli
03-04-2010, 05:26 AM
Nothing. Dogfighting isn't come close to any fun.

You can see infinite variations of only 2 basic situations - advantage or disadvantage.
If you go against a better pilot, you will lose 9 out of 10 and it gets frustrating, if you go against a worse pilot, you will win 9 out of 10, waste of time.

Most ridiculous is that dogfight servers are loaded pretty well with dogfighters looking for a weaker opponent to beat up, but leave if a a bigger name is in the arena. Pathetic.

But each to his own. A lot of people who can think beyond dogfighting (tactics, online wars, team work) step over this phase in a few months time and find more persistent interests, be that skinning, mission/campaign building, hardware making, co-op missions, online wars, mods, server administration etc. That's where the long-term fun begins with IL-2. The rest wear off fast.

kimosabi79
03-04-2010, 06:07 AM
Aircraft control and energy management, mostly. Fighting against opponents that DOESN'T use padlock and sits nicely in their cockpits.

Skoshi Tiger
03-04-2010, 06:47 AM
Well, I'm a pacifist at heart and don't really like airplanes, but until someone decides to make a dedicated Parachute simulator it the qickest way to get to the fun part of the game! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BillSwagger
03-04-2010, 06:51 AM
I like engaging multiple opponents or dodging as many as i can before i get shot down. I don't intend to put myself in those situations but the nature of online multilayer is that many players often chase down one opponent. If i go 10-20 minutes with 3 or 4 planes chasing me from various angles then it makes for a good time, win or lose.

I also like bouncing with 50 caliber guns. I've used cannons but for some reason there is more adrenaline involved using 50 calibers, especially in the P-47. I think its because it requires a pint point shot at 500+IAS which adds to the difficulty.

I've enjoyed other FPS games but never to this extent. There is something about flying that has always intrigued me. I know its still a game, but i think its the closest way to get a feel for what combat must've been like. I'm sure if military past had access to such a game or sim to help train their pilots they would've used something like this.

Bill

ROXunreal
03-04-2010, 07:36 AM
I just like tearing someone's plane apart http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif Especially if it's a better player or in a better plane

Jumoschwanz
03-04-2010, 08:38 AM
I don't like dogfighting in general, especially in a duel vs. the same plane type, it is just an awful lot of time and work to achieve an end.

It is good to know how to dogfight so that if you screw up and get into trouble you may be able to get out, so practice it now and then.

I would rather just Z&B someone, destroy them with one pass and be on my way.

Historically, WWI aces felt the same way. Who would want to risk their life and tire themselves out when it was not needed?

So, when I fly online, I like to go on hard-settings servers, look at the maps and mission brief, decide where to put my aircraft where I may be able to surprise a foe and then do just that over and over until my ammo or fuel is gone, then go home in one piece.

It is also nice to have a wingman, then you have one more way to avoid a dogfight when he shoots the hostile off your long six.

So, learn how to handle your aircraft, but if you think that it is going to make you successful flying on a historical map and mission on hard settings you are going to find out that it means very little.
This after someone hits you that you never see coming and goes on their way as you are falling to the ground in flames missing a wing.

It is just one part of the puzzle.

Stingray333
03-04-2010, 09:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by IcyScythe:
What books if I might ask? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Better Aerobatics (Vol 1) by Alan Cassady and
Fighter Combat by Robert Shaw

Also read a bunch of online pdf books written about aircombat, and a ton of old novels on the WW2 airwar.

Erkki_M
03-04-2010, 09:35 AM
Dogfighting is waste of time. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

F16_Neo
03-04-2010, 09:45 AM
I found out lately that I seldom dogfight per se, I seem to try to sneak into sixes nowadays.

I'm usually toast in the mad turning swirling furball.

One of the fun parts about getting online kills is that, in that moment, someone, somewhere, is just as mad as I am when I get pwnd http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

Sillius_Sodus
03-04-2010, 10:18 AM
Crush you enemies, drive them before you, and hear the lamentations of their women.

Ooops, never mind, different game http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

RegRag1977
03-04-2010, 10:50 AM
What i like the most is my first attack and what happens right after, especially when i miss.

I engage with altitude and energy advantage for one or two attacks maximum then extend away with what is left of my speed advantage. At this moment i love to see the enemy immediately sitting on my six trying to close in vain, probably believing he's going to get me. This lasts a few seconds, and then my wingman's shells start to impact on him.

