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View Full Version : 109F4 with added 2x Emil wing canon?



Lt.Davis
08-06-2004, 10:23 PM
I have the read some article and have picture of it, that some of the early 109F-series with customize weapon loadout - added 109-Emil wing canon into it. If we have this choice of loadout in FB/AEP, than this bird will have quiet wonderful firepower.

Can it be done? Honorestly the early 109 series firepower are really dissapointment.

"Biar berputih tulang, jangan berputih mata"
Translated:
"Let the whites of your bones, but do not show the whites of your eyes"

Lt.Davis
08-06-2004, 10:23 PM
I have the read some article and have picture of it, that some of the early 109F-series with customize weapon loadout - added 109-Emil wing canon into it. If we have this choice of loadout in FB/AEP, than this bird will have quiet wonderful firepower.

Can it be done? Honorestly the early 109 series firepower are really dissapointment.

"Biar berputih tulang, jangan berputih mata"
Translated:
"Let the whites of your bones, but do not show the whites of your eyes"

JtD
08-07-2004, 12:01 AM
This dual wing cannon 109F was built by a special request by one German ace. Afaik there was about _one_ F with this armarment. Don't like the idea of including this into FB, but since we have Gos and YP-80s...

WUAF_Badsight
08-07-2004, 12:04 AM
it was Adolf Gallands plane

he didnt like the F1 Bf109 over his Emil because of the less armament

the F Bf109 was altered for himself

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

DONB3397
08-07-2004, 12:16 AM
According to one of my profile books, it was an Me 109F-2/Z which Galland had modified with a wing-mounted MG FF cannon and an MG 131 over the engine. Spot on, Badsight. The skin is up on Il2skins. Here:
http://www.il2skins.com/?action=display&skinid=13192

Unfortunately, this isn't offered in the loadout for an F-2 in FB/AEP.

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v243/DONB3397/SpitSig01b.jpg
"And now I see with eye serene/The very pulse of the machine;
A being breathing thoughtful breath,/A Traveller between life and death." -- Wordsworth

Charos
08-07-2004, 01:50 AM
Apparently Galland had 3 BF109F's modified as he was of the opinion that the F - Series was under-gunned.

One machine apparently had a MG151/20 in the Prop-hub, two MG17s on the hood and two MG FF on the Wings.

The other two were fitted with two MG131's on the Hood instead of the standard MG17's and kept the standard MG151/20 in the Hub.

The BF109F4 began production in May 1941 so I guess these must have been BF109F4 Aircraft as they were displayed to Goring when he visited JG26 on December 5th 1941.

What is also interesting is that his aircraft with the Wing mounted MG FF Cannon also had a 100 Octane marking on the Aircraft. So he was probably flying a F4 with a DB601E using 100 Octane instead of 87.
Anyone know if this is correct?

[This message was edited by Charos on Sat August 07 2004 at 01:13 AM.]

F19_Ob
08-07-2004, 03:18 AM
Yes Gallands F2.
The normal 109 F2 had the "15mm cannon" and although it wasnt as hardhitting as the 20mm it had the flattest trajectory of the german aircraft cannons.
The 109 F4 got the 20mm cannon (same as 109 G2).

Charos
08-07-2004, 05:34 AM
So Gallands plane was an F2 with the MG151/15 replaced with a MG151/20 with a DB601N and instead of using the standard 96 octane fuel he used 100 octane instead.

KaRaYa-X
08-07-2004, 12:40 PM
Actually this planes designation is/was:

Bf109F6/U - not to be mixed up with the standard Bf109F6 which was a reece version with photo equipment.

I've got the book "Die deutschen Jagdfliegerasse 1939-45" (The German Fighter-Aces 1939-45) which features a copy of an after-action report/kill claim filled out by Adolf Galland. On one side Galland writes about the tactical situation and how he made the kill (a Spitfire) - on the other side he filled out all necessary information such as ammo-types used/number of bullets fired (he used all of his weapons including the single MG151/20, the MG17s and the two MGFF/M in the wings), what kind of parts came off of the plane, if the pilot survived (he didn't; PK and the plane crashed into the channel), etc...
Only a few lines below he then states "F6/U" as used aircraft type

Oh: and the most important feature for Galland in his Bf109F6/U was of course the unique cigar holder in his cockpit! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

--= flying online as JG=52Karaya-X =--

IL2-chuter
08-07-2004, 06:52 PM
Couldn't any aircraft equipped with the mg151/15 be converted to 20mm? The gun was convertible (just a barrel,oh, and ammo change) so it seems likely. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

--and it isn't as far fetched to include this . . . --



http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

"I fly only Full Real in Il2 Forgotten Battles." -Mark Donohue

Charos
08-07-2004, 10:10 PM
Thankyou Karaya-x

You pointed me in the right Direction - Check this page out :

http://www.adlertag.de/flugzeuge/bf109feng.htm

As you stated Gallands Plane was Designated BF109F6/U but bear in mind this plane was made before the end of 1941 where the other BF109F6 were not produced till 1942.

When I saw the Supercharger intake on the one of the planes shown to Goring on the 5th of December 1941 it had the type on the F0, F1 and F2 model not the Bulged F4 type which the BF109F6 would have.

As the above mentioned Page notes this plane appears to be a BF109F0 with the DB601N using 100octane instead of 96 octane. and a MG151/15 in place of the MG FF Cannon through the hub.

The page seems to have some info Incorrect it mentions the BF109F6/U as having:
------------------------------------
2 x 7,9 mm MG 17 (above the engine)
1 x MG 151/15 (fireing through the spinner)
2 x MG FF/M (one below each wing)
------------------------------------

The MG FF/M were imbedded in the wing NOT below it in a gondola.

I would assume the hub mounted gun was a MG151/20 rather than a MG151/15 as the BF109F4 was in production by April/May 1941.

The page does mention that the wing Guns were the Newer MG FF/M rather than the old Battle of Britain vintage MG FF types which seems correct.

The page also mentions only one BF109F6 being built which is not correct as it was the main Recon version of the BF109F - there are many pics of this plane in service.

In mid 1941 Galland was flying a BF109F4, since the modifications to the 3 planes was done by JG26 groundcrew its safe to assume they were most likely BF109F2's. BF109F0's of which there was only 19 were never delivered to the front line and the BF109F1 only had 206 Built and delivery was started in September 1940. Not to mention the BF109F1 had the MG FF/M in the Hub so conversion to the MG151/20 might not have been possible by JG26 groundcrew. Note that the MG151/20 is just a rebored MG151/15, they have the same external dimensions as fas as I know.

lesio109
08-08-2004, 04:56 AM
maybe this will clear things a bit (i wonder how many times same topic will be rolled over and over again...)

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=281101432&r=182103932#182103932

PS. for all those who "know" it was built on Galland's personal request (Badsight and oters)...naaah, no comments (WTG for knowledge on 109's)

Charos
08-08-2004, 08:11 AM
If this plane was based on the BF109F6 wouldnt it have a DB601E and not a DB601N Engine?

Why would galland have the DB601E removed and a DB601N installed with less power?

If it was based on the BF109F6 wouldnt it have the bulged F4 Supercharger intake instead of the F2 type?

lesio109
08-08-2004, 01:32 PM
this site U got info from...well, it's what developers call "unreliable data" (actually it's a total mess - just check speeds for their F6 and F6/U)...

F6 was NOT built over F4 (wondering where they got this info from), but F2...Galland's plane wasn't based on F6 but it was F6, and F6 wasn't originally a recon plane...

Charos
08-08-2004, 06:57 PM
I did not utilise that site as my ONLY reference - I have numerous references.

As what I said and you confirmed is that the aircraft in Question WAS at least initially BF109F2.

Then if Im understanding you correctly this aircraft along with other BF109F2's were converted to BF109F6 Spec's, and then factory altered to a "BF109F6/U" to Gallands Specs.

To my understanding the BF109F6 had its Cannon and windscreen armor glass removed to save weight which would have been put back again on gallands AC.
So what was it that made this aircraft more BF109F6 than BF109F2?
You mentioned the Original BF109F6 Spec was not intended as a Recon AC, do you have more info on that?

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2004, 09:11 PM
Absolutely, we do NOT need or want to see this plane in FB.

As noted, it was a special personal plane for Galland. One (or few) of a kind.

Let's not repeat the mistakes of the MiG-3U, the Bi-1, need I go through the list again?

You want two wing cannon? Fly an Emil or a Kannonenboot. Simple as that. Make do with the representative planes, not the one-off novelties.

Charos
08-08-2004, 09:19 PM
I dont want this plane in the game either

WUAF_Badsight
08-08-2004, 09:53 PM
if teh Frederich had wing cannons . . . .. it would be my favorite Bf109 to fly

as for me saying it was done on Gallands request ....... show me where & ill correct it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif