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GbeTech
05-31-2010, 05:03 AM
Alright, I finished AC2 about 3 hours ago and up until now I've researched all the conspiracies related...
Awesome game, absolutely fantastic.

BUT one thing troubled me, in both games - The fights are too easy.
Usually only one guard attacks at a given time, it takes a lot of times in between the enemies attacks, you can keep your health at 100% just by holding the "defend" button.
Hold "defend", repeatedly attack to kill a soldier in a combo / wait (and wait...) for an attack and counter-kill X million.
The only variation was that you couldn't counter against the Brutes with some weapons, instead you evade.

It doesn't require almost any skill and it gets somewhat boring after a while - by the end of the game I just used smoke bombs to run away.


So what's all this criticism worth without some ideas and directions?

Every flaw that I pointed out here would have been VANIHSED if:
1. The guards had attacked much more frequently, all together, so you always have to work to defend yourself, evade and counter kill
2. And different attacks required differnet key-combinations to counter / evade, so the combat doesn't become automatic.
Bad: "they attack, I do X"
Good: "They executed attack type 2, I counter-kill type 2".
3. More than just one combo (LMB-LMB-LMB).
I'm not suggesting you go Prince of Persia but 3-4 is good. Oh and you can start with one and finish with the end of the other hmm...

Some inspiration never hurts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLXaRtc1f4I

If that happens in AC3, and all the good stuff from 1/2 remains... I will have no words. The game would be perfect, and as a hardcore gamer for years, I don't recall saying that much.

GbeTech
05-31-2010, 05:03 AM
Alright, I finished AC2 about 3 hours ago and up until now I've researched all the conspiracies related...
Awesome game, absolutely fantastic.

BUT one thing troubled me, in both games - The fights are too easy.
Usually only one guard attacks at a given time, it takes a lot of times in between the enemies attacks, you can keep your health at 100% just by holding the "defend" button.
Hold "defend", repeatedly attack to kill a soldier in a combo / wait (and wait...) for an attack and counter-kill X million.
The only variation was that you couldn't counter against the Brutes with some weapons, instead you evade.

It doesn't require almost any skill and it gets somewhat boring after a while - by the end of the game I just used smoke bombs to run away.


So what's all this criticism worth without some ideas and directions?

Every flaw that I pointed out here would have been VANIHSED if:
1. The guards had attacked much more frequently, all together, so you always have to work to defend yourself, evade and counter kill
2. And different attacks required differnet key-combinations to counter / evade, so the combat doesn't become automatic.
Bad: "they attack, I do X"
Good: "They executed attack type 2, I counter-kill type 2".
3. More than just one combo (LMB-LMB-LMB).
I'm not suggesting you go Prince of Persia but 3-4 is good. Oh and you can start with one and finish with the end of the other hmm...

Some inspiration never hurts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLXaRtc1f4I

If that happens in AC3, and all the good stuff from 1/2 remains... I will have no words. The game would be perfect, and as a hardcore gamer for years, I don't recall saying that much.

Marius_Darkwolf
05-31-2010, 05:18 AM
Personally I find it enough of a challenge as it is. But here's something I don't think a lot of people realize. We're playing as an assassin, yes you're going to be better at flat out killing a solider than they are you. No as an assassin you're generally not going to want to go toe to toe with a soldier, you want to sneak around them and escape. What I'd almost prefer to see is a revamp of the noteritiy system. Once you're infamous, it should take some major work to become unknown again.

El_Sjietah
05-31-2010, 05:20 AM
The combat system is already getting an overhaul in AC:B. Patrice mentioned an end to staring contests and the ease of counterattacking. Aggressive behaviour will be more rewarding. Time will tell if they hit the sweet spot.

MostJadedGamer
05-31-2010, 02:07 PM
The brain dead AI was so terrible, and so broken in AC2 that it ruined the game. My enjoyment of the game was very severely hurt my the totally worthless enemy AI.

I mean there was many times where I could walk right in front of a enemy, and assassinate him, and THEN after that assassinate 2 or 3 more enemies who had just got through watching me assassinate one of there buddies. It takes all the fun, and excitement out of the game when the enemies are that brain dead.

Also a archer on a rooftop could yell stop at you from 30 paces away, and yet you could run all the way up to him, and assassinate him at ease.

This kinda of brain dead AI took all the fun, and excitement out of the game. There was no just intensity or excitement in the game because the brain dead AI simply refused to fight you.