This is thrilling http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif .

What is also excellent is loose deuce action, when everything works perfectly, when it is like my wingman and i can read in each other mind without too much radio communication.

RegRag1977
03-04-2010, 10:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erkki_M:
Dogfighting is waste of time. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree, to me Dogfighting is a synonym for chaos...nothing good comes from dogfighting. Often in this sim it is also a synonym for greed.

Lots of pilots look like Gordon Gekko, they just can help it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7upG01-XWbY

Not forgetting greed for kills http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Urufu_Shinjiro
03-04-2010, 11:52 AM
My favorite time when dogfighting is when I'm against an equal opponent, with equal energy. Either him behind me or me behind him, doesn't matter, but when the chase is ON, right on their six but can't get the shot off, he's trying to throw me off with every maneuver in the book but I'm still on him, and vica-versa, trying my best to get him off my tail and trying out maneuver him to get on his tail. There's a moment in there where the two of you are in perfect sync, where you're almost one. Every move you make he counters, every move he makes you counter, simultaneously. I love it when you disengage at the same time and try for a different tact, only to have him counter you perfectly and vica-versa and end up right back in the chase. Man it's a rush.

Noxx0s
03-04-2010, 12:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
Nothing. Dogfighting isn't come close to any fun.

You can see infinite variations of only 2 basic situations - advantage or disadvantage.
If you go against a better pilot, you will lose 9 out of 10 and it gets frustrating, if you go against a worse pilot, you will win 9 out of 10, waste of time.

Most ridiculous is that dogfight servers are loaded pretty well with dogfighters looking for a weaker opponent to beat up, but leave if a a bigger name is in the arena. Pathetic.

But each to his own. A lot of people who can think beyond dogfighting (tactics, online wars, team work) step over this phase in a few months time and find more persistent interests, be that skinning, mission/campaign building, hardware making, co-op missions, online wars, mods, server administration etc. That's where the long-term fun begins with IL-2. The rest wear off fast. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well that's a pretty negative attitude. Why do you assume we're even talking about dogfight servers? I'm not a fan of those either with the (usually) arcade settings, mixed plane sides, etc. Let me ask you this... do you ever dogfight in coop missions and online wars? (I'm involved in both heavily btw) Do you ever dogfight when you're flying with a wingman and using "tactics"? Or maybe you only enjoy the administrative/strategic aspects of it, in which case you'd probably be better off wargaming.

And if you prefer making skins and working with hardware to playing the game the skins and hardware are FOR, well, I guess I really don't understand you http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And I'm not sure why people keep assuming BnZing does not fall under dogfighting... I think it's just dogfighting in the vertical vs. horizontal no? If you prefer, just change it to "aerial combat". Unless you guys really all just prefer flying around at cruising speed looking at the scenery to blowing other planes up!

ROXunreal
03-04-2010, 01:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Urufu_Shinjiro:
My favorite time when dogfighting is when I'm against an equal opponent, with equal energy. Either him behind me or me behind him, doesn't matter, but when the chase is ON, right on their six but can't get the shot off, he's trying to throw me off with every maneuver in the book but I'm still on him, and vica-versa, trying my best to get him off my tail and trying out maneuver him to get on his tail. There's a moment in there where the two of you are in perfect sync, where you're almost one. Every move you make he counters, every move he makes you counter, simultaneously. I love it when you disengage at the same time and try for a different tact, only to have him counter you perfectly and vica-versa and end up right back in the chase. Man it's a rush. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just yesterday I had an amazing getaway from a Lavochkin in my 190 on the desert map with the river canyon in the middle. I just flew low at high speed and he followed, using my roll rate to trick him that I'm turning in another direction then quickly alter direction and buy myself some 150 meters distance from him again, flying around the canyon landscape using the actual canyon cliffs to shelter me from his line of sight, then quickly changing direction again before he comes into sight. I'm surprised I managed to fly around on the deck for so long and not bleeding too much speed from the 190, in the end the La was shot down by one of my own, and I was in turn shot down by some other aircraft that was obviously also following our pursuit.
amazing times.

Bremspropeller
03-04-2010, 02:19 PM
What fun?

I take more satisfaction in dropping bombs people and blowing stuff up.

Jabo-pilot = teh antichrist http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Romanator21
03-04-2010, 03:40 PM
It seems that all the time in online fights I end up with a jerry on my tail. No matter the plane, or energy advantage, or even if I bounce him first, it must seem like enjoy losing.

So the most satisfying part for me is to run his ammo dry http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Double points for doing it in a slower or less maneuverable plane. Triple points for making it back to base afterwords.

thefruitbat
03-04-2010, 04:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by IcyScythe:

And I'm not sure why people keep assuming BnZing does not fall under dogfighting... I think it's just dogfighting in the vertical vs. horizontal no? If you prefer, just change it to "aerial combat". Unless you guys really all just prefer flying around at cruising speed looking at the scenery to blowing other planes up! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because they are snobs, and think they are superior.

Gunz got it dead right,

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
When the shots connect, and it doesn't matter how.
Kill counts... piffle. When it's happenin, it's happenin. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

kimosabi79
03-04-2010, 05:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Urufu_Shinjiro:
My favorite time when dogfighting is when I'm against an equal opponent, with equal energy. Either him behind me or me behind him, doesn't matter, but when the chase is ON, right on their six but can't get the shot off, he's trying to throw me off with every maneuver in the book but I'm still on him, and vica-versa, trying my best to get him off my tail and trying out maneuver him to get on his tail. There's a moment in there where the two of you are in perfect sync, where you're almost one. Every move you make he counters, every move he makes you counter, simultaneously. I love it when you disengage at the same time and try for a different tact, only to have him counter you perfectly and vica-versa and end up right back in the chase. Man it's a rush. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't know you were such a romantic fellow, Urufu? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Yeah, I agree though, dogfighting against opponents you know(kinda) and respect, while flying close to full switch or even full, is far greater than getting hammered by a bunch of guys flying in superman mode that disconnects as soon as you get the first strike or they notice that you're about to out turn them.

I remember going up against Fruitbat in a Hellcat and I was in a Zero a couple of weeks ago at approx. 3k meters. Great turnfight initially and it ended with no kills from either, only a few strikes, and Fruitbat used the aircrafts advantage to avoid me approaching his six. That's knowing your aircraft and that's what is the most exciting part of it IMO. Being able to use the aircrafts performance envelope to your advantage and also seeing others do the same.

triad773
03-04-2010, 05:05 PM
I find a good dogfight (for me) consists of
- a good fight of some length,
- taking some hits,
- giving better then I get (enough to see the ground strike of the opponent http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif ),
- limping home with just enough life to set my craft down gently on the tarmac http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Even if I lose my ars, it can still be fun when it is a close competition http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

It doesn't happen too often that way, but when it does, it's worth it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

wolf-striked
03-04-2010, 06:58 PM
Playing on Warclouds awhile back.A type pilot from there was killing me with ease.And week by week as I improved and got closer and closer toat least getting close to having him lined up he would message me that I was improving.I thought that was very kool of him.And finally when I reached a level to battle with him.He was then using all the FW190 tactics like running away like a sissy and reengaging when he felt like it.

One night I finally managed to take him down.He even acknowleges it with a ~S~ towards me.The second time in same night I get him with this lucky(?)high deflection shot that I knew would hit somehow and he then says that now I am scaring him.Haha that was too kool.I forget his name though sadly. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Frankthetank36
03-04-2010, 09:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:
I don't like dogfighting in general, especially in a duel vs. the same plane type, it is just an awful lot of time and work to achieve an end.

It is good to know how to dogfight so that if you screw up and get into trouble you may be able to get out, so practice it now and then.

I would rather just Z&B someone, destroy them with one pass and be on my way.

Historically, WWI aces felt the same way. Who would want to risk their life and tire themselves out when it was not needed?

So, when I fly online, I like to go on hard-settings servers, look at the maps and mission brief, decide where to put my aircraft where I may be able to surprise a foe and then do just that over and over until my ammo or fuel is gone, then go home in one piece.

It is also nice to have a wingman, then you have one more way to avoid a dogfight when he shoots the hostile off your long six.

So, learn how to handle your aircraft, but if you think that it is going to make you successful flying on a historical map and mission on hard settings you are going to find out that it means very little.
This after someone hits you that you never see coming and goes on their way as you are falling to the ground in flames missing a wing.

