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sataridis
09-06-2009, 07:12 PM
One thing people usually don't notice is that at the time of the Templars anialition by order of the Pope, the Knights Templar came to Portugal and there they became the "Ordem da Cruz de Cristo" or something like that...

AND the very creation of Portugal is linked to the Templars, who played an important role in helping portuguese king Afonso Henriques conquering Lisbon (nowadays capital) and gaining recugnition from the Holy Church as a true kingdom in the eyes of christinanity...

AND at the time of Portugal's greatest moment, the Descoveries ("Descobrimentos"), portuguese ships discovered African and Southern America and Asian coast with the "new Templar red cross" in their sails...


Portugal is increadebly linked to the Knights Templar, so that even one of the nine or seven initial knights was portuguese, who got to give his name to a region in Portugal, Gondomar...


I remind you all that Portugal was Venice's most fearsome enemy, for the italian's cities economy depended on trading, which became more and more competetive with new routes by sea discovered by the Portuguese...
The climate of spionage and tension was extremely dangerous, since a small kingdom was fighting the Spanish Empire, the Turks, the Italians...
And still Portugal forged a worldwide empire long before other more powerful nations...

sataridis
09-06-2009, 07:12 PM
One thing people usually don't notice is that at the time of the Templars anialition by order of the Pope, the Knights Templar came to Portugal and there they became the "Ordem da Cruz de Cristo" or something like that...

AND the very creation of Portugal is linked to the Templars, who played an important role in helping portuguese king Afonso Henriques conquering Lisbon (nowadays capital) and gaining recugnition from the Holy Church as a true kingdom in the eyes of christinanity...

AND at the time of Portugal's greatest moment, the Descoveries ("Descobrimentos"), portuguese ships discovered African and Southern America and Asian coast with the "new Templar red cross" in their sails...


Portugal is increadebly linked to the Knights Templar, so that even one of the nine or seven initial knights was portuguese, who got to give his name to a region in Portugal, Gondomar...


I remind you all that Portugal was Venice's most fearsome enemy, for the italian's cities economy depended on trading, which became more and more competetive with new routes by sea discovered by the Portuguese...
The climate of spionage and tension was extremely dangerous, since a small kingdom was fighting the Spanish Empire, the Turks, the Italians...
And still Portugal forged a worldwide empire long before other more powerful nations...

Braxto
09-06-2009, 07:13 PM
and that helps us how?

sataridis
09-06-2009, 07:17 PM
It could be developed as an interesting storyline, I'm terribly sorry if I hurt your feelings...

Braxto
09-06-2009, 07:23 PM
I also think you just like Portugal way to much, and should favour one country so much.
Haha no problem http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I was just curious as to how that helps us, it was very interesting and i was just joking with you ;D

Edengoth
09-06-2009, 07:30 PM
Honestly, one of the best pitches for an AC3 setting I've heard in while.
(Though personally, I want AC3 to span the world.)

sataridis
09-06-2009, 07:33 PM
The thing is that usually I got treated like some piece of poop in web forums just because I suggest something different from the usual...

I mean, it's not every day you hear of Portugal in "big mainstream culture", and there are some great things there...

What I mean is that Portugal is nothing but a small courner by the sea compared to other "big" nations, but still it forged a worldwide empire, and portuguese became the 6th most spoken language in the world and they were able to fight and resist alone against Spain when it was the greatest Empire in Europe, for example...

And THERE is some piece of history worth being told

MartaVasques
09-06-2009, 07:37 PM
Hey, Sataridis!
Are you Portuguese?
Take a look at this:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/foru...491041687#5491041687 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5251069024/m/3631083087?r=5491041687#5491041687)

thekyle0
09-06-2009, 07:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MartaVasques:
Hey, Sataridis!
Are you Portuguese?
Take a look at this:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/foru...491041687#5491041687 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5251069024/m/3631083087?r=5491041687#5491041687) </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I could see you sprinting toward this thread from a mile away.

sataridis
09-06-2009, 07:43 PM
Pois, eu estive lá ainda este Verão! E passei por Aljustrel, o castelo com o tesouro templário...

(É TÃO BOM ENCONTRAR TUGAS COMO EU...)

MartaVasques
09-06-2009, 07:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by thekyle0:
I could see you sprinting toward this thread from a mile away. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, well... You don't find Portuguese people in these forums too often! I'm here to welcome my countryman/ woman! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

@ Sataridis: Cool! Welcome!

*By the way, Sataridis was just saying to me he went to Regaleira Palace this summer and visited a couple of Templar historic sites as well. And that he's pleased to find another Portuguese here! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif*

sataridis
09-06-2009, 07:52 PM
Thank you for a more worldwide translation. I should have known better, since I got myself trapped by people using languages I couldn't understand...

Thank you also for welcoming me in the online commmunity, and I hope we catch up again!

EmperorxZurg
09-06-2009, 07:56 PM
ahem, I'm sorry sat but u are VERY mistaken, the Templars first of all were in france when the pope was forced by the king of France to lock them up so he could steal their vast amounts of religious artifacts, this is how the holy grail went missing because the Templars hid all their treasure, and when the order was gone they escaped into their fellow brotherhoods like the Hospitaliers from France and others, they didn't move into Spain or Portugal until almost 300 years later

sataridis
09-06-2009, 08:01 PM
First of all, I believe they were extremely involved in the very foundation of Portugal, which was just a part of Castella given to Henry of Borgonha (don't know english equivalent for that name) father of Afonso Henriques, which became king in part thanks to Templars help...

Then, about the coming of Templars to Portugal, I know they moved at least when was king Denis I, or Dinis, in Portuguese...

I will check this out, since I might be wrong, but this is idea I got... I will confirm my "suspitions", but tomorrow since here it's 3 a. m...

EmperorxZurg
09-06-2009, 08:03 PM
well, just remember I have Profeseers who have studied their life to it, and have even found records of where templar members whent after the annhilation, don't mess with someone who's been a templar nut for 7 years lol, but hey other people used to think that Templars were started in Germany here before too lol

SBRedFlag
09-06-2009, 08:20 PM
Disturbed, you have 999 posts! That's AWESOME!

Anyway, does anyone find it a bit odd that two people both made topics about the Templars in Portugal within minutes of each other?
Here's the other one:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/foru...1069024/m/8461068044 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5251069024/m/8461068044)

EmperorxZurg
09-06-2009, 08:31 PM
that was from 2007 when it was started sbred, the guy who started this posted ther first with a necropost.

PS ya my 1000th post! I fell all fuzzy inside lol http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif {the metal is worth more so I could only buy one, dang business menhttp://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif}

SBRedFlag
09-06-2009, 08:36 PM
sataridis dug up a 3 year old post? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

And what are you talking about? What metal?

EmperorxZurg
09-06-2009, 08:43 PM
the metal smilie, was just kidding lol, but ya he did

j_lx13
09-07-2009, 08:58 AM
I'm portuguese too.

phimo123-FR
09-07-2009, 10:19 AM
That would be cool to explore the architecture of that country in AC3! That's all I have to say. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

thekyle0
09-07-2009, 11:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by d1sturbedme_468:
that was from 2007 when it was started sbred, the guy who started this posted ther first with a necropost.

PS ya my 1000th post! I fell all fuzzy inside lol http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif {the metal is worth more so I could only buy one, dang business menhttp://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif} </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Nobody cared when I had 1,000 posts. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Well if none of you like me that's fine because I start school tomorrow. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

EmperorxZurg
09-07-2009, 11:55 AM
lucky, I've been in school for a whole week

thekyle0
09-07-2009, 12:00 PM
You'll probably be out fo school two weeks before me though. In Michigan we get snowdays often and they have to extend the year to make up lost time.

MartaVasques
09-07-2009, 01:24 PM
It seems we all need a bit of Portuguese History 101 (and this goes for you Portuguese people as well):
Henry of Burgundy, a French Count (not a Templar), received a piece of land called Portucalle from King Alfonso VI of Castile and León, for helping him kick out the Moors of the northern part of the Peninsula. The son of Henry, Afonso Henriques, decided that he would not take any more crap from Spain after his father died and declared Portucalle an independent territory. In 1139, he declared himself King of Portugal and, because his Spanish mother wasn’t pleased with the idea, he banned her of his new born illegal kingdom. The Pope wasn’t too happy about it either and Portugal wasn’t declared a true kingdom in the eyes of the Catholic Church until later, in 1179, but we’ll come to that in a second.
Well, Afonso The Conqueror couldn’t care less about the Pope’s opinion, but being excommunicated and condemned to eternal damnation wouldn’t look good on a king’s résumé. Besides, it was a big deal at the time, especially when taxes and war allies were at stake. So, without any personal interest what so ever http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif, he told the Pope he would rid the Peninsula free of Moors if the Pope declared Portugal an independent kingdom. Of course Rome replied “put your money were your moth is” and bam! The war began.
Naturally he didn’t kick all the Moors out. In fact, very few of them actually left (bet you didn’t know this, Pope, now did you? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif). After all the sieges and battling, many Muslims stayed and peacefully lived together with Christians. In fact, if it weren’t for Moorish knowledge and technology, Portugal would have never built an empire as it did centuries later. But because of Afonso’s services to Christendom, the Kingdom of Portugal was finally legally created. So, no Templars here. Not yet. Just a badass king.

*takes a sip of water*

Actually, that’s not true. There are records of Templars in Portuguese territory at the time, but they took little part in the foundation of the kingdom when it was just a piece of land given to a French count. Yet they did help Afonso Henriques during the siege of Santarem and, because of that, Afonso Henriques granted them ecclesiastical authority over the lands liberated from the Moors. So, they were here, but as you figured out by now, Afonso was not your typical catholic medieval king and didn’t want too much to do with religious military orders – only when he needed them to fight for him.

When King Philip of France ordered the arrest of all Templars on the first black Friday and the Pope ordered their extermination, Portuguese King Dinis followed his ancestor’s policy of not giving a rat’s *** about what Rome wanted and declared the Templars as innocents on Iberian territory. This really annoyed the Pope and he compelled King Dinis to turn them over to the Church. King Dinis had to tell the Templars “look here, you can stay, but you must not call yourselves Templars anymore. The Pope is out to get you. Let’s think of something catchy. How does Order of Christ sounds to you?”

And that’s why we have such big Templar History in Portugal. They decided this was a safe hideout and stayed.

And what’s all this got to do with AC?
Nothing. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Well, it does, in a sense that Portugal would make a massive set for an AC game. But so would all of Europe!

Edengoth said he wanted AC to span the world and he’s right.
And it is our job, my assassin brothers, to spread the creed and stop the Templars’…
Got a bit carried away here... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Sorry for the long post, but I need to clear a few things.

Edengoth
09-07-2009, 02:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MartaVasques:
*takes a sip of water* </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now, THAT was classy.
Nice post though, very informative.

EmperorxZurg
09-07-2009, 02:26 PM
so many things wronghttp://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif, first off the Templars when they did go there were not from Burgundy county, they were from the front at Jerusalem and were assigned a small company to help in exchange for support from Alfonso. I'm just gonna skip the rest of the first paragraph because I forgot to read it, but second, It was not King Phillip who ordered their execution, it was King Henry IV who wanted their religious artifacts, so he could claim to be the most holy and above the Pope, now he couldn't contro;l the Pope or Templars because they were noticed as a soveriegn state so King Henry fornicated a bunch of laws and heracy to take them out and threatened the Pope to allow it, the Pope was against it but had no choice sohe wouldn't die, then the Leader of the Templar confessed to these crimes and took most of the punishm,ent for his fellow Templars, then the Templars went into hiding among their brother societies such as Tuetonics and Hospitaliers. then once they established a postition with their new safeguards the company in Portugal, since being banned and no brother society near them decided to leave as much influental writings and actions as they could because 2 years before, when Henry had made these plans, a praying monk overheard and traveled to Portugese to warn an old friend of his in that company, what we don't know is why that soldier didn't report to headquarters

MartaVasques
09-07-2009, 02:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by d1sturbedme_468:
so many things wronghttp://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif, first off the Templars when they did go there were not from Burgundy county </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, they didn’t, but I never said that.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It was not King Phillip who ordered their execution, it was King Henry IV who wanted their religious artifacts </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Secondly, I’m pretty sure it was French King Phillip IV and Pope Clement V, under the influence of the king, who ordered the extermination of the Templar order in 1307.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> when Henry had made these plans, a praying monk overheard and traveled to Portugese to warn an old friend of his in that company, what we don't know is why that soldier didn't report to headquarters </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

King Dinis did not buy the accusations of heresy and treason the Templars were facing. In 1308 Pope Clement V ordered the Portuguese king to denounce the Templars in Portugal by issuing the bull Regnas in Coelis. But Dinis refused and, in 1310, in Salamanca, the Templars were declared innocent on Iberian territory.
In 1312, Clement issued the bull Vox in excelso, suppressing the order, and declaring that the Hospitallers should inherit its goods. Dinis argued that the knights had simply been granted perpetual use of lands which actually belonged to the crown (inquisitions of 1314), and founded a new order, the Order of Christ, which was granted the holdings of the Portuguese Templars.

thekyle0
09-07-2009, 02:54 PM
Somehow I get the feeling Disturbedme would know less about the history of a region than somebody who actually lives there.

sataridis
09-07-2009, 03:04 PM
Ok, now I'm a bit more prepared...


so...

First, let's check the two main caracters of this "Templar-Portugal" Theory (as we may call it..):
First, we have Henry of Burgundy, who went to fight in the Reconquista, one of the two fronts in the crusades, who were fought both in the holy land and in iberia

This man gets de Second Country of Portugal or whatever it is called in English (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condado_Portucalense)

Then, his wife conspires to get Galiza, nortrh of Portugal, so that when it was under her power, she would turn Portugal into an independent kingdom. This was a conspiracy which is proved to have existed...

But, her son, Afonso Henriques, son of Henry, fought his mother's claims even as a young boy and with the help of his vassals he proclaimed himself king of Portugal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afonso_I_of_Portugal
At this time, the Reconquista and the Crusades in the Holy Land were already fought for sometime, and in the Holy Land, a christian monastic army was created, now long before, by a group of nobleman under the command of Hugo de http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugues_de_Payens

This christian army, by the time of the second crusade, helps Afonso to conquer Lisbon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Lisbon
This assistance is said to extend to the Pope's recognition of Afonso as his direct vassal...

Now, the Theory suggests that Portugal may have been "created" as an independent kingdom for the order. Why?
The Holy Land was never fully held by the christians, and the idea of an army (the templars) wandering europe with no king to awnser to was terrifyng, specially to Philip, the beautifull, of France (I believe that is his name...)

His father Louis previously engaged in a series of loans from the Templars to prepare an army for the third of fourth crusade, I'm not sure. Louis led France almost to ruin preparing his then lost army, and Philip could not pay the Templars...
The thing is the Templars had the purpuse to protect the Holy Land, and when it was lost to the muslims, there was no further purpuse to them, and they came back to France.

The possibility that they could charge their debts from the kingdom revealed devasting to Philip, and so he worked his way to the vatican, electing a pope he could master, and then he provocked the Templars anialation...
Then, many Templars found refugee in Portugal, under the reign of king Denis, becaming the Order of Christ...

The idea that the Templars helped to build Portugal and then found there support MAY sound like this was already planned... MAYBE Portugal would have been created as a future Templar state...

THIS IS A THEORY BETTER DEFFENDED BY MANY HISTORIANS, NOT ONLY PORTUGUESE, AND I CAN POINT NAMES AND BOOKS AND UNIVERSITIES EXPLORING THIS.

IT IS JUST A THEORY, LIKE MANY OTHERS, AND THE WHOLE POINT I HAD IN BRINGING THIS UP WAS TO SHARE WHAT WOULD MAKE AN INTERESTING STORYLINE

MartaVasques
09-07-2009, 03:08 PM
Hey, Satiridis, don’t use caps, it’s considered shouting! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I’ve never heard of that theory. Perhaps you could name a few sources so we could check them out. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

sataridis
09-07-2009, 03:22 PM
I didn't mean for the caps to sound rude, just to "reinforce" that it was what I really meant to say at the first place...

And I'll now start my search in my books...

*getting lost in piles of books...*

*still lost...*

The books I have are transalted or in the original portuguese version, so I'll use the portuguese titles...

MARSILIO CASSOTTI - D. Teresa, A PRIMEIRA RAINHA DE PORTUGAL

PEDRO SILVA - História Mística de Portugal

The "aclamado" professor Hermano Saraiva mention it as an interesting possibility, "but nevertheless just a possibility"

MÁRIO DOMINGUES - D. Afonso Henriques

And some other books, including some fiction, that mention FACTS which might point in the direction of the "Theory"...

A Sombra do Templário, by Núria Masot, if I'm not mistaken, even reffers that one of the founding knights of the Order was portuguese...

I may continue my searches, but it would now take some time...

EDIT

I even had a book, which I lost but intend to recouver, was intitled "O SEGREDO DE D. AFONSO HENRIQUES", suggesting many interesting possibilities in proven documents, such as Henry of Burgundy being gay, the actual man that fought for Portugal and was called the first king of Portugal was not even Afonso Henriques, but a half-brother by his mother's side, whose father was Egas Moniz, the king's tutor...

SECOND EDIT

I remind that this last book I mentioned is a university professor's work for de "mestrado" degree... (MY ENGLISH IS SO AWFULLY LIMITED!)

MartaVasques
09-07-2009, 03:39 PM
It is an interesting theory. The Templars one, not the one of Henry being gay. Which is fine, but I kind of doubt it.
And you forgot the theory that states Afonso Henriques was swapped at birth by a baby belonging to one of the queen’s maids, because the real prince was weak and the maid’s child was beautiful and strong. When you have such a legendary king like Afonso Henriques, all kinds of theories come up. And some of them are pretty crazy! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
But thanks for the sources! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

sataridis
09-07-2009, 04:16 PM
You are welcome http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
I can also recomend you some books, romances, on Afonso, if you'd like...

I wish also to thank you for helping me defend back there some histoical points I didn't clearly explained or simply didn't even spoke of...

I specially recomend the last book I mentioned, because it not only focuses on Afonso, but also in most caracters around him, like Egas Moniz, his Mother Teresa and his father...

caswallawn_2k7
09-07-2009, 04:27 PM
see what I don't get in the crusades the French and English used the red cross on white so how were the templars anything special? they were only wearing standard crusades uniform.

MartaVasques
09-07-2009, 04:38 PM
@ Sataridis: I must go to FNAC this weekend to find that book! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

@Cas: I believe the red cross on white robes was originally a Templar symbol that got adopted by everyone else because they were so popular as defenders of Christendom. It also became a very distinctive mark. But I’m not sure of any of this, must check my sources first. Disturbed, you think could give us a hand here on this one? You obviously know your medieval History and may know this. Is that ok with you? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

caswallawn_2k7
09-07-2009, 04:43 PM
nope the red cross on white is the mark of St George and has been used by many countries and cities and is still used as a flag for England.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> from wikipedia
During the first crusade, leaders initially decided English soldiers were to wear a white cross on red, French soldiers a red cross on white, and Italian soldiers a yellow cross on blue. However, most English soldiers instead chose to wear the cross of St George, which the French were already wearing, making this the standard cross for crusaders. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

MartaVasques
09-07-2009, 04:51 PM
Nice. Didn't know that! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Do you think Disturbed got mad at me? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif

caswallawn_2k7
09-07-2009, 04:56 PM
he's probably just gone somewhere

EmperorxZurg
09-07-2009, 05:38 PM
wow, was I gone long, I'm going to have to make a few edits to this, Cas the Red on white is what defined the Templars as to be humble and pious since that's what they started out as first, the black cross and such were for different orders.
@marta, yes it was Henry, and the Pope hated the idea and only did it under penalty of death
EDIT: ok there we go, ur using Henry's nickname, he like to be called Phillip on a weird perogative, I though u were talking about Phillip the 3rd who reigned much before lol. but can we get different sources than Wikipedia, ur not going to convince me in any way from a site like that.
@satardis, I believe it was Henry's daughter, because there was a report in that area of a royal daughter being arrested for Heiracy, but was able to fend off the Templars with the wit of tongue. And the order was not made by Hugo, but by Hugo's pupil, {once I get the book I'll say the name} and the reconquista, both the book and the war were made 50+ years after the Holy Crusade began for Damascus and Jerusalem. his name was not the beautiful, that was hids Father's Louis' title. Louis didn't send an army, he went in himself as the first King to enter a life of monkhood and to fdefend the cross. the Templars never answered to a king, never have and never will, they were under direct command from the Pope himself. they never lost the Holy Land, they Lost Damascus and then decided to save their people for another time {the 2nd crusade} so retreated from Jerusalem. and The King does not elect a Pope, it is the Archbishops and you must be of senior status, which in there day was like 40. and He provoked the templars anhhilation for their artifacts, that's why he went into such denial after not being able to find it, the reason the Templars had these artifacts was because during the Crusades, they brought back almost anything Holy they were guarding in the Holy City itself before retreating.the Templars still played little role with Portugese, focusing more on Dominating France and Britain when the order started to become more military then religious and therfore corrupted. This theory to is supported by Cambridge and other leading Universities

MartaVasques
09-07-2009, 05:45 PM
Oh, good, you’re back! I was starting to think you’re mad at me! I truly believe that knowledge comes from debating ideas, so here I go again! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Found this:
“The Templars' existence was tied closely to the Crusades; when the Holy Land was lost, support for the Order faded. Rumors about the Templars' secret initiation ceremony created mistrust, and King Philip IV of France, deeply in debt to the Order, took advantage of the situation. In 1307, many of the Order's members in France were arrested, tortured into giving false confessions, and then burned at the stake. Under pressure from King Philip, Pope Clement V disbanded the Order in 1312. The abrupt disappearance of a major part of the European infrastructure gave rise to speculation and legends, which have kept the "Templar" name alive into the modern day.”
At http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar

I truly believed it was Phillip who started the Templar hunting...

SLB_2009
09-07-2009, 06:14 PM
@Marta: Continue this debate and we might have the first game settled in Portugal. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


@sataridis: Thanks for the names of the books. I'll try to get some, but it will be hard for me to read them (school starts next week http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif)

If I get some new information I'll try to post it here, but you're way ahead of me...

Tugas Power FTW

MartaVasques
09-07-2009, 06:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SLB_2009:
@Marta: Continue this debate and we might have the first game settled in Portugal. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
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I’m sure all of us on this thread would be more than happy to help Ubi on that research! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

EmperorxZurg
09-07-2009, 06:29 PM
I edited the post

SLB_2009
09-07-2009, 06:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MartaVasques:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SLB_2009:
@Marta: Continue this debate and we might have the first game settled in Portugal. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I’m sure all of us on this thread would be more than happy to help Ubi on that research! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


And maybe one day we'll be able to see Pat in the streets of Lisbon http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

It would be nice to hear someone of the AC team talking about how good Portugal is for an AC game...

MartaVasques
09-07-2009, 06:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by d1sturbedme_468:
@marta, yes it was Henry, and the Pope hated the idea and only did it under penalty of death
EDIT: ok there we go, ur using Henry's nickname, he like to be called Phillip on a weird perogative, I though u were talking about Phillip the 3rd who reigned much before lol. but can we get different sources than Wikipedia, ur not going to convince me in any way from a site like that.
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I didn’t know Phillip was his nickname! We’ve been talking about the same guy all this time! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

I don’t trust Wiki either, but it was the quickest link I found and as I was sure it was Phillip… http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

EmperorxZurg
09-07-2009, 08:44 PM
just remember Phillip {or Henry, whichever u want to call that devious Bas****} did it for religious artifacts, not debt, he didn't owe em crap, but he DID bring his economy down worse than USA's right now from different methods and was planning to use the extra non-religious gold to help pay it off as an added bonus, but was not the primary objective.

And @Cas, sorry I forgot to explain the colors, the white on their uniform stood for holiness and purity of spirit, whereas the red described the military aspect later to become a part of them and they would defend the cross with their lives

MartaVasques
09-08-2009, 03:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by d1sturbedme_468:
just remember Phillip {or Henry, whichever u want to call that devious Bas****} did it for religious artifacts, not debt, he didn't owe em crap, but he DID bring his economy down worse than USA's right now from different methods and was planning to use the extra non-religious gold to help pay it off as an added bonus, but was not the primary objective.
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I don’t think the debt theory is that farfetched. Remember how Jews used to fund kings in their endeavors during the Dark Ages? Templars had unbelievable wealth. It’s only natural even kings turned to them for some extra money…

EmperorxZurg
09-08-2009, 08:08 AM
yes but Phillip wasn't in Debt to them, instead of money they sent their own people and the royal families themselves to avoid that kind of thing and become heroes

sataridis
09-08-2009, 10:48 AM
The one in debt to the templars was louis, philip's father.

Louis built himself a great army which was lost in his crusade alongside with Frederick and Richard (germany and england). This was supposed to represent the dedication of christianity to the good cause, since now not only were they sending their nobleman, but their kings also.

For his crusade, Louis wished the best equipment money could buy, the best mercenaries that could be hired, and the whole efforts of France in fervorous devotion to the Cause...

Then, Philip inheritated his fathers debts to the Templars, among some minor other debts...

Accusing the Templars of heresy would anialate them and give Philip access to their "loot" to refill the crown's chests...

EmperorxZurg
09-08-2009, 05:03 PM
he never bought mercenaries, he brought his own private guard t with him, besides minor debts of other things, he paid the Templars in full with his and his men's lives, nothing was owed like that to them

MartaVasques
09-08-2009, 05:45 PM
King Phillip extorted money from everyone he could during his time in power. He did it to the Jews, to bankers, even dared to demand taxes from the Church. And he was up to his neck in debts to the Templars. If you don’t take my word for it, take this guy’s: Malcolm Barber, in The Trial of the Templars, published by Cambridge University Press.

EmperorxZurg
09-08-2009, 06:49 PM
that's the same professor I learned most form, however he said, King Phillip TRIED to tax and take money from the church and Jews. However, the Pope at the time said to him, "we must honor these Jews, they are the only vassal holding the word of God before the Messiah." and defluenced Phillip away from that, now I'm not saying he wasn't a cheat, he was, I'm just saying he wasn't in debt to TEMPLARS for MONEY, he repaid them in blood