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MikkOwl
02-18-2010, 12:14 AM
http://aviation-history.com/messerschmitt/bf110-7a.jpg

I have only found A SINGLE GUIDE on how to fly it - the WWII online wiki article. Nothing else. Here it is (and it is not bad, but there should be more out there): http://wiki.wwiionline.com/index.php/Bf110 Surely we have better information available so many years later. Aces here have more flight time and experience than any real WW2 pilot had, and the benefit of all the experience preserved from the WW2 pilots.

I imagine that P-38 flying tactics can be applied to the Bf 110 to some extent so feel free to share that if you know anything about how to fly the P-38. The planes are not that dissimilar. The 110 is a bit less agile while having a rear pair of eyes and a rear firing gun position. Climbs worse too and all that. But still.

To cover situations I commonly experience. What to do when...

1. Having lots of altitude above enemy fighter. How to bounce? Both if already detected and if not detected.

2. Coming near enemy fighter at comparable altitudes. Both with altitude and near the deck. And both when spotted and when not yet detected (the fighter highly likely to engage in dogfight due to superior maneuverability).

3. When about to be bounced by fighter. At altitude and when near the deck (especially if it keeps up the energy tactics).

4. When finding a fighter on one's six at comparable energy states, both at altitude and on the deck (under no circumstances do I want to hear anything about switching to gunner position and using the mouse).

5. Bomber without escort, catching up with it.

6. General air combat maneuvers that work and don't work in the Bf 110's. Yo-yo's are obviously one that work, and possibly long range shooting going head on since having much more system redudancy, heavier weapons and no convergence problems. Snap rolls? Barrel rolls? Slips with tons of flaps forcing a quick overshoot (like Stukas during BoB)? Hammerhead types?

7. Opinions on the regular loadout version (2xMG FF/M or 151s with 4xMg17). Are the Mg-17's useful at all? They have lots of ammo and they are always converged.

8. BordKanone 3.7 (Can shoot down bombers at 2km almost though aiming is difficult if much more than 1km. I brought this into combat before and shot at tempests busy chasing someone or running away, and they rarely seemed to notice the single light grey streaks coming past them. I guess they all expect the blue tracers of the 151 cannons. It especially seems like a fun proposal to try to gun down people running away on the deck, since it shoots super accurately and far with little drop, and a single hit is all it takes).

9. 2xMk.108 nose cannons instead of 4xMg17's. I think my two kills (one was a Thunderbolt near the deck and I was follpowing on it's six through some wild maneuvers. The other I think was a spitfire that turned in front of me) were done with the Mk.108's. How badly do they affect maneuvering? They don't weigh that much. They have some drop but they actually have higher velocity, and overtake, the 151's after a few hundred meters because the shells are so heavy they don't slow down as much from the air resistance).

10. MG 151 gunpods.

11. Offline I can do snap rolls often in the 110, but online it almost never works. Have ping of 140-180. Any knowledge on this issue? I am fairly skilled with snap rolling in aircraft and it is amazingly useful against the more sluggish spit/tempest type planes.

Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi. You are my only hope.

MikkOwl
02-18-2010, 12:14 AM
http://aviation-history.com/messerschmitt/bf110-7a.jpg

I have only found A SINGLE GUIDE on how to fly it - the WWII online wiki article. Nothing else. Here it is (and it is not bad, but there should be more out there): http://wiki.wwiionline.com/index.php/Bf110 Surely we have better information available so many years later. Aces here have more flight time and experience than any real WW2 pilot had, and the benefit of all the experience preserved from the WW2 pilots.

I imagine that P-38 flying tactics can be applied to the Bf 110 to some extent so feel free to share that if you know anything about how to fly the P-38. The planes are not that dissimilar. The 110 is a bit less agile while having a rear pair of eyes and a rear firing gun position. Climbs worse too and all that. But still.

To cover situations I commonly experience. What to do when...

1. Having lots of altitude above enemy fighter. How to bounce? Both if already detected and if not detected.

2. Coming near enemy fighter at comparable altitudes. Both with altitude and near the deck. And both when spotted and when not yet detected (the fighter highly likely to engage in dogfight due to superior maneuverability).

3. When about to be bounced by fighter. At altitude and when near the deck (especially if it keeps up the energy tactics).

4. When finding a fighter on one's six at comparable energy states, both at altitude and on the deck (under no circumstances do I want to hear anything about switching to gunner position and using the mouse).

5. Bomber without escort, catching up with it.

6. General air combat maneuvers that work and don't work in the Bf 110's. Yo-yo's are obviously one that work, and possibly long range shooting going head on since having much more system redudancy, heavier weapons and no convergence problems. Snap rolls? Barrel rolls? Slips with tons of flaps forcing a quick overshoot (like Stukas during BoB)? Hammerhead types?

7. Opinions on the regular loadout version (2xMG FF/M or 151s with 4xMg17). Are the Mg-17's useful at all? They have lots of ammo and they are always converged.

8. BordKanone 3.7 (Can shoot down bombers at 2km almost though aiming is difficult if much more than 1km. I brought this into combat before and shot at tempests busy chasing someone or running away, and they rarely seemed to notice the single light grey streaks coming past them. I guess they all expect the blue tracers of the 151 cannons. It especially seems like a fun proposal to try to gun down people running away on the deck, since it shoots super accurately and far with little drop, and a single hit is all it takes).

9. 2xMk.108 nose cannons instead of 4xMg17's. I think my two kills (one was a Thunderbolt near the deck and I was follpowing on it's six through some wild maneuvers. The other I think was a spitfire that turned in front of me) were done with the Mk.108's. How badly do they affect maneuvering? They don't weigh that much. They have some drop but they actually have higher velocity, and overtake, the 151's after a few hundred meters because the shells are so heavy they don't slow down as much from the air resistance).

10. MG 151 gunpods.

11. Offline I can do snap rolls often in the 110, but online it almost never works. Have ping of 140-180. Any knowledge on this issue? I am fairly skilled with snap rolling in aircraft and it is amazingly useful against the more sluggish spit/tempest type planes.

Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi. You are my only hope.

JtD
02-18-2010, 12:42 AM
I think you forgot one major factor:

Am I alone or do I fly with teammates - in other words, do I have numerical superiority or not?

Assuming the lone wolf approach, I'll almost solely use hit and run tactics. If I have altitude, I hit and then run, unless I can regain my advantage, if I don't have altitude, I'll skip the hit part and just run (in case I know I'm not being spotted, I'll be climbing to get the altitude I need).
Of course a lot depends on the opposition, if they are faster than you are they will inevitably run you down. While I usually descent to the deck during an all out run, I tend to leave some altitude in these cases, so I can try to force at least one overshoot before going back to an all out run. Since the roll rate is too slow for scissors and rudders not very responsive, I'll just be pulling and pushing the stick with a little roll. But then the 110 bleeds speed very quickly and no extended maneuvering is necessary. Do not forget to lower flaps in time.
Against bombers I'll be using head on or side approaches, as I usually do. The 110 offers a larger to hit area, so one might want to fire from a bit further out.
My preferred loadout is the standard one, actually the standard one plus 2x500kg of bombs. I think that MK108's rate 10 out of 10 on the uncool scale, so I try to not use them. They are certainly the more effective weapon for only a little effect in performance. The Bk37 is good for ground attack, not good for air combat. I never tried gondolas on this plane, it has plenty of firepower without. Gondolas severely effect the performance, and that's too much of a trade off for me. My advice to folks flying with 4x20+2x30 in this plane would be "learn to shoot". http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

MikkOwl
02-18-2010, 01:04 AM
Both with and without wingmen can/should be discussed http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Tach weave seems interesting, or drag and bag in general.

Good information there. Are you saying that you avoid the Mk 108's because of cool-factor rather than utility though? They have very severely major firepower but aren't all that easy to hit with, and of course some performance hit and much less ammo than the 4xMG17's. They are most excellent for a bounce of any type, since a single hit is usually enough for most types of aircraft. None of the other propeller aircraft seem to be able to shoot 30mm (always wing mounted) without major instability of the pitch/yaw and even some roll. Prop hub 109's are an exception. On an unrelated note, why are they extremely uncool for you?

And yes, gunpods and M108's is really ridiculous.

The Bk 3.7 seems to really work for shooting down bombers however. After having practiced for an hour, it seems to be fully possible to hit bombers from up to 2km away (tail chase), and the high explosive shell is brutal. There's plenty of ammo too, about 75 shells I think, taking a long time to expend. But I have certainly had no luck at all versus fighters, even when on their six. Very hard to hit. Maybe if they are running away flat and straight.

So for having someone on the tail, vertical scissoring with some roll element to throw them off more, and attempt to force an overshoot (flaps).

In general you seem to treat it 100% as an energy fighter with a limit to one pass, and only if not spotted.

M_Gunz
02-18-2010, 01:22 AM
Bf-110 was not competitive even with Hurricanes during the BoB, or at least not up to the job of escort.
In some roles like night fighter it was very good. As a front line fighter it was 2nd rate at best.
Example is the roles it was used in as the war progressed. If it was good in the fighter niche then you
would expect to find it there past or even until mid-war. Not to feel bad, it outlasted the Fairey Battle!

MikkOwl
02-18-2010, 01:37 AM
I agree it was not good against fighters in many (but not all) situations. It did well for itself when doing combat air patrols over England with altitude and no bombers to have to stay with. But since sending up Hurricanes (and the occasional Spitfire) to try to fight them off British air space was wasteful, from what I read the British stopped challenging them, making the sorties rather unproductive. Brits could see when actual bombers were coming in anyway on their radar.

I do believe also that it was very good against British bombers during the day as well, not that they bothered flying much during the day after some initial attempts.

But regardless of how poorly or well it compared, someone has to fly the thing :P There's tons of planes being worse than others in various situations, yet playing on the strengths and and trying to make the best of what one has, just like reality, is the only option.

Consider the P-38, being a rival heavy fighter. It shot down lots of super maneuverable A6M Zeros and other planes with energy tactics. Richard Bong, a P-38 ace, used to start shooting from far away and go head on from what I recall, pressing the attack home with superior firepower.

Romanator21
02-18-2010, 01:42 AM
Mk 108s are, in my opinion unnecessary, and too difficult to deal with, except when hitting heavy bombers. They were never used on aircraft in the Eastern Front. I prefer 2x or 4x 20mm over 2x 30 mm any day. They are also very loud and attract attention.

Bk 3.7 is an excellent ground attack weapon. It's pointed downward slightly, so I don't think it's an effective tool for air to air. If you can afford more than one pass over some tanks, then definitely use it.

As for fighting other aircraft, the Bf-110 can be lethal. The key is to fly it like any BnZ aircraft. I usually climb to 6000 meters to start. This depends on the situation; if people are in the mud, I may be at 3000 m minimum. I never run after a bnz on the deck. I always try to regain at least some altitude to maneuver, and in the worst case, to bail safely. Bring at least 50% gas to allow for a climb and loiter-time (I basically circle, sometimes for over an hour, looking for a good opportunity, and I don't risk attacking an opponent who may gain an advantage/awareness of me). In the zoom I never allow the plane to go less than 300 kph. If it does, I immediately lower the nose. You can not afford to be slow in this plane because whatever little maneuverability you have will be totally lost. In some instances I make the lower speed limit 350 or 400 kph, depending on the situation.

It does not like lone-wolf tactics - you will need a wingman always. I've gotten away with lone-wolf missions in closed-pit where the opponent doesn't have the luxury of F6, and where there are a few other friendly aircraft in the vicinity to take care of him if he does decide to chase me.

The key is patience (more than any other fighter) because very often an opponent can turn out of the way quickly, and it's hard to set up a good boom/zoom. If a determined fighter is on your tail, it can be tricky to survive. All in all, I've had some of my best online sorties in this plane.

TinyTim
02-18-2010, 02:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Romanator21:
Bk 3.7 is an excellent ground attack weapon. It's pointed downward slightly, so I don't think it's an effective tool for air to air. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What version of the game are you using? I remember this cannon being pointed a few degrees downwards from the sighting line, but that was literaly ages ago (close to when Bf110 was introduced into a sim if memory serves me well) and was quickly corrected in a subsequent patch. Now it shoots very accurately straight forward ever since.

As a side note - I wonder why (historically) they never put a 4x20mm cannon battery into a Bf110 nose. I'd much prefer two additional Mg-151s over Mk-108s. The gunpod on the other side gives with one and takes with the other hand and maybe I'd take it only for heavy bomber destroying if Mk-108s wouldn't be available, and even this only when I'd be sure there's no escort fighters around.

X32Wright
02-18-2010, 02:07 AM
Historically the Zerstorers (Bf-110) were escorted by an assortment of fighters and bombers even with Stukas.

Its main defensive move is to CIRCLE each other (Wolf defense think this is called) when attcked so each one can shoot at an incoming plane that tries to get into the circle.

If you are flying alone then you need to be very high to avoid getting shot and to use the 'dive and climb' tactics outlined by Romanator. The point is to NEVER fly alone in a Zerstorer.

JtD
02-18-2010, 02:10 AM
I could find 4 tracks of me in the 110, which I watched now.

In the 1st I'm sporting the Bk37 for some tank busting action. As I went up and down busting tanks (AAA was down already), a Tempest showed up high. I picked up a little bit of speed, did a tight turn on the deck, then abruptly exited the turn in a steep climb, which I then ended in a sharp turn to the other side. Eventually I flew an S figure both horizontally and vertically. The other pilot could not get his guns to bear, fire a short burst and missed, and then flew past me. My gunner fired a short burst and missed, but my final sharp turn brought the Tempest into my front and as my nose was falling past his extending plane, I fired a single shot and took the wing off. So, in that case, 1vs1, bounced at low altitude, evaded by slow speed turning, forcing an overshoot and using it. Worked like a charm.
The 2nd track does not contain any plane-plane action, I'm just bombing a ship with my favorite loadout of 2x20+4x7.92+2x500kg.
In the 3rd I was again going for ground targets, same loadout as before, and as I was closing in on the targets I found a Spitfire going for a low flying Ju-88. I dived down on it, but missed, but as it kept focussing on the Ju-88 I felt invited to another pass, which I had to abort as the Ju-88 dropped the bombs and I did not want to get caught in the blast. When I came back for the third attack, the Spitfire had changed focus. It eventually tried to dodge me by pulling up sharply in front of me, not expecting me to be able to match this, but with the use of flaps I managed to get a firing solution and shot it down. So, in this case, 2vs1, bouncing someone at low alt, staying in the fight and outmaneuvered a Spitfire in a slow speed fight. I then went to bomb the targets.
In the fourth I used the same loadout as before, took off, and found a Spitfire coming towards our base, chasing a damaged 109. So I got on his 6 and shot it down, while it was a bit further out and slowly extending, it didn't do much dodging. I then went to bomb. Afterwards I decided to do a bit of dogfighting, so I got up to altitude, looking for victims. I found two Spitfires attacking a 109 below me, so I dove down, and while one of the Spitfires shot at the 109, I shot at it and shot it down. Clean bounce. This situation evolved into a furball, with a couple more guys showing up from either side, with numerical superiority on my side throughout. I kept getting in for a sharp turn or two, then extending (not really far), climbing (not really high) and coming back, and managed to bag other two Spitfires. I'd just call it energy fighting. In that case, I allowed myself to go low and slow because the situation was strongly in my favour.

Looking at the tracks I have to admit that I'm using slow speed maneuvers a lot more than I thought I would, all kills except one involve slow speed turning - however, not one time in a sustained maneuvre. If I had to dodge a faster plane, it was mostly about timing my slow speed stuff right.

JtD
02-18-2010, 02:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MikkOwl:
Are you saying that you avoid the Mk 108's because of cool-factor rather than utility though? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> On an unrelated note, why are they extremely uncool for you? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't like cannons that kill with a single hit. Every noob can get lucky once, and spoil your day. I prefer weapons where skill is more decisive. I also tend to get annoyed if my plane explodes from a single hit, which is far more likely to happen with big cannons. I prefer to have the chance and to give others the chance to bail out.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">In general you seem to treat it 100% as an energy fighter with a limit to one pass, and only if not spotted. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I am on my own, yes. But apparently these situations are more rare than I thought, so I do use the 110 as a dogfighter with slow speed maneuvering.

Erkki_M
02-18-2010, 03:59 AM
Where the 110 really shines is the bomber hunting... In my current Bombing The Reich game its still mid-43 and the 8th cant escorts its Fortresses all the way in and back, unless it seems that their target is within the escorts' range, I simply wait until the escorts have to leave the bombers and then strike with everything I have, 110s armed with MK108s and rocket launchers first... Ten 110s do about twice the amount of damage and typically survive with little or no casualties compared to say, 3-4 Gruppes of 109s(that usually have about 20% damaged and 2-5% destroyed casualties), attacking those 100-300 B17F boxes. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


In IL-2 it is best as an assault plane, though unlike IL-2/10 its still fairly vulnerable to even HMG fire. Its without a doubt the best Germans have against soft targets, and nearly as good as a Ju87D5 vs. armor. Its not quite as dependant on escorts as the Stuka though, and if not bounced, it can even avoid interception by slower allied fighters such as Spit V, P40, Jak-1, I16 etc.

In the kind of scenarios we have in game(multiplayer) it doesnt really get to use its real strengths, incredible firepower and long range, but is typically a bad choise thanks to its low speed, maneuverability and(relative) vulnerability(for its class and role).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Its main defensive move is to CIRCLE each other (Wolf defense think this is called) when attcked so each one can shoot at an incoming plane that tries to get into the circle.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was called the "Spanish Circle" or "Spanish Fly". http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

EDIT: You might want to ask a guy named Oktoberfest about flying the 110 at the WarClouds forums; afaik he has no trouble dealing with P51s, Tempests or late Spits. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

PanzerAce
02-18-2010, 04:10 AM
The -110 is a great plane to fly, and you can get a bunch of kills, IF you know what you're doing, IF you know how the -110 acts, and IF you have a -190 flying nearby to keep climbers off you. It packs a truly massive amount of firepower for it's time period, but on the other hand, short of '39-mid '40 birds, it's completely outclassed in every other way. The best tactic I've found is to talk to a -109 or -190 pilot before takeoff, and arrange for them to escort you as they would a bomber. Since -110s tend to attract attention, you can usually find someone willing to go with you to bag the guys that try to climb after you.

If you *don't* have any backup....better get used to flying backwards, since the AI in the -110 sucks IMHO.

MikkOwl
02-18-2010, 04:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Romanator wrote:
Mk 108s are, in my opinion unnecessary, and too difficult to deal with, except when hitting heavy bombers. They were never used on aircraft in the Eastern Front. I prefer 2x or 4x 20mm over 2x 30 mm any day. They are also very loud and attract attention. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Difficult, as in lower rate of fire, shell drop etc? In my experience in IL-2, the muzzle flash and smoke from having them a meter or two past the windshield can sometimes be distracting. But as for hits, I think they aren't that bad (the RPM is rather high, have to look up exactly how high, I think close to the other cannons). On an interesting note, they are aimed upwards on the 110, which helps with the drop and, I believe, makes it even easier to score hits with when fired at the same time as the 151's under the nose at something, both far away and close.

Are they really louder though? And isn't the blue tracers from the 151's far, far more attention grabbing than the noise? The Mk 108's have yellow blob tracers that can be mistaken for allied cannons, especially at a distance, but also closer. I always ID planes quickly by the colors of their tracers.

Also, the Mk 108's are hellishly good at killing anything on the ground except tanks. From testing it kills probably 10 times more and better than the 151's. Some stuff doesn't even seem to be affected by 151's.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Bk 3.7 is an excellent ground attack weapon. It's pointed downward slightly, so I don't think it's an effective tool for air to air. If you can afford more than one pass over some tanks, then definitely use it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I only tried twice and I couldn't kill anything, but I was aiming for the rear of the tanks, not the top. Shermans. The downward thing is not true on the 110-G2 as far as I can tell. But the muzzle is very very low in contrast to the revi gunsight, which does affect aim a bit when shooting at small things at close range. Give it a shot for real (try quick mission) vs B-17's from way far out. One has to compensate a lot for bullet drop, but one can check range with revi sight circles and learn how much to compensate at different ranges. It convinced me that it's something to use when pursuing B-17's from out of their guns range effectively enough (online it is often very hard to be able to do anything but try to catch up with B-17's as there's no recon + time to be able to climb up to be in the right place at the right time. The maps are too small too). It is the massive lethality at range that made me reconsider this weapon for the job.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The key is to fly it like any BnZ aircraft. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
It has a pretty low maximum dive speed though (at least compared to late war fighters) which I think is a problem - can't gain back that energy the massive altitude gave. Then again, passing with too much energy makes it pretty hard to hit anything too, as the window is so small.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It does not like lone-wolf tactics - you will need a wingman always. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
This must be true, but usually not possible. These types of planes have firepower but not maneuverability. The enemy can't shoot at everyone at the same time, and they can't be doing guns defense when on someone's tail so.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I wonder why (historically) they never put a 4x20mm cannon battery into a Bf110 nose. I'd much prefer two additional Mg-151s over Mk-108s. The gunpod on the other side gives with one and takes with the other hand and maybe I'd take it only for heavy bomber destroying if Mk-108s wouldn't be available, and even this only when I'd be sure there's no escort fighters around. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Someone whose relative or friend or whatever were involved with 110's in the lower eastern Europe in mid-late war, said they started putting on extra 151's instead of 108's. But I don't recall if it was gunpod or nose installation. It's not impossible that they field modded it - seeing as the 108's fit. They used the 151's for B-17 hunting during daytime in particular.

And yes, I wonder too, if it is true. Assuming the pilot knows how to aim, having four CENTER mounted 151's would be incredibly brutal up to long range. The Tempests have 4 Hispanos in the wings, and that seems to kill just about anything they hit, but they have convergence issues (then again, I wonder if those pilots even set up convergence, since it doesn't take much hits on a fighter with a late war HS 20mm, probably just one in most cases, to mess them up good).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Historically the Zerstorers (Bf-110) were escorted by an assortment of fighters and bombers even with Stukas. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Unsure about this. The heavy fighers escorted? That never happened, and is a myth. The 110 fighter-bomber (high speed bombing) in BoB did have Bf 109 escorts however flying high above.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Its main defensive move is to CIRCLE each other (Wolf defense think this is called) when attcked so each one can shoot at an incoming plane that tries to get into the circle.

If you are flying alone then you need to be very high to avoid getting shot and to use the 'dive and climb' tactics outlined by Romanator. The point is to NEVER fly alone in a Zerstorer. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ah yes, the Luftberry circle. Don't think there's much opportunity for that in IL-2 online, and I don't think it's going to work in online environments even if there were enough pilots. Hurricanes also used this tactic, but 109's could just climb up and dive down, below and to the side for example, then come up at high speed flying through the circle, shooting a Hurricane down in the process. The British would just wait, I think, until the 110's started getting low on fuel and broke the circle, then they attacked (with mega altitude advantage).

And alone? What about my AI Bordfunker (gunner)? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif
Online I have tried to tag along other planes, especially pairs of 190's or 109's. I tell them I can be bait, flying below them, since they are so much faster and climb better that I fly forwards level while they are climbing above me, parallel course. If someone goes for me, they can go after them. If someone goes for them, the fight is likely to lose altitude fast and I can use the mighty cannons on whoever is after them. Have not had much experience with this but the tactic seems very sound.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I could find 4 tracks of me in the 110, which I watched now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks for taking the time! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">my final sharp turn brought the Tempest into my front and as my nose was falling past his extending plane, I fired a single shot and took the wing off. So, in that case, 1vs1, bounced at low altitude, evaded by slow speed turning, forcing an overshoot and using it. Worked like a charm. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
What did you hit him with? In that config you probably only had the 4xmg17 and the one Bordkanone. That's some good shooting if it was the BK, and some amazing damage if it was the Mg17's. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Regarding the overshooting, that's exactly what I have been thinking about the most (since climbing all day isn't so interesting unless there's a B-17 at the end of the rainbow). If it's just one on one at that moment, going so slow they overshoot (if they come in with extra energy, which easily happens), then get a moment of them in the sights for the nose armament. Have to learn how to aim better at stuff flying away from me though, especially those quick Tempests. It's not like shooting at bombers.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It eventually tried to dodge me by pulling up sharply in front of me, not expecting me to be able to match this, but with the use of flaps I managed to get a firing solution and shot it down. So, in this case, 2vs1, bouncing someone at low alt, staying in the fight and outmaneuvered a Spitfire in a slow speed fight. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is how I got my second (so far, online) kill, except it was a Thunderbolt and while I didn't bounce it from above, I did surprise him from behind near the deck. But I didn't do much with my initial shot (not enough experience shooting stuff). Like your Spitfire, he at one point pulled up into a steep climb, that I had no problems matching, without flaps. As we both slowed down and started to nose down (he was doing a hammerhead I believe) I managed to hit him with the 108 taking off part of a wing. Those P-47's don't turn all that great at lower speeds, and he had to maneuver since he was well in range of the mega cannons with no altitude. Not hard to keep up for a while.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I have to admit that I'm using slow speed maneuvers a lot more than I thought I would, all kills except one involve slow speed turning - however, not one time in a sustained maneuvre. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Interesting. It is said that the 110 has good turning radius (especially for it's size), and this is not the same as turn time at all, nor is it equal to sustained turning radius. Maybe it can pull a fairly tight turn if it allows itself to bleed off a lot of speed in the process?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I don't like cannons that kill with a single hit. Every noob can get lucky once, and spoil your day. I prefer weapons where skill is more decisive. I also tend to get annoyed if my plane explodes from a single hit, which is far more likely to happen with big cannons. I prefer to have the chance and to give others the chance to bail out. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think that I would allow myself the 108's easily if in a 110 to begin with. Noob or not, that's not an 'easy kills' plane at all, even with 108's. Also, the 108's weigh more, have more projectile drop, heavier ammo, far less ammo, lower rate of fire, louder, more muzzle flash/smoke, and affect the handling of the plane, than the Mg17's they replace. Especially when talking about facing something like 4x latewar Hispano cannons on a Tempest. Those cannons are much better than the 151's even. And that plane has no gunsight unit blocking the view either, and massive advantages in pretty much everything.

And, anyone can get lucky with any weapon http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

How do the 4 x MG17's work out? Useful at all? Unconverged MG's, even 4+, seem absolutely useless against planes when firing completely from the rear (too much deflection on impact), but do well when doing snapshots on cockpit and engine area. What about this tight package? It's not quite like the P-38's 4x12.7mm package..

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You might want to ask a guy named Oktoberfest about flying the 110 at the WarClouds forums; afaik he has no trouble dealing with P51s, Tempests or late Spits </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Great Idea. I have an account there and I only really fly on War-clouds since I can't stand flying without 6DoF, and they permit it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The -110 is a great plane to fly, and you can get a bunch of kills, IF you know what you're doing, IF you know how the -110 acts, and IF you have a -190 flying nearby to keep climbers off you. It packs a truly massive amount of firepower for it's time period, but on the other hand, short of '39-mid '40 birds, it's completely outclassed in every other way. The best tactic I've found is to talk to a -109 or -190 pilot before takeoff, and arrange for them to escort you as they would a bomber. Since -110s tend to attract attention, you can usually find someone willing to go with you to bag the guys that try to climb after you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think that it's okay to even fly low down if having those escorts up there. It allows even more people to come after you (and in many cases, the bases are so close and people impatient that they don't bother climbing all that much unless there's some B17 stuff going on). Could always shoot the 108's into the ground now and then as it produces nice big explosions, drawing attention http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Or the 151's in the air in front, as they are seen at very long distances and clearly identifies you as card carrying member of the Nazi party (even from before Hitler took power http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ).

Getting someone to go with is definitely the best thing to do. And regarding the 'for it's time period' part, I agree. The War Clouds server is constantly late 1944 stuff now minus the good stuff Germany had at the time (262's, Comets, etc). The G-2 is from 1942. Imagine the enormous gap there, many years obsolete heavy fighter (out of all classes) against the latest cutting edge allied fighters. I don't feel bad about bringing 108 cannons for sure. But anyway, I keep thinking about the day Storm of War arrives. Imagine being used to the G-2 vs 1944 fighters, and suddenly you get an even more agile plane with basically the same firepower, but much more agile (the C-4 models were far lighter and better turning due to less bombing stuff and other equipment), and the opponents suddenly have planes even a bit older as well as slower and far worse armed than your own (Hurricane Mk.I mainly). Without the Mk 108's on the War Clouds server, all their planes pretty much outgun one's G-2 even.

JtD
02-18-2010, 05:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MikkOwl:
Thanks for taking the time! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, my pleisure. I sometimes like to watch old tracks. The first one was particularly enjoyable. I hit the guy with the Bk 37. I think the whole sortie is one of my top ten favorite sorties ever, and this kill is a fundamental part of it.

The 110 can pull a fairly tight turn with flaps down, but it is by far not as tight as a turn of most contemporary single engined fighters. Unless they are really slow, then you stand a chance to cut inside. But it is capable of a good instantaneous turn, which sometimes allows you to reach a firing solution - but then the other guy should be going down in flames. Because yes, it is going to bleed speed a lot.

Regarding the MK108, all that is just my opinion. I totally accept that there are other opinions around. I just don't like them. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
While I do take the MG17 most of the time, I rarely use them. In particular if I also have the 20mm MG FF. I only fire these. The tracers of the MG 17 will just spoil the aim, while the bullets will deal no real damage. The MG17 are more or less dead weight, but at least they aren't uncool. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Bremspropeller
02-18-2010, 06:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Bf-110 was not competitive even with Hurricanes during the BoB, or at least not up to the job of escort. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No fighter is competitive when the enemy has the luxury of either attacking from advantageous positions or not attacking at all.

That's propably the most common misunderstanding about the 110 during BoB.

stalkervision
02-18-2010, 06:54 AM
http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/9982/shot626.png

Erkki_M
02-18-2010, 07:58 AM
Just finished another day, a II./ZG76 pilot named Dusser shot 5 x B17 and damaged another 5 in a single sortie, RTBed safely. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Grand total tally for II./ZG76 was some 35 B17s + probably some 70 damaged, losses being only 1 damaged.

Too bad IL2 cant model real aerial war even close to what it was in the West. Does a pretty good job in the East front, though in smaller scale.

M_Gunz
02-18-2010, 08:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erkki_M:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Its main defensive move is to CIRCLE each other (Wolf defense think this is called) when attcked so each one can shoot at an incoming plane that tries to get into the circle.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was called the "Spanish Circle" or "Spanish Fly". http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In WWI it was known as the Lufbery Circle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lufbery_circle) after the originator Raoul Lufbery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raoul_Lufbery).

I don't know what to say about the wiki comment on the tactic being obsolete. I think the Thach Weave is better though,
you can go somewhere doing the weave while maintaining your cross-cover.

Jumoschwanz
02-18-2010, 08:38 AM
If you want to have some fun, install an old version of this flight sim with the first version of the bf110 that was included with it, it flew twice as good as the present version, but this was soon "fixed".....

M_Gunz
02-18-2010, 08:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Bf-110 was not competitive even with Hurricanes during the BoB, or at least not up to the job of escort. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No fighter is competitive when the enemy has the luxury of either attacking from advantageous positions or not attacking at all.

That's propably the most common misunderstanding about the 110 during BoB. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They went from being escorts to being escorted. I don't recall that being done to the 109's, who would escort them anyway?
Look at the 110-C and Hurri I on IL2Compare and then compare the 110-C to the 109E4, lastly the Hurri and the 109.

Of course pilot differences can easily make all that moot. I like the 110 but it is not a first-line fighter.
OTOH that does make it a great plane to make a statement with and the firepower... mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm! max-guns

MikkOwl
02-18-2010, 08:52 AM
The 110 was put in a position to fly at slow speed, alongside the bombers they were escorting, with the 109's mostly as top cover.

But it was never escorted when fighting as a fighter/escort. Myth. The fighter-bomber equipped 110's used as bombers were escorted by 109's, but that is in order.

Then the combat air patrols where it did very well too, shooting down various fighters.

I think it will be interesting to see how SoW will work out in MP, with people not having to stick to VIC formations or flying slow with bombers like that.

Erkki_M
02-18-2010, 08:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erkki_M:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Its main defensive move is to CIRCLE each other (Wolf defense think this is called) when attcked so each one can shoot at an incoming plane that tries to get into the circle.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was called the "Spanish Circle" or "Spanish Fly". http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In WWI it was known as the Lufbery Circle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lufbery_circle) after the originator Raoul Lufbery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raoul_Lufbery).

I don't know what to say about the wiki comment on the tactic being obsolete. I think the Thach Weave is better though,
you can go somewhere doing the weave while maintaining your cross-cover. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

True - Spanish circle was the name that at least Germans and their allies(including Finns, Hans Wind mentions in his lecture series on aerial combat it to be Spanish circle too) knew it by, English-speaking air forces used and still use the Luftbery circle.

MikkOwl
02-18-2010, 09:10 AM
Oktoberfest found the 110 topic on the 1C official forums on his own and wrote a huge, awesome reply! Here's a link to it:

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?p=144483

M_Gunz
02-18-2010, 09:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erkki_M:
True - Spanish circle was the name that at least Germans and their allies(including Finns, Hans Wind mentions in his lecture series on aerial combat it to be Spanish circle too) knew it by, English-speaking air forces used and still use the Luftbery circle. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A generation later and after so many years without an active air force and then first combat was over Spain.
Someone there remembered the tactic. I wonder if the Russians who were there too also used the term Spanish Circle?

Sillius_Sodus
02-18-2010, 10:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erkki_M:
True - Spanish circle was the name that at least Germans and their allies(including Finns, Hans Wind mentions in his lecture series on aerial combat it to be Spanish circle too) knew it by, English-speaking air forces used and still use the Luftbery circle. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A generation later and after so many years without an active air force and then first combat was over Spain.
Someone there remembered the tactic. I wonder if the Russians who were there too also used the term Spanish Circle? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Glorious and Heroic Stalin inspired Soviet trap for making destroy of greedy reactionary exploiting capitalist attackers of the peace loving people of the USSR"
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

MikkOwl
02-18-2010, 10:30 AM
Some data collected on the different gun packages. The 151/20 listed are the default lower-nose installation, and not the gun-pod. Included for comparison.

MG 151/20 x 2
650 rounds total
24 rounds per second
Total weight (not including attachment assembly/feed stuff/links) = 204.4kg of which 119kg is ammunition (and how much ligher one will be when no more ammo).
Combined fire power (damage it can inflict per second): 384
For how long: 27 seconds
Total carried fire power: 10 368

Mg17 x 4
4027 rounds total
80 rounds per second
Total weight: 141.5kg, of which 100.7kg ammunition.
Combined fire power: 80
For how long: 50.3 seconds
Total carried fire power: 4027

Mk 108 x 2
270 rounds total
21 rounds per second
Total weight: 245.6kg, of which 129.6 is ammunition.
Total fire power: 1160
For how long: 12.9 seconds
Total carried fire power: 14 964

Mk 108 instead of Mg 17 option adds 104.1 extra kilo, 73.6% heavier (about the same weight as all the ammo for the Mg 17's), but when the ammo is out (and it happens fairly fast) it weighs 116kg, 25kg less than the fully loaded Mg 17 load out, or probably about the same with the same amount of shooting.

Bremspropeller
02-18-2010, 12:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">They went from being escorts to being escorted. I don't recall that being done to the 109's, who would escort them anyway?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mostly because of bad tatics and underestimating the use of RAF's radar-intercepts.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Look at the 110-C and Hurri I on IL2Compare and then compare the 110-C to the 109E4, lastly the Hurri and the 109. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm clearly not asesing RL a/c performance by looking into IL-Compare http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Graf1119
02-18-2010, 12:44 PM
So funny to watch the myths of the 110 be thrown about like so.

"BoB proved that the 110 needed escort when itself was escorting bombers!" HA!!!!

Read this thread...
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/...ighlight=110+britain (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=15776&highlight=110+britain)

Would you believe the 110 had a higher kill ratio than the 109 or Hurri in BoB and that almost equal to the Spitfire?

Or that the 110 was never, I repeat never used on free jagds during BoB. Only deep bomber escort missions per Goering's orders. Put a twin engine aircraft at a speed and height disadvantage...only one outcome. The 110s real drawback in that situation was its acceleration and maneuverability.

The 110 is surrounded by myths due to the BoB. When you actually read the stories and the facts you'll see why not only did the Zerstorerwaffe suffered heavily at the hands of the RAF but also the single engined Jagdwaffe as well. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Graf1119
02-18-2010, 12:48 PM
Oh yeah...

The Lufberry circles many LW and RAF pilots speak of. These were used for offensive as well as defensive purposes by the Zerstorer crews. Dig deep and you will see. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

TinyTim
02-18-2010, 12:51 PM
There is one thing 4 x Mg-17 is good at in air to air - that's lighting bomber fuel tanks on fire. However, it takes an extremely accurate shooting and is almost impossible to do from any other angle then dead 6, close range. This means you can only use them on targets that don't shoot back, and don't maneouver. However - B-25, A-20, Pe-2 or DB-3 wing root will light up like roman candle when accurately hit by only a few bullets from Mg-17.

And once the bomber is alight, it's doomed. Note however that B-17, B-24, or SB are tougher to set aflame with light MGs.

It's not a tactics to count on, but good to know in case you find yourself returning to base with cannons dry, and happen to stumble upon a lone unescorted bomber.

stalkervision
02-18-2010, 01:04 PM
If you all had BOB/WOV you would see how effective a squadron or two of 110's can really be when they are not escorting bombers in a direct,close support, method. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

you also have to remember the 110 pilots were the cream of the German flying corp.

I have played against them in a spitfire a few times and they can be quite nasty indeed. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Romanator21
02-18-2010, 01:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> What version of the game are you using? I remember this cannon being pointed a few degrees downwards from the sighting line, but that was literally ages ago </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, the first time I flew with the Bk 3.7 (Ace expansion pack) I noticed that it was pointed down. I never bothered to notice that it was corrected, even though I've flown with it a few times in '46. Still, I don't think it's an effective air to air weapon.

Again, it does very well against tanks. The rounds alternate between armor piercing and high explosive I think, so it may take a few rounds to get into a tank, but the rate of fire is high enough. When doing ground attack I set my convergence out to 1000 and use LMG to guide in the BK rounds. You can kill two or three tanks in a single pass, but there is enough ammo for several passes. Just don't get caught with your pants down by an allied fighter.

Frankthetank36
02-18-2010, 01:54 PM
Luftberry circles might make it easy to take out attacking fighters but I see the maneuver as being pretty pointless as it would leave the bombers open to attack and if performed over enemy territory, it would simply waste fuel.

DuckyFluff
02-18-2010, 03:26 PM
Oktoberfest and the 123 guys were so good in the 110s in War Clouds, that the War Clouds mods nobbled them.
They were shooting Spitfires and Ponies out of the sky in droves not to mention the bomber intercepting.
The red fighters whined so much about the 110s that WC stopped them being available,

Thats why all the 110 pilots left War Clouds and it was NEVER the same again.

Anyone that thinks 110s are easy meat never flew against Oktoberfest and the 123 Squad guys http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

TinyTim
02-18-2010, 03:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Romanator21:
Yeah, the first time I flew with the Bk 3.7 (Ace expansion pack) I noticed that it was pointed down. I never bothered to notice that it was corrected, even though I've flown with it a few times in '46. Still, I don't think it's an effective air to air weapon. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I see both the problem and an explanation of the problem in these words! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Romanator21:
Again, it does very well against tanks. The rounds alternate between armor piercing and high explosive I think, so it may take a few rounds to get into a tank, but the rate of fire is high enough. When doing ground attack I set my convergence out to 1000 and use LMG to guide in the BK rounds. You can kill two or three tanks in a single pass, but there is enough ammo for several passes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly, if there is one good thing about Bk 3.7 on a 110 is that it has nearly inexhaustible ammo supply of 72 rounds. Stuka cannons for comparison have 12 rounds each.

Anyway, I don't find the Bk 3.7 completely useless for air to air - with a bit of luck (and due to huge ammo supply and high accuracy of the weapon), you can get some spectacular sniping 1 hit 1 kill attacks at heavies from ranges above 1km! However, no enemy fighters should be anywhere around. But, I still wouldn't take it as a preferred weapon for anti-bomber missions. Busting ground targets with it however is another matter. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

Bremspropeller
02-18-2010, 04:21 PM
Thx for the Link, Graf http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Ba5tard5word
02-18-2010, 05:00 PM
I haven't really tried the BK 37 in the 110 yet, but in the Hs-129 (in UP 2.0) it's ok against tanks especially light ones. You should try its giant BK 7.5 cannon though, I think it might be badly modded because it's pretty useless against ground vehicles and seems to have no splash damage, but it's a one-hit wonder against even the biggest bombers...one shot and BOOM!

The BK 37 in comparison isn't great against enemy planes, the bullets seem to just punch through surfaces without doing much damage.

JG53Frankyboy
02-18-2010, 06:14 PM
in game , one of the most funniest "fight-couple" is the Bf110G-2 (NO MK108!) versus the Pe-3bis ! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Romanator21
02-18-2010, 07:22 PM
The Pe-3 has several advantages over the Bf-110 including the ability to catch fire! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Graf1119
02-19-2010, 08:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
Thx for the Link, Graf http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No problem mate. Makes for an interesting read eh? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

There was another debate over the 110 at LEMB but they are currently down now. Sad, it was very informative and much longer than the link I gave you.

Gammelpreusse
02-19-2010, 08:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
in game , one of the most funniest "fight-couple" is the Bf110G-2 (NO MK108!) versus the Pe-3bis ! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely, had that lineup with friends a couple months ago. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

110 will be my prime SOW ride anways. The only plane with propper firepower. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif

(though a propperly done Whirlwind could spark my interest as well)

JtD
02-19-2010, 08:17 AM
The 110 will be my SOW ride of choice, too. It will be interesting to see how competitive it is going to be. If bounced by a decent Spitfire pilot, there might not be much more to do then to just burst in flames. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Gammelpreusse
02-19-2010, 08:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JtD:
The 110 will be my SOW ride of choice, too. It will be interesting to see how competitive it is going to be. If bounced by a decent Spitfire pilot, there might not be much more to do then to just burst in flames. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think the trick in the 110 is not to be bounced, but to bounce http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

M_Gunz
02-19-2010, 08:46 AM
Will SOW have the amazingly hard to hit/kill crew members? I can hope for a realism toggle there.

MikkOwl
02-19-2010, 08:57 AM
To all: Oktoberfest (possibly the most respected 110 pilot mentioned in the community here?) did post a nice replay showing how to fly the 110 properly. In the 1C forums linked to earlier here.

Graf, thank you for that link as well. I spent some time reading it but there's much to go through and evaluate. I'm interested in getting the book of that one guy for sure. Having spoken so much with the veterans + more material, it must be better than most info out there.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Will SOW have the amazingly hard to hit/kill crew members? I can hope for a realism toggle there. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Suggesting IL-2 has this? How is it like compared to how it should be like? How would it affect things if SoW did it differently than IL-2?

Graf1119
02-19-2010, 09:48 AM
Yes, John Vasco is the Bf-110 expert to consult. I have most if not all of his books on the subject as the 110 is my favorite a/c.

I cannot wait either for SOW just to fly the 110 as well. Lets hope its given the attention she needs. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Bremspropeller
02-19-2010, 10:11 AM
Ah I see, the place is full of future <STRIKE>Zerstörer</STRIKE> Zerstäuber pilots http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

JtD
02-19-2010, 10:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MikkOwl:
To all: Oktoberfest (possibly the most respected 110 pilot mentioned in the community here?) did post a nice replay showing how to fly the 110 properly. In the 1C forums linked to earlier here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh well, that was a successful sortie but not really skillful or 110 related. Flying high and diving down on unsuspecting enemies is always going to work. Dual MK108 make it easy. Needs a bit of discipline, and that he displayed. I would have liked to see what he'd do when being bounced, it's usually more telling and much more interesting than seeing a good pilot just flying around and blowing up stuff.

And for the record, the best 110 pilot I know is LeVola of UKD servers. I didn't venture into WC much, so wouldn't know about Oktoberfest.

M_Gunz
02-19-2010, 11:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MikkOwl:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Will SOW have the amazingly hard to hit/kill crew members? I can hope for a realism toggle there. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Suggesting IL-2 has this? How is it like compared to how it should be like? How would it affect things if SoW did it differently than IL-2? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Knowing how it is in IL2, hit boxes for crew, including pilot whether AI or player are very small.

Oktoberfest_110
02-19-2010, 01:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JtD:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MikkOwl:
To all: Oktoberfest (possibly the most respected 110 pilot mentioned in the community here?) did post a nice replay showing how to fly the 110 properly. In the 1C forums linked to earlier here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh well, that was a successful sortie but not really skillful or 110 related. Flying high and diving down on unsuspecting enemies is always going to work. Dual MK108 make it easy. Needs a bit of discipline, and that he displayed. I would have liked to see what he'd do when being bounced, it's usually more telling and much more interesting than seeing a good pilot just flying around and blowing up stuff.

And for the record, the best 110 pilot I know is LeVola of UKD servers. I didn't venture into WC much, so wouldn't know about Oktoberfest. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hello JtD,

first of all, I never told I was a good pilot in the 110. I'm good (not too bad) in deflection shooting and good with teamwork. Alone, I'm absolutely zero.

The only thing the 110 requires (especially in late war environment) is patience and discipline.

And it's true that I find bouncing planes easier than start scisoring with them, which is clearly not the 110's strong point.

Having a decent team is great, unfortunately I lost all of the 123 guys 2 years ago and it's hard to find new wingmen to fly with. And lack of flying surely makes me less good than other more active 110 pilots.

BR.

Oktoberfest.

stalkervision
02-19-2010, 02:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
Ah I see, the place is full of future <STRIKE>Zerstörer</STRIKE> Zerstäuber pilots http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I can't wait for SOW to see them show their stuff.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

DuckyFluff
02-19-2010, 02:39 PM
"JtD, go try against Oktoberfest. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif "


Yes Jtd, have a go http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

TS_Sancho
02-19-2010, 02:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Oktoberfest_110:

Having a decent team is great, unfortunately I lost all of the 123 guys 2 years ago and it's hard to find new wingmen to fly with.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

One of the regulars over on Spits/109's flies with the tag 123_Pdog.

http://www.warbirdsofprey.org/....php?name=Stats_Page (http://www.warbirdsofprey.org/modules.php?name=Stats_Page)

He seems to be a good egg and is one of the better pilots who frequent the server.

Oktoberfest_110
02-19-2010, 03:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TS_Sancho:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Oktoberfest_110:

Having a decent team is great, unfortunately I lost all of the 123 guys 2 years ago and it's hard to find new wingmen to fly with.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

One of the regulars over on Spits/109's flies with the tag 123_Pdog.

http://www.warbirdsofprey.org/....php?name=Stats_Page (http://www.warbirdsofprey.org/modules.php?name=Stats_Page)

He seems to be a good egg and is one of the better pilots who frequent the server. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He's a good pilot http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But he was more an escort than a dedicated 110 pilot when 123 guys were flying on WC. He wasn't fanciing the 110 too much.

No, those I'm missing are, from 123 :
Simbo, Sturm, Klaw, Rizz, Spider and Wulf

Other 110 pilots I alsoflew with on regular basis were Zlovred, Sensei, Penetrator, Remo Willias, Easy kill and Citiera...

13 excellent 110 pilots, all of them. It was good time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Best sortie we had 16 110s in the air together in a big wing http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Sadly I lost the screenshot of it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Without those guys I'm nothing.

JtD
02-19-2010, 03:22 PM
Oktoberfest, I just meant that the track doesn't give away that much. If you have the discipline and 2xMK108, flying high and diving down is all you need to do. It is just air combat basics. Which you did execute well, no doubt about that.

But I had hoped to see a track of someone fighting his way out of a sh!tstorm, or something. Considering you had a bombrack attached, I'm fairly sure you've been there, too.

Saburo_0
02-19-2010, 10:16 PM
I've found this thread really enjoyable! The 110 has always been one of those a/c i liked, mostly because it looks cool and unusual imo. But the truth seems to be that it is a crud fighter if not a cr@p plane. Meaning it doesn't really have any advantages over opponents or do anything better than say a 190 does. That for me is not a bad thing, just makes it interesting.
I can see how deadly they could be with good teamwork giving the excellent firepower etc.

I fly mostly offline now, tho so trying to survive with AI wingmen becomes challenging. I think that is where I agree with Jtd that I'd love to see some tracks or get some tips on how to fly it when I screw up and this seems to happen a lot if I fly the designated flight plan in campaigns!)
Enjoy the 110 discussion a lot so hope someone else has something to add!
Cheers.

Oktoberfest_110
02-20-2010, 06:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JtD:
Oktoberfest, I just meant that the track doesn't give away that much. If you have the discipline and 2xMK108, flying high and diving down is all you need to do. It is just air combat basics. Which you did execute well, no doubt about that.

But I had hoped to see a track of someone fighting his way out of a sh!tstorm, or something. Considering you had a bombrack attached, I'm fairly sure you've been there, too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I know what you mean. I'll try to do new tracks of such situation. But usually this ends badly.

DuckyFluff
02-21-2010, 01:35 PM
Oktober....I may have access to some tracks of the 110 squad on WC sorties.....I will do some research. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

A Friend http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Scolar
02-22-2010, 01:12 PM
Twin engine fighters are the most enjoyable for me. I don't have much fun having to fight a twitchy single engine! Having said that although I've tried alot I've never got a successfull kill with the 110!

Bring on the whirlwind in Sow pweesE?

Ba5tard5word
02-22-2010, 01:31 PM
Try flying the 110 against Fairey Fulmars and Swordfishes in UP 2.0, it's a lot of fun. The AI Fulmars make a good dogfighting opponent but doesn't stand up to the 110's cannons.

The 110 is actually alright against AI Hurricanes, you just have to wait for them to get lazy and static then pounce on them, one burst of cannon fire should knock them out.

psykopatsak
02-24-2010, 02:34 PM
Due to thrashed joystick (and there fore degraded aiming skills) i find myself shooting down more with the tailgunner than anything else XD