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Waldo.Pepper
09-15-2009, 12:54 PM
THE MOST DANGEROUS ENEMY page 264.

"By the same token, the standard escape for a Spitfire or Hurricane was a corkscrew dive, which exploited the aircraft's higher rate of roll. The 109 could go straight down faster, but had trouble following a twisting dive. One variant on this a British pilot could use was to half-roll into a steep dive and pull out suddenly. If his pursuer followed the dive he could not pull out as fast because of the heaviness of his elevator, and the Spitfire would be climbing away above him. When the Royal Aircraft Establishment discovered this during their evaluation of the 109, they recommended that British pilots try diving and pulling out at low level, and watch their opponent fly into the ground."

I have made myself a lawn dart once or twice if I let myself get all fangs out hair on fire.

Waldo.Pepper
09-15-2009, 12:54 PM
THE MOST DANGEROUS ENEMY page 264.

"By the same token, the standard escape for a Spitfire or Hurricane was a corkscrew dive, which exploited the aircraft's higher rate of roll. The 109 could go straight down faster, but had trouble following a twisting dive. One variant on this a British pilot could use was to half-roll into a steep dive and pull out suddenly. If his pursuer followed the dive he could not pull out as fast because of the heaviness of his elevator, and the Spitfire would be climbing away above him. When the Royal Aircraft Establishment discovered this during their evaluation of the 109, they recommended that British pilots try diving and pulling out at low level, and watch their opponent fly into the ground."

I have made myself a lawn dart once or twice if I let myself get all fangs out hair on fire.

stalkervision
09-15-2009, 01:11 PM
Corkscrew dive?? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif I have heard of the flick half roll being used.

Lancaster's use to do that as a night evasion tactic against German twin engine fighters.

http://www.edenbridgetown.com/...ry/no_comforts.shtml (http://www.edenbridgetown.com/in_the_past/bill_walters_story/no_comforts.shtml)

I am pretty sure I could follow a corkscrew dive very well. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Ba5tard5word
09-15-2009, 01:13 PM
I see the AI do these sorts of diving rolls all the time in lots of different planes, it drives me nuts. AI Spitfires and LaGG-3's definitely do it.

stalkervision
09-15-2009, 01:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ba5tard5word:
I see the AI do these sorts of diving rolls all the time in lots of different planes, it drives me nuts. AI Spitfires and LaGG-3's definitely do it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The ai in this game is F-in stupid..! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif


I watched a Blenheim doing all kinds of f-up silly manauvers.

It drives me NUTS too! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Ba5tard5word
09-15-2009, 01:24 PM
Fly against some late version LaGG-3's set on Veteran or Ace skill and get back to me. They will loop around away from you like rings around saturn, the AI for it is very tough. But the AI for La-5's is really lazy and easy to kill even though the La-5 is a way better plane.

stalkervision
09-15-2009, 01:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ba5tard5word:
Fly against some late version LaGG-3's set on Veteran or Ace skill and get back to me. They will loop around away from you like rings around saturn, the AI for it is very tough. But the AI for La-5's is really lazy and easy to kill even though the La-5 is a way better plane. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have flown against everything in 46 (ace/ whatever) and the only thing tough about it is following these silly unrealistic maneuvers.

IMO the earlier Il-2 Ai was much better. I believe the guys over at "the mod shop" have snapped some of it up and now are using it in "46"

K_Freddie
09-15-2009, 01:37 PM
I've always been quick to cut the throttle, or cross my controls in a dive.. preventing an overshoot or big hole in the ground..

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

stalkervision
09-15-2009, 01:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K_Freddie:
I've always been quick to cut the throttle, or cross my controls in a dive.. preventing an overshoot or big hole in the ground..

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I cut the throttle and reach for the elevator trim.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Ba5tard5word
09-15-2009, 02:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">IMO the earlier Il-2 Ai was much better. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If by "better" you mean easier, then I guess so. I first played Il-2 on the FB/PF version and the AI was a lot tamer and lazier. When I got 1946 and flew against the same planes, I really noticed that the AI was a lot more aggressive in attack and trickier to tail.

stalkervision
09-15-2009, 03:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ba5tard5word:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">IMO the earlier Il-2 Ai was much better. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If by "better" you mean easier, then I guess so. I first played Il-2 on the FB/PF version and the AI was a lot tamer and lazier. When I got 1946 and flew against the same planes, I really noticed that the AI was a lot more aggressive in attack and trickier to tail. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


No, the "trickiness" I have noticed is all in silly maneuvers the ai in 46 uses.

I was doing some "46" screenies and watched the ai fight.

What a sight it was and by this I don't mean realistic.

I guess I am spoiled the BOB/WOV AI is worlds better and I mean that.

Boy I hope Oleg doesn't keep this present ai system in SOW.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

That is why the guys keep working on this ai in the mods forum.

stalkervision
09-15-2009, 03:06 PM
Please Oleg you are a very talented fellow. Give the game the Ai it deserves.

Treetop64
09-15-2009, 03:42 PM
Oleg needs to find someone with the patience and a particular talent to work on AI. Writing, and debugging, AI maneuvers in a hard-core flight sim such as this can't be the easiest job in the world.

horseback
09-15-2009, 03:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
THE MOST DANGEROUS ENEMY page 264.

"By the same token, the standard escape for a Spitfire or Hurricane was a corkscrew dive, which exploited the aircraft's higher rate of roll. The 109 could go straight down faster, but had trouble following a twisting dive. One variant on this a British pilot could use was to half-roll into a steep dive and pull out suddenly. If his pursuer followed the dive he could not pull out as fast because of the heaviness of his elevator, and the Spitfire would be climbing away above him. When the Royal Aircraft Establishment discovered this during their evaluation of the 109, they recommended that British pilots try diving and pulling out at low level, and watch their opponent fly into the ground."

I have made myself a lawn dart once or twice if I let myself get all fangs out hair on fire. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Most Allied fighter pilots appear to have thought that the 109 was prone to lawndarting; P-38 drivers from N. Africa and the Med seemed to have used a a twisting dive from medium to low alts acoording to COL Oliver Taylor, who mentioned that the 109 didn't seem able pull out of a dive as easily in a report that has been widely quoted on these forums.

Of course, no P-47 or Mustang ace's memoir is complete without at least one description of pursuing a 109 that never pulled up in time...

In game, the elevators do get heavy pretty quickly if you're not pumping in the nose up trim and backing off the throttle. The player just can't dive with the abandon that the ai have, that's for sure.

Stalkervision, I wholeheartedly second your motion. Any opposed?

cheers

horseback

M_Gunz
09-15-2009, 03:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
THE MOST DANGEROUS ENEMY page 264.

"By the same token, the standard escape for a Spitfire or Hurricane was a corkscrew dive, which exploited the aircraft's higher rate of roll. The 109 could go straight down faster, but had trouble following a twisting dive. One variant on this a British pilot could use was to half-roll into a steep dive and pull out suddenly. If his pursuer followed the dive he could not pull out as fast because of the heaviness of his elevator, and the Spitfire would be climbing away above him. When the Royal Aircraft Establishment discovered this during their evaluation of the 109, they recommended that British pilots try diving and pulling out at low level, and watch their opponent fly into the ground." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that that comment should be taken as from POV someone used to flying planes with very light elevators. Whenever the
balance of controls comes up with the Spitfire it's heavy ailerons and light elevator. With bigger wings you need less change
in AOA to achieve a change in lift so you don't need to jack the tail up or down as far. 109 wings are loaded heavier, it
needs slats to get enough AOA to land! I've read here that in IL2 the non-slat critical AOA is 12 deg and for slats it's 18.
=IF= it's true then to get that 18 deg the 109 has to pitch up another half as much as the others, and it has to be held there.

stalkervision
09-15-2009, 04:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Treetop64:
Oleg needs to find someone with the patience and a particular talent to work on AI. Writing, and debugging, AI maneuvers in a hard-core flight sim such as this can't be the easiest job in the world. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes indeed. I totally agree T/T.

WTE_Galway
09-15-2009, 05:38 PM
If by "corkscrew dive" they mean a spiral dive I am not sure that an extreme airframe breaking high G spiral dive is actually modeled in IL2 ... spiral dives kill more noob real life pilots than spins.

M_Gunz
09-15-2009, 08:41 PM
Descending 360's pulling as much sustained G as you can stand while keeping at or below maneuver speed?
I have (maybe translated, maybe not) transcripts from Polish BoB pilots and one described doing just that in a Hurricane
to avoid getting shot to bits by a 109E. Long story short, he's the one who wrote home about it later.

stalkervision
09-15-2009, 10:28 PM
Ya but pulling too many g you will black out in either plane. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

of course it's imposable to shoot someone doing this. Can't get lead..

WTE_Galway
09-15-2009, 10:53 PM
meh .. a distinguishing feature of a spiral dive is you cannot control speed it keeps increasing rapidly until the aircraft eventually breaks or the ground finds you first ... recovery is simple though, once you realize you are in an unstable flight condition just level the wings and avoid pulling back on the stick.

Aircraft in Il2 do not seem prone to spiral dive.

knightflyte
09-15-2009, 11:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> No, the "trickiness" I have noticed is all in silly maneuvers the ai in 46 uses.

I was doing some "46" screenies and watched the ai fight.

What a sight it was and by this I don't mean realistic.

I guess I am spoiled the BOB/WOV AI is worlds better and I mean that.

Boy I hope Oleg doesn't keep this present ai system in SOW.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

That is why the guys keep working on this ai in the mods forum. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


As much as I'm looking forward to Sow:BoB. I'll be seriously dissappointed should there not be exponential advances in AI.

Fo some reason I've never been able to get quite comfortable in the BoB:WoV cockpits. It's an ergodynamic thing. A Hurri's a Hurri. A Spit's a Spit. I can't explain why WoV never felt comfortable enough for me to continue playing where as IL2 felt like a flying glove. It fit perfectly. (I also hated that bloke yelling in my ear: "SHOOT HIM!!! SHOOT HIM!!!")


BUT. The AI in BoB;WoV really is beyond IL2.

I've been flying RoF for the last six weeks. I've fired IL2 up a few times, but primarily it's been RoF. Well, I literally just got done playing IL2 a few minutes ago. I STILL love this game, but after playing RoF where the planes actually try to use energy tactics in ways I've never experienced in IL2, it feels a bit shallow now.

Hey. Seven years on my hard drive. It can't be that bad can it? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

M_Gunz
09-16-2009, 03:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
meh .. a distinguishing feature of a spiral dive is you cannot control speed it keeps increasing rapidly until the aircraft eventually breaks or the ground finds you first ... recovery is simple though, once you realize you are in an unstable flight condition just level the wings and avoid pulling back on the stick.

Aircraft in Il2 do not seem prone to spiral dive. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What do you call it when you sustain 4.5 G 360's in a plane that can maintain level 360's only up to 3 G? One only has to
turn enough to keep the pursuit from getting a lead shot.

Whatever it is, it was done so how about a descending spiral? Even a balsa glider can do that!

stalkervision
09-16-2009, 07:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by knightflyte:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> No, the "trickiness" I have noticed is all in silly maneuvers the ai in 46 uses.

I was doing some "46" screenies and watched the ai fight.

What a sight it was and by this I don't mean realistic.



I guess I am spoiled the BOB/WOV AI is worlds better and I mean that.

Boy I hope Oleg doesn't keep this present ai system in SOW.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

That is why the guys keep working on this ai in the mods forum. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


As much as I'm looking forward to Sow:BoB. I'll be seriously dissappointed should there not be exponential advances in AI.

Fo some reason I've never been able to get quite comfortable in the BoB:WoV cockpits. It's an ergodynamic thing. A Hurri's a Hurri. A Spit's a Spit. I can't explain why WoV never felt comfortable enough for me to continue playing where as IL2 felt like a flying glove. It fit perfectly. (I also hated that bloke yelling in my ear: "SHOOT HIM!!! SHOOT HIM!!!")


BUT. The AI in BoB;WoV really is beyond IL2.

I've been flying RoF for the last six weeks. I've fired IL2 up a few times, but primarily it's been RoF. Well, I literally just got done playing IL2 a few minutes ago. I STILL love this game, but after playing RoF where the planes actually try to use energy tactics in ways I've never experienced in IL2, it feels a bit shallow now.

Hey. Seven years on my hard drive. It can't be that bad can it? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


The one thing I seriously scared of is SOW's ai being the same as Il-2's. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Oleg has mentioned he doesn't think il-2's ai needs any improvement a few times before. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I am crossing my fingers twice and my toes and hoping this isn't the case with sow. It would be a serious disappointment for me to have wonderful realistic graphics and a IL-2 type ai that does really stupid silly maneuvers no pilot IRL would ever do. It would just about ruin the game for me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

I mean there are obviously a whole lot of people who don't like M/P like I and I just wish someone would understand our point of view too.

knightflyte I know what you talking about stupid radio chatter. You can turn that off in the bdg section buddy. I always fly the 109 so it's no problem. I don't understand german anyway. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

knightflyte
09-16-2009, 05:43 PM
Wht? They don't yell out the German word for poop in BoB:WoV? LOL

My nephew is 11. I got him into IL2. The only plane he hates to fly is the IL2 because of the rear gunner yelling "OH NOOOooooooooooooooooooooo!" LOL

As far as SoW's AI? I hope Oleg isn't that thick headed to believe a 9 year old gaming engine has sufficient AI to be used in a spanking new Engine. When you have Blenhems with energy manuevers that rank next to an I-16 there's problems. (I'm slightly over stating, but you get the idea)

If Oleg's plans are to eventually design a cross genre engine he will improve AI.


Love the game, but with time passing the deficiencies are harder to overlook. That's no fault to 1C et all. It just shows that tech moves on and improves. That's part of life.