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darkhorizon11
02-13-2006, 11:07 AM
The concept of the .50 cal killing Tigers isn't totally arcady. The bullets themselves normally weren't known to pierce the massive tank's armor, but the cunning Jug pilots found ways.

Check out the video...

darkhorizon11
02-13-2006, 11:07 AM
The concept of the .50 cal killing Tigers isn't totally arcady. The bullets themselves normally weren't known to pierce the massive tank's armor, but the cunning Jug pilots found ways.

Check out the video...

darkhorizon11
02-13-2006, 11:09 AM
here (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6635752499311348219&q=wwii)

oops

joeap
02-13-2006, 11:09 AM
Well if they attacked a zoo maybe. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Or hit an ammo truck behind it sure.

Yes I watched the video.

Low_Flyer_MkVb
02-13-2006, 11:12 AM
Here we go again....

StellarRat
02-13-2006, 11:16 AM
Looks like an armored car to me, but the video quality is so poor that it could be just about anything other than a horse cart.

Hawgdog
02-13-2006, 11:21 AM
AAAIIIEEEEEE HITLER BUSH NAZI STALIN
TIGERS PANZERS JUGS SPITBOOST 190 DASHBOARD
AAAAAIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

50'S KILL TIGER TANKS


AAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE


CTRL+E CTRL+E CTRL+E CTRL+E CTRL+E CTRL+E

Allied_Killer
02-13-2006, 11:22 AM
Anyone who thinks that was a Tiger tank needs to lay off that whatever stuff that he/she is smoking.

SeaFireLIV
02-13-2006, 11:32 AM
The title should NOt include `Tiger`. StellarRat is right in that it could be anything. Also, we don`t actually see the object destroyed.

Great footage, but terribly misleading title. It should be called, `P47 strafes convoy.` END.

x__CRASH__x
02-13-2006, 11:39 AM
Very convincing footage. Lets use this to tell Oleg he must correct the 109G2 at once!

tjaika1910
02-13-2006, 12:10 PM
I espesially like the idea that ricocheting bullets make the Tiger spin.

... but seriously:

wouldn't it be great if this sim (or BoB) would have fake dummies. You think you go for a tank and it is just a wooden dummy!

JG54_Arnie
02-13-2006, 12:13 PM
Its not the same target either, the first seems a Stug or something, the last one is simply a truck..

MercilessFatBoy
02-13-2006, 12:19 PM
this finaly proves the 50 cals carried nuclear warheads..

doesnt look like a tiger to me any ways

berg417448
02-13-2006, 12:21 PM
Why go you guys always fall for this same old trolling?

Lucius_Esox
02-13-2006, 12:25 PM
Hawdog,,,, http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif roflol..

Krizz1972
02-13-2006, 12:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Viking-S:
Here is more evidence of the Tigers vulnerability!
If you look closely to this picture you will see why!


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v125/F16_fatboy/Tiger.jpg

Yes! That is right, they where all plastic toys! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, I see. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1241.gif

telsono
02-13-2006, 12:29 PM
There were many cases of the AFV's being destroyed by anti-tank guns and then subsequently atacked by the air, two or three times. This is mentioned in this book:

Saving the Breakout : The 30th Division's Heroic Stand at Mortain, August 7-12, 1944 (Hardcover)
by Alwyn Featherston

If you listened to the commentary in that film clip you will hear the pilot mentioned that they aimed primarily for a cart carrying fuel behind the tank and setting that on fire. The comments about bouncing off the roads was also there. I do think that might be an "urban legend", especially if there isn't any confirmation from ground sources. A tank could have been stopped by the track being ripped apart by the .50's.
Destroyed tanks can still burn if the fuel wasn't set off originally by the anti-tank gun or other means. Disabled tanks were abandoned frequently during fluid attacks as the crew tried to preserve themselves.

joeap
02-13-2006, 01:37 PM
Dude yes and I said in all seriousness blowing up an ammo truck could mess up even a Tiger near it...so maybe a blown-up fuel trailer could disable one also, but honestly the bouncing off the road bit is toro droppings.

x__CRASH__x
02-13-2006, 01:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tjaika1910:
wouldn't it be great if this sim (or BoB) would have fake dummies? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Why do we need fake ones? We have the real deal right here in the Ubi forums!

AFJ_Locust
02-13-2006, 02:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hawgdog:



CTRL+E CTRL+E CTRL+E CTRL+E CTRL+E CTRL+E </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

AFJ_Locust
02-13-2006, 02:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by x__CRASH__x:
Very convincing footage. Lets use this to tell Oleg he must correct the 109G2 at once! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

what the hell is wrong with the g2 now ?

YOUR AIM ????

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

AFJ_Locust
02-13-2006, 02:20 PM
Well one thing the man sayes is that they bounced 50s off the ground up under the tanks wich is possibal, I dont think 50 cals took out tigers on a regular basis tho

maybe a few but not many

If they do kill tiger tanks then they dam well should be ALOT harder on ac such as fw & alike http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

x__CRASH__x
02-13-2006, 02:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AFJ_Locust:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by x__CRASH__x:
Very convincing footage. Lets use this to tell Oleg he must correct the 109G2 at once! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

what the hell is wrong with the g2 now ?

YOUR AIM ????

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think it's fine. Oleg thinks its fine and proves it with documentation. But apparently that isn't good enough for some people who are hell bent on screaming "Overmoddled"

AnaK774
02-13-2006, 02:27 PM
Well, most likely reason for .50 destroying buttoned tiger tank would be having so many bullets rolling on ground it would slip and break its neck.

CD_kp84yb
02-13-2006, 02:36 PM
First 2 were tanks, lots of ricochets, no kill no damage that stopped it, the last on is a simple truck, you can see the flash when the tyre gets hit.

For the trailer part,
there is no trailer behind the tanks. Its against all German army regulations to tow things behind your tank, no trailer no tanks nothing.
If a tank ran out off fuel is got meachnical failure , they had to wait till the recovery vehicles showed up (bergepanzer )if it gets hot(enemy near), or cannot be recovered blow the tank up)
If you tow something behind a tank you cant manouvre ,in other words you are dead.

Now for the tracks, there are several ways to loose a track :
1 You screwed up in maintance (track is not adjusted according to the manual) to loose , you always see that on the modeltanks.
2 You screwed up in driving, driving like a old woman in turns make you throw track. pedal in to the metal when turn
3 you were sleeping when driving in a turn and didnt noticed the knocking before you lost the track
4 you drove over an anti-tank mine, bad luck
5 you got hit by antitankgun that hit your track, you were lucky with this hit
6 you got hit by a infantry anti tank rocket on the track.

Now did i forget something?????
yup
7 you got hit by a bomb near the track.(range depends on the bomb, but you wont mind)
8 you got hit near the track by artilery 150mm does wonders
9 you drove on a sloped hill and was sleeping again, instead of changing the angle you kept driving with the hull hanging 45 degrees to the left or right.

thats all

Are you one of those guys that beliefs in the fairytail that you could stop a tank by sticking an iron rod into the sprocketweel of a tank doing 20 or more Km/h?????? try it we have a good laugh then.
The steel of a track is designed to withstand the power of the engine,the weight of the tank and its made to travel on sand rocks you name it , without excessive wear, So a very good piece of steel very tough.

A small bullet of a few grams can do **** against a track of take it 1000kg or more( depending on the type of tank).

Try it take a 50 cal and a box of ammo and let the tank have while it moves , and give us the results ( dont give me the results cos i have done it, as part of my job over 18 years).

But on the other hand you may believe in fables, nothing wrong with it

Grue_
02-13-2006, 02:50 PM
Excellent reply Hawgdog. Best I've seen regarding this issue.

More .50 vs Tiger fun!

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/4761058463/p/1

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/32710304/p/1

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/9781075883/p/1

jds1978
02-13-2006, 03:10 PM
this topic is like yellow fever

tigertalon
02-13-2006, 03:20 PM
What really pinched my eye watchin this track is how stable P47 was as a gunplatform. Yaw adjustments are fine, plane stays where puted, no wobbling, plane behaves perfectly smooth...

LUFT11_Hoflich
02-13-2006, 03:26 PM
Same ol' BS.. In the other online sim I used to fly, US Pilots always beotched about the .50 cal, They affirmed that Jugs "destroyed" Tigers, by spraying the tank with bullets from the rear.. thus hitting the radiator or vent... something like that they claimed... thus kiling the tank's engine, no engine = dead tiger..

I say its all hamster-shiite

What about the rumor about the MK103 armed Fw190 , used for anti tank attacks and some version of the r4m rocket with AP capabilities??

H¶f...

anarchy52
02-13-2006, 03:33 PM
I heard 8 .50 from P-47 could knock the tiger on it's side.

luftluuver
02-13-2006, 03:39 PM
There is a sucker born every minute. If they lived at the North Pole they could be sold a freezer.

darkhorizon11
02-13-2006, 03:45 PM
I've never seen this video posted here before so I threw it up for conversation and comment. If it was already put up here I apologize...

Whats the fuss about? It did happen, shame on the Germans for not armoring the bottom of the tank...

Please reread my post before you comment. I never actually said whether I thought the .50 was undermodeled or overmodeled I was just pointing out that Jug pilots using the 50 found ways to kill heavily armored tanks.

That and I'm not going to pay attention to any idiots throwing opinionated garbage around that have only 15-20 posts...

Viper2005_
02-13-2006, 03:47 PM
Anybody notice that those Thunderbolt pilots were shooting from way beyond their convergence?

SeaFireLIV
02-13-2006, 03:59 PM
Yep. ut I guess the tank\lorry\halftrack isn`t going to dodge out like a fighter aircraft.

NagaSadow84
02-13-2006, 04:00 PM
The history of almost every single Tiger and Tiger II is fairly well known and only 15 were knocked out by fighter bombers. 13 in the west and 2 in the east. So it could be considered a miracle if the video would really show a P-47 knocking out a Tiger.

carts
02-13-2006, 04:19 PM
A "before" and "after" shot.
I trust this will put an end to this debate once and for all
http://premium1.uploadit.org/cartsuk//TIGER1.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/cartsuk//TIGER2.jpg

Werg78
02-13-2006, 04:45 PM
the belly of a tank IS armored. no .50 cal bullet especially not one "ricochet" off the ground (erm lol) would have ANY chance to cause ANY damage whatsoever.

tiger I 26mm belly armor !!

AustinPowers_
02-13-2006, 04:50 PM
Man I LOVE this topic.

Oleg too.

bolillo_loco
02-13-2006, 04:54 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v358/bolillo_quemado/luftwaffepropaganda1.jpg

ImpStarDuece
02-13-2006, 05:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by darkhorizon11:
I've never seen this video posted here before so I threw it up for conversation and comment. If it was already put up here I apologize...

Whats the fuss about? It did happen, shame on the Germans for not armoring the bottom of the tank...

Please reread my post before you comment. I never actually said whether I thought the .50 was undermodeled or overmodeled I was just pointing out that Jug pilots using the 50 found ways to kill heavily armored tanks.

That and I'm not going to pay attention to any idiots throwing opinionated garbage around that have only 15-20 posts... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Horsehockey


Some fun facts:

Penetration of a .50 calibre M2 Armour Piercing round fired from a Browning M2 with a 45" barrel at a Rolled Homogenous Armour plate at 0 degrees and 200 meters is 25.4mm, or almost exactly one inch.

A WW2 wing mounted M2 had a 52" barrel, so velocity at 75m from the barrle is a little higher than the 856 m/sec commonly quoted. Generally, 880m/sec is taken as the proper velocity.

We can allow an extra 300 mph or 134 m/sec for the movement of the plane.

So, velocity at 75m from the barrel is around 1020 m/sec, or about 20% better than a ground based 45" barrel M2.

Maximum possible penetration for a M2 AP round with longer barrel and added momentum is about 31-34mm.

Tiger Is had 25-28 mm of face hardened belly armour, mostly to protect from mines. Face hardening reduces the penetration capacity of a M2 round by about 10% at 200 meters, giving about 28mm-31mm RHA equivalent protection.

Now a M2 round could theoretically penetrate a Tiger Is belly armour IF it hit at 0 degrees vertical.

So if the P-47 was diving at 300-400 mph at 90 degrees and the Tiger I was resting upside down on its turret,a .50 cal round it could penetrate the belly armour http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

However, we need to consider certain facts:

1. A P-47 needs to make a diving attack to 'bounce' the rounds up into the belly. Lets assume a fairly steep 30 degree dive.

2. At 30 degrees a ricchochet off a hard road surface is going to reduce velocity by approximately 1/4 to 1/3.

3. Bouncing off a road surface will cause both significant yaw and deformation of the round, which will markedly reduce penetration power.

4. After bouncing off a road surface, the most favourable angle of impace will be about 30 degrees. At this degree of vertical, relative armour thickness is approximately doubled. So the slowed, destabilised, deformed M2 round will now have to penetrate more than 50mm of armour.

5. If a road surface is hard enough to deflect .50 calibre rounds UPWARDS, don't you think that face hardened steel is hard enough to deflect that same round DOWNWARDS? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

FritzGryphon
02-13-2006, 05:57 PM
Hear hear!

But don't fret, you can still kill Tigers with M2 in PF.

I managed it with a YP-80, flying straight down at 900km/h, shooting at the roof of the tank from 150m. It did actualy die, a moment before I crashed.

And PzIIIs can easily be killed at more moderate angles and lower speeds. It's surprisingly easy, once you get the routine down.

LStarosta
02-13-2006, 07:06 PM
Ok. I think we have proven beyond a reasonable doubt that .50's can destroy Tigers.

Xiolablu3
02-13-2006, 08:11 PM
Oh my god, not again....

Thre is a tiny explosion by the track of the armoured vehicle, thats ALL.

NOWHERE is it seen to be 'burst'

chris455
02-13-2006, 11:57 PM
DIE THREAD, DIE.

actionhank1786
02-14-2006, 01:11 AM
Who cares?
They had wing mounted Bazookas for a reason.
Save the .50s for the planes, you've got bombs and rockets for those pesky tanks.
That video was awesome though, thanks for finding it!

La7_brook
02-14-2006, 01:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by x__CRASH__x:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AFJ_Locust:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by x__CRASH__x:
Very convincing footage. Lets use this to tell Oleg he must correct the 109G2 at once! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

what the hell is wrong with the g2 now ?

YOUR AIM ????

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think it's fine. Oleg thinks its fine and proves it with documentation. But apparently that isn't good enough for some people who are hell bent on screaming "Overmoddled" </div></BLOCKQUOTE> the g2 great ,were in patch 4.3 and been a main front line fighter it should had all its fixs by now / well the manual PP was just worked on in last patch /yes i miss it the way it was , but still use now / just hoping its right now but im sure that with all the little teaks that still are going on with the 109 i wonder

WOLFMondo
02-14-2006, 01:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LStarosta:
Ok. I think we have proven beyond a reasonable doubt that .50's can destroy Tigers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. If the Tiger has been left belly up by its crew a .50 can penetrate a tigers belly armour.

Of cause it was common practice for Germans to leave there Tigers resting on there turrets when not in action to confuse PRU aircraft.

Maybe someone should call myth busters to prove this myth is just a myth.

dravisar
02-14-2006, 04:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FritzGryphon:
Hear hear!

But don't fret, you can still kill Tigers with M2 in PF.

I managed it with a YP-80, flying straight down at 900km/h, shooting at the roof of the tank from 150m. It did actualy die, a moment before I crashed.

And PzIIIs can easily be killed at more moderate angles and lower speeds. It's surprisingly easy, once you get the routine down. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you being serious? Ive never knocked out a tank with the 50s.

Feathered_IV
02-14-2006, 06:11 AM
Could someone please post a picture of a knocked out Tiger (a picture taken from the ground I mean) that has been obviously destroyed by .50's?

Anyone?

There must have been hundereds lying around Europe eh?.

Anyone?

Please??

Didn't think so http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

Hristo_
02-14-2006, 06:23 AM
You should know better...no knocked out Tigers exist - they all melted away after multiple .50 cals API hits.

SnapdLikeAMutha
02-14-2006, 06:32 AM
"they weren't armour-plated underneath"

I've never heard such a Consignment of Geriatric Shoe Manufacturers

They were armoured at the bottom to protect against A/T mines

SnapdLikeAMutha
02-14-2006, 06:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bolillo_loco:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v358/bolillo_quemado/luftwaffepropaganda1.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funnily enough, playing BF1942 online is exactly like that

Philipscdrw
02-14-2006, 06:34 AM
Does anyone else remember where this myth started?

It was in the CFS1 manual. I remember it clearly stating that .50cal fire, bounced from the surface of a road, could knock out tanks via their underbellies.

So please forward all complaints to Microsoft and ask them for their evidence...

VonShlagnoff
02-14-2006, 10:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Philipscdrw:
Does anyone else remember where this myth started?

It was in the CFS1 manual. I remember it clearly stating that .50cal fire, bounced from the surface of a road, could knock out tanks via their underbellies.

So please forward all complaints to Microsoft and ask them for their evidence... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nah on a a few of the "America Saved The Free World" programs on the Discovery/History type channels there were quite a few USAAF "Vets" (not the animal doctor type neither!) claiming how they killed panzers and Tigers with .50s.

Oh yeah and Saving Ryans Privates at the end too, thats bound to have done a bit.

StellarRat
02-14-2006, 10:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dravisar:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FritzGryphon:
Hear hear!

But don't fret, you can still kill Tigers with M2 in PF.

I managed it with a YP-80, flying straight down at 900km/h, shooting at the roof of the tank from 150m. It did actualy die, a moment before I crashed.

And PzIIIs can easily be killed at more moderate angles and lower speeds. It's surprisingly easy, once you get the routine down. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you being serious? Ive never knocked out a tank with the 50s. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, it is possible to knock PZ IIIs with .50s by diving down at a fairly steep angle and hitting them on the top. However, I've found the angle required is quite dangerous when it's time to pull out. You have to be patient and line yourself up just right. I haven't had any luck with PZ IVs, PZ V's or Tigers (PZ VI). Although, I believe it is possible to knock IVs with .50s in game. If you go look up the top armor stats you'll find the earlier model WW II tanks frequently had less then 25mm of top armor. Oleg has simulated this properly.

joeap
02-14-2006, 10:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VonShlagnoff:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Philipscdrw:
Does anyone else remember where this myth started?

It was in the CFS1 manual. I remember it clearly stating that .50cal fire, bounced from the surface of a road, could knock out tanks via their underbellies.

So please forward all complaints to Microsoft and ask them for their evidence... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nah on a a few of the "America Saved The Free World" programs on the Discovery/History type channels there were quite a few USAAF "Vets" (not the animal doctor type neither!) claiming how they killed panzers and Tigers with .50s.

Oh yeah and Saving Ryans Privates at the end too, thats bound to have done a bit. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well are you saying those weren't real Vets? Maybe they (I am sure) they were mistaken, for one thing probably couldn't tell a Tiger from other tanks. Was the same for ships and tanks for all air forces. As to Private Ryan well I thought the P-51 was using bombs or rockets in its attack? Seemed "clear" to me the idea it had strafed with it's 50s never entered my head...silly me. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

LStarosta
02-14-2006, 04:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chris455:
DIE THREAD, DIE. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bump. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

carguy_
02-14-2006, 05:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VonShlagnoff:
Oh yeah and Saving Ryans Privates at the end too, thats bound to have done a bit. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


"P51 Mustangs...the tank destroyers.......our angels" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

LStarosta
02-14-2006, 05:22 PM
You're just jealous because I've been killing Tigers with .50s online all day long.

SnapdLikeAMutha
02-14-2006, 05:29 PM
Hey LStarosta, what did you do all last summer again?
-I told you, I spent it on Forgotten Battles hunting Tiger tanks.
Did you shoot any?
-Yes like 50 of them. They kept trying to attack my Shermans. What the heck would you do in a situation like that?
What kind of gun did you use?
-A fricking .50 what do you think!

Sergio_101
02-15-2006, 03:44 AM
It happend, it was possible, get over it.

Sergio

Manuel29
02-15-2006, 04:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Philipscdrw:
Does anyone else remember where this myth started?

It was in the CFS1 manual. I remember it clearly stating that .50cal fire, bounced from the surface of a road, could knock out tanks via their underbellies.

So please forward all complaints to Microsoft and ask them for their evidence... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have a book with that report told by the pilot himself: I think it was true but I was 11...

It's funny how the pilot describes the hitted Tiger: a lot of fireworks around it (like in a cartoon) while the other Tiger tried to ESCAPE.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Please be serious... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

LStarosta
02-15-2006, 04:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SnapdLikeAMutha:
Hey LStarosta, what did you do all last summer again?
-I told you, I spent it on Forgotten Battles hunting Tiger tanks.
Did you shoot any?
-Yes like 50 of them. They kept trying to attack my Shermans. What the heck would you do in a situation like that?
What kind of gun did you use?
-A fricking .50 what do you think! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

VonShlagnoff
02-15-2006, 05:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carguy_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VonShlagnoff:
Oh yeah and Saving Ryans Privates at the end too, thats bound to have done a bit. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


"P51 Mustangs...the tank destroyers.......our angels" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My point exactly. I mean come on do you think that if the .50 gun was such a reliable anti armour gun the allies would have bothered hanging all those rockets from aircraft that were equipped with 30mm cannons or the .50s? They may have done it on occasion but not with the regularity that most Americans belive. Don't forget that most of the ealy war tanks were equipped with 30mm guns and they were binned because they could not penetrate the thicker armour of the newer tanks. I know that aircraft shoot at softer areas of the tank but they also do not have the firing opertunities that other tanks do due to the high closing speed. I dare say that highly concentrated burst of .50 fire in the engine area or track area will disable a Tiger, but when you are wanging around at 300mph trying not to get shot or fly into something, how often are you going to be able to pull that shot off?

OldMan____
02-15-2006, 05:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by darkhorizon11:
I've never seen this video posted here before so I threw it up for conversation and comment. If it was already put up here I apologize...

Whats the fuss about? It did happen, shame on the Germans for not armoring the bottom of the tank...

Please reread my post before you comment. I never actually said whether I thought the .50 was undermodeled or overmodeled I was just pointing out that Jug pilots using the 50 found ways to kill heavily armored tanks.

That and I'm not going to pay attention to any idiots throwing opinionated garbage around that have only 15-20 posts... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Horsehockey


Some fun facts:

Penetration of a .50 calibre M2 Armour Piercing round fired from a Browning M2 with a 45" barrel at a Rolled Homogenous Armour plate at 0 degrees and 200 meters is 25.4mm, or almost exactly one inch.

A WW2 wing mounted M2 had a 52" barrel, so velocity at 75m from the barrle is a little higher than the 856 m/sec commonly quoted. Generally, 880m/sec is taken as the proper velocity.

We can allow an extra 300 mph or 134 m/sec for the movement of the plane.

So, velocity at 75m from the barrel is around 1020 m/sec, or about 20% better than a ground based 45" barrel M2.

Maximum possible penetration for a M2 AP round with longer barrel and added momentum is about 31-34mm.

Tiger Is had 25-28 mm of face hardened belly armour, mostly to protect from mines. Face hardening reduces the penetration capacity of a M2 round by about 10% at 200 meters, giving about 28mm-31mm RHA equivalent protection.

Now a M2 round could theoretically penetrate a Tiger Is belly armour IF it hit at 0 degrees vertical.

So if the P-47 was diving at 300-400 mph at 90 degrees and the Tiger I was resting upside down on its turret,a .50 cal round it could penetrate the belly armour http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

However, we need to consider certain facts:

1. A P-47 needs to make a diving attack to 'bounce' the rounds up into the belly. Lets assume a fairly steep 30 degree dive.

2. At 30 degrees a ricchochet off a hard road surface is going to reduce velocity by approximately 1/4 to 1/3.

3. Bouncing off a road surface will cause both significant yaw and deformation of the round, which will markedly reduce penetration power.

4. After bouncing off a road surface, the most favourable angle of impace will be about 30 degrees. At this degree of vertical, relative armour thickness is approximately doubled. So the slowed, destabilised, deformed M2 round will now have to penetrate more than 50mm of armour.

5. If a road surface is hard enough to deflect .50 calibre rounds UPWARDS, don't you think that face hardened steel is hard enough to deflect that same round DOWNWARDS? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is more complicated that that. Just give a look at Nathan Okun work.

In general a simple AP bullet like the .50 have ridiculosyly LOW armor penetration at higher angles. At 30 degress. By Thompson or Krupp formulae, it will NOT penatrate 12 mm of Homogeneous armor.

Also when aprojectile bounces in a flat armor surface (better than in ground), it looses a LOT of energy. It depends on angle, but on most cases it is about 50% of its E.

Also being hardened face shoudl not be used as an "add some milimiters". hardened face armor are made to break projectiles in near normal angle. While homogeneous armor were made to deflect projectilea at shallower angles.

Stafroty
02-15-2006, 05:50 AM
and also, the higher the speed of the projectile more faster it bleeds its speed. as air becomes "thicker" in front of it.
show me one plane which dives 90 deg dive till 300m alt and then pulls out in safe.

Philipscdrw
02-15-2006, 07:15 AM
The I-153?

But that has 4x 7.62mm guns...

joeap
02-15-2006, 09:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VonShlagnoff:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carguy_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VonShlagnoff:
Oh yeah and Saving Ryans Privates at the end too, thats bound to have done a bit. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


"P51 Mustangs...the tank destroyers.......our angels" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My point exactly. I mean come on do you think that if the .50 gun was such a reliable anti armour gun the allies would have bothered hanging all those rockets from aircraft that were equipped with 30mm cannons or the .50s? They may have done it on occasion but not with the regularity that most Americans belive. Don't forget that most of the ealy war tanks were equipped with 30mm guns and they were binned because they could not penetrate the thicker armour of the newer tanks. I know that aircraft shoot at softer areas of the tank but they also do not have the firing opertunities that other tanks do due to the high closing speed. I dare say that highly concentrated burst of .50 fire in the engine area or track area will disable a Tiger, but when you are wanging around at 300mph trying not to get shot or fly into something, how often are you going to be able to pull that shot off? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did you read my post? I am pretty sure the P-51s must have been dropping bombs or firing rockets, I don't think you can conclude from what was shown in the film Speilberg was saying 50s could blow up tiger tanks. I would guess rockets.

CD_kp84yb
02-15-2006, 09:43 AM
The tank in the movie looks in good shape to me.
Here it is at duxford museum, a bit rusty but when you have some paint.Shame that it never ever will be a tiger, it will always be a T34

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif


http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/cd_kp84yb/duxford_34_t1.jpg


cheers

MercilessFatBoy
02-15-2006, 01:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CD_kp84yb:
The tank in the movie looks in good shape to me.
Here it is at duxford museum, a bit rusty but when you have some paint.Shame that it never ever will be a tiger, it will always be a T34

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

dam it!~!! i pay to see my p51 tank killers equip wiht 50 cals wiht nuclear warheads killing a tiger not a darn t34... now i get my money back!


http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/cd_kp84yb/duxford_34_t1.jpg


cheers </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

VonShlagnoff
02-15-2006, 01:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by joeap:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VonShlagnoff:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carguy_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VonShlagnoff:
Oh yeah and Saving Ryans Privates at the end too, thats bound to have done a bit. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


"P51 Mustangs...the tank destroyers.......our angels" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My point exactly. I mean come on do you think that if the .50 gun was such a reliable anti armour gun the allies would have bothered hanging all those rockets from aircraft that were equipped with 30mm cannons or the .50s? They may have done it on occasion but not with the regularity that most Americans belive. Don't forget that most of the ealy war tanks were equipped with 30mm guns and they were binned because they could not penetrate the thicker armour of the newer tanks. I know that aircraft shoot at softer areas of the tank but they also do not have the firing opertunities that other tanks do due to the high closing speed. I dare say that highly concentrated burst of .50 fire in the engine area or track area will disable a Tiger, but when you are wanging around at 300mph trying not to get shot or fly into something, how often are you going to be able to pull that shot off? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did you read my post? I am pretty sure the P-51s must have been dropping bombs or firing rockets, I don't think you can conclude from what was shown in the film Speilberg was saying 50s could blow up tiger tanks. I would guess rockets. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes I read your post, and my point is that scenes like that in movies linked with poorly resourced "Historical" evidence perpetuates this myth. I know that the planes in the film were probably supposed to have dropped bombs but how much of the film going public know that? Then coupled with some of the tripe that the TV companies spew out about only adds to this falsehood. Like I said before, on occasion a Tiger/other late war panzer was probably disabled by a good burst of .50 fire, but it was not a reliable method and it certainly never blew a buttoned up Tiger to bits.

danjama
02-15-2006, 02:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Low_Flyer_MkVb:
Here we go again.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

im just sorry i havnt been on for a couple of days, so many amusing threads i have been missing out on

Max.Power
02-15-2006, 03:00 PM
Won teh war!

Sergio_101
02-15-2006, 03:30 PM
Guys, no one is calling a .50 the ideal tank buster.
Given a spray of .50 cal fire from a P-47, roughly
6000 rounds per minute sustained fire, your
standing a chance of finding a weakness is good.
A seam, a weld, a cooling intake,
a track, something.

Also the fire from 6 or 8 guns repeatedly hitting
a surface could whittle it's way through.
Again, not the ideal anti tank machine.
But it did happen, and it did work at least once.

During the Allied blitz across Europe
an injured tank was
likely a lost tank. You did not have to render
it beyond repair, just stop it.

I bet no German desired to be in any tank watching a P-47 bearing down on him with
a clear field of view.

Sergio

249th_Harrier
02-15-2006, 04:14 PM
I think in an Ambrose book I read about this tactic in WWII: send a tank to "scout" near a suspected machine gun nest. The MG "drives away" the pesky tank and the infantry rejoices and think they are heros. The enemy now knows the location of the hidden MG, and procedes to annihilate it with mortars.

An interesting point here: if aircraft only destroyed ~15 Tiger and Tiger II tanks, why did they have extra armor on the top of the tank? Was this because the Germans believed the 50 cal myth too?

BaronUnderpants
02-15-2006, 06:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anarchy52:
I heard 8 .50 from P-47 could knock the tiger on it's side. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

For every reaction there is a counter reaction...wich means if a tiger was flipped over by mg fire, the plane shooting the mg`s would flip over to, ( or in this case flip over a gezillion tomes backwards, since the tiger weighs about 30 times more than the P-47 )

SnapdLikeAMutha
02-15-2006, 06:05 PM
I heard if you shot Chuck Norris with an 0.50" the whole world would end

danjama
02-15-2006, 06:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SnapdLikeAMutha:
Hey LStarosta, what did you do all last summer again?
-I told you, I spent it on Forgotten Battles hunting Tiger tanks.
Did you shoot any?
-Yes like 50 of them. They kept trying to attack my Shermans. What the heck would you do in a situation like that?
What kind of gun did you use?
-A fricking .50 what do you think! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

lbhskier37
02-15-2006, 06:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by danjama:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SnapdLikeAMutha:
Hey LStarosta, what did you do all last summer again?
-I told you, I spent it on Forgotten Battles hunting Tiger tanks.
Did you shoot any?
-Yes like 50 of them. They kept trying to attack my Shermans. What the heck would you do in a situation like that?
What kind of gun did you use?
-A fricking .50 what do you think! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have to steal that, that's the funniest thing I've seen on here in a while.

potzblitz
02-16-2006, 01:38 PM
lol .50 cal destroyes a tiger...when you read about the armor and capability of .50 cal penetration, you will see that it is impossible.
there is none explosion to see when the plane did attack any tank, the on thing which is on fire is probably a fuel tank which was towed.
stop watching history channel and read about facts.