It is just one part of the puzzle. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with most of this, but I wouldn't really say that I don't LIKE dogfighting; in a one-on-one situation, it can be an absolute blast. However, I find it to generally be counter-productive. It is one thing if you are flying a Zero or something and just can't build the energy to properly BnZ, but with most other planes I only get into a turn fight if my plane has superior turning capability and the other guy has an energy advantage, or can chase me down with a faster plane if I break off. It is just too easy to get fixated on the target and get shot down by his wingmen, or to scan the skies and lose track of the original target. It was Hartmann who said that dogfighting was "a waste of time", and I tend to agree with him. That being said, I usually fly ground attack planes, and when I don't, I prefer fighters that can really pick up speed in a dive.

na85
03-04-2010, 10:20 PM
While it's definitely a good way to get shot down due to poor SA, I find close-in knife fights to be by far the most exciting. I like to get up close and personal with my opponents.

Waldo.Pepper
03-04-2010, 10:42 PM
"What do YOU find so fun about dogfighting?"

I don't!

I find it far more satisfying be wise/clever/sneaky enough to rig the fight and to sneak up on an unsuspecting prey aircraft and disintegrate it with a sparse amount of ammo. My three most satisfying memories are of a hapless D9 (when I was in a Mossie). A Storch (when I was in a Tempest), and a Tu-2 (when flying a Me-262)

Bits everywhere. Good times. (Thank's Oleg.)

rnzoli
03-05-2010, 06:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by IcyScythe:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
Nothing. [...] </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well that's a pretty negative attitude. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Are you trying to say that some of us have an attitude problem due to not liking fighter-to-fighter air combat? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Excuse me while I smile http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Let me ask you this... do you ever dogfight in coop missions and online wars? (I'm involved in both heavily btw) Do you ever dogfight when you're flying with a wingman and using "tactics"? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Very rarely to be honest, only when totally unavoidable. In case I'm involved in air-to-air engagements, these are the most typical scenarios:
- escorting or intercepting air-to-ground (bomber, ground attack) flights
- free hunt and sweeps
- armed recon.
None of these lend themselves to extensive fighter-to-fighter combat, because fighter-to-fighter engagements are purely side-products of the overall mission/campaign goals, not the goal itself. Fighter-to-fighter combat doesn't seem to influence directly the outcome of any military operation.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Or maybe you only enjoy the administrative/strategic aspects of it, in which case you'd probably be better off wargaming. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Not really. Try to think of yourself as a flight leader or a squadron CO. YOu get the mission goals, and then you have to plot your ingress/egress routes, consider the weather and the things your enemy can throw at you. When you did that, you hop into the #1 plane and fly the mission... and see how it goes! It is quite interesting how your view changes about fighter-to-fighter engagements, when the weight of responsibility for all the flight/squadron rests on your shoulders - you don't want to take risk, just ensure maximum destruction with minimum cost in airframes/pilot losses.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">And if you prefer making skins and working with hardware to playing the game the skins and hardware are FOR, well, I guess I really don't understand you http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I prefer not to be tied down to a single aspect of this game, when it can offer so much other, connected fun as well.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Unless you guys really all just prefer flying around at cruising speed looking at the scenery to blowing other planes up! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Military operations have to be won on the ground. Blowing a plane up is exciting http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif but it looks more like selfish plasure, when you consider the historical circumstances. No offence, of course because this is a game, I like to take a plane out and just have a bit of careless swing against other fighters, friends or AI or both. But that's only a practice. I can't remember too many real fighter pilosts, who loved dogfighting - this was mostly typical to Germans in the beginning of the war, and the Americans at the end of the war. For way too obvious reasons, and I mentioned it already - only 2 basic scenarios exist in fighter-to-fighter combat: advantage or disadvantage. Boring like hell, if you have to do it for prolonged times.

MosDef2006
03-05-2010, 02:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by thefruitbat:
because its like chess on speed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Man couldn't have said it better...

Whats gets me though, is the amount negativity in a thread that was simply asking really what do you like about online air combat i think. instead we got all this.." I don't dogfight i zoom and boom" and i hate those kinds of servers" and all this bullcrap...Why did ya'll even come into this thread is you feel that way?

Man...Zoom and Boom, Energy, Full real whatever..a good dogfighter knows how to employ all of those tactics in a fight..and I love it ALL..If anything, just the thrill of the hunt and engaging and killing another thinking person online regardless of their skill level is the rush for me..

Funny thing is..normally, the person who b!@$h's about "those kinds of servers" usually SUCKS in those kinds of servers; they are limited because they can't do anything without coms and teams(not that there's anything wrong with that ;-)..i can conquer in all...but different strokes...i'm not gonna knock you if you like those boring full real servers

K_Freddie
03-06-2010, 05:51 AM
DF or whatever it is... I enjoy of using the 'so-called impossible' to outwit my opponents.

It gets better when one comes up against a better opponent where after a good 5 minutes or so, one goes down or you both leave the scene full of holes.

looking at the scenery is also enjoyable.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

ElAurens
03-06-2010, 09:00 AM
I always enjoyed bringing down late war uber planes with the obsolete stuff I normally like to fly. (See sig pic).

Very satisfying to see a 109 K4 go down in a heap and see the pilot leave the server after the all too predictable "cheater" in the chat bar...

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Bremspropeller
03-06-2010, 10:33 AM
ElAurens - cr@p-plane Ace since 1909 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Ballistic4N6
03-06-2010, 11:02 AM
Its like a 3D Chess Match, that has extreem gameplay speed changes, and where there can be multiple exchanges of "Check" before the final "Check-mate"!

rnzoli
03-06-2010, 05:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MosDef2006:
Whats gets me though, is the amount negativity in a thread that was simply asking really what do you like about online air combat i think. instead we got all this.." I don't dogfight i zoom and boom" and i hate those kinds of servers" and all this bullcrap...Why did ya'll even come into this thread is you feel that way?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Because "Nothing." is a logical answer to "What is that...".

If you want privileged posts, give your topic a proper title, e.g., "If you love dogfighting, what do YOU find so fun about it?". I am sure I wouldn't post there then. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

Noxx0s
03-06-2010, 08:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MosDef2006:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by thefruitbat:
because its like chess on speed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Man couldn't have said it better...

Whats gets me though, is the amount negativity in a thread that was simply asking really what do you like about online air combat i think. instead we got all this.." I don't dogfight i zoom and boom" and i hate those kinds of servers" and all this bullcrap...Why did ya'll even come into this thread is you feel that way?

Man...Zoom and Boom, Energy, Full real whatever..a good dogfighter knows how to employ all of those tactics in a fight..and I love it ALL..If anything, just the thrill of the hunt and engaging and killing another thinking person online regardless of their skill level is the rush for me..

Funny thing is..normally, the person who b!@$h's about "those kinds of servers" usually SUCKS in those kinds of servers; they are limited because they can't do anything without coms and teams(not that there's anything wrong with that ;-)..i can conquer in all...but different strokes...i'm not gonna knock you if you like those boring full real servers </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well said.

I think some people just have a stick shoved far up their ***.

I'm sorry rnzoli, if you really don't like air-to-air combat then why do YOU come in here and post? I don't think I should have to edit my thread titles exactly so that anyone who isn't into it isn't posting.

Who would've thought that people could be so elitist about a ****ing computer game. I've seen it in politics, music, and now gaming. Wow.

K_Freddie
03-07-2010, 01:50 AM
Well there is many various types of DF'ing..

1) When there are many planes in the sky, the most effective is BnZ, accompanied by teamwork and good comms.

2) Many other times it will be just the 2 of you, and here your flying skills (and tactics) will be put to the test.

Full real 'elitism' is actually good and something to strive for (if you feel that way) as it really gives you the closest feel of that type of combat contrary to what people like to say. Of course you need your SA to be jacked up a few notches here - a bit of practise offline with multiple opponents helps a lot.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

MikkOwl
03-07-2010, 02:43 AM
A dogfight is defined as anything requiring basic combat maneuvering. Boom and zoom counts, but a bounce against an unsuspecting prey does not.

So far, I had by far the most fun doing some 1 on 1 dogfighting with a friend at the end of last year. Only got to do it a few times, as he lacks motivation for any multiplayer game where he is not winning more than he is losing.

Since then I flew some online (War Clouds, combining air to air with air to ground). It is kind of fun, but my ping is high and the setup of aircraft heavily favours end-of-war single engined fighters doing the bombing and the air to air-ing. Not a good thing for my heavy fighter addiction. In it, I see mostly boom & zooms, bouncing, and people running away or chasing someone running away. Not a surprise considering how the late war fighter aircraft developed toward (mega firepower and mega high speed above other considerations).

rnzoli
03-07-2010, 03:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by IcyScythe:
I don't think I should have to edit my thread titles exactly so that anyone who isn't into it isn't posting. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>No problem mate, but then just accept that there will be a variety of answers on a broader scale than what you expected.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Who would've thought that people could be so elitist about a ****ing computer game. I've seen it in politics, music, and now gaming. Wow. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>The so-called "negative" posts weren't about elitism, but about "variety". Read back carefully my post especially the part "each to his own" and stop using ***** words please. If you love dogfightin, fine by me, but stop insulting people who don't and dare to elaborate in your topic about it. I personally don't push anyone to "dislike" dogfighting, and strongly believe in that possibility that you enjoy this game/sim in whatever way you like, not necessarily the way other people (e.g., you) like. This is freedom, not elitism.

Jaws2002
03-07-2010, 08:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by IcyScythe:
Who would've thought that people could be so elitist about a ****ing computer game. I've seen it in politics, music, and now gaming. Wow. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's been here from the begining. Some people are just like that. They like to prove (to themselves mostly) that somehow, the way they PLAY this GAME, is superior, and feel the urge to ridicule everyone that doesn't do it their way. Some use the settings as an excuse, others use the tactics, others the planes and so on.
Oh, I'm uber, I fly only full real", "oh look at me I play online wars, "Haha you're flying N00b planes".
It's been done to death.

thefruitbat
03-07-2010, 08:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jaws2002:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by IcyScythe:
Who would've thought that people could be so elitist about a ****ing computer game. I've seen it in politics, music, and now gaming. Wow. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's been here from the begining. Some people are just like that. They like to prove (to themselves mostly) that somehow, the way they PLAY this GAME, is superior, and feel the urge to ridicule everyone that doesn't do it their way. Some use the settings as an excuse, others use the tactics, others the planes and so on.
Oh, I'm uber, I fly only full real", "oh look at me I play online wars, "Haha you're flying N00b planes".
It's been done to death. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

+100000000000000

who can forget the red vs blue whines....

ElAurens
03-07-2010, 09:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jaws2002:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by IcyScythe:
Who would've thought that people could be so elitist about a ****ing computer game. I've seen it in politics, music, and now gaming. Wow. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's been here from the begining. Some people are just like that. They like to prove (to themselves mostly) that somehow, the way they PLAY this GAME, is superior, and feel the urge to ridicule everyone that doesn't do it their way. Some use the settings as an excuse, others use the tactics, others the planes and so on.
Oh, I'm uber, I fly only full real", "oh look at me I play online wars, "Haha you're flying N00b planes".
It's been done to death. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well said Jaws.

MikkOwl
03-07-2010, 09:36 PM
Back to some straight on topic posting. The reason I love dogfighting is... complex.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>The sportsmanship of competition.
<LI>The aircraft being an advanced, amazing machine, that I interact with in the most exciting way of all.
<LI>Being in control of such a machine that can fly and wreck such destruction is a bit like merging with it. Becoming a man-machine hybrid that has powers far beyond any regular man. Phrased a bit funny but it is part of the appeal.
<LI>The machine of the enemy is similar, yet different, adding complexity and spice.
<LI>The complexity of managing the damage/failiure to the machine, when and if it occurs (one reason I enjoy twin engined machines more, and liquid cooled ones - more stuff to manage.
<LI>It satisfies the part of me that lust for the hunt and violent destruction.
<LI>Gaining first hand (virtual) much deeper experience of how the real machines work, and how they differ from each other. Something that is difficult to understand by reading about them.
<LI>It allows comparisons to those real pilots and what really happened historically, with such high stakes.
<LI>It has similarities to racing cars, in that racing on circuits is one of the most complex, violent and competitive things that can be done with a four wheeled machine; interaction with the machine, the physics of the tires, suspension, aerodynamics, powerplant etc - but the air combat is even more mindboggling.
<LI>.. being fully vertical, inverted, three dimensional. Great demand on spatial thinking ability (mine is very good according to IQ tests, though that by itself doesn't save me from getting shot down all the time. Experience and training is more important).
<LI>The gunnery is another complex dimension added to all of the above, and a skill in itself.
<LI>When more than one on one is involved, it becomes a completely different, far more complicated endevour. I especially enjoy having bombers, escorts and interceptors involved and dynamically changing the situation. [/list]

I must point out that I think the late war machines are much less interesting than the early war. As the wars progressed (at least when speaking of the western allies vs Germany) the aircraft developed towards high speed energy fighting, gaining tons of weight, engine power and armament while sacrificing manueverability. It all happens too fast late war. The higher the speeds the more distant the enemy will be and the more distant, the harder to see (on a monitor in particular) and harder to process what the heck is going on. And with super armaments, people get blown out of the sky in the blink of an eye. On the servers I have been on they stick with really late war allied bombers and fighters versus early german bombers and fighters + some late German fighters. They say people won't come if they don't give them late war P-51's, P-47's (with the bubble canopy), tempests etc. Mainly American audience there I guess. I look forward to early war period with the Battle of Britain coming in Storm of War.

ElAurens
03-08-2010, 05:25 AM
There is no sportsmanship in putting your enemy, virtual or real, into the ground in a ball of flames.

It's survival.

One lives to fly again, the other doesn't.

Not a sport in my book.

MikkOwl
03-08-2010, 08:24 AM
If getting shot down results in not being allowed to fly again, you must fly more hardcore realism server settings than you let on in the 1C Company forum discussion. Either way, our self-amusement with this is very different from reality. It may behave similarly, but the experience and stakes share little.

Since there is nothing really risked, the sportmanship thing comes in where the stimulation and challenge is not so interesting if, for example, one is a 2000 hour veteran and the other is someone who is trying flying online for the second time ever, and repeatedly strafing them as they respawn on the airfield. In the real world, where people did generally not fly for sports, but fighting a big war with everything on the line, the lack of stimulation would be irellevant. Hope you understand what I am trying to say.

psykopatsak
03-08-2010, 01:29 PM
i dont find that i enjoy dogfighting. that may have to do with certain things as my interest in bigger planes, bigger guns, or simply a broken joystick...

Trefle
03-08-2010, 02:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ElAurens:
Not a sport in my book. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

For some real pilots during WWII , it probably was also a sport , here is an excerpt of an interview with WWII veteran Nikolay Golodnikov speaking about a captured Luftwaffe pilot :
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
A.S. Nikolay Gerasimovich, in you view, what explains the tendency of German pilots toward enlargement of their personal score?

"N.G. To us it was crazy. You know, when we shot down Müller, they brought him in to us. I remember him well. Average height, athletic build, red-haired. We were surprised that he was only an oberfeldvebel [master sergeant]. This was an ace with more than 90 victories! I still remember how surprising it was to learn that his father was a simple tailor.
Well, this Müller, when we asked him about Hitler, declared that politics did not motivate him; he did not have any hatred toward Russians. He was a “sportsman”; results were important to him and he wanted to shoot down more. His “cover group” engaged in combat and he, the “sportsman”, struck or did not strike as he pleased.
I got the impression that many German fighter pilots were just such “sportsmen”. It was all about money and glory.

A.S. Well, let’s agree that for the German fighter pilots—“sportsmen”—the war was a form of sport. What was the war for our pilots, for you personally?

N.G. It was the same for me as for all the rest. Work. Back-breaking, bloody, dirty, fearsome, and never-ending work. To withstand which was possible only because we were defending the Motherland. It was nothing close to a sport."

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/...golodnikov/part4.htm (http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/golodnikov/part4.htm)

K_Freddie
03-08-2010, 02:59 PM
The Brits make war out of sport
The Germans make sport out of war...

This has been reported on a few occasions.

Bremspropeller
03-08-2010, 03:13 PM
I guess the couple of thousand aircrew killed in WW2 will have a different view of "sport"...

K_Freddie
03-08-2010, 03:33 PM
So would the other sporting nations. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ElAurens
03-08-2010, 05:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
I guess the couple of thousand aircrew killed in WW2 will have a different view of "sport"... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly.

I do realize that for us virtual flyers it is more of a sport or game, or at least a lot of us see it as that. It is something we do for fun after all.

Sadly, the fun factor has slipped away for me. My last few months of flying the sim, and taking part in an online war type scenario, really drained off all my enthusiasm for IL2.

It's gotten to the point where I can't even think about touching the game. I've logged about 5 min. offline in the last month or so. After eight years I guess I'm burned out. I'm hoping that SOW will re-ignite my interest in "flying" again, but for now I have my fleetboat, and my starship, and that is where I'll be till SOW is released.