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View Full Version : Banning Planes Online & Open Letter to the Community [LONG POST WARNING]



waffen-79
02-11-2006, 02:05 AM
Hi guys

I'm wondering a couple of things and I need your help figuring them out. I joined this fine community in May'05.

If any of you have comments about any of the points below please reply.

I wasn't present in the discussions (development/release) of the Forgotten Battles and Aces Expansion Pack.

Also I don't follow often the ORR Forum.

With the premise that Heavy/Long Range Bombers(3 or more engines) could not be in the game due to lack of cockpits or game engine limitations...

1. Who decides what plane is going to be included in the next patch/addon?

2. What methods are used to determine it?

3. Gibbage said Luftwaffe fanboys (lwfb) whinned about the YP-80, how loud and heavy was it?

4. Did reds whine the same when the Me-262,Me-163,He-162,Go-229 were released? as they're today with the Do-335, K-4 C3

5. Why do you think Oleg included the exotic luftwaffe planes over, for instance the Meteor?

6. What other exotic Allied (esp British and American) planes SHOULD be included.

7. Why on warclouds almost everybody(allied) fly the neu Spit IX 25lbs, Tempest, Mosquito? is it bc they're new? [granted a lot of lwfb fly the K-4 c3 but not many... and flying the JU-88 isn't exactly an advantage]

8. If Jets were Included on the planesets of servers you think everybody would be flying the jets?

9. What is exactly an Historical Online Mission and what elements are mandatory? (IMO I don't think anyone could gather all the elements or have complete control of the mission)

10. Are we to expect more new planes or just diff variantes of the existing ones?

11. Any other Epic whine worth mentioning? (any side)

12. Any chance getting new cokpit for the P-47 and Me-163?

13. Why they keep changing the FM of the P-51 series?

14. Will they correct the Fw-190A series boost?

15. IYO will the exotic LW planes wiil ever see the light Online? why?

And last I will share with you my Idea of the perfect FB+AEP+PF Server

Featuring:

2 sides: Axis(blue) and Allies(red)
Constant Plane Set
Full Real, No Icons, Unlimited Lives, Everything goes except TK and KS
Non Heavy Scripted Missions
Bases with AAA MG and LIGHT Flak
Static Ships
All maps with large mases of water i.e. Islands or big lakes (no all-land maps)

PlaneSet

with common sence including the most succesful '44 & '45 (i.e: La-7, Yak-3P, P-51,47,38,109G-K,190A-D,Ta-152,Tempest PTO birds) planes PLUS:

Remaining SpitFires
MOSQUITO (a must)
Bf-110
BeauFighter
A-20
B-25
He-111
He-162
Ju-88
YP-80
Me-262
Do-335
Go-229

I know that the bigger the plane set the more of lag but that would be a killer server.

Regards, waffen out

waffen-79
02-11-2006, 02:05 AM
Hi guys

I'm wondering a couple of things and I need your help figuring them out. I joined this fine community in May'05.

If any of you have comments about any of the points below please reply.

I wasn't present in the discussions (development/release) of the Forgotten Battles and Aces Expansion Pack.

Also I don't follow often the ORR Forum.

With the premise that Heavy/Long Range Bombers(3 or more engines) could not be in the game due to lack of cockpits or game engine limitations...

1. Who decides what plane is going to be included in the next patch/addon?

2. What methods are used to determine it?

3. Gibbage said Luftwaffe fanboys (lwfb) whinned about the YP-80, how loud and heavy was it?

4. Did reds whine the same when the Me-262,Me-163,He-162,Go-229 were released? as they're today with the Do-335, K-4 C3

5. Why do you think Oleg included the exotic luftwaffe planes over, for instance the Meteor?

6. What other exotic Allied (esp British and American) planes SHOULD be included.

7. Why on warclouds almost everybody(allied) fly the neu Spit IX 25lbs, Tempest, Mosquito? is it bc they're new? [granted a lot of lwfb fly the K-4 c3 but not many... and flying the JU-88 isn't exactly an advantage]

8. If Jets were Included on the planesets of servers you think everybody would be flying the jets?

9. What is exactly an Historical Online Mission and what elements are mandatory? (IMO I don't think anyone could gather all the elements or have complete control of the mission)

10. Are we to expect more new planes or just diff variantes of the existing ones?

11. Any other Epic whine worth mentioning? (any side)

12. Any chance getting new cokpit for the P-47 and Me-163?

13. Why they keep changing the FM of the P-51 series?

14. Will they correct the Fw-190A series boost?

15. IYO will the exotic LW planes wiil ever see the light Online? why?

And last I will share with you my Idea of the perfect FB+AEP+PF Server

Featuring:

2 sides: Axis(blue) and Allies(red)
Constant Plane Set
Full Real, No Icons, Unlimited Lives, Everything goes except TK and KS
Non Heavy Scripted Missions
Bases with AAA MG and LIGHT Flak
Static Ships
All maps with large mases of water i.e. Islands or big lakes (no all-land maps)

PlaneSet

with common sence including the most succesful '44 & '45 (i.e: La-7, Yak-3P, P-51,47,38,109G-K,190A-D,Ta-152,Tempest PTO birds) planes PLUS:

Remaining SpitFires
MOSQUITO (a must)
Bf-110
BeauFighter
A-20
B-25
He-111
He-162
Ju-88
YP-80
Me-262
Do-335
Go-229

I know that the bigger the plane set the more of lag but that would be a killer server.

Regards, waffen out

VonShlagnoff
02-11-2006, 03:41 AM
Ah at last someone who feels the same as me, I feel that the late War planes, jets and oddities get an unfair reputation on this forum. IMHO they only enhance and add to the flavour and variety of this game. I will happily fly any plane on the plane set and if someone is fly something quicker than me then so be it, after all was it not like that in real life?

That plane list you listed looks amazing, if I ever get my broadband back I will host a few maps with it

Brain32
02-11-2006, 03:55 AM
=S= Let's go:
1. Don't really know but I'm strongly convinced Oleg does that based on the model quality.
2. See 1. model quality and accuracy
3. Do not remember that...
4. Do not remember that...
5. They were made by 3rd party modellers, Meteor etc. were not.
6. Don't know much about that topic...I think no more exoctic(synonim for banned)should be included in the game.
7. Because they are new and nice to fly especially the new Spit, Blue don't fly new K4 much because it's nothing special(I would call it flying frustration, grave, The Refly machine, Me109O where O is Overheat, etc.)
8. I seriously believe they wouldn't(I would personally use it for groundpounding exclusively).
9. historical planestets, on apropriate map describing a historical event
10. Do not know, it's up to the O. Maddox and his team.
11. Bah, is it important?
12. I believe not.
13. EDIT: Because it's not making aces...
14. You mean A4? Maybe.
15. Maybe Me262, why? Because people think they are uber, they don't want to see a Luft plane having so much speed(BTW Red are IMHO a bit opssesed with speed)
All my answers are IMO.

Capt_Haddock
02-11-2006, 04:05 AM
Oleg has implemented every single new plane that met his quality standards. There's no big plan. It's just down to the 3rd party modellers. If you can't find your long range bombers is beacuse no one has made them.

He has also mentioned in the past that his programmers implement first the planes they like the most. That's why we already have the Pfeil but we are still waiting for the Fokker XXI (already finished).

http://www.haddock.f2s.com/sig/F19bannerh3.jpg

carguy_
02-11-2006, 04:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by waffen-79:
3. Gibbage said Luftwaffe fanboys (lwfb) whinned about the YP-80, how loud and heavy was it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Gibbage1 himself started the YP80 campaign when the Me262 was sure to be in FB.Given the fact that two of those flew non-combat sorties in Italy was not enough of an obstacle for red fanboys to whine for a plane that was,from the start,meant to counter the Me262.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">4. Did reds whine the same when the Me-262,Me-163,He-162,Go-229 were released? as they're today with the Do-335, K-4 C3 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Me262 topic has always been interesting.Luftwaffles were eager to have it cuz in IL2 LW was just a target starting from `43 having the top plane of Me109G6/Late.Been there,got owned many times.
When FB was in the works there was a good hope of including Me262 in FB.
Red whiners immediately started measuring its performance.General consensus was that Me262 will run out of fuel until it reaches combat area.Man you should see how ugly it got when the Me262 had anything but low fuel.
At first whines about how unbeatable and uber it was and how cowardly the B&Z tactics were.For the first weeks after FB release latewar servers blossomed with Me262 owning reds so much it was getting silly.
By popular request someone began banning them from servers and that`s how it has been ever since.

He162
After few days in online servers totally banned.I`ve never ever flown an online sortie in it.

Me163
Too good.Banned.

Gotha229
Flown few server days hen immediately banned.Followed by excessive whines of huge loss of resources due to including a plane that was never meant to be flown.

K4`45 and Do335 whines can be described as medium currently.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">5. Why do you think Oleg included the exotic luftwaffe planes over, for instance the Meteor? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

-they were completed early
-they were easy to implement
-no one would whine about their real life performance


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">7. Why on warclouds almost everybody(allied) fly the neu Spit IX 25lbs, Tempest, Mosquito? is it bc they're new? [granted a lot of lwfb fly the K-4 c3 but not many... and flying the JU-88 isn't exactly an advantage] </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

New Spit is the ultimate answer to late LW planes.Ownz them everywhere,everytime.If you can`t do in a P51D,you select a Spit and it`s all good.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">8. If Jets were Included on the planesets of servers you think everybody would be flying the jets? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In the beginning when they were still available servers became literally infested with them.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">9. What is exactly an Historical Online Mission and what elements are mandatory? (IMO I don't think anyone could gather all the elements or have complete control of the mission) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Too hard bcuz of too many factors mandatory.Closest are online wars.Visit CAD and IL2WAR sites.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">10. Are we to expect more new planes or just diff variantes of the existing ones? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oleg showed how quickly a boosted plane can be implemented in da game.We should aim for this.Not much work for 1C and joy to us.
General idea is to substitude not implemented machines with already flyable with close performance.Dora9 should be boosted to match D13,A4 should be boosted to western front standards,G6`43 should be boosted for latewar usage etc.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">11. Any other Epic whine worth mentioning? (any side) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sow me a bigger whine than a 50cal whine.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
13. Why they keep changing the FM of the P-51 series? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They`re doing this as if they were blind-folded.Every change hopes for a glorious return of P51 whereas online experience shows otherwise.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">14. Will they correct the Fw-190A series boost? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Easy thing to do.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">15. IYO will the exotic LW planes wiil ever see the light Online? why? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don`t hope for DF servers.In coops we have them flying every single day.

Hristo_
02-11-2006, 05:13 AM
1. Who decides what plane is going to be included in the next patch/addon?

Probably Oleg & team. Maybe community has influence in case of warwinners http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.


2. What methods are used to determine it?

Methods ?


3. Gibbage said Luftwaffe fanboys (lwfb) whinned about the YP-80, how loud and heavy was it?

Gibbage says a lot of things http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


4. Did reds whine the same when the Me-262,Me-163,He-162,Go-229 were released? as they're today with the Do-335, K-4 C3

First they whined in advance, then whined for banning those planes.


5. Why do you think Oleg included the exotic luftwaffe planes over, for instance the Meteor?

Me 262, He 162 and Me 163 are not exotics. especially Me 262 was regular ocurrence in 1944/45.


Exotics are Go229 and somewhat Do335. Gibbage modeled both. On second thought, he modeled more exotics - YP-80 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Meteor has little to offer compared to Me 262, so not very interesting to model. It also never engaged in combat with enemy planes.


6. What other exotic Allied (esp British and American) planes SHOULD be included.

Exotic ? IMO, anything from Sopwith Camel to F-22. Server admins can then decide which ones should fly.


7. Why on warclouds almost everybody(allied) fly the neu Spit IX 25lbs, Tempest, Mosquito? is it bc they're new? [granted a lot of lwfb fly the K-4 c3 but not many... and flying the JU-88 isn't exactly an advantage]

They are new and they are good.


8. If Jets were Included on the planesets of servers you think everybody would be flying the jets?

Only Blue side had jets flying in combat in real life. This is roughly 50% of players. Die hard fans of props will not fly them, so I give 50/50 distribution.

IMO, 1/4 of player population would fly the Me 262 if enabled.


9. What is exactly an Historical Online Mission and what elements are mandatory? (IMO I don't think anyone could gather all the elements or have complete control of the mission)

Strap on lederhosen, shoot down Indianer, shout Horrido and come to this board to brag. Repeat.


10. Are we to expect more new planes or just diff variantes of the existing ones?

Are we alone in the universe ?


11. Any other Epic whine worth mentioning? (any side)

It is about to happen. When Me 262 returns to where it should be - on 1944/45 servers.


12. Any chance getting new cokpit for the P-47 and Me-163?

Even if you started modeling it right now, probably not.


13. Why they keep changing the FM of the P-51 series?

Flipflopping between Red whining and engineering approach.


14. Will they correct the Fw-190A series boost?

Probably.


15. IYO will the exotic LW planes wiil ever see the light Online? why?

Exotic planes belong to exotic servers. I have seen servers with Go229, YP-80 and Bi-1 enabled.

OldMan____
02-11-2006, 06:01 AM
If Me262 was banned because it was good and everyone flew it.. lets start a campaign.. ban the 25 lb Spit !!! Because I see 99% of planes are Spit 25lb or Temptest now. It gets REAALY silly. And these don´t have the disadvanteges that Me262 have.

SeaFireLIV
02-11-2006, 06:13 AM
The only reason to bann some planes off some severs if they are used in an unhistorical manner.

For instance, having 10 Me262s against 10 Allied fighters is not only unfair, but highly unhistorical. What would be better is 2 me262s and 8 standard LW planes against 10 Allied. Actually, the ratio should be more like 15 Allied versus 1 me262 and 4 normal Axis.

Remember, me262 online pilots are BETTER then their real-life counterparts as they get to learn from their mistakes. When the Me262 first came out in FB it was very realistic in that the online pilots never really knew what to do and made very similar mistakes to reality (engine burnout, not throttling gently, etc), but now they`re experts and 2 me262s can quite possibly `own` a server.

Other planes may be banned because they didn`t exist or weren`t actually used.

It does get silly if a plane that did exist in numbers gets banned though just because it`s actual good. I remeber when the I16 type 24 was banned off a 1940s server simply because its cannons were too good! Stupid. It existed in numbers at the time. The trick is to work together to defeat it - Team work, hard for a lot of people to get.

Hawgdog
02-11-2006, 06:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:


For instance, having 10 Me262s against 10 Allied fighters is not only unfair, but highly unhistorical. What would be better is 2 me262s and 8 standard LW planes against 10 Allied. Actually, the ratio should be more like 15 Allied versus 1 me262 and 4 normal Axis.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

With respect:

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHA

If this were true, This virtual war would have been over already! Been flying since 2001, its 2006......so we'd be in Berlin already LOL
I think banning planes- other than 109z types is poppyclackers (take that bad word filter)

Brain32
02-11-2006, 06:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Remember, me262 online pilots are BETTER then their real-life counterparts as they get to learn from their mistakes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
This apply's for all planes, the big difference is that even with expirience, you can not prevail big shortcomings of some planes, Me262 is far from uber, it climbs badly, it accelerates badly, it doesen't turn, it rolls average, all it has is speed(once you gain it) and firepower.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> The trick is to work together to defeat it - Team work, hard for a lot of people to get. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Exactly, and I don't see why people fail to recognize that problem when it comes to Me262.
I say yes, limit it's numbers(like on WC) but include it, you can deny it as hard as you can but it was one of the icons of WW2...

jds1978
02-11-2006, 06:59 AM
If it was there in RL it should be implemented on the servers

banning a historic battle tested plane because it's too good is a joke

waffen-79
02-11-2006, 08:53 AM
thanks for yer comments guys, plz keep'em coming

LEBillfish
02-11-2006, 09:12 AM
Past the "conspiracy theories" as what makes anyone think they are so important or so focussed on by Oleg/1c that they either get, or don't get what THEY want......

The real problem many here seem to have is simple........Quit flying the servers that offer ALL planes when you want to fly an obsolete one.

I myself prefer 1943 and prior plane sets. To me it's simply more interesting, and it was an odd time of debating/changing from turn & burn to zoom & boom as a tactic vs. a policy of plane design..........Yet ALL planes here have their place. The trouble is many servers don't "balance" out plane-sets. I can't count the servers I've seen that offer A6M2-nothing zero's vs. Hellcats, late P51's & late Corsairs. In kind I've seen servers that offer late axis planes, yet utilize mediocre allied.

So the problem is not what is included in the sim, yet what is offered by the server operator (which is 100% their choice not yours)....Your choice however is to not fly it if unbalanced.

Lastly, be fair yourself. If at a particular moment in time your side had cr*p planes and theirs had the next generation.....Deal with it, as the real life pilots had to as well so you'll get little pity from anyone in that regard.

All planes have a place.......Just not together.

Xiolablu3
02-12-2006, 03:01 AM
I agree about the early war maps being interesting, Zero/Ki61 Vs Seafire/Spit 5, La5 vs 109G2 and Hurricane vs Oscars are classic match ups for the fighters.

Ukdedicated admins take LOTS of care over the planesets on their maps, and constantly tweak them. There are maps from all theatres from all periods. You should try server 2, its really good. There are maps with Jets too.

They have just added new server software which limits a certain plane to a certain amount, which means we can have all the ubers in tiny numbers, but once they are destoyed they are gone. This was particualry bad last night when we were using Zeros vs p40 and F4F and winning but the moment we ran out of Zeros and had to move to Oscars the whole tide turned and we only just scraped a win.

I think being able to limit numbers of planes is something that has been needed for a long time. The software is still beta and there are bugs but they are working them out quickly with the help of us flyers. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif It means all the planes can be used with no fear of 20 blue players flying 20 Me262's for example.

Come and fly with us one night and try it out. Every flyable plane in Il2 is used on the maps at some point. Scenarios from 1938-1946.

Xiolablu3
02-12-2006, 03:11 AM
Oh and I'm all for the Me262 as long as the people who call for it fly AGAINST it once in a while.

There should be around 4-8 me262's on a map of 80 aircraft, this would be a good ratio.

Tully__
02-12-2006, 05:12 AM
1. Community modellors contribute models. 1C:Maddox decide whether they meet the standard and if there is enough flight performance data available to do a reasonably accurate job of doing the flight model.
2. Is the 3D model available? How much time will it take to add the flight model?
3. Not as loud or heavy as the allied whining about the Gotha flying wing http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
4. See point 3 above
5. Because there were models available and time available on the dev team to do the FM's and DM's.
6. That's entirely subjective.
7. New aircraft always get a bit of a rush from those interested in the type.
8. No (unless it's new, then only for a short period).
9. Subjective again, it depends what those participating deem is necessary for it to be considered historic.
10. Depends on the modellors, the time available to the development team and the available flight performance data.
12. Doubtful, it would depend on either the original modellor deciding to redo it then on 1C:Maddox agreeing to release the redone version in an upgrade. Alternately, 1C:Maddox would have to have another modellor interested that they were SURE would do a good job in a short time and then release the exernal model to the second modellor so he/she would have a model to "check for proper fit".
13. Same reason they keep changing the FM on all the other aircraft. Trying to get it more right than it was in the last version. As far as I can make out the flight model in this sim is two part. The first part is a mathematic representation of the aircraft structure, the second is a mathematical model of how external forces apply to that structure depending attitude, speed, direction of travel, current power and control settings etc.. A change to the second part to improve overall modelling will affect all aircraft, but sometimes this results in undesirable effects in a particular aircraft so in the next release a further change will be required for the first part of the model for the individual aircraft that have not responded appropriately to the global change. This has been going on for all aicraft, not just the P-51, right through the entire game series.
14. I'd be guessing.
15. Yes. Coz there's always someone willing to run just about any type of server.

HarlockGN
02-12-2006, 05:57 AM
Luftwhiners (kinda early i guess, gives me memories), were used to the idea of axis planes shooting down the russians in droves. This didn't happen and they learned on their skin that they had to rely on skills and piloting to win, so they whined.
Of course the reds didn't like it, and criticized them with all they had, under the flag of "Oleg is god, he knows".
Then american planes came, and many reds were used to the idea of their grandfathers having won the war. Despite hours and hours of searching, they didn't find an "instawin" button in their pony's cockpit and they learned on their skin that they had to rely on skills and piloting to win, so they whined.
Poor Oleg, in the few years between Il-2 Sturmovik and PF he's been demoted from god to devil in the eyes of so many...
Unfortunately guys, being biased is a bad, bad thing, and i seriously doubt Oleg is the most biased one, here.

This is roughly the story of this community, from the release of Il-2 Sturmovik to now.
Despite the presence of so many good fellows i've been genuinely surprised to see where the supposed maturity of the flight simmers community has gone, wiped out by a silly bias that would be better placed on an FPS' or an RTS' forums...

robban75
02-12-2006, 06:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HarlockGN:
Luftwhiners (kinda early i guess, gives me memories), were used to the idea of axis planes shooting down the russians in droves. This didn't happen and they learned on their skin that they had to rely on skills and piloting to win, so they whined.
Of course the reds didn't like it, and criticized them with all they had, under the flag of "Oleg is god, he knows".
Then american planes came, and many reds were used to the idea of their grandfathers having won the war. Despite hours and hours of searching, they didn't find an "instawin" button in their pony's cockpit and they learned on their skin that they had to rely on skills and piloting to win, so they whined.
Poor Oleg, in the few years between Il-2 Sturmovik and PF he's been demoted from god to devil in the eyes of so many...
Unfortunately guys, being biased is a bad, bad thing, and i seriously doubt Oleg is the most biased one, here.

This is roughly the story of this community, from the release of Il-2 Sturmovik to now.
Despite the presence of so many good fellows i've been genuinely surprised to see where the supposed maturity of the flight simmers community has gone, wiped out by a silly bias that would be better placed on an FPS' or an RTS' forums... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Good post. Sad, funny, and true at the same time. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Cossack13
02-12-2006, 07:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by waffen-79:
3. Gibbage said Luftwaffe fanboys (lwfb) whinned about the YP-80, how loud and heavy was it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Geez, go back and look up the vitriolic rants posted by Isegrim against Gibbage around the time of the YP-80's release. It's suprising that Gibbage was willing to do anymore projects for FB afterwards (with the exception that every additional one he did proved who was wrong and who was right).

In the end, Isegrim was rewarded with a well-deserved ban.

mortoma
02-12-2006, 09:50 AM
If everybody was like me and didn't have to be nationalistic or Red or Blue, then things would be more sane around here. I fly all planes for all sides and couldn't care less about Allied or Axis pride. Or being an American, Russian or German or whatever that has to still be on his Nations side, out of misplaced pride/patriotism. In a very real way, there is still a war going on some 60 years after the real thing ended. And a lot of it is being fought in the servers and in this forum. Totally senseless really and truly sad.

VW-IceFire
02-12-2006, 10:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mortoma:
If everybody was like me and didn't have to be nationalistic or Red or Blue, then things would be more sane around here. I fly all planes for all sides and couldn't care less about Allied or Axis pride. Or being an American, Russian or German or whatever that has to still be on his Nations side, out of misplaced pride/patriotism. In a very real way, there is still a war going on some 60 years after the real thing ended. And a lot of it is being fought in the servers and in this forum. Totally senseless really and truly sad. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
SO true. Thats the problem with far too many people out there on the servers. Nationalistic pride means they think they can take on all comers and that they have let their own nation down in some way for being shot down...?!? Then they blame it on the guy who made the simulation? I suppose the real pilots blamed the guy who made the plane??

Its simple...fly every plane. Learn how it works in the confines of the game and try and do well if thats your focus. If your focus is establishing historicaly accuracy...then you won't care what side of plane it is...you're interested in numbers and test cases alone. Regardless of who shot you down the other night.

Nubarus
02-12-2006, 11:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carguy_:
Sow me a bigger whine than a 50cal whine. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The FW190 "Bar" whine and since the latest patch the Bf109 got shafted whine.

waffen-79
02-12-2006, 11:48 AM
thanks NOW I understand some of the talks around here.

I guess you could say I'm a little biased (lwfb here) but I DO fly the P-47,P-40 variantes, B-25 & A-20 a lot

Brain32
02-12-2006, 11:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> The FW190 "Bar" whine and since the latest patch the Bf109 got shafted whine.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
OK, I'll give you a credit for the Fw190 bar whine, although I wander what would .50 whine become if Oleg would simply say NO like he did to those that were whining about the bar.
As for the 109, Red seems to whine more about it than blue, since the last patch there were 2-3 threads about it, 10 times less then Red whined about it before we even got the patch http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Nubarus
02-12-2006, 12:03 PM
Well, this isn't really the first patch "Blue" is whining that their Bf109 got shafted.

As far as I can see BOTH sides whine pretty much equally and they also whine that the other side is whining more.

So basicly this forum is nearly full of whiners periode.

HarlockGN
02-12-2006, 08:33 PM
The only difference is that most of the red whiners are the ones that furiously blamed luftwhiners when they whined first. At least luftwhiners where coherent enough to whine from the very start and just continue to do it :P
(obviously i'm KINDA joking :P)

StellarRat
02-12-2006, 10:19 PM
I think the better question is why were all these resources wasted modeling planes that never flew or were flown in such small numbers as to be insignificant as far as affecting the outcome of the war? All that time wasted when we don't have one in cockpit heavy bomber. I would trade them all for a B-17, B-24 or even a Lancaster that we could use in a full real server. Then we'd be able to play almost every major air campaign of the war.

HarlockGN
02-12-2006, 11:17 PM
The answer is simple:
Because the ones that actually spent the time and resources to model the "planes that never flew or were flown in such small numbers as to be insignificant as far as affecting the outcome of the war" personally liked them enough to actually decide it was worth it. They did it for free and Oleg and 1C honored their free work by adding the planes to the sim.
By any means feel free to model a B-17, B-24 or Lancaster (model and cockpit in this last case) that will meet Oleg's and 1C standards of quality and i'm fairly sure your work will be considered for addition.
(this putting aside the fact that the IL-2 engine and map configuration doesn't really make the sim the best choice for heavy bombing simulation)

Keep in mind that online GAMING is not the primary aim here, and even balancing of forces is not an issue in a realistic simulation.
Oleg and 1C don't make any decision on balancing, those are made by server hosts, that create missions to fit their own taste and personal ideas on balancing them, this IF they want them to be balanced at all (that's not a given, nor something necessary when you want to re-create history).
On the point of view of Offline simulation and online MISSION simulation, any FREE plane is a GOOD plane, and can lead to interesting and varied simulative experiences.
It never saw combat? who cares? It's free, it's good to have it.

StellarRat
02-13-2006, 12:25 AM
Seems to me a game about WWII should have the MOST common planes modeled first and the less common planes modeled later. We could probably simulate 90% of the combat with 10% of the planes. Also, most of planes were done by Oleg and company (I think.) The map config is fine if we could get a air start base at 20000 ft. (that's another thing that should be added.)

HarlockGN
02-13-2006, 09:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by StellarRat:
Seems to me a game about WWII should have the MOST common planes modeled first and the less common planes modeled later. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That it had when it was released, but sure not Oleg nor you, nor anyone else can decide what the COMMUNITY modelers decide to do with their OWN free time.
Just thank them for their work, and if you don't like those planes just don't fly them and don't include them in your servers.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">for We could probably simulate 90% of the combat with 10% of the planes. Also, most of planes were done by Oleg and company (I think.) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually most of the planes added after the release were made by free modelers.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The map config is fine if we could get a air start base at 20000 ft. (that's another thing that should be added.) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And where are you going to land? And how is this any realistic, since you talk about full realism servers? (this without taking into account that the engine of this sim is NOT toned for high altitude combat, and most planes still have weird behavioirs over angels 15)

carguy_
02-13-2006, 09:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nubarus:
The FW190 "Bar" whine </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Great,now compare the date of last posts in those whines.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">and since the latest patch the Bf109 got shafted whine. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hardly a whine.You want a whine,go here (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/7611059904).

StellarRat
02-13-2006, 10:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HarlockGN:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by StellarRat:
Seems to me a game about WWII should have the MOST common planes modeled first and the less common planes modeled later. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That it had when it was released, but sure not Oleg nor you, nor anyone else can decide what the COMMUNITY modelers decide to do with their OWN free time.
Just thank them for their work, and if you don't like those planes just don't fly them and don't include them in your servers.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">for We could probably simulate 90% of the combat with 10% of the planes. Also, most of planes were done by Oleg and company (I think.) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually most of the planes added after the release were made by free modelers.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The map config is fine if we could get a air start base at 20000 ft. (that's another thing that should be added.) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And where are you going to land? And how is this any realistic, since you talk about full realism servers? (this without taking into account that the engine of this sim is NOT toned for high altitude combat, and most planes still have weird behavioirs over angels 15) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think the one in cockpit Allied heavy bomber should have been included in the AEP release (this was done by Oleg.) I'm not really picky about which one. I don't understand how you can say that it originally had the most common planes without an in cockpit B-17 or something similar. Thousands of them were built and they were used in one of the key campaigns of the entire war.

As far as the air start at 20000 ft. goes, it would allow us to fly the part of the mission where the Luftwaffe could try to intercept as the bombers approached the target. The whole map could be blue territory accept for a base at one end to simulate the return to England or at least the completion of the bombing run.

I do appreciate everything we've gotten from Oleg and the modelers. I've gotten more enjoyment from this game than any other game I've ever owned. It's been on my drive for 3 years now in one form or another. I just think this is big hole in plane set that has gone unaddressed for a long time. It is really only thing that is missing that would make the game "perfect" for ME. Others are probably think it's perfect as is. I think we can respectfully disagree on this point. I'd even be willing to pay for an add-on that included only the in cockpit B-17 or B-24.

JG4_Helofly
02-13-2006, 10:46 AM
But the question is: what are you calling whining and what simple critisisme? Where is the difference?

When people whant a correct fw 190 view for exemple is it whining?

BuzzU
02-13-2006, 12:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG4_Helofly:
But the question is: what are you calling whining and what simple critisisme? Where is the difference?

When people whant a correct fw 190 view for exemple is it whining? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No more than wanting an accurate P-51. No less either.

Nubarus
02-13-2006, 01:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carguy_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nubarus:
The FW190 "Bar" whine </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Great,now compare the date of last posts in those whines.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">and since the latest patch the Bf109 got shafted whine. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hardly a whine.You want a whine,go here (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/7611059904). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

When I really want to look for whining I do a forum search for carguy_ or Stafroty.

JG4_Helofly
02-13-2006, 01:09 PM
The main Problem is still the fight red vs blue. We all should pull on the same rope ( a german expression, also english ? ) to get the max of realism. When one side begin to whine because he want a plane wich can shoot down easily the ennemy and so other side what also such a plane we will never get realism.
The result of whining is balancing in fm and that's what kills the sim.
If we all search together for infos about realistic datas we can improve the sim.

If the community is splitted in two totaly different groups of interessts the community is weak. We can gain in stengs if we all help the game to gain realism.

carguy_
02-13-2006, 01:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nubarus:
When I really want to look for whining I do a forum search for carguy_ or Stafroty. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif