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jayhall0315
06-24-2008, 02:07 PM
Hey guys,
Can someone give me a run down on the strength of the guns in the game on fighters from strongest to weakest? And I do not mean quoting me the caliber or number or referring to the actual guns on the plane in real life. I mean only how strong the cannons and guns are in the game especially subjective experience. There are some planes in the game that have the same guns as listed in the stats but I have heard that they do not feel the same. For example the FW 190 has 2x20 mm and 2x13 mm cannons where as the La-7 3xB-20 has 3x20 mm cannons, but the FW 190 seems FAR stronger in destructive power.

My theory, crappy as it may be, goes like this:

F4U-C and FW -190D tied as tops for fighters
Spit 25 lbs
F4U-D
I-185
Bf 109 G2
La-7 3xB-20
La-5FN and La-5

What do you veterans think?

Thanks,
Jay

jayhall0315
06-24-2008, 02:07 PM
Hey guys,
Can someone give me a run down on the strength of the guns in the game on fighters from strongest to weakest? And I do not mean quoting me the caliber or number or referring to the actual guns on the plane in real life. I mean only how strong the cannons and guns are in the game especially subjective experience. There are some planes in the game that have the same guns as listed in the stats but I have heard that they do not feel the same. For example the FW 190 has 2x20 mm and 2x13 mm cannons where as the La-7 3xB-20 has 3x20 mm cannons, but the FW 190 seems FAR stronger in destructive power.

My theory, crappy as it may be, goes like this:

F4U-C and FW -190D tied as tops for fighters
Spit 25 lbs
F4U-D
I-185
Bf 109 G2
La-7 3xB-20
La-5FN and La-5

What do you veterans think?

Thanks,
Jay

crucislancer
06-24-2008, 03:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jayhall0315:
Hey guys,
Can someone give me a run down on the strength of the guns in the game on fighters from strongest to weakest? And I do not mean quoting me the caliber or number or referring to the actual guns on the plane in real life. I mean only how strong the cannons and guns are in the game especially subjective experience. There are some planes in the game that have the same guns as listed in the stats but I have heard that they do not feel the same. For example the FW 190 has 2x20 mm and 2x13 mm cannons where as the La-7 3xB-20 has 3x20 mm cannons, but the FW 190 seems FAR stronger in destructive power.

My theory, crappy as it may be, goes like this:

F4U-C and FW -190D tied as tops for fighters
Spit 25 lbs
F4U-D
I-185
Bf 109 G2
La-7 3xB-20
La-5FN and La-5

What do you veterans think?

Thanks,
Jay </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm no veteran, but here's my take.

I would throw the Tempest up there at the top. Four Hispano 20mm cannons, which I think are the same as those in the F4U-1C.

P-47D should go between the Spit IX and F4U-D.

Yak-3 and 9? While the standard marks have two machine guns and a 20mm, for some reason they feel more powerful then the twin 20mms on the La-5FN. A matter of perception I guess.

na85
06-24-2008, 04:06 PM
If Tagert were here, I'm sure he'd say that feelings are largely irrelevant in this subject. Once you get the hang for a certain gun (which has unique characteristics like rate of fire and trajectory) you can excel with it.

TgD Thunderbolt56
06-24-2008, 04:52 PM
P-63 FTW!!!

ImpStarDuece
06-24-2008, 04:58 PM
OK, airborne gun armaments have developed into something of a hobby for me. So I may be able to help out a little.

Go and read these two articles first, both written by the esteemed Anthony Williams:

Airbone gun effectiveness comparison (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm)

Cannon or Machine gun? (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/CannonMGs.htm)

Then cruise on through Emmanuel Gustin website. Emmanuel and Tony collaborated on a book "Flying Guns of World War II", which I cannot recommend highly enough, if you can find it.

Emmanuel Gustin's website (http://users.telenet.be/Emmanuel.Gustin/fgun/fgun-in.html)

More specifically, you may want to look at his comparative gun tables (http://users.telenet.be/Emmanuel.Gustin/fgun/fgun-pe.html)

There are several other websites out there, that build on Tony's and Emmanuels work, adding their own slant and work on things, usually trying to better incorporate ballistics and/or explosive power of rounds. I can't find all of them, as my bookmarks have recently evaporated, but one of them is Lunatic's gun page (http://members.cox.net/rg_lunatic/gunpage/)

VW-IceFire
06-24-2008, 05:19 PM
I'd do what ImpStarDuece suggests. Everyone will have a slightly different feeling for each of the weapons but the Anthony Williams site is going to really top things off nicely. The game is roughly analogous to whats out there for power of the different cannons.

In the example of the FW190D-9 versus the La-7 3xB-20 the MG151/20 has more destructive power due to its Mine shells which are a type of very high explosive shells. So a couple of Mine hits and an enemy goes down while the La-7 will need a slightly longer time on target to allow for its less powerful high explosive and armor piercing shells to plow through the enemy.

Jay: I can't agree with your list for relative destructive power. Me-262 should trump all of the war time serving historical aircraft with four MK108 cannons. The FW190A series should top the D-9 because they have two extra MG151/20 or MG-FF cannons. The Tempest V isn't on your list at all but its one of the most potent with the four Hispano V cannons which have a high fire rate, high muzzle velocity, and a large destructive potential. Its not the most powerful overall but its very effective against moving targets like fighters, medium bombers, or strafing light ground targets. Bf109s with MK108 nose cannons or nose and wing MK108s Next come any aircraft armed with the four Hispano II cannons including the Hurricane IIc, Spitfire Vc, and F4U-1C. After that the La-7 3xB-20/Yak-3P/I-185 and down the list. Spitfire IXc/IXe/IXc +25lbs is somewhere in the middle as the two Hispanos are powerful but the light or heavy machine guns (C or E respectively) are only modestly potent compared to the four cannoned fighters. The FW190D-9 would be just slightly above with its pair of MG151/20s.

Some are oddballs in my mind such as the P-39, P-63, Yak-9T, Yak-9UT, and so forth which have the potency to take down a fighter in one shot or a bomber in one to three shots but making the large calibre guns connect is much more difficult than with a 20mm cannon.

Basically you have to look at the cannon or machine gun itself. Not all are equal...some have special attributes that you need to know about. Some are superior to others but make a plane allot heavier because of their installation...etc. The key things to keep in mind that the calibres may be the same but the size of the shell (length), weight, explosive power, armor penetration, fire rate, muzzle velocity, and a host of other factors will also combine together. I know I had to learn very quickly...coming from much simpler flight games that a 20mm cannon comes in quite a few different varieties...its not just the size of the cannon but many of its other attributes.

Also few believe it in the West but the Russians really did have some of the best airborne weaponry of any of the combatants. Well worth looking at what was available on their aircraft.

Ba5tard5word
06-24-2008, 05:54 PM
Hs-129 with a 75mm cannon...hehe...too bad you can't fly it in game.

ImpStarDuece
06-24-2008, 06:41 PM
In game, I'd personally rate the top basic fighter armaments (prop fighters only) like this:

1) F4U-1C

4 x Hispano II with 230 rpg, giving a phenomenal 23 seconds of cannon time. The Hispano II has exceptional ballistics for a cannon, including a very high muzzle velocity

2) Tempest V

4 x Hispano V with 150 rpg, about 12 seconds of cannon time. The Hispano V has a 150 rpm higher than the Hispano II, putting about 25% more lead in the air. The downside is a slight reduction in M/V and a correspondingly greater amount of bullet drop.

3) FW-190A6/8/9

2 x MG131, 4 x MG 151/20. I don't know the total trigger time for the FW 190, but the answer, with the exception of the outboard cannon, is LOTS. Has the plus and minus of having its inboard cannon and machine guns firing through the prop arc. This means they lose about 10% of their RoF due to prop synchronisation, but issues of harmonisation and convergence are not as prevalent as the wingmounted guns of the F4U and Tempest.

Bonue points for the FW 190 when considering additional armaments, as it can also mount 2 x 30 mm cannon or 4 x 20 mm cannon, replacing the outboard cannon.

4) 109K & late G models.

2 x 13 mm MG131 and 1 x 30 mm MG103. Ok sure, the 30mm is a little like a blunderbuss, with the ballistics of a shotgun slug, and its one hit/one kill capabilities are npt certain, but its still fearful when you see those grapefruits being lobbed in your direction. One 30 mm round on a fighter is usually enought to cripple/kill a fighter, although sometimes things get a little freakish. I've had an IAR-80 take 3 30mms and fly on serenly...

5) Spitfire VC/Hurricane IIC

4 x Hispano Mk II. Same armament as the F4U, but only 120/96 rpg respectively, limiting firing time to 12/10 seconds. This means you cant be quite as trigger happy.

6) La-7/Yak-3P

3 x B-20. The B-20s suffer from synchronisation problems and fire a lighter round than the Hispano at a lower M/V. However, three of them, clustered around the nose of each fighter, mean a concentrated, lethal burst of fire if they should connect.

7) Ki-84B

4 x Ho 5. This cannon is essentially a scaled up version of the Browning M2, but it suffers from a lowish rate of fire (450-550 rpm) a shorter, lighter cartridge than the Hispano and a relatively low MV (~750 m/sec). Still, with 150 rpg, this gives about 15-16 seconds of trigger time.

The Ki-84C with 2 x 20 mm and 2 x 30 mm is monsterous, but rarely seen online. Offline, its the PERFECT heavy bomber killer.

general_kalle
06-25-2008, 08:25 AM
aktually there it is again.

The FW190:
2 heavy machine guns
2 20mm cannons
2 30mm cannons

Ki84C:
2 20mm cannons
2 30mm cannons

yet the Ki84 have far greater firepower in the game.

TinyTim
06-25-2008, 09:33 AM
My list:

P-67 (6x37mm http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif) ... ah, yes, we don't have it in this sim...
Me262A
Bf110 (with 108s and 20mm gondola)
Ki-84-1c
Fw190A9 (with 108s)
Beaufighter
F4U-1C
Tempest
Fw190A8
Fw190A6
Bf109 (with nose 108 and two 20mm gondolas)
Yak9UT
Bf109 (with 20mm gondolas)
I-185
La-7_late
Yak-3P
P-47

JtD
06-25-2008, 09:52 AM
I find 2xMG151/20 to be enough. The 4xMG151/20 of an A series Fw therefore are overkill already. Two cannons and both machine guns are mounted close to the fuselage in this bird. This makes them more effective when compared to wing installations. Imho the A series Fw has the best firepower of single engined fighters in game, even without considering the 30mm option for the wing cannons.

The Hispano cannons are pretty good, too. Four of them are a very strong armament. Two, in particular if positioned as far outboard as on a Spitfires wing, are sufficient but not good anymore.

The weakest 20mm cannons in game are the Japanese Army plane cannons (Ho-5) and the Russian ShVAKs. You'll need 4 to get any meaningful effect with them.

X32Wright
06-25-2008, 10:09 AM
Well my list is based on my experience and bias so here it is. They are based on person experience with how effective they are in downing an opponent this isnt a post about historical functionality but rather 'game personal gunnery experience'

Fighters:

1) Bf-109 F4-the MG 151/20 is very deadly

2) FW-190/A9- again MG 151/20s

3) Any plane with shVAK cannons-La5/La7/I-185M-71

4) P-63

5) A6M3 and A6M5-yes I know but works for me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

6) Yak-3

7) Ta-152H and Ta-152C

Fighter/Bomber:

1) Bf-110-can't beat MG-151 plus Mk-108s

2) Me-262

3) Mosquito

4) Beaufighter

5) A-20

There you go. This list isn't based on armament data just my experience online in the game http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

PS: I actually hate the Mk-108 because its heavy and only good for 'viermots'.

crucislancer
06-25-2008, 10:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by X32Wright:
4) Beaufighter
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How could I forget this one? I love the punch this plane has. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Jaws2002
06-25-2008, 12:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by X32Wright:
PS: I actually hate the Mk-108 because its heavy and only good for 'viermots'. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who told you the Mk108 is heavy? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

The Mk108 weights just 60kg. That's only ten kilos more then a HispanoII for example, eight kilos lighter then the Russian 23mm cannon, 36 killos lighter then the 37mm American M4 cannon in the P-39 and 110 kilos lighter then the Russian 37mm Ns 37 cannon.
I think the Mk-108 is one of the most efficient guns used in ww2. The only trade off was the muzle velocity. It exceled in everything else. It had a rate of fire comparable with the much smaller 20mm cannons, The shell caried huge amounts of very effective HE, and the gun was extremely light and compact for the destructive power it had.

X32Wright
06-25-2008, 12:14 PM
I think u misunderstood me Jaws. Whenever I have a 109 load out with 'Mk-108 on the nose', the plane feels nose heavy and I am very senstive to changes in the 109 airframe since it is so noticeable. This is why I don't like to load the Mk-108 unless I am fightign 'viermots'. Sadly though we cannot load the MG 151/20 on the late 109s without using gunpods.

As for the M4, on the P-39s I dont feel that planes to be 'nose heavy' as well as the P-63. This goes for the otehrs too although the other guns that you mention were only mounted on the wings i cannot compare them to the way an Mk-108 on the nose in a 109 feels.

Jaws2002
06-25-2008, 12:29 PM
Ah you were refering to the 109 and I was thinking about the 190 A8/9. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

In the 190 the complete Mk108 package (gun, ammo and instalation) is a bit lighter then the MG-151/50 package.
I'm not that familliar with the 109's anymore. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif