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Muddy17
03-11-2010, 10:10 PM
Just foolen around today with FMB and realized the Val and Kate hit there targets way more accuretly than the SBD and TBF. Set up mission with no oposition with several different profiles amd the Japanies plane's on average hit with 2/4 planes while the Yankies would normaly score only near misses. {this was the average of what I saw}
This was done from 3000M/ 3500M and 2000M with average pilots for the Dive bombers and 300M ingress with the TB's

Now All I did was switch the planes and watched the results. Is there anything to this or do they behave differently?

Muddy17
03-11-2010, 10:10 PM
Just foolen around today with FMB and realized the Val and Kate hit there targets way more accuretly than the SBD and TBF. Set up mission with no oposition with several different profiles amd the Japanies plane's on average hit with 2/4 planes while the Yankies would normaly score only near misses. {this was the average of what I saw}
This was done from 3000M/ 3500M and 2000M with average pilots for the Dive bombers and 300M ingress with the TB's

Now All I did was switch the planes and watched the results. Is there anything to this or do they behave differently?

Romanator21
03-11-2010, 11:34 PM
The various bombs between each of the forces have wildly differing blast radii. The 250 kg bomb that the Val drops has a much bigger blast than the equivalent 500 lb (225 kg) US bomb.

Maybe this is causing the Japanese aircraft to appear more accurate? It is also worth mentioning that the SBD is more unstable in a dive than the Val, and the characteristic perforated flaps that that it has only partially solved the problem.

I don't know anything about the TBF vs Kates however.

ytareh
03-12-2010, 03:21 AM
Yes the japanese bombs have the biggest blast RADIUS .Someone here did great work setting up a mission with a long chain of trucks and showed that the 600kg (NOT 800kg) bomb on the Betty bomber had the biggest blast radius in the game .That does not mean however that it will blow up more tanks etc but if you have soft targets like trucks its damage will extend the furthest .

Aviar
03-12-2010, 04:41 AM
Without being able to test the actual missions, my two initial questions would be;

1.What exactly was the 'target'? This may be an important cosideration.

2.What did you consider as a 'hit' and as a 'nearmiss'?


As mentioned earlier, the ordnance difference may very well come into play and so the answers would be important in this regard.

Also, as a player, would you want the AI to represent real-world performance? I mean, what if these particular Japanese planes had a better dive-bombing record than these particular American planes? Would you expect the AI to reflect these facts? Just something to think about.

Aviar

DKoor
03-12-2010, 07:58 AM
"Do Japan's AI bomb better??"

No way.

But IJN has most awesome bombs, stronger than anyone else in game.

Muddy17
03-12-2010, 06:59 PM
Ok tried it again just to make sure im not on crack.
All AI with static camera.
12:00
2500M
4xVal+250kg bomb @ 250km speed and set to average skill
Staitionary dry goods ship set to ROF 0.5

12:02 second wp = ground attack, target is ship apx 2km ahead.

over target, roll over dive and bomb. score= 3 hits 1 miss within the width of the ship.
target sunk.

switch Val for SBD with 250kg bomb on the red side and ship red for blue and re-run.

score 4 total misses. Outside of a ship length even.

Swiched SDB for Stuka and they miss as well but only the width of the splash and all 4 bombs in the same spot.

Seems to me that the aircraft are like target shooting and the Stuka has the tightest group but of to the side
Val not as tight but the group is spread around the target but..

SDB.. well I can't get it to hit anything.

Try for your self and let me know.

FlatSpinMan
03-13-2010, 03:11 AM
Don't know about this, but it seems American bomber Ai can't ditch a plane. In my recent campaign you almost never saw a Lib or Fort gliding down like the He11's do. Instead they always explode after falling a few thousand metres or else plough into the ground at a 90 degree angle.
Only saw one or two planes actually force land.

I suppose the damage inflicted by later war weapons may have something to do with it.

DKoor
03-13-2010, 05:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Muddy17:
Ok tried it again just to make sure im not on crack.
All AI with static camera.
12:00
2500M
4xVal+250kg bomb @ 250km speed and set to average skill
Staitionary dry goods ship set to ROF 0.5

12:02 second wp = ground attack, target is ship apx 2km ahead.

over target, roll over dive and bomb. score= 3 hits 1 miss within the width of the ship.
target sunk.

switch Val for SBD with 250kg bomb on the red side and ship red for blue and re-run.

score 4 total misses. Outside of a ship length even.

Swiched SDB for Stuka and they miss as well but only the width of the splash and all 4 bombs in the same spot.

Seems to me that the aircraft are like target shooting and the Stuka has the tightest group but of to the side
Val not as tight but the group is spread around the target but..

SDB.. well I can't get it to hit anything.

Try for your self and let me know. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

SBD doesn't have 250kg bombs they are 250lbs, that is 113kg! Even 500lb is 227kg and IJN 250kg-er is still noticeably in advance regarding "weight".

On top of that, even if they are same 250kg-ers D3A would punch harder because Japanese bombs are made stronger than anyone elses bombs in the game, regardless of sides.

Japanese 600kg-er has 260m blast radius, while US 2000lber (907kg) has 100m blast radius.

For instance 2xSC2000kg has 250m blast radius.

Another thing.

Ai dive bombers absolutely need altitude or they will miss, so you can't go wrong with +3000m altitudes, they have more time for so needed stabilization. And make that dive bomb run waypoint long enough for them to "understand" what they need to dohttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, although high altitude will "cure" that problem for the most part.

You can try out the bomb strength by sitting on a carrier (with vulnerability and limited ammo off) and just try their strenght out by counting how many it takes for carrier to sink.

I will try few runs just to be sure, although I played few SBD campaigns and so far we have hit a lot and sink little since most of our priority targets were carriers and 8 SBD's or so just aren't enough to get thru...

EDIT
I've tried couple of runs. Results are fishy in a way that I've noticed D3A consistency to hit better than SBD. Altitudes from 1700m up to 3500m doesn't make a difference...

So I think that you may be right after all.
I don't have time enough to make few runs at "popular" alts but yeah to me SBD Ai seems to be a bit "dumber" than that of D3A.

Frankthetank36
03-14-2010, 11:09 PM
I spend most of my time flying naval bombers but I never knew that the Val's 250kg bomb was so much stronger than a 500lb US bomb. I had always viewed the Val as being limited as a dive bomber due to its puny bombload; sure it is the most accurate dive-bomber but the SBD carries a 1600lb bomb and the Ju-87D carries a whopping 1800kg bomb. Yet strangely, when I went into FMB to test out the strength of the Stuka's massive bomb, it couldn't destroy a CV or BB while the Corsair with a 2000lb bomb and two 1000 bombs was able to do so easily.

EDIT: are you bombing ships or ground targets with the Val? Because near misses don't seem to do anything against ships, so blast radius isn't much of a factor. You need to actually get a direct hit to get the orange fireball explosion instead of a big splash.

Frankthetank36
03-17-2010, 08:48 PM
Also the AI seems pretty dumb when it comes to dive bombing since they tend to bomb with the wings parallel to the ships instead of perpendicular. When torpedoing moving ships, they also sometimes apply no lead whatsoever.

Aviar
03-17-2010, 09:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Frankthetank36:
Also the AI seems pretty dumb when it comes to dive bombing since they tend to bomb with the wings parallel to the ships instead of perpendicular. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


There are two reasons this happens.

1.The plane is not a 'true' dive-bomber. In that case, the AI is not programmed to dive-bomb a target.

2.The mission was not created correctly. In that case, the AI will revert to a 'level' attack routine.

So, if the mission creator sets up the mission correctly, the 'true' dive-bombers will attack correctly.


Aviar

Aviar
03-17-2010, 10:43 PM
I tried to test this myself and at first I got similar results to Muddy17. However, I've been building IL-2 missions for 8 years and so I know there are more ways skin a cat when it comes to the FMB.

My initial test was with the D3A1 (1x250kg Bomb) and the SBD-3 (1x250lb Bomb), both at 3600 meters and Average skill setting. As I mentioned above, the D3A1 was doing better than the SBD-3.

So, I simply set a higher altitude (4000m) for the SBD-3. Once I did that, the SBD hit the ship every time.

When making attack waypoints, it's important to realize that many variables may come into play. (Speed, altitude, ordnance, pilot skill setting, the target itself, other nearby planes, other nearby targets, waypoint placement, etc.)

For instance, when I changed the ordnance for the SBD from the original 1x250lb bomb to 2x250lb bombs, they missed the target. This is a good example of one of the 'variables' I mentioned above.

It is hard to make a blanket statement (such as: Japan's AI bombs better than....") about the AI in this game as they may very well perform totally differently in different situations. Even if you try to set up a controlled test situation, one small change can alter the results dramatically (as I showed in my examples above.) Simply changing the altitude and/or the ordnance produced different results.

If you would like to try the simple test missions I created, I'll list the mis contents below.


The D3A1 at 3600m (1x250kg Bomb):

---------------------------------------------
[MAIN]
MAP Kuban/load.ini
TIME 12.0
CloudType 0
CloudHeight 1000.0
army 1
playerNum 0
[Wing]
IJA_F_S_30z00
[IJA_F_S_30z00]
Planes 1
OnlyAI 1
Skill 1
Class air.D3A1
Fuel 50
weapons 1x250
[IJA_F_S_30z00_Way]
NORMFLY 109480.86 86896.20 3600.00 300.00 &0
NORMFLY 113027.24 91024.31 3600.00 300.00 &0
GATTACK 114564.14 92632.44 3600.00 300.00 0_Static 0 &0
NORMFLY 119660.26 84816.92 3600.00 300.00 &0
[NStationary]
0_Static ships.Ship$Tramp 1 114568.36 92637.25 675.00 0.0 0 2 1.0
[Buildings]
[StaticCamera]
113961 92606 200
[Bridge]
[House]
---------------------------------------------


The SBD-3 at 4000m (1x250lb Bomb):

---------------------------------------------
[MAIN]
MAP Kuban/load.ini
TIME 12.0
CloudType 0
CloudHeight 1000.0
army 1
playerNum 0
[Wing]
USA_BG_307z00
[USA_BG_307z00]
Planes 1
OnlyAI 1
Skill 1
Class air.SBD3
Fuel 50
weapons 1x250
[USA_BG_307z00_Way]
NORMFLY 109480.86 86896.20 4000.00 300.00 &0
NORMFLY 113027.24 91024.31 4000.00 300.00 &0
GATTACK 114564.14 92632.44 4000.00 300.00 0_Static 0 &0
NORMFLY 119660.26 84816.92 4000.00 300.00 &0
[NStationary]
0_Static ships.Ship$Tramp 2 114568.36 92637.25 675.00 0.0 0 2 1.0
[Buildings]
[StaticCamera]
113961 92606 200
[Bridge]
[House]
----------------------------------------------


Aviar