MostJadedGamer
05-31-2010, 02:10 PM
The most important thing that Ubisoft has to do is fix the brain dead AI or give difficulty levels or something. Or else the game will be broken, and ruined again.

wanderer77
05-31-2010, 02:40 PM
while i do agree about the difficulty level being low. the real problem comes from your playing style. from what i read, you play the coward fighting style. u just sit and wait and have staring contests and counterattack. counterattack being the problem. my playing style uses a lot of dodging, quickstep evading and combokills.

i can tell u now, 80% of my kills come from combokills, and only 20% is counterattacks. playing this way i never feel so bored like you. while the coward fighting style was excusable in AC1, where the combat system was poorly developed, in AC2 that is not true. you should have no reason to sit and wait in AC2 when combokills have become easier to perform, while in AC1 the timing to perform a combokill was very strict. another clue, never use the hidden blade in combat. in AC1 it took more skill to use hidden blade in combat since the timing to perform a counterattack was more strict, and you cannot block so you took damage if you messed up the hidden blade counterattack. in AC2 the hidden blade is far too cheap, the hidden blade counter is a one hit kill as usual, but now you can block, and to top it off, the regular hidden blade cannot be countered by enemies (with a sword or knife you might receive a kick in the nuts or a punch) rather than using cheap weapons try using poor weapons and allow your SKILLS to take you the rest of the way? i have finished off large groups of soldiers including lots of brutes and seekers using only the stilletto, and you get that knife pretty early in the game. with combo kills you usually kill twice as much in half the time compared to counterattacks. what this means is that i am used to seeing 5 or 6 soldiers run away from battle after i only kill 3 or 4 in under half a minute.

this brings me to my next point. make full use of your weapon's specs. each weapon has a grade for DAMAGE, SPEED, and DEFLECT. using the coward fighting style, all you do is stare and counterattack, therefore only DAMAGE is used, the SPEED and DEFLECT is just wasted in your hands. if you play like me you use all of those weapon specs. i can consistently combokill using the heavy weapon or long weapon, and so i keep those weapons because counterattacking makes you lose those weapons in battle, and you don't have time to pickup the body to obtain the weapon back. not only that, even though i can consistently combo and kill without using counterattacks with heavy or long weapons, now i don't even bother to melee disarm the brutes or seekers. i can deal with brutes and seekers well enough using any small weapon or sword (the stilletto, florentine falchion, milanese sword and sultan's knife are my favs) and combokill. i never use altair's sword, or the Notched Cinquedea, you experiment in combat enough like i have and you will find that even weapons you get early in the game with poor stats can be competent in combokills..... because a combokill is a kill, regardless of how much damage the weapon does it will kill if you can perform combokills.

on another note, the whole reason taunting was available in AC2 was because of the whole staring contest-counterattack-coward playing style most people are familiar with, Ubisoft guessed that most pple will be using that playing style and they were right, that's just the consequence for making such a poor combat system in AC1, the habits carry over to AC2. the way they fixed this is to give combokills the best killing animations, the most flashy and smooth looking animation sequence, the moves that look the coolest, and they give counterattacking a decent average, not too spectacular killing animation. the long weapon is the only exception to this since all counterattack animation involving long weapons look so good. my playing style uses a lot of dodging, quickstep evading and combokills, this should be enough to let you start experimenting and figuring out the way the whole combat system works in AC2. you hear so often the guards warning their buddies not to fall for FALSE OPENINGS, i take advantage of this.

Six_Gun
05-31-2010, 02:51 PM
Should you HAVE to go out of your way to force challenge though? That is the point wanderer. I like dodging too, but one of the most annoying things for me is target lock is too automated and toggle only. You have to repeatedly untoggle it to be able to effectively enough get around enemies often times. That and the guy that was responsible for the camera in AC 2 really ought to be let go. I mean who hasn't complained about the crap camera? Then again, the blame can as well be placed on those whom were responsible for quality testing such things.

Sometimes to force quicker response from guards I'll move toward a guard and come out of block stance. That way you get much harder to predict and quicker attacks that are difficult to see coming. IMO you shouldn't have to use such tactics because of poor AI scripting though. It's not just the slow time in between the one at a time attacks, the attacks are often so telegraphed it's ridiculous. A guard will quite often take a step back, wind up, and then finally start his so easy to see attack. By then you're just yawning.

I'm looking forward to seeing Brotherhood gameplay footage, esp if they made combat harder. I don't know if I like the sound of "Aggressive behaviour will be more rewarding" though, that could mean button mash spamming the attack button becomes the most effective form of battle. It's a common thing with Ubisoft melee games like Prince of Persia, and not very appealing to me.

wanderer77
05-31-2010, 03:26 PM
if we are talking about the flaws of the game i also know all about them too. the camera controls, an obvious weak point in the game. the difficulty in combat being so low, in AC1 Altair was like a tank, they didn't need to make it easier for Ezio. the super glitchy mission objectives, sometimes i go on side missions, kill my target but the mission still goes on because the computer thinks the target is still alive, it just plainly misses the fact that i had just killed my target so i have to abort mission. the flawed targeting feature, has trouble deciding whether i am in combat mode or normal mode. the distance we can target with long range weapons too could use improvements.

as for the slow action i usually just hit them once with a weapon then change targets to another one hit that one once again. keep changing targets hit them once. it usually will scramble their tempo/frequency, and one of them will fall for the false opening. when that happens dodge and combokill.

El_Sjietah
05-31-2010, 03:39 PM
I actually thought the combosystem in AC2 was a step back from AC1. At least there you had to time it right and keep an eye on the other enemies. In AC2 it's just buttonmashing until you see the enmey drop, then target his buddy and repeat until no one's left standing. Even forcing rules on myself to make things more challenging (unarmed only and only allowed to hit enemies after I disarm them and drop their weapon or no blocking allowed) didn't make this game come close to a challenge.

wanderer77
05-31-2010, 03:42 PM
buttonmashing? you must have gotten kicked in the nuts a lot. that, or you buttonmashed with hiddenblade.

El_Sjietah
05-31-2010, 03:48 PM
Altair's sword did the trick just as well.

So did the common sword on my second go through.

Marius_Darkwolf
06-01-2010, 12:57 AM
personally I found the combat portions of the game enough of a challenge. But then again, I can never pull off a combo intentionally. But then again, I prefer to fight the way I think an assassin should, that being, use the enviroment to your advantage, and never give them an even break (DFA, pulldown assassinations, poison dagger on the brute, assassination from cover) and run whenever possible to setup an enviromental kill. I loved fighting on the bridges in Venice, could always get whoever was targeting me to jump in the water to their deaths by jumping the water when they were in close persuit. Then jump to the bridge and repeat.

Engioc
06-02-2010, 06:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Six_Gun:
Should you HAVE to go out of your way to force challenge though? That is the point wanderer. I like dodging too, but one of the most annoying things for me is target lock is too automated and toggle only. You have to repeatedly untoggle it to be able to be effectively enough to get around enemies often times. That and the guy that was responsible for the camera in AC 2 really ought to be let go. I mean who hasn't complained about the crap camera? Then again, the blame can be as well be placed on those whom were responsible for quality testing such things.

Sometimes to force quicker response from guards I'll move toward a guard and come out of block stance. That way you get much harder to predict and quicker attacks that are difficult to see coming. IMO you shouldn't have to use such tactics because of poor AI scripting though. It's not just the slow time in between the one at a time attacks, the attacks are often so telegraphed it's ridiculous. A guard will quite often take a step back, wind up, and then finally start his so easy to see attack. By then you're just yawning.

I'm looking forward to seeing Brotherhood gameplay footage, esp if they made combat harder. I don't know if I like the sound of "Aggressive behaviour will be more rewarding" though, that could mean button mash spamming the attack button becomes the most effective form of battle. It's a common thing with Ubisoft melee games like Prince of Persia, and not very appealing to me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree, why should I be going out of my way and change my combat tactics in order to get a challenge from the fight. While I do like cool animations etc that doesn't really add any to the challenge of the combat itself. The AI is far to slow to react, as was already said can walk up to a guard, assassinate him, turn around and do the same to his 2 or 3 buddies next to him=, why don't they react quicker to the first kill? When a roof top archer or infact any guard sees me advancing despite their warnings they should draw their weapon at least in an attempt to defend themselves, not just stand there while I race up and plunge my blade in to them. As for the fact wanderer is suggesting I choose the lower level weapons, that is crazy to me, why should I need to choose inferior weapons to my enemies in order to get a challenge from them. I have nothing against using these weapons in early stages but as my weapons and skills improve, so should the guards so that even when I'm using the best dagger, best sword etc its still a challenge. Even if the AI isn't really smarter and least get them attacking more often, larger groups of them, and more than one attacking at any given time. Particularly when they have me outnumbered they should take advantage of that and move in as a group, force me to run if the numbers are too great.

In the end I think the single biggest problem is the one level of difficulty and it seems they are trying to cater to all players levels with that. It's never going to work and until they have at the very least a easy, medium, hard setting there will always be people who dislike the combat either because for now its too easy, but later its too hard for others. For a game with so much in it, its surprising such a simple, standard game feature like difficulty levels was left out. Cant think of another game title I own that doesn't have at least some basic difficulty settings even if its just easy and hard.

wanderer77
06-02-2010, 12:11 PM
don't get me wrong. i am not saying the combat system is perfect. it is not. i agree there should be difficulty levels. however you guys are asking for a challenge from the game combat. i am showing what i have discovered.

if anyone of you have noticed, when your play style is just counterattacking, all the other guards CANNOT attack you at the same time, supposing 2 guards start attacking almost at the same time, if you counterattack, the guard whose attack does not reach you first will be interrupted, his attack animation will suddenly stop. either that or the animation will finish but it will serve no damage, because Ezio is in 'ghost' mode when he counterattacks.
however, if you change one factor, change counterattack to combokills, rarely you see the attacks get interrupted, both the guards who start attacking almost at the same time will NOT stop their attack animation. as a result often you may find the guy in front and the guy behind u will attack same time and you cannot escape perfectly. if you just counter thru the whole game you will never know that it was possible for 2 (even 3) guards to attack at the same time.
therefore about your criticism that the guards NEVER attack at the same time is sort of weak, considering your play style may have A LOT to do with it. i play using combokills, and i get lots of guards attacking simultaneously on occasion. Given this observation, how counterattacking may interrupt other guards who are also attacking, and put Ezio into ghost mode so that even attacks that are not interrupted will just hit AIR, not Ezio, its like Ubisoft is saying counterattacks are for amateurs, combokills are for elites.

just my observations. ubisoft may have failed to develop the perfect combat system, may have failed to develop the perfect soldier/battalion/teamwork AI, but a lot of the 'easyness' in the game has to do with players only playing with factors IN THEIR FAVOR. i never use altairs armor, or his sword, or other high power weapons, and i still run circles round the guards. i own them using weaker weapons and armor, i play my missions NEVER with the assistance of mercs, or theives, or hoes. i challenge myself to kill my targets in perfect stealth.
the game is not perfect, the combat and the enemy AI is not perfect, but the difficulty can be found if you allow yourself outside your comfort zone..... basically, stop playing like a coward who only counters in the safe zone.

Six_Gun
06-02-2010, 02:16 PM
I seriously doubt most that use block and even counter a lot don't know that a 2nd guard can't harm you while you're countering. It's a given that most using primarily counters are going to be holding block while surrounded by guards and watching to counter the one highlighted, which quite often results in the one behind you trying and failing to attack your body while it's in animation vs physical.

About the only challenge really presented in choosing to fight that way is the occasional successful attack from someone on your blind side while your just blocking, vs countering. This is more likely to happen when there's an Axe or Spear Brute in the group around you because making the mistake of trying to counter one of them of course can have damaging results.

As for using the least effective weapons to add challenge, it's no big deal really. Even a simple broom, rake or fishing pole can kill the toughest of enemies. At worst the common sword might get knocked out of your hand more often than a more substantial sword. I've been playing with the difficulty adjuster mod lately on F2 with common sword and dagger using only the leather greeves you have to buy and it's still too easy.

And btw, there ARE some rather well known games that don't use difficulty levels, like GTA. I agree though, it's better to have them. It adds more replay value and without them, there's not enough challenge for the more hardcore gamers.

MostJadedGamer
06-02-2010, 02:32 PM
The hiddenblade was totally broken, and totally overpowered because of the brain dead enemy AI. This has go to be fixed in Brotherhood.

adarwinter
06-02-2010, 03:17 PM
GbeTech, i totally agree. i said what u r saying as loud as i could when I played AC2 PC when it came out.

u can use the tool in my signature if u like and own the PC version. it helps lil bit.

anyways, if u played AC1 u'd now that the combat was better then but was hindered by a few things.

in AC1
enemies did power attack as well as normal attacks. power attack, sadly, didnt go through defence BUT they through your counter off. u used to counter at a certain point but the power attacks were slow and the counter was miss-timed. nice. not nice enough but nice.

also power attacks were possible for both al-tair AND enemies and these attacks were slow but more powerful.

every enemy could dodge and counter but the simplest ones. so it's not "im facing an agile so he never counters" or "im facing a brute so he never counters nor dodges" etc. enemies only had one weapon in aC1 - the sword, but still they were more unpredictable.

in AC1 enemies could grab and through u. it was pretty useless and even that was easy counter but it helped the monotony.

in AC1 countering required a lil better timing so it was a lil harder to rely on it.

in AC1 grabbing a guy didnt allow u to kill him with one hit. only through him. made no sense but made better balance.

in AC1 u couldnt block with fists and the blades. it made the hidden blades instant kill be more balanced since u couldnt block. more realistic AND more satisfying.

sadly in AC1 u had a regenerating health with bloody 20 health bars. who needs THAT MUCH?! in AC2 its the same problem (adressed by the tool in my sig).

so, as u can see the system in AC1 was better than in AC2 but still had enough faults to make combat too easy and too counter dependent.

in AC:B i hope they remedy this. your suggestions are all what i always thought they should be.
also things like if an enemy counters ME then attacks than i need to dodge. if the enemy EODGES me and attacks than i need to counter.
things like that that make the player stay on it's toes.

also things like, if u hold defence u CANT counter. if u want to counter u have to do this from a "none defensive posture". simple idea but makes perfect sense for realism AND balance.
give the player LESS health. i dont need 25 health bars AND 15 health medicin. im not a 5 year old who just learned to play video games.

Engioc
06-02-2010, 04:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wanderer77:
don't get me wrong. i am not saying the combat system is perfect. it is not. i agree there should be difficulty levels. however you guys are asking for a challenge from the game combat. i am showing what i have discovered.

if anyone of you have noticed, when your play style is just counterattacking, all the other guards CANNOT attack you at the same time, supposing 2 guards start attacking almost at the same time, if you counterattack, the guard whose attack does not reach you first will be interrupted, his attack animation will suddenly stop. either that or the animation will finish but it will serve no damage, because Ezio is in 'ghost' mode when he counterattacks.
however, if you change one factor, change counterattack to combokills, rarely you see the attacks get interrupted, both the guards who start attacking almost at the same time will NOT stop their attack animation. as a result often you may find the guy in front and the guy behind u will attack same time and you cannot escape perfectly. if you just counter thru the whole game you will never know that it was possible for 2 (even 3) guards to attack at the same time.
therefore about your criticism that the guards NEVER attack at the same time is sort of weak, considering your play style may have A LOT to do with it. i play using combokills, and i get lots of guards attacking simultaneously on occasion. Given this observation, how counterattacking may interrupt other guards who are also attacking, and put Ezio into ghost mode so that even attacks that are not interrupted will just hit AIR, not Ezio, its like Ubisoft is saying counterattacks are for amateurs, combokills are for elites.

just my observations. ubisoft may have failed to develop the perfect combat system, may have failed to develop the perfect soldier/battalion/teamwork AI, but a lot of the 'easyness' in the game has to do with players only playing with factors IN THEIR FAVOR. i never use altairs armor, or his sword, or other high power weapons, and i still run circles round the guards. i own them using weaker weapons and armor, i play my missions NEVER with the assistance of mercs, or theives, or hoes. i challenge myself to kill my targets in perfect stealth.
the game is not perfect, the combat and the enemy AI is not perfect, but the difficulty can be found if you allow yourself outside your comfort zone..... basically, stop playing like a coward who only counters in the safe zone. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I understand what your saying and I often go on the attack myself and use combo kills but my point is the game should provide challenge regardless of which mode of combat I use, simply because I'm in a defensive mode should not prevent multiple guards from attacking at once and they shouldn't hang back for so long, infact while I'm ready to counter that is all the more reason why they should attack in numbers so that at least one of the attacks has a chance of success. The reason they fail to provide a challenge is because they come at you one at a time making counter way too easy.

Also dont get me wrong, I still managed to enjoy the game and overall I think its a good game, but as is always the case there is plenty of room for improvement and for me AC1 combat provided the better challenge in terms of combat. Guards were more able to defend themselves and counter me. I've tried a number of different styles/tactics in AC2 combat but while sometimes it ends up looking better I'd still argue its still not challenging enough. Your suggestions are that I not use much of the game in order to make it a challenge. I already dont use assistance from hoes, thieves etc, I've tried using lesser weapons, but tell me why they bother to include these great weapons with an AI that doesn't know how to deal with it, to me this points to Ubi trying to cater to all levels of player skill with one level of difficulty. What your saying is that Ubi created better weapons in later stages, hoes, and thieves for people who cant cope with the current level of difficulty and if I want a challenge I should ignore 80% of the weapons and rely soley on combos, to me that's just as boring as only using counter attacks, I should be able to play with a combination of all these options and still get a descent challenge. Whats worse is the ease at which you can pop pills and completely heal yourself in the heat of battle. Healing during and after combat, and lowering your notoriety after combat should be far more difficult, the more fights you engage in before getting back to incognito should attract larger and larger numbers of guards as word spreads about your location. Some citizens actively pointing you out to authorities to collect the price on your head, or simply because they're good citizens. There are plenty of ways to improve the combat and not all of them need to be in the form of improved guard AI, need to look at the things which trigger these fights as well.

If anything the fights towards the later stages of the game should be so difficult I do need to resort to assistance. I never used any thieves or hoes, and overall I found quite large number of things in AC2 that seemed pointless because they made things far too easy, or it was quicker and easier to do it another way. Did I ever need to quietly assassinate anyone (I believe there was one of two occasions) but most of the time I can just run up and sink the blade in, so why use hoes, they just get in my way and slow things down. Sure I can come up with all kinds of ways to restrict myself and improve the level of challenge, example I never carry healing pills so I cant pop pills during combat and I have to care a little more about my life, but I shouldn't need to do that.

In AC2 try switching to the blade and go on a click fest and you'll see another thing I really dislike in AC2. I hate games where I win simply by clicking my mouse fast enough, guards (particularly brutes) seem to have no answer to my constant attacks and other guards do nothing to assist. It seems in AC2 and many other games that most combat is done by individuals and they never really work as a group to defeat you (GTA4 immediately springs to mind as another combat easy game because Nicko and the guys from EPFLC are simply too good and the AI is too dumb to deal with it). They talk to each other but thats all it is, never do they assist each other in any way either defensively or offensively and that should be changed. Have guards taking a swing at my head and legs at the same time or another guard cutting in while I'm on the attack to push me off one of his buddies. They do sometimes attack while you are attacking but this proves no challenge at all, just keep clicking, the guy your beating up might change and you might of taken a little damage but you'll still win with ease.

Azugo
06-03-2010, 12:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dennis580:
The brain dead AI was so terrible, and so broken in AC2 that it ruined the game. My enjoyment of the game was very severely hurt my the totally worthless enemy AI.

I mean there was many times where I could walk right in front of a enemy, and assassinate him, and THEN after that assassinate 2 or 3 more enemies who had just got through watching me assassinate one of there buddies. It takes all the fun, and excitement out of the game when the enemies are that brain dead.

Also a archer on a rooftop could yell stop at you from 30 paces away, and yet you could run all the way up to him, and assassinate him at ease.

This kinda of brain dead AI took all the fun, and excitement out of the game. There was no just intensity or excitement in the game because the brain dead AI simply refused to fight you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Four times... Wow. Was it really that bad for you?

Yes, the AI was average (in most cases), but I don't think it was brain dead.

adarwinter
06-03-2010, 12:21 AM
i also dont think the AI was brain dead. there is a very bid difference between brain dead and not balanced. the AI had all the tools it needs to handle u. they knew how to block, dodge, counter, chase u on rooftops (this is quit amazing if u ask me) , they have realistic line of sight mechanic. the AI is good. it's the balance that ruins it. AI can die with one combo? too easy. AI barely blocks or dodges? too easy. AI arent persistant in chases? too easy. AI dont attack enough? too easy. AI dont attack enough from the back? too easy. the AI knows how to do this. they are smart, but UBI decided to tone them down.

also the AI in GTAIV is superb. one of the best AIs i've ever seen, but again - toned down to miss most of their shots. they have 40% health of niko's health and in missions the AI is scripted to stay in one place.
on the PC u have mods that randomly generate missions - spawn AIs somewhere and telling u to kill them, rescue a hostage, survive till u get somewhere etc. in these mods u really see how clever the AI is - how they can keep track of you, climb objects to get to hard to reach areas, they can take cover behind bloody anything (and they do that without cover nodes placed by the devs at every corner like in Gears of war or any other cover based games), they are more accurate (thanks to the mods. not the vanilla AI) and more dangarous. the AI is perfectly fine. it's the game that's toned down with just one difficulty settings that hurts the challenge and satisfaction just to cater to more casual gamers.


Engioc, im not gonna quote your last post but everything u said is exactly what IM thinking.

a game cant be rewarding to everyone with just one difficulty settings. it's impossible since everyone has a different skill level.

what the combat system needs is what was present in AC1 in combination of other very very simple ideas any old gamer can come up with (as i showed in my previous post).

AC2 is the most unbalanced game i've ever seen and the courtesans, thieves, mercs, medicins, hiding spots, stealth, buying property, better weapons - all these game features are NOT NEEDED AT ALL. u can beat the game very very easily without any of the features i gave. this shouldnt be the case. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
nor should it be that we are forced to use any of these elements just cuz the mission forces us cuz that's against the freedom the game stands for.


the good news is that AC:B have PVP combat, as we've seen. this means that ubisoft MUST balance the combat system so PVP requires skill since the current combat system will never work in MP.

in AC2 they showed that they can improve upon elements they believed lacking. im really eager to see what ubisoft had learned from AC2 in terms of combat.

Marius_Darkwolf
06-03-2010, 12:53 AM
Here I go about to invite flames, I know it.
Personally I found the combat a little too difficult, that's why I generally ran, used enviromental aspects, and just basically "cheated" (ie thought like an assassin instead of a warrior). Enemies die in the water, great through them in, or jump on a piling. Enemy can't climb, great run far enough, climb up somewhere then DFA (death from above) them. But flat out assassin vs crowd usually handed me my tail unless I had stupid amounts of medicine. But then that's because I have a different play style than most people, I don't generally care for multiplayer unless it's co-op and I don't/can't twitch game. I just want to get through the story. I consider a challenge something to involve the mind, like how do I get from this ledge here, to that tunnel there without falling to my death.

MostJadedGamer
06-03-2010, 02:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">i also dont think the AI was brain dead. there is a very bid difference between brain dead and not balanced. the AI had all the tools it needs to handle u </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No it did NOT. It had absolutely ZERO defense at all for the hidden blade.

You could walk right in front of a group of enemies, and assassinate one with the hidden blade, and then go the next one, and assassinate him with the hidden blade, and then go to the next one assaasinate him, and lots of times you could even go to the 4th enemy, and then assassinate him with the hidden blade without any resistance at all.

A archer could yell at you from 30 paces away to stop, and yet you could run all the way up to him, and assassinate him with the hidden blade without any resistance at all.

The totally brain dead AI made no attempt at all to defend themselves from being assassinated by the hidden blade even if you had assassinated a couple of there buddies right in front of them.

It was by FAR the worse AI I have seen in any game this Generation, and it broke the game to such an extent that it very severely hurt my enjoyment of the game.

All too often the AI after seeing you just stood around waiting for you to assassinate them.

I cann't ever remember playing a game where the AI was so reluctant to fight as it was in AC2. They just stood around like they were totally brain dead, and simply allow you to assassinate them one by one with the hidden blade even though they had just saw you assassinate there buddy that was standing right next to them.

I simply cann't ever remember seeing AI that bad in a videogame.

GbeTech
06-03-2010, 03:40 AM
@The guy who said that going for combos makes it more interesting:

Spamming Left Click for eternity isn't fun. As simple as that. Even the boring... "Coward".. fighting style was more entertaining.
There should be a balance of you needing to attack and the defend AS PART of a bigger combo.
And dude you basically said the same things 3 times in different posts lol.

Maybe even a "Rage" bar or something... Can't recall what games have this feature - the longer your combo, combining successful evades as a part of it, fills a bar up. When it reaches 100% you can execute more awesome combos.

Engioc
06-03-2010, 06:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Marius_Darkwolf:
Here I go about to invite flames, I know it.
Personally I found the combat a little too difficult, that's why I generally ran, used enviromental aspects, and just basically "cheated" (ie thought like an assassin instead of a warrior). Enemies die in the water, great through them in, or jump on a piling. Enemy can't climb, great run far enough, climb up somewhere then DFA (death from above) them. But flat out assassin vs crowd usually handed me my tail unless I had stupid amounts of medicine. But then that's because I have a different play style than most people, I don't generally care for multiplayer unless it's co-op and I don't/can't twitch game. I just want to get through the story. I consider a challenge something to involve the mind, like how do I get from this ledge here, to that tunnel there without falling to my death. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wont flame you, but I will use you to again point to the fact this game needs difficulty settings. You clearly dont want to see things get any harder, while others like me do, there is only one solution to that, which is introduce difficulty settings so everyone can play at their own skill level and get a challenge/enjoyment from this game. It's ridiculous to expect to cater to all skill levels with one level of difficulty as in AC1 & 2.

Again on the fact that I can use lesser weapons etc to force combat in to working better, all your really doing is saying I need to create the challenge because the game cant. The game should challenge me, not me having to forget half the features of the game to keep it challenging. What's the point to all that stuff if I'm told that in order to be challenged I should pretend it doesn't exist, use inferior equipment because if I use the best I'll slaughter 1000s single handed with no more than a scratch or two.

Which brings me to the next point that could help the situation which is, why does he never seem affected by their attacks on me until he gets to the point health is so low he's about to die? Wouldn't it make more sense for his own combat skills to suffer as guards manage to successfully attack him, surely no matter how great an assassin he is if he is sliced in the rear by a brute's axe he should feel a little sore?? NO he just continues on, its only a flesh wound http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. The guards themselves do sometimes pause as if tired or affected by their injuries, but Ezio and even Altair never seem to tire or suffer from the results of combat, and of course just pop a pill and I feel on top of the world again ready to take on a thousand more, one at a time.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dennis580:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">i also dont think the AI was brain dead. there is a very bid difference between brain dead and not balanced. the AI had all the tools it needs to handle u </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No it did NOT. It had absolutely ZERO defense at all for the hidden blade.

You could walk right in front of a group of enemies, and assassinate one with the hidden blade, and then go the next one, and assassinate him with the hidden blade, and then go to the next one assaasinate him, and lots of times you could even go to the 4th enemy, and then assassinate him with the hidden blade without any resistance at all.

A archer could yell at you from 30 paces away to stop, and yet you could run all the way up to him, and assassinate him with the hidden blade without any resistance at all.

The totally brain dead AI made no attempt at all to defend themselves from being assassinated by the hidden blade even if you had assassinated a couple of there buddies right in front of them.

It was by FAR the worse AI I have seen in any game this Generation, and it broke the game to such an extent that it very severely hurt my enjoyment of the game.

All too often the AI after seeing you just stood around waiting for you to assassinate them.

I cann't ever remember playing a game where the AI was so reluctant to fight as it was in AC2. They just stood around like they were totally brain dead, and simply allow you to assassinate them one by one with the hidden blade even though they had just saw you assassinate there buddy that was standing right next to them.

I simply cann't ever remember seeing AI that bad in a videogame. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly, they had no idea how to defend in my opinion, they just let you walk right up with no resistance at all. An again I hope nobody is going to suggest that in order to keep it a challenge I should resist running up to them and doing it so easily, why should I, the game should provide the challenge, not me forcing it to be. Surely if an archer sees me advancing after he's told me to stop, he should at the very least draw his bow, if I still continue he should at some point (before I am right in front of him ready to stick my blade in) realise "hey this guy isn't stopping" open fire AND call for help. Any guards near by should respond, even the odd brave citizen should respond, and depending on my current notoriety more guards/reinforcements should be called for as they realise who/what I am.

adarwinter
06-03-2010, 09:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Marius_Darkwolf:
Here I go about to invite flames, I know it.
Personally I found the combat a little too difficult, that's why I generally ran, used enviromental aspects, and just basically "cheated" (ie thought like an assassin instead of a warrior). Enemies die in the water, great through them in, or jump on a piling. Enemy can't climb, great run far enough, climb up somewhere then DFA (death from above) them. But flat out assassin vs crowd usually handed me my tail unless I had stupid amounts of medicine. But then that's because I have a different play style than most people, I don't generally care for multiplayer unless it's co-op and I don't/can't twitch game. I just want to get through the story. I consider a challenge something to involve the mind, like how do I get from this ledge here, to that tunnel there without falling to my death. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

no one is flaming you, my friend. the game's combat is balanced to certain part of the audience. you are a part of that audience. for you it's good.
but for others who are acustomed to twitch gaming want more.

as dennis580 said - the hidden blade is unbalanced and exploitable. while the AI is not stupid in most cases, he is right - the hidden blade is badly implemented since the AI can take about 2 or 3 seconds before they realize Ezio has a weapon in his glove and attack or defend.

i still dont think the AI is bad but just unbalanced. it's too easy to exploit them. the combo system in AC2 is a nice edition in theory and we all know the AI can BLOCK but as we all also know anyone can spam the attack button and kill with combos very easily without the AI blocking mid combo. the AIs only way of defending itself is by his friends attacking ezio while he is attacking another AI and even at THAT they hardly act in time.

the AI has this neat trick where they attack from front and behind at the same time. if u block than the AI from behind manages to land at attack. this also explains why they circle around ezio - to get to his back.
and if u noticed this or not - if ezio is holding DEFENSE than he will protect himself from enemies from the front and sides. not the back.
all these lil touches make u think the AI is clever enough to pose a challenge but NO, the circle around ezio and dont do nothing, ezio can smash long never ending combos against one AI and the rest, instead of interfering, just stand and watch. they can block but hardly do so. they can dodge but hardly do so. they can dodge and then attack but hardly do so.
they CAN act, but programmed not to do so often. and when they DO act and ezio gets hit - on no, ezio lost 1 health bar. now he only has 19 health bars. oh my. and if he loses another 18 health bars - oh no , he only has like 10 medicins he can use with no "swallowing animation" in mid combat. it's stupid. we WANT a challenge. how can we feel satisfaction when we know we cant lose?

the difficulty maker tool helps this issue a lil bit on the PC but it still leaves most of the exploits there and even then the game is unbalanced.

i have a bad feeling that UBI doesnt realize what needs to be done in order for combat to be more skill-based and im afraid that in AC:B once two players actually engage in combat it's gonna be really bad combat.
it's like GTAIV - the cover system works really well against the AI but in MP it's not used as often cuz there is a basic problem with it's design - it isnt designed for PVP and it shows.

that's my biggest fear, as much as i want AC:B MP to be good cuz on paper it sounds awesome.

wanderer77
06-03-2010, 11:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GbeTech:
@The guy who said that going for combos makes it more interesting:

Spamming Left Click for eternity isn't fun. As simple as that. Even the boring... "Coward".. fighting style was more entertaining.
There should be a balance of you needing to attack and the defend AS PART of a bigger combo.
And dude you basically said the same things 3 times in different posts lol.

Maybe even a "Rage" bar or something... Can't recall what games have this feature - the longer your combo, combining successful evades as a part of it, fills a bar up. When it reaches 100% you can execute more awesome combos. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

from what i read you sound like you have no idea how i play. i am not suggesting the classic 'hack and slash' style, AC2 is not a buttonmasher unless you use the hidden blade where the enemies have zero defense against.

how i play is that i provoke and react. i am surrounded, so i start with a hit on ONE guard, switch to a different guard, again, 1 hit. i keep doing so with different random guards, with each of them only 1 hit, whether they block it or take it is irrelevant. this serves to provoke them to attack. and it works, it becomes common to see 2 guards attacking almost the same time. the AI is more likely to attack if they see you attacking someone else. and by attacking only ONCE rather than continuing the attacks into a chain, you reduce the chance yourself receiving a kick in the nuts or a punch to the face (enemy counterattack), and also it scrambles the enemy tempo, so you dont have to deal with front and back attacking at the same time so often. i call this part of the battle, semi-taunting.

when one of them DO attack, i dodge to his side, and recoil with a combokill. their defense is wide open right after they attack. making combokills easy. or if its a low rank guard, or agile type, i counterattack because they die in one counter attack. for the higher rank guards that don't die in one counter i combokill, which makes it the same as a hidden blade counter without the hiddenblade. for the seekers and brutes light attack, i deflect then combokill. for the brutes heavy attack that is unblockable, i will either quickstep evade, and carve some pretty designs into his back, or combokill him while he starts winding up for the unblockable. if a seeker tries to sweep use a dodge and the stick will break. this part is the reaction.

after that maybe another guard will start attacking while i am in the middle of a combokill animation, then i counter, and it might interrupt the kill. after they settled down i return to semi taunting and react when one guy falls for the false opening. a shortblade works very well for this style, it handle all guard types, even brutes and seekers. doing a deflect combokill with a sword wont work vs a seeker since your range is shorter, but with a knife you take a step forward then hit. and since a knife handles all enemy types i wont ever have to switch weapons. i always keep an eye on the guy behind me, use your peripherals for the guys in front.

i dont do hack and slash buttonmashing spamming left click like you think Gbe. i am happy at least combat is more fun than in AC1.

MostJadedGamer
06-03-2010, 12:06 PM
I have faith the AI will be addressed in Brotherhood. The reason I have faith is because I feel the AI was terible because Ubisoft forced them to rushed AC2 out for the Holiday season. AC2 really should have been delayed 6 months. Heck they even have to leave 2 chapters of the story out so you know the game was flat out rushed to make a quick buck during the Holiday season.

So I feel the reason for the terrible AI was probably NOT bad game design, laziness or them simply not caring, but the fact that AC2 was simply rushed out to make a quick buck. it should have been delayed 6 months.

I expect the devlopers to vastly improve the AI for Brotherhood. Of course that will be extremely easy to do considering how terrible AC2's AI was.

lilbacchant
06-03-2010, 12:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wanderer77:
from what i read you sound like you have no idea how i play. i am not suggesting the classic 'hack and slash' style, AC2 is not a buttonmasher unless you use the hidden blade where the enemies have zero defense against.

how i play is that i provoke and react.
.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, Wanderer! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Up until reading this, I was convinced I'd always like the combat in AC1 more than AC2. Now I'm beginning to re-think that ... looks like it's time to put AC2 back in the tray for, yet, another spin.

If there was an AC War Room, your post should be hung on the wall. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif