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Rammjaeger
02-15-2007, 07:05 AM
1. One of our history teachers claims that the effective range of the MG/FF cannons of the Bf-109E was over 1.5 km (meaning that German pilots routinely downed early-war British bombers from such a distance, beyond the range of the bomber gunners). I find that unlikely.

He also claims that

2. There was a DAY in the late-war period when a higher tonnage of bombs was dropped on German targets by the USAAF and the RAF than all the tonnage dropped on Great Britain by the Luftwaffe during the Battle of Britain.

3. There was also a DAY during the same period when the Luftwaffe fighter arm lost more pilots over Germany (while attacking the Allied bomber formations and escort fighters) than it lost over Great Britain during the Battle of Britain.

(he said fighter pilots, not fighter planes. The two are obviously not the same)

Rammjaeger
02-15-2007, 07:05 AM
1. One of our history teachers claims that the effective range of the MG/FF cannons of the Bf-109E was over 1.5 km (meaning that German pilots routinely downed early-war British bombers from such a distance, beyond the range of the bomber gunners). I find that unlikely.

He also claims that

2. There was a DAY in the late-war period when a higher tonnage of bombs was dropped on German targets by the USAAF and the RAF than all the tonnage dropped on Great Britain by the Luftwaffe during the Battle of Britain.

3. There was also a DAY during the same period when the Luftwaffe fighter arm lost more pilots over Germany (while attacking the Allied bomber formations and escort fighters) than it lost over Great Britain during the Battle of Britain.

(he said fighter pilots, not fighter planes. The two are obviously not the same)

Chris0382
02-15-2007, 07:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Bf-109E </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


First off you may need to specify E-0 thru E-9 as they seemed to change the guns around on the different versions of the 109-E but there was a general configuration. They did go to extruded shells instead of casted shells I believes making the shells lighter and possibly more explosive. I may be wrong on this.

The B-17's were heavily armed and a strategy was to keep a distance at times.

Massive raids were sent over Germany and wouldnt doubt the bombing on 1 day = the bombing of London comment. They leveled Germany.

At the end they had pilots with 10 hr experience flying combat missions and wouldnt doubt a lot of kills were agains inexperienced German pilots.

WOLFMondo
02-15-2007, 07:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rammjaeger:


2. There was a DAY in the late-war period when a higher tonnage of bombs was dropped on German targets by the USAAF and the RAF than all the tonnage dropped on Great Britain by the Luftwaffe during the Battle of Britain.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its probably possible. Several cities were bombed two or three times over a 24 hour period, first by up to 1000 RAF bombers and then a similar amount of USAAF bombers.

JG53Frankyboy
02-15-2007, 08:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rammjaeger:
1. One of our history teachers claims that the effective range of the MG/FF cannons of the Bf-109E was over 1.5 km (meaning that German pilots routinely downed early-war British bombers from such a distance, beyond the range of the bomber gunners). I find that unlikely.

................ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

did he ever fired a gun ??
at 1500m ................. hey, hitting a moving target from a moving fireplatform without any computer supported aiming advice - sure ................ http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
can he imagine how small even a Wellington would be in his sight............. at a dsitance from almost a mile.

and even when the MG-FF shell would keep its muzzle velocitiy the whole way, wich it sure does not, ask Sir Isaac http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif , it would need almost 2,5 seconds till it would hit its target
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-pe.html

seriously, forgett it.

WOLFMondo
02-15-2007, 08:33 AM
Look at it the other way. British gunners sometimes refer to the .303 as the 300 yard gun. Cause it was only effective to 300 yards. Could the MG-FF impact at 300+ yards be effective.

StG2_Schlachter
02-15-2007, 08:58 AM
Come on Chris,
the USAAF bombarded big cities and industrial targets, but it sure did not level Germany.

Point 1 and 3 sound a bit unlikely to me, but who knows.

Blutarski2004
02-15-2007, 09:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rammjaeger:
1. One of our history teachers claims that the effective range of the MG/FF cannons of the Bf-109E was over 1.5 km (meaning that German pilots routinely downed early-war British bombers from such a distance, beyond the range of the bomber gunners). I find that unlikely.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... Maybe from a bench rest at a ground test site on a windless day.

Chris0382
02-15-2007, 09:11 AM
the USAAF bombarded big cities and industrial targets, but it sure did not level Germany.

Thats what I meant. Its a figure of speach but holy cow did they drop a lot of bombs towards the end of the war with the Briish wanting not only to hurt German industry ut revenge for the bombing of London (bombing of Dresden if splld correcly). I agree Germany as a whole wasnt leveled but was it ever bombed beyond my imagination.

Im sure you may haveread this:

THE UNITED STATES STRATEGIC BOMBING SURVEY

http://www.anesi.com/ussbs02.htm

StG2_Schlachter
02-15-2007, 09:18 AM
Well,
they still dig out duds from time to time. I live in Hamburg and it's quite often the case when they build new houses or work on the sewers.

Capt.LoneRanger
02-15-2007, 09:21 AM
Interesting.

1. 1.5km sounds like nonsense.
The MG/FF AFAIK had a maximum effective range of 800-900m.
The only thing that actually surpasses this range is the 3.7cm-Gun on a BF110. I read some sources claiming it was effective as an aircraft mounted gun against bombers for over about 2km.

2. AFAIK the tonnage of bombs dropped by Germans during WW2 is about 40,000ts.
In the first massive bombing of Cologne, 1,455 ts of bombs were dropped.
In the bombing of Dresden, 2,600ts of bombs were used and it was one of the largest bombardmends done to German cities.
far from being anywhere near 40,000 if you ask me.

besides that, Germany was not "levelled". It is part of propaganda and movies, on both sides. Infact, even in Cologne, Dresden and Berlin, less than 30% of the buildings were damaged, an even smaller portion of which beyond repair. Even most British historicans think, that this bombraids were only effective for their own propaganda.

3. Germany lost about 1600-1700 pilots and crewmen during the Battle of Britain. I doubt that there were enough planes during that period of time to kill that many pilots in a day.

Chris0382
02-15-2007, 09:27 AM
According to the survey Hamburg may have been the worst bombing and was part of the thousand plane bombing missions the Allies began to use against Germany.

One of your U-Boats is over here by Block Island of Rhode Island the U-853 and I have visitd it once at a scuba dive of 120 ft and I hear the sand around the hull is still loaded with depth charges.

stathem
02-15-2007, 09:47 AM
As regards 2...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rammjaeger:


2. There was a DAY in the late-war period when a higher tonnage of bombs was dropped on German targets by the USAAF and the RAF than all the tonnage dropped on Great Britain by the Luftwaffe during the Battle of Britain.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would say if there was one day when this was likely it would have been Operation Clarion.

XyZspineZyX
02-15-2007, 10:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rammjaeger:
1. One of our history teachers claims that the effective range of the MG/FF cannons of the Bf-109E was over 1.5 km (meaning that German pilots routinely downed early-war British bombers from such a distance, beyond the range of the bomber gunners). I find that unlikely.

He also claims that

2. There was a DAY in the late-war period when a higher tonnage of bombs was dropped on German targets by the USAAF and the RAF than all the tonnage dropped on Great Britain by the Luftwaffe during the Battle of Britain.

3. There was also a DAY during the same period when the Luftwaffe fighter arm lost more pilots over Germany (while attacking the Allied bomber formations and escort fighters) than it lost over Great Britain during the Battle of Britain.

(he said fighter pilots, not fighter planes. The two are obviously not the same) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, proving him wrong on the weight of a game forum might not be smart http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

That said, my opinions

1. What does he mean by 'effective range'? Is this effective ballistically, ie: it can still penetrate X amount of material at that range, or does he mean it is effective AS a weapon, as in you can hit targets in combat with it at that range?

2. I assume 24 hour period here. This seems entirely possible. There were times when the bomber stream was hundreds of miles long, and people on the ground would look up at the seemingly un-ending contrails

3. In the battle of Briatain, consider the basic truth of Britian: it's an island.

If a fighter pilot bailed out, he was captured. if he crash landed he was captured. If he landed at an English airfield, he was captured

if his plane went down, obviously he either bailed out, or died in the crash. In either case, the plane is lost, and so is the pilot. I know of not a single German airman who escaped Britian during the war. Perhaps there was one, but I've never heard of it

Comparing losses for one day over Germany to losses in the Battle of Britain should not be that hard to do, and should be a cut and dried exercise

Abbuzze
02-15-2007, 11:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:


besides that, Germany was not "levelled". It is part of propaganda and movies, on both sides. Infact, even in Cologne, Dresden and Berlin, less than 30% of the buildings were damaged, an even smaller portion of which beyond repair. Even most British historicans think, that this bombraids were only effective for their own propaganda.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The problem is, this is statistic. Of course if you take a look at the complete cities together with the suburbs, the figures could be right, but if you take a look at the attacked areas "levelled" would fit. This is even more real for smaller cities with less area.

Level of destruction:
Bitburg: 85%
Mainz: 80%
Koblenz: 87%

In the city of Koblenz with a population of 100.000 today, just 4-5000 people still lived there at the end of the war.


Something differnt, IRC Franz von Werra flew from GB in the war.war.

Capt.LoneRanger
02-15-2007, 12:18 PM
Sorry, Abbuzze, but this is not correct. As an urban planner, I wrote an article about the level of destruction after WW2, taking the example of Mainz. About 80% houses in the inner city (Altstadt) were damaged or destroyed, which was way less than 30%. Most of the damaged buildings were destroyed though, as the French Commander wanted to get the city rebuilt to modern standards of traffic. The division of the city between the French Commander and the US-controlled west of the city complicated things further. In the end it took so long for them to come up with plans that were accepted by the citizens, they rebuilt the city almost exactly as it was in the meanwhile. "Only" 1200 people where killed in that attack, as most people allready moved outside the large cities in 1945.

Well, back to the topic: The large industrial area west of the inner city, with workers residents and stuff, as well as the larger disctrict south and west of the city were practially unharmed.

In Dec.1945, just some 9-10 month after the attack, still some 73.000 people lived in Mainz. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Abbuzze
02-15-2007, 03:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:
Sorry, Abbuzze, but this is not correct. As an urban planner, I wrote an article about the level of destruction after WW2, taking the example of Mainz. About 80% houses in the inner city (Altstadt) were damaged or destroyed, which was way less than 30%. Most of the damaged buildings were destroyed though, as the French Commander wanted to get the city rebuilt to modern standards of traffic. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that we basicly mean the same, there were mainly areas with high degree of destruction , and also untouched areas. I think looking at the complete city the percentage of destroyed houses is not that great. But mainly looking at the downtown I fear they are correct. At least for Koblenz.

Capt.LoneRanger
02-15-2007, 03:18 PM
Sure, if you want to make it like that, you can say Marburg was destroyed 100% - just because in a single street in the city all houses were destroyed.

Still, saying 80% of the cities were destroyed is plain wrong, cause it transfers a result that is true for an area to the complete city.

Waldo.Pepper
02-15-2007, 03:28 PM
Stop listening to this 'teacher'.

Abbuzze
02-15-2007, 03:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:


Still, saying 80% of the cities were destroyed is plain wrong, cause it transfers a result that is true for an area to the complete city. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a psychological thing. You are right for the complete numbers, but the areas which saved the soul of a city where largely destroyed. If you go to visit a city you don´t go to watch the worker residents (OK you are an urban planer - they do http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) But if you want to visit cologne you first went to the Dom, and if you take a look to postwar picture you know the situation. And it doesn´t help, if lets say Kln-Kalk was undamaged. This lower the percentage of damage, but the important parts for culture, very often architekture of a city were nearly leashed out.

Xiolablu3
02-15-2007, 03:58 PM
I htink your teacher has got confused.

There were 50,000 people killed in the whole German bombing campaign on Britian.

There were almost 50,000 people killed in the Dresden raid alone.

This is probabaly the comparison he wanted.

The others sound unlikely.

faustnik
02-15-2007, 04:06 PM
Standard firing range for Mg151 was 250-350 meters. The MGFF was inferior to the Mg151 in velocity and would drop off more over distance. 150 meters sounds more likely than 1500.

VW-IceFire
02-15-2007, 04:49 PM
The MG-FF one sounds ludicrous to me...1.5KM? In game the icon would say 1.5 next to the plane. I rarely hit anything outside of 0.6 (or 600m) and I think the best that I've heard was for US .50cal at 900 yards which is around 800 some odd meters. Even that I find to be at the outer range and just a bit lucky http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

So ...MG-FF with its slow muzzle velocity and massive shell drop has got to be darn near impossible to land onto any sort of target...even if it was a Wellington or something. With the MG-FF/M (with the mine round) you might do some damage when the high explosive went off if the shell did manage to land on the target (I say land because it'd be dropping pretty rapidly by that point).

Rammjaeger
02-16-2007, 07:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:
Interesting.

1. 1.5km sounds like nonsense.
The MG/FF AFAIK had a maximum effective range of 800-900m.
The only thing that actually surpasses this range is the 3.7cm-Gun on a BF110. I read some sources claiming it was effective as an aircraft mounted gun against bombers for over about 2km.

2. AFAIK the tonnage of bombs dropped by Germans during WW2 is about 40,000ts.
In the first massive bombing of Cologne, 1,455 ts of bombs were dropped.
In the bombing of Dresden, 2,600ts of bombs were used and it was one of the largest bombardmends done to German cities.
far from being anywhere near 40,000 if you ask me.

besides that, Germany was not "levelled". It is part of propaganda and movies, on both sides. Infact, even in Cologne, Dresden and Berlin, less than 30% of the buildings were damaged, an even smaller portion of which beyond repair. Even most British historicans think, that this bombraids were only effective for their own propaganda.

3. Germany lost about 1600-1700 pilots and crewmen during the Battle of Britain. I doubt that there were enough planes during that period of time to kill that many pilots in a day. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

1. OK, I need to specifiy. In fact his exact claim was this:

"German fighter pilots routinely downed British and French bombers from a distance of 1.5 - 2 km during the Battle of France and the RAF bombing campaign against Germany and occupied territories in 1939-1940."

He didn't specify the type of aircraft or the type of armament, but consider that most of the German fighters at that period were the Bf-109D, the Bf-109E-1 to E-4m and the Bf-110C.

2. His claim was about the tonnage of bombs dropped by the Luftwaffe on the UK during the Battle of Britain, not the amount they dropped throughout WW2 in total.

Furthermore, his claim was about the tonnage of bombs dropped by all Allied bombers onto German targets on a specific day, not the amount dropped in a single bomber raid.

3. Your claim is about "pilots and crewmen". His claim was about fighter pilots ALONE. How many fighter pilots did the LW lose over the UK during the Battle of Britain? I mean pilots either killed or taken prisoner.

Blutarski2004
02-16-2007, 09:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Originally posted by Rammjaeger:
1. OK, I need to specifiy. In fact his exact claim was this:

"German fighter pilots routinely downed British and French bombers from a distance of 1.5 - 2 km during the Battle of France and the RAF bombing campaign against Germany and occupied territories in 1939-1940." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... It makes no difference what period of the war it was or what armament was in use. Your teacher is incorrect connect 1500-2000 meter effective ranges to any air-to-air weapons of WW2.

Only if we are talking about light AAA in the 4x20mm to 37mm range could such a range band be considered as an effective one against aerial targets. German AAA did achieve this sort of effect during the Battle of France.

berg417448
02-16-2007, 09:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rammjaeger:



1. OK, I need to specifiy. In fact his exact claim was this:

"German fighter pilots routinely downed British and French bombers from a distance of 1.5 - 2 km during the Battle of France and the RAF bombing campaign against Germany and occupied territories in 1939-1940."

He didn't specify the type of aircraft or the type of armament, but consider that most of the German fighters at that period were the Bf-109D, the Bf-109E-1 to E-4m and the Bf-110C.

2. His claim was about the tonnage of bombs dropped by the Luftwaffe on the UK during the Battle of Britain, not the amount they dropped throughout WW2 in total.

Furthermore, his claim was about the tonnage of bombs dropped by all Allied bombers onto German targets on a specific day, not the amount dropped in a single bomber raid.

3. Your claim is about "pilots and crewmen". His claim was about fighter pilots ALONE. How many fighter pilots did the LW lose over the UK during the Battle of Britain? I mean pilots either killed or taken prisoner. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Your teacher would require you to produce your sources...challenge him to produce HIS sources for these claims.

rcocean
02-16-2007, 10:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rammjaeger:
1. One of our history teachers claims that the effective range of the MG/FF cannons of the Bf-109E was over 1.5 km (meaning that German pilots routinely downed early-war British bombers from such a distance, beyond the range of the bomber gunners). I find that unlikely.

He also claims that

2. There was a DAY in the late-war period when a higher tonnage of bombs was dropped on German targets by the USAAF and the RAF than all the tonnage dropped on Great Britain by the Luftwaffe during the Battle of Britain.

3. There was also a DAY during the same period when the Luftwaffe fighter arm lost more pilots over Germany (while attacking the Allied bomber formations and escort fighters) than it lost over Great Britain during the Battle of Britain.

(he said fighter pilots, not fighter planes. The two are obviously not the same) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

1. False. 1.5 KM = approximately 1,500 yards. Pilots rarely shot at let alone hit anything over 500 yards away. Perhaps by 'effective' he means that if actually hit an A/c at 1,500 yards it would cause damage, which is true.

2. If Battle of Britain he means July-October 1940 he is correct. USAAF ETO dropped 118,000 tons in March 1945 the RAF dropped 67,000 tons and the 15th AF added 40,0000 thats 225,000 tons in one month. By comparison in the entire war the Germans only dropped 40,000 tons on UK.

3. False. The Germans lost at 300 pilots during the battle of Britain. They never lost 300 pilots in ONE Day attacking US Bombers and the RAF. Especially when you consider large number of shot down pilots parachuted to safety.

MB_Avro_UK
02-16-2007, 05:39 PM
Hi all,

I was in Kiel,Germany a couple of years ago. The whole centre of the town has been rebuilt due to 'The Great Fire of 1942'. These signs are on buildings.

The centre of the town is a 'replica' and was destroyed by RAF bombing. I am English and felt disturbed by this.

The Germans I have spoken to are resigned to this and see it as a result of war. They do not differentiate between British and American bombings...it is all referred to in Germany as 'Allied Bombings'.

There were many towns in Germany that were not bombed e.g. Celle, which is an ancient and beautiful town.

The Germans suffered ten times more civilian casualties due to bombing than the British.

But what also must be remembered is that British RAF Bomber crews suffered 60,000 dead in the war against Germany. And the US aircrews suffered about 30,000 dead and far,far from home http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif

And what amazes me?? My visits to Germany have shown me that we British and the Germans are the same people....

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

Rammjaeger
02-17-2007, 09:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by berg417448:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rammjaeger:



1. OK, I need to specifiy. In fact his exact claim was this:

"German fighter pilots routinely downed British and French bombers from a distance of 1.5 - 2 km during the Battle of France and the RAF bombing campaign against Germany and occupied territories in 1939-1940."

He didn't specify the type of aircraft or the type of armament, but consider that most of the German fighters at that period were the Bf-109D, the Bf-109E-1 to E-4m and the Bf-110C.

2. His claim was about the tonnage of bombs dropped by the Luftwaffe on the UK during the Battle of Britain, not the amount they dropped throughout WW2 in total.

Furthermore, his claim was about the tonnage of bombs dropped by all Allied bombers onto German targets on a specific day, not the amount dropped in a single bomber raid.

3. Your claim is about "pilots and crewmen". His claim was about fighter pilots ALONE. How many fighter pilots did the LW lose over the UK during the Battle of Britain? I mean pilots either killed or taken prisoner. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Your teacher would require you to produce your sources...challenge him to produce HIS sources for these claims. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I will. I'll be meeting him the week after.

Rammjaeger
02-17-2007, 09:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rcocean:
3. False. The Germans lost at 300 pilots during the battle of Britain. They never lost 300 pilots in ONE Day attacking US Bombers and the RAF. Especially when you consider large number of shot down pilots parachuted to safety. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

300 fighter pilots, or 300 fighter and bomber pilots? The claim in question was about fighter pilots.

Rammjaeger
02-17-2007, 10:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rammjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by berg417448:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rammjaeger:



1. OK, I need to specifiy. In fact his exact claim was this:

"German fighter pilots routinely downed British and French bombers from a distance of 1.5 - 2 km during the Battle of France and the RAF bombing campaign against Germany and occupied territories in 1939-1940."

He didn't specify the type of aircraft or the type of armament, but consider that most of the German fighters at that period were the Bf-109D, the Bf-109E-1 to E-4m and the Bf-110C.

2. His claim was about the tonnage of bombs dropped by the Luftwaffe on the UK during the Battle of Britain, not the amount they dropped throughout WW2 in total.

Furthermore, his claim was about the tonnage of bombs dropped by all Allied bombers onto German targets on a specific day, not the amount dropped in a single bomber raid.

3. Your claim is about "pilots and crewmen". His claim was about fighter pilots ALONE. How many fighter pilots did the LW lose over the UK during the Battle of Britain? I mean pilots either killed or taken prisoner. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Your teacher would require you to produce your sources...challenge him to produce HIS sources for these claims. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I will do so the next time I visit his course (in 2 weeks). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>