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mortoma
06-17-2007, 02:17 PM
Hi all, I have been off the internet for a week due to roomies not knowing what they are talking about! I had been online using my two year old "Wireless B" linksys router, which was in a roommates room, attached to his DSL modem. Everything was fine until a new roommate, unbeknownst to me, had apparently talked the other roommate into buying a new Wireless G router at Walmart late at night while I slept. I found my router at my bedroom doorstep with a note attached saying they had made the decision to do this.

This was supposedly based on the false premise that the wireless G router would deliver the internet to the new roomies PC faster than my "old" B router. Also based on the assumption that my selection of 64 bit WEP encryption was not sufficient security.

Well, as a person who has a degree in Computer Engineering Technology, allow me to dispell some common myths.

First of all, while the newer G routers are capable of delivering 54 mbps bandwidth and the old B routers only can do 11 mbps speed, there is no advantage to this if all you are doing is connecting to the internet. This is because few people in the USA currently have speeds delivered to their houses in excess of 11 mbps per second ( the speed of B technology ) in the first place, or even close to that!! So the speed delivered wirelessly to PCs in your home can only be as fast as that speed which is delivered to your home. Few people can benefit therefore from wireless G speeds yet! Few can even benefit from the max speed capability of two year old wireless B!!

Secondly, while 128 bit encryption is for sure more secure than 64 bit, 64 bit is in no way insecure or easily crackable. A 64 bit encryption key was in fact recently cracked, only trouble is, it took a world-wide team of over 331,000 people over four years to crack the key!! A ten digit hexadecimal key has over 80 quadrillion possible combinations/permutations.

So unless my roommates are planning to get an internet service provider that can deliver speeds of over 11 mbps ( not likely in this area in the near future for an affordable price ) they had nothing to worry about speedwise. Our current DSL speed is only 1000kbps down and 700 up!! And if, per chance a team of over a quarter of a million people would have camped outside of our house for four years whilst attempting to crack my old 64 bit key, they had nothing to worry about in area of security either!!

Sorry, still pi$$ed off and had to vent by posting a rant. Just goes to show you how so many people these days fancy themselves experts on PC technology simply because they have a PC and can turn it on and do a few things on it.
People are soooooo stupid it's amazing.

mortoma
06-17-2007, 02:17 PM
Hi all, I have been off the internet for a week due to roomies not knowing what they are talking about! I had been online using my two year old "Wireless B" linksys router, which was in a roommates room, attached to his DSL modem. Everything was fine until a new roommate, unbeknownst to me, had apparently talked the other roommate into buying a new Wireless G router at Walmart late at night while I slept. I found my router at my bedroom doorstep with a note attached saying they had made the decision to do this.

This was supposedly based on the false premise that the wireless G router would deliver the internet to the new roomies PC faster than my "old" B router. Also based on the assumption that my selection of 64 bit WEP encryption was not sufficient security.

Well, as a person who has a degree in Computer Engineering Technology, allow me to dispell some common myths.

First of all, while the newer G routers are capable of delivering 54 mbps bandwidth and the old B routers only can do 11 mbps speed, there is no advantage to this if all you are doing is connecting to the internet. This is because few people in the USA currently have speeds delivered to their houses in excess of 11 mbps per second ( the speed of B technology ) in the first place, or even close to that!! So the speed delivered wirelessly to PCs in your home can only be as fast as that speed which is delivered to your home. Few people can benefit therefore from wireless G speeds yet! Few can even benefit from the max speed capability of two year old wireless B!!

Secondly, while 128 bit encryption is for sure more secure than 64 bit, 64 bit is in no way insecure or easily crackable. A 64 bit encryption key was in fact recently cracked, only trouble is, it took a world-wide team of over 331,000 people over four years to crack the key!! A ten digit hexadecimal key has over 80 quadrillion possible combinations/permutations.

So unless my roommates are planning to get an internet service provider that can deliver speeds of over 11 mbps ( not likely in this area in the near future for an affordable price ) they had nothing to worry about speedwise. Our current DSL speed is only 1000kbps down and 700 up!! And if, per chance a team of over a quarter of a million people would have camped outside of our house for four years whilst attempting to crack my old 64 bit key, they had nothing to worry about in area of security either!!

Sorry, still pi$$ed off and had to vent by posting a rant. Just goes to show you how so many people these days fancy themselves experts on PC technology simply because they have a PC and can turn it on and do a few things on it.
People are soooooo stupid it's amazing.

mortoma
06-17-2007, 02:28 PM
I somehow can see hoardes of people swarming to stores buying into the newer still Wireless N router technology, mistakenly believing ( in the vast majority of cases ) that it will magically help them obtain faster internet speeds. The gullibility of people these days, I swear......

Agamemnon22
06-17-2007, 02:56 PM
Hear hear!

stathem
06-17-2007, 02:58 PM
Hi mortoma,

Since you seem well up on this I wondered if you could answer a question for me?

I'm about to go wireless for my home, the main intention being (in a month or so)to get a new laptop for the other half to do her work on so I can get at my machine now and then, maybe even get some flying done in the evenings.

Thing is, the new laptop will be obv. Vista, and this is an XP machine - do you know if there are any issues with that?

Sorry if it seems a bit of a dull question.

triad773
06-17-2007, 03:15 PM
Yes many people seem to not bother encrypting because it may be beyond their skillset, or somehow the encryption interferes with their connecting somehow.

The apartment building behind me went condo a couple of years ago. Those who moved in put in wireless, some of which are WIDE open. Scary stuff. Better to encrypt then to have it at all http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Fireball_
06-17-2007, 03:28 PM
Totally agree with you about the relative speeds of wireless B versus wireless G. The internet's not going to be any faster for you on a G than it would be on a B.

However, the encryption issue may be a valid point. The issue is not so much 64-bit vs 128 bit, as it is the type of wireless encryption. The older routers used a type of encryption called WEP. Supposedly there are commonly available tools today that can crack WEP encryption in a matter of seconds or minutes. The newer routers have more advanced encryption protocols like WPA, etc. I don't know about the particular routers involved in your situation.

Stew278
06-17-2007, 03:31 PM
I remember reading an article on Zdnet a few months back about people's routers getting hijacked. The problem was people would buy a router and not change the password. Apparently in the case of a lot of brands the default setting is no password.

All the hardware/software security measures won't do squat when the weakest of the chain link is the user.

Whirlin_merlin
06-17-2007, 04:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stathem:
Hi mortoma,

Since you seem well up on this I wondered if you could answer a question for me?

I'm about to go wireless for my home, the main intention being (in a month or so)to get a new laptop for the other half to do her work on so I can get at my machine now and then, maybe even get some flying done in the evenings.

Thing is, the new laptop will be obv. Vista, and this is an XP machine - do you know if there are any issues with that?

Sorry if it seems a bit of a dull question. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

BUMP I have exactly the same question as I'm in exactly the same position.

muchaclopiec
06-17-2007, 04:27 PM
im connected to a wireless network in Australia called "unwired". Its basically a plug in and play modem, with no need for setting up a password. The network people say its a secure system but im wondering...
I was given a wireless router with my Dell laptop, ive never used it as we have only the one pc in the household, but would it be a good idea to set up the router as it may give an extra layer of security?

mortoma
06-17-2007, 07:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fireball_:
Totally agree with you about the relative speeds of wireless B versus wireless G. The internet's not going to be any faster for you on a G than it would be on a B.

However, the encryption issue may be a valid point. The issue is not so much 64-bit vs 128 bit, as it is the type of wireless encryption. The older routers used a type of encryption called WEP. Supposedly there are commonly available tools today that can crack WEP encryption in a matter of seconds or minutes. The newer routers have more advanced encryption protocols like WPA, etc. I don''t know about the particular routers involved in your situation. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>The key word there is "supposedly". I've yet to discover any documented proof that there is any cracker tool
out there that can decipher WEP in a few seconds or minutes. That's a lot of combinations, even with processors speeds of 4Ghz commonly used today. That maybe 4 billion operations per second or a cycle time of 20 picoseconds, but no program is going to be written that can try a different combination every machine cycle. Not even close. I have heard a lot of hearsay about these hacking tools being out there but that's all. Even if it were true, how many people out there would be using it?? What is the chance of you living close to somebody with these tools and is geeky enough to crack, then hack your PC with 64 bit WEP??
the chances of that happening are about as likely as winning the Powerball lottery.

mortoma
06-17-2007, 07:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stew278:
I remember reading an article on Zdnet a few months back about people's routers getting hijacked. The problem was people would buy a router and not change the password. Apparently in the case of a lot of brands the default setting is no password.

All the hardware/software security measures won't do squat when the weakest of the chain ink is the user. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>True enough but :
"hijacked" is no doubt referring to people getting onto their network and using their internet connection. This is a whole lot more commonplace than people who can actually crack 64 bit hex keys. They are just getting a free ride to the internet on someone elses wireless network, not cracking and then hacking. And in this case it is talking about people who do not encrypt at all, not 64 bit or 128 bit WEP or any of the newer encryption algorithms. I can log into neighbors wireless networks too and use their internet connection but I can't crack into any neighbors wireless networks that are WEP protected.

mortoma
06-17-2007, 07:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Whirlin_merlin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stathem:
Hi mortoma,

Since you seem well up on this I wondered if you could answer a question for me?

I'm about to go wireless for my home, the main intention being (in a month or so)to get a new laptop for the other half to do her work on so I can get at my machine now and then, maybe even get some flying done in the evenings.

Thing is, the new laptop will be obv. Vista, and this is an XP machine - do you know if there are any issues with that?

Sorry if it seems a bit of a dull question. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

BUMP I have exactly the same question as I'm in exactly the same position. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>It will not matter if one PC is XP and one is Vista. As long as the OS is newer than Win98 or ME. Those will work OK with wireless B but not so hot with G or N. At this point I would not get N if I were you. There are still plenty of G routers being sold that will do you just as well as N in most cases. Since you have XP and Vista, I would go with 128 bit WEP since they can handle it ok with newer, faster processors these days.
In my case I had an older processor that was too slow to process the 128 bit encryption desired by my roommates. You will not find any B routers still being sold anywhere unless you find one at auction or a yard/garage sale somewhere. You can get one second hand but just buy a new G router.

Bearcat99
06-17-2007, 07:18 PM
The only reason I upgraded to a G 108 was because the router was on sale for less than thye 54G and I want to get VOIP.. so I figured the added intranet BW would be a good thing. Was I wrong in this notion?

mortoma
06-17-2007, 07:22 PM
If anyone can find me a story/article showing proof or evidence of someone cracking 64 bit WEP, I'd like to see it. Especially someone that has some kind of program that can crack it in a few minutes as cited earlier by a poster in this thread. Rumors are one thing, proof is something else.

mortoma
06-17-2007, 07:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stathem:
Hi mortoma,

Since you seem well up on this I wondered if you could answer a question for me?

I'm about to go wireless for my home, the main intention being (in a month or so)to get a new laptop for the other half to do her work on so I can get at my machine now and then, maybe even get some flying done in the evenings.

Thing is, the new laptop will be obv. Vista, and this is an XP machine - do you know if there are any issues with that?

Sorry if it seems a bit of a dull question. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>See above post...........

mortoma
06-17-2007, 07:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
The only reason I upgraded to a G 108 was because the router was on sale for less than thye 54G and I want to get VOIP.. so I figured the added intranet BW would be a good thing. Was I wrong in this notion? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>No, in that case your are right, since voice requires good bandwidth. If the one system ( I'm not up on and familiar with them all ) is higher bandwidth than the other, you can't go wrong. Plain internet speed is one thing but if you are doing something else besides just internet surfing like that, then it's a whole different animal.

mortoma
06-17-2007, 07:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by muchaclopiec:
im connected to a wireless network in Australia called "unwired". Its basically a plug in and play modem, with no need for setting up a password. The network people say its a secure system but im wondering...
I was given a wireless router with my Dell laptop, ive never used it as we have only the one pc in the household, but would it be a good idea to set up the router as it may give an extra layer of security? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Is it some kind of wireless router/modem combination?? If you have one PC in your house you should not need to receive a wireless signal to get on the internet anyway, if you have a modem in your house. You should straight to the internet through the modem. Unless you are getting a wireless signal from a neighbor or another building somewhere?? I'm afraid you may need to further explain your situation in more detail.
Then I can answer your question more precisely.

Fireball_
06-17-2007, 07:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mortoma:
If anyone can find me a story/article showing proof or evidence of someone cracking 64 bit WEP, I'd like to see it. Especially someone that has some kind of program that can crack it in a few minutes as cited earlier by a poster in this thread. Rumors are one thing, proof is something else. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.securityfocus.com/infocus/1814
http://www.securityfocus.com/infocus/1824
http://www.heise-security.co.uk/news/87889
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070404-new-attac...-in-record-time.html (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070404-new-attack-cracks-wep-in-record-time.html)
http://www.lockergnome.com/nexus/usrbingeek/2007/04/05/...ked-within-a-minute/ (http://www.lockergnome.com/nexus/usrbingeek/2007/04/05/wep-encrypted-networks-cracked-within-a-minute/)
http://eprint.iacr.org/2007/120.pdf
http://mobilesociety.typepad.com/mobile_life/2007/04/outdated_wifi_w.html

And literally hundreds more. Google search "wep encryption cracked".

Xiolablu3
06-17-2007, 08:06 PM
I dont even use WEP on our wireless network, its completely open for ease of connecting new clients when I am fixing them.

Luckily the only neighbour I have is my uncle next door and he is not likely to start hacking our computers :P

Maybe if we saw a strange person sat outside my house in a car, with a laptop, I might start to worry, but until then I will just leave it open.

mortoma
06-17-2007, 08:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fireball_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mortoma:
If anyone can find me a story/article showing proof or evidence of someone cracking 64 bit WEP, I'd like to see it. Especially someone that has some kind of program that can crack it in a few minutes as cited earlier by a poster in this thread. Rumors are one thing, proof is something else. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Ok, that looks convincing. I have never been able to find that stuff searching the internet. But still it's unlikely there are many people out there sniffing the airwaves looking for people to crack by stalking around neighborhoods in vehicles. And chances are, the people living close to you are not savvy enough to try and do this. The chances are almost astronomically against it. There may be one or two sorts like that in a city of a million or so. And then one of those would just crack your encryption and use you internet connection to surf and not hack into your files or anything. I'm totally not worried about it. If they have tools like that now, I'd say within one year no encryption method will be safe!!!

http://www.securityfocus.com/infocus/1814
http://www.securityfocus.com/infocus/1824
http://www.heise-security.co.uk/news/87889
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070404-new-attac...-in-record-time.html (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070404-new-attack-cracks-wep-in-record-time.html)
http://www.lockergnome.com/nexus/usrbingeek/2007/04/05/...ked-within-a-minute/ (http://www.lockergnome.com/nexus/usrbingeek/2007/04/05/wep-encrypted-networks-cracked-within-a-minute/)
http://eprint.iacr.org/2007/120.pdf
http://mobilesociety.typepad.com/mobile_life/2007/04/outdated_wifi_w.html

And literally hundreds more. Google search "wep encryption cracked". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

na85
06-17-2007, 08:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mortoma:
And chances are, the people living close to you are not savvy enough to try and do this. The chances are almost astronomically against it. There may be one or two sorts like that in a city of a million or so.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I live in a city of about 350 000, and I can name more than 20 people off the top of my head who can easily do this, myself included.

Wireless networks should also have MAC-address filtering enabled, as an added measure.

Fireball_
06-17-2007, 08:36 PM
Yeah, there's no way to totally secure your system. It really comes down to 'acceptable risk'. And that would be different for different people, depending on how you use your computer.

leitmotiv
06-17-2007, 08:47 PM
I bought an Apple Airport two years ago. I was warned the house was too close to the street, and that unless I avoided using it in my bedroom I'd attract snoopers. I discounted this because where I live isn't exactly the Silicon Valley. Within a day or so, I had a strange van parked right at the max range of the Airport. We never have cars park by the side of the house. I unplugged the Airport and they drove off. A techy friend of mine told me Apple's bragging about Airport security was empty, that it was really lousy. I decided Stalin was right. Stick with land lines and forget wireless. By the way, I never saw that van again.

Hoatee
06-18-2007, 04:51 AM
Those wireless routers are a hassle to work with - tried playing on Hyperlobby on wireless and got nothing but ping warnings. So I don't use the wireless part of the router anymore, specially since I can't get it to work anymore anyway.

Wireless is too vulnerable...wired (way) to go.

WWSensei
06-18-2007, 07:29 AM
I have two wireless networks in my home. Mainly due to intervening walls. I actually have them connected via wireless bridge (WDS connection). The bridge part is encrypted, and I have MAC address filtering.

I've done network engineering and systems engineering (certified in Sun/Solaris high end 128-way processor heavy iron as well as cluster support) and CISCO certified.

While as a general rule of thumb 11B won't get you faster than G it's not a hard and fast rule. In reality, due to overhead, signal strength etc, on average effective throughput on an 11B network on a constant basis is going to be from 250kbs to 650kbs. On a G it is going to be 400kbs to 4096kbs. If you have a DSL modem with a 768kbs download you are more likely to better utilize the bandwidth with a G router than with a B.

If you have more than one computer sharing the wireless you will get more effective throughput with a G over a B as well.

Now, my setup at home is far more complex than the average as I do a ton of multimedia streaming over the home network (Tivo, Slingbox, media servers etc) and one of the features on a new G or N router is bandwidth shaping/allocation. This allows me to limit my son's machine to no more than 768K down load/upload so his Warcraft playing doesn't suck up all the bandwidth while I'm playing IL2, or if my wife starts downloading videos from YouTube she doesn't exceed the 1.5Mbs I've allocated her. This has worked really well and I find the throughput to my network to be much smoother. Shoot, the Slinbox will suck up to 4MBs on the internal network but by utilizing the bandwidth controls that no longer causes my wife's laptop to slow to a crawl on looking at Ebay. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I also have a wireless printer located downstairs in a utility closet that allows my wife to print off things downstairs without having to run upstairs everytime she needs something. OK, the real reason was I got tired of being in the middle of a dogfight and getting a big stutter because she fired off a recipe printout to the printer on my machine that I was sharing. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

As to the security question some is better than none, but not everyone needs to be Fort Knox lock down either. I use some of the basic security to make my network more of a pain to hack than someone else's. I view it similar to locking my car. Just because a good car thief can break into any car doesn't mean I leave the door unlocked and the keys in the ignition. No, I lock the door and turn on the alarm.

Philipscdrw
06-18-2007, 08:02 AM
I used wireless LAN for about six hours, when I moved into my current student house last October. Four housemates, three with PCs, two using wireless and one parked next to the router. I live at the other side of the house to the router and found I couldn't get a reliable connection. With hindsight it was probably the out-of-subscription remnants of Norton Internet Security that was causing the problem but I returned the wireless card anyway and got a 20m ethernet cable and a box of staples...

I've set up MAC address filtering for the wireless router. Housemates had tried without success to set up the WEP encryption before I arrived and had given up. Is MAC-filtering sufficient without WEP?

mortoma
06-18-2007, 07:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by na85:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mortoma:
And chances are, the people living close to you are not savvy enough to try and do this. The chances are almost astronomically against it. There may be one or two sorts like that in a city of a million or so.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>Why do you know how to do this?? I can't think of any reason except you are a hack of some sort, maybe?? I could learn how to do it too but why would I, since I have no sinister agenda of surrepticiously snooping
into other peoples data or using their internet
connection. I am not making any assuptions or casting any accusations at you but I have to wonder why you know how to crack or hack stuff.
Why does anyone wish to learn evil things??
Is there some king of power trip or ego thing
going on here concerning this kind of knowledge ?? As far as knowing that many people in your town I also wonder what their motivation for learning things like that is.......


I live in a city of about 350 000, and I can name more than 20 people off the top of my head who can easily do this, myself included.

Wireless networks should also have MAC-address filtering enabled, as an added measure. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

mortoma
06-18-2007, 07:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWSensei:
I have two wireless networks in my home. Mainly due to intervening walls. I actually have them connected via wireless bridge (WDS connection). The bridge part is encrypted, and I have MAC address filtering.

I've done network engineering and systems engineering (certified in Sun/Solaris high end 128-way processor heavy iron as well as cluster support) and CISCO certified.

While as a general rule of thumb 11B won't get you faster than G it's not a hard and fast rule. In reality, due to overhead, signal strength etc, on average effective throughput on an 11B network on a constant basis is going to be from 250kbs to 650kbs. On a G it is going to be 400kbs to 4096kbs. If you have a DSL modem with a 768kbs download you are more likely to better utilize the bandwidth with a G router than with a B.

If you have more than one computer sharing the wireless you will get more effective throughput with a G over a B as well.

Now, my setup at home is far more complex than the average as I do a ton of multimedia streaming over the home network (Tivo, Slingbox, media servers etc) and one of the features on a new G or N router is bandwidth shaping/allocation. This allows me to limit my son's machine to no more than 768K down load/upload so his Warcraft playing doesn't suck up all the bandwidth while I'm playing IL2, or if my wife starts downloading videos from YouTube she doesn't exceed the 1.5Mbs I've allocated her. This has worked really well and I find the throughput to my network to be much smoother. Shoot, the Slinbox will suck up to 4MBs on the internal network but by utilizing the bandwidth controls that no longer causes my wife's laptop to slow to a crawl on looking at Ebay. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I also have a wireless printer located downstairs in a utility closet that allows my wife to print off things downstairs without having to run upstairs everytime she needs something. OK, the real reason was I got tired of being in the middle of a dogfight and getting a big stutter because she fired off a recipe printout to the printer on my machine that I was sharing. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

As to the security question some is better than none, but not everyone needs to be Fort Knox lock down either. I use some of the basic security to make my network more of a pain to hack than someone else's. I view it similar to locking my car. Just because a good car thief can break into any car doesn't mean I leave the door unlocked and the keys in the ignition. No, I lock the door and turn on the alarm. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>When we went to G I did not get any faster connection speed than I did with B really. I think you may be right about some improved throughput but I don't think it's significant.

na85
06-18-2007, 07:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mortoma:
Why do you know how to do this?? I can't think of any reason except you are a hack of some sort, maybe?? I could learn how to do it too but why would I, since I have no sinister agenda of surrepticiously snooping
into other peoples data or using their internet
connection. I am not making any assuptions or
casting any accusations at you but I have to wonder why you know how to crack or hack stuff.
Why does anyone wish to learn evil things??
Is there some king of power trip or ego thing
going on here concerning this kind of knowledge ??
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you know how to stab someone with a knife? I wonder why you know how to kill people.

---

Is it evil to know something or is it evil to do something?

I relished the challenge, mostly. Just because I know HOW to break WEP keys doesn't mean I have some sort of sinister agenda.

Spare me the melodrama.

mortoma
06-18-2007, 07:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Philipscdrw:
I used wireless LAN for about six hours, when I moved into my current student house last October. Four housemates, three with PCs, two using wireless and one parked next to the router. I live at the other side of the house to the router and found I couldn't get a reliable connection. With hindsight it was probably the out-of-subscription remnants of Norton Internet Security that was causing the problem but I returned the wireless card anyway and got a 20m ethernet cable and a box of staples...

I've set up MAC address filtering for the wireless router. Housemates had tried without success to set up the WEP encryption before I arrived and had given up. Is MAC-filtering sufficient without WEP? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I was told by a Linksys tech support dude that wirless MAC addressing was very good security. He also said there was a way to change your wirless routers IP address. Doing so supposedly helps stop people trying to log into your router and change settings in your wireless config. I don't know if this is such a concern if you password protect the login. but a lot of people don't I guess.

na85
06-18-2007, 07:52 PM
Good ways to protect your wireless:

- disable SSID broadcast
- Change the router's IP from the default
- create a login/password for administrative functions
- MAC filtering
- WEP key

mortoma
06-18-2007, 07:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by na85:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mortoma:
Why do you know how to do this?? I can't think of any reason except you are a hack of some sort, maybe?? I could learn how to do it too but why would I, since I have no sinister agenda of surrepticiously snooping
into other peoples data or using their internet
connection. I am not making any assuptions or
casting any accusations at you but I have to wonder why you know how to crack or hack stuff.
Why does anyone wish to learn evil things??
Is there some king of power trip or ego thing
going on here concerning this kind of knowledge ??
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you know how to stab someone with a knife? I wonder why you know how to kill people.

---

Is it evil to know something or is it evil to do something?

I relished the challenge, mostly. Just because I know HOW to break WEP keys doesn't mean I have some sort of sinister agenda.

Spare me the melodrama. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Illogical since one needs not even learn how to stab with a knife. One needs to go out of their way, a lot out of their way, to learn sophisticated hacking and cracking techniques. It's my thread so I can be melodramatic if I want to. And you can feel free to tune out my thread and ignore it if you want to. If you read my post, I said I was not making any assumptions about you or anybody. Seems you are wanting an excuse to get all defensive and offended. You don't like what I have to say then just don't come into this thread any more. Very simple.

Monterey13
06-18-2007, 08:08 PM
I don't like routers at all, so I don't use them. They cause more headaches than they're worth. Just look at all of the router help threads.

I use a hub to connect my pc's, and I have multiple IP's from my ISP.

Matz0r
06-19-2007, 05:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Secondly, while 128 bit encryption is for sure more secure than 64 bit, 64 bit is in no way insecure or easily crackable. A 64 bit encryption key was in fact recently cracked, only trouble is, it took a world-wide team of over 331,000 people over four years to crack the key!! A ten digit hexadecimal key has over 80 quadrillion possible combinations/permutations. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's because the RC5-64 challenge was a brute force attack - to test every possible key in the key space. Now since WEP uses static keys it's vulnerable to stream cipher attacks, basically if the attacker can find two identical messages he can find the key in no time at all. Because of the nature of computer networks finding identical messages is no big deal and the how common identical messages appear is directly related to cipher key length. So say with a 40-bit wep key you might need 3 minutes to find 2 identical messages, 7 hours with 56, 2 days with 64 and 28 days for 128-bit. This also depends on the amount of traffic on the network. So if you're a single user on a 64 bit wireless it might take your neighbours a week to a couple of months to crack your WEP depending on how much you use the network. It's up to each individual to decide how much security they want, for a private person the WEP/WPA security might be enough. Professionals use a VPN if they have to use WLAN technology, otherwise it's avoided like the plague.

SithSpeeder
06-19-2007, 11:47 AM
WPA is considered much more secure than WEP (older tech).

There are always people looking for the "easy" way, and the lure to do something illegal is simply too high.

One of the biggest and fastest emerging crimes is identity theft and credit card fraud. Many folks use financial software or keep electronic receipts or records on their computer or in their email. Remember the X-thousands of SSN numbers that were grabbed when someone stole a laptop from the Veterans Administration?

Still others use their home computers for work. Another emerging battleground is intellectual property (IP). If you don't think competitors would figuratively kill for technical and marketing day, you'd be wrong. Then there is government level espionage (e.g. China and US).

There is a whole lot of really good reasons to do what na85 said:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Good ways to protect your wireless:

- disable SSID broadcast
- Change the router's IP from the default
- create a secure login/password for administrative functions (see: http://www.securitystats.com/tools/password.php)
- MAC filtering
- WPA key </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
- software firewall (to check inbound AND outbound)
- NAT firewall
- anti-spyware
- anti-virus

Yeah, it seems like a lot of pain to set-up, test, get working, etc. But once you do get it going, you just have to handle updating your software every once in a while or downloading new definitions. It's NOT rocket science (and I can say that being a former rocket scientist http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ).

YMMV.

* _54th_Speeder *

Hoatee
06-19-2007, 02:22 PM
If the computer is ever to replace the television set as the centre of urban home life, then it has to be able to be operated all as simply and as securely (huh? security an issue for tv?).

neural_dream
06-19-2007, 02:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mortoma:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by na85:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mortoma:
Why do you know how to do this?? I can't think of any reason except you are a hack of some sort, maybe?? I could learn how to do it too but why would I, since I have no sinister agenda of surrepticiously snooping
into other peoples data or using their internet
connection. I am not making any assuptions or
casting any accusations at you but I have to wonder why you know how to crack or hack stuff.
Why does anyone wish to learn evil things??
Is there some king of power trip or ego thing
going on here concerning this kind of knowledge ??
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you know how to stab someone with a knife? I wonder why you know how to kill people.

---

Is it evil to know something or is it evil to do something?

I relished the challenge, mostly. Just because I know HOW to break WEP keys doesn't mean I have some sort of sinister agenda.

Spare me the melodrama. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Illogical since one needs not even learn how to stab with a knife. One needs to go out of their way, a lot out of their way, to learn sophisticated hacking and cracking techniques. It's my thread so I can be melodramatic if I want to. And you can feel free to tune out my thread and ignore it if you want to. If you read my post, I said I was not making any assumptions about you or anybody. Seems you are wanting an excuse to get all defensive and offended. You don't like what I have to say then just don't come into this thread any more. Very simple. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
mortoma you ve been pwned - just accept it. You think that something so archaic (i.e. not developed in the last 15 days) is difficult to crack and wonder how a 22-year-old knows more than you =&gt; he should be an evil hacker.

As for your roommates, they know less than you do and found what they said and did to be reasonable. See the trend?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SithSpeeder:
One of the biggest and fastest emerging crimes is identity theft and credit card fraud. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
It's pretty much stabilised now. No more rise, but still terribly common.

B16Enk
06-19-2007, 02:43 PM
I'm with WWSensei on this.
Remember the bandwidth is shared amongst the wireless clients, 11Mb doesn't go as far as 54, 108..

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWSensei:
I have two wireless networks in my home. Mainly due to intervening walls. I actually have them connected via wireless bridge (WDS connection). The bridge part is encrypted, and I have MAC address filtering.

I've done network engineering and systems engineering (certified in Sun/Solaris high end 128-way processor heavy iron as well as cluster support) and CISCO certified.

While as a general rule of thumb 11B won't get you faster than G it's not a hard and fast rule. In reality, due to overhead, signal strength etc, on average effective throughput on an 11B network on a constant basis is going to be from 250kbs to 650kbs. On a G it is going to be 400kbs to 4096kbs. If you have a DSL modem with a 768kbs download you are more likely to better utilize the bandwidth with a G router than with a B.

If you have more than one computer sharing the wireless you will get more effective throughput with a G over a B as well.

Now, my setup at home is far more complex than the average as I do a ton of multimedia streaming over the home network (Tivo, Slingbox, media servers etc) and one of the features on a new G or N router is bandwidth shaping/allocation. This allows me to limit my son's machine to no more than 768K down load/upload so his Warcraft playing doesn't suck up all the bandwidth while I'm playing IL2, or if my wife starts downloading videos from YouTube she doesn't exceed the 1.5Mbs I've allocated her. This has worked really well and I find the throughput to my network to be much smoother. Shoot, the Slinbox will suck up to 4MBs on the internal network but by utilizing the bandwidth controls that no longer causes my wife's laptop to slow to a crawl on looking at Ebay. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I also have a wireless printer located downstairs in a utility closet that allows my wife to print off things downstairs without having to run upstairs everytime she needs something. OK, the real reason was I got tired of being in the middle of a dogfight and getting a big stutter because she fired off a recipe printout to the printer on my machine that I was sharing. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

As to the security question some is better than none, but not everyone needs to be Fort Knox lock down either. I use some of the basic security to make my network more of a pain to hack than someone else's. I view it similar to locking my car. Just because a good car thief can break into any car doesn't mean I leave the door unlocked and the keys in the ignition. No, I lock the door and turn on the alarm. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>