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View Full Version : One area where il-2 has Bob2:WoV beat hands down



Lurch1962
11-25-2008, 08:55 PM
Namely, in the representation of the gun sight reticle.

(BTW, I've been 'flying' IL-2 for 5 years now.)

With the thousands of air combat sim hours I've accumulated over the years, I've gotten to be a reasonably decent shot where deflection is concerned. After my first day of really putting my newly-purchased BoB2:WoV through its tweaking/testing phase right after installation, it became abundantly apparent that something was amiss. Oh yeah, I am running 2.08, soon to be 2.09...

In a pure 6 o'clock chase I had no trouble scoring hits, but under any kind of G-load I was registering an EXTREMELY LOW hit percentage as compared to expectation and past experience. Well, I discovered why.

For some unfathomable reason, Rowan decided to represent the gun sight reticle in a most curious--and utterly incorrect--manner. Instead of a collimated projection which optically lies at or near infinity, it's placed in 3-D space *awfully* nearby. More specifically, only about 1/3 the distance between the wind screen and prop!

This is not very different from the location of the P-40's iron ring sight. And we all know that such a nearby location of a sighting mechanism requires an extremely accurate sight line, as is afforded by the sight's corresponding bead. Without the latter, the ring is useless because even a slight misalignment of the eye renders the sight picture invalid--you're not shooting where you think you are.

This is the precise reason optical reflector sights were invented; to remove parallax errors induced by eye misalignment in a necessarily unstable environment such as a maneuvering plane.

So. With Rowan's gun sight reticle working exactly like an iron sight's ring (and minus the required bead, to boot), you MUST ALWAYS have your virtual eye aligned very precisely behind the reflector plate. How closely?

With head bobbing enabled (where the virtual viewpoint moves about while the plane is maneuvering), as you pull G your virtual self is scrunched down in the seat and the viewpoint drops a little. Well, just that fairly small depression of the sight line throws the aim point with respect to the reticle out of line. To the point where, instead of the bullets' trajectories being in line with the central cross, they are depressed a full half-ring diameter DOWN (where the cross intersects the ring's bottom.)

And that's doubly injurious, because the bullets are aimed even farther BEHIND the bandit than you think, where if anything one should at most times aim even farther IN FRONT.

This was amply confirmed after I turned head bobbing off. At a stroke I was 'back in the saddle', getting the hits I'd come to expect. Furthermore, BoB2's 'Wonder Woman' view has a fixed reticle which necessarily exhibits no anomalous 'behavior'. In this view I also score a goodly number of hits against maneuvering bandits, as expected.

The closeness of the reticle is made exquisitely clear as you use the head movement controls, or if you have a 6dof head tracker. With the much larger traversal of the viewpoint, the location of the reticle--which from the 'pit is ALWAYS visible, even when well removed outside the reflector plate (!!!)--can be pretty firmly placed as lying less than halfway from windscreen to propeller, 'floating' above the cowling.

In one other respect is BoB2's reticle incorrect. It's rendered as an opaque yellow object through which light doesn't pass, except to some degree the blurred 'edge'. A real gun sight reticle is an image of a light source superimposed on the background, and therefore CANNOT block light from the background--the reticle's image and the background add together. Of course, if the background is sufficiently darker than the reticle, the reticle will dominate to the point where it might *seem* than no light is getting through, but it does nonetheless.


IL-2's reticle behaves correctly, in that:

- it appears to lie infinitely distant, and most definitely NOT just a few feet beyond the wind screen,

- it is visible ONLY through the reflector plate and, and

- it is transparent, and most definitely NOT an opaque blocker of background light.


Yay, IL-2!


P.S. No, I haven't confused depression of the sight line with respect to the reticle with the apparent arcing of bullet trajectories while under G-load. I'm fully aware of the latter 'illusion' which makes it appear as though the tracers are being lobbed low.

Lurch1962
11-25-2008, 08:55 PM
Namely, in the representation of the gun sight reticle.

(BTW, I've been 'flying' IL-2 for 5 years now.)

With the thousands of air combat sim hours I've accumulated over the years, I've gotten to be a reasonably decent shot where deflection is concerned. After my first day of really putting my newly-purchased BoB2:WoV through its tweaking/testing phase right after installation, it became abundantly apparent that something was amiss. Oh yeah, I am running 2.08, soon to be 2.09...

In a pure 6 o'clock chase I had no trouble scoring hits, but under any kind of G-load I was registering an EXTREMELY LOW hit percentage as compared to expectation and past experience. Well, I discovered why.

For some unfathomable reason, Rowan decided to represent the gun sight reticle in a most curious--and utterly incorrect--manner. Instead of a collimated projection which optically lies at or near infinity, it's placed in 3-D space *awfully* nearby. More specifically, only about 1/3 the distance between the wind screen and prop!

This is not very different from the location of the P-40's iron ring sight. And we all know that such a nearby location of a sighting mechanism requires an extremely accurate sight line, as is afforded by the sight's corresponding bead. Without the latter, the ring is useless because even a slight misalignment of the eye renders the sight picture invalid--you're not shooting where you think you are.

This is the precise reason optical reflector sights were invented; to remove parallax errors induced by eye misalignment in a necessarily unstable environment such as a maneuvering plane.

So. With Rowan's gun sight reticle working exactly like an iron sight's ring (and minus the required bead, to boot), you MUST ALWAYS have your virtual eye aligned very precisely behind the reflector plate. How closely?

With head bobbing enabled (where the virtual viewpoint moves about while the plane is maneuvering), as you pull G your virtual self is scrunched down in the seat and the viewpoint drops a little. Well, just that fairly small depression of the sight line throws the aim point with respect to the reticle out of line. To the point where, instead of the bullets' trajectories being in line with the central cross, they are depressed a full half-ring diameter DOWN (where the cross intersects the ring's bottom.)

And that's doubly injurious, because the bullets are aimed even farther BEHIND the bandit than you think, where if anything one should at most times aim even farther IN FRONT.

This was amply confirmed after I turned head bobbing off. At a stroke I was 'back in the saddle', getting the hits I'd come to expect. Furthermore, BoB2's 'Wonder Woman' view has a fixed reticle which necessarily exhibits no anomalous 'behavior'. In this view I also score a goodly number of hits against maneuvering bandits, as expected.

The closeness of the reticle is made exquisitely clear as you use the head movement controls, or if you have a 6dof head tracker. With the much larger traversal of the viewpoint, the location of the reticle--which from the 'pit is ALWAYS visible, even when well removed outside the reflector plate (!!!)--can be pretty firmly placed as lying less than halfway from windscreen to propeller, 'floating' above the cowling.

In one other respect is BoB2's reticle incorrect. It's rendered as an opaque yellow object through which light doesn't pass, except to some degree the blurred 'edge'. A real gun sight reticle is an image of a light source superimposed on the background, and therefore CANNOT block light from the background--the reticle's image and the background add together. Of course, if the background is sufficiently darker than the reticle, the reticle will dominate to the point where it might *seem* than no light is getting through, but it does nonetheless.


IL-2's reticle behaves correctly, in that:

- it appears to lie infinitely distant, and most definitely NOT just a few feet beyond the wind screen,

- it is visible ONLY through the reflector plate and, and

- it is transparent, and most definitely NOT an opaque blocker of background light.


Yay, IL-2!


P.S. No, I haven't confused depression of the sight line with respect to the reticle with the apparent arcing of bullet trajectories while under G-load. I'm fully aware of the latter 'illusion' which makes it appear as though the tracers are being lobbed low.

Player_43
11-25-2008, 09:00 PM
You should go out th breath some fresh air between two sorties and everything will be OK http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Xiolablu3
11-25-2008, 09:11 PM
Interesting analysis. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

stalkervision
11-25-2008, 09:17 PM
I never had a problem with the 109 sight and I fly upside down half the time while firing! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I just switch to the close up reticle setting when I fire at a target same as I do in Il-2. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif IMO it is more realistic from a shooters point of view anyway in either game. When one flies a plane or drives a car the windshield and dashboard soon disappear to your conscious and the outside view is all you see anyway. Same with the gunsite if you aren't aware of it and just conscentrate on the target. BTW, I make deflection kills all the time this way. I even shrank the hit box recently and still make good kills with a bit of a adjustmant. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif This guy just lost half is elevator and crashed soon after.

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/2462/shot120yc3.jpg

Stickman has a 109 sight mod you might want to try buddy.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

here is a wide angle site view. I rarly if ever use it while firing but it ain't half bad. forgive the upsidedown nature. I was in a "who can fly upsideown the best" contest.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/6349/shot203ih9.jpg

Skoshi Tiger
11-25-2008, 09:19 PM
Are you using the 6DOF with track IR? This would be an issue with the MOD, not the original game. Remember that BoB2:WoV has been extensively modiied since it went out of production.

stalkervision
11-25-2008, 09:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Skoshi Tiger:
Are you using the 6DOF with track IR? This would be an issue with the MOD, not the original game. Remember that BoB2:WoV has been extensively modiied since it went out of production. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't have six dof but many do on the site without problem I am aware of. I am sure someone can answer his questions about this better then I.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Btw does Il-2 have 6 dof ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

stalkervision
11-25-2008, 09:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">This is the precise reason optical reflector sights were invented; to remove parallax errors induced by eye misalignment in a necessarily unstable environment such as a maneuvering plane. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm really confused now. I thought reflector sights were designed to be adjustable for range of guns to target and gun convergence/sight adjustments?? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/8921/shot642aa5.jpg

My common view.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Chivas
11-25-2008, 10:07 PM
I've always found a high G deflection shot much harder in BOB WOV than IL-2. Not sure which is right and don't care.

stalkervision
11-25-2008, 10:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chivas:
I've always found a high G deflection shot much harder in BOB WOV than IL-2. Not sure which is right and don't care. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Me too. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif especially with a shrunken hit box! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

i really dont care either. I just adjust myself to the games as I play them. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

WTE_Galway
11-25-2008, 10:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:

Btw does Il-2 have 6 dof ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

standard .. no
modded .. yes

stalkervision
11-25-2008, 10:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:

Btw does Il-2 have 6 dof ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

standard .. no
modded .. yes </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

is it any good? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WTE_Galway
11-25-2008, 10:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:

Btw does Il-2 have 6 dof ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

standard .. no
modded .. yes </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

is it any good? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

no idea ... don't use mods http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

though it seems a popular mod

stalkervision
11-25-2008, 10:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:

Btw does Il-2 have 6 dof ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

standard .. no
modded .. yes </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

is it any good? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

no idea ... don't use mods http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

though it seems a popular mod </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Me neither.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif When I see actual new cockpits modeled as well as oleg does them then i might.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

stalkervision
11-25-2008, 10:28 PM
btw I won the low altitude upside down flying contest with these screenshot.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/6527/shot213qb0.jpg

http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/7568/shot214hy1.jpg


http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/3581/shot212fg0.jpg

It still gets me dizzy remembering that day.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

TooCooL34
11-25-2008, 10:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:

Btw does Il-2 have 6 dof ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

standard .. no
modded .. yes </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

is it any good? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Can't fly without it.

stalkervision
11-25-2008, 10:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TooCooL34:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:

Btw does Il-2 have 6 dof ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

standard .. no
modded .. yes </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

is it any good? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Can't fly without it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ahh, you guys are so damn spoiled.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

stalkervision
11-25-2008, 10:37 PM
Btw if any of you have a similiar contest idea here I ain't in alright.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

This is how I fly my 109 most of the time in vertical manauvers.

http://img379.imageshack.us/img379/3674/shot312ft8.jpg

I only have to be upside down with these for a short time.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

stalkervision
11-25-2008, 10:49 PM
Anyway Lurch I believe someone from shockwave that knows about these things far far better will answer all your questions soon. I am a wizzz at thumb Hat switches though in case you need any advice in that direction.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

na85
11-25-2008, 11:10 PM
The skin on that 109 cockpit is fugly.

GregGal
11-26-2008, 12:27 AM
Yepp, that's true what you said about BoB2 gunsights. I hope one day the BDG will be able to correct it. Especially, because offline il2 is more of a shooting from 6 o'clock or a 2G turn at maximum, while BoB Huns try everything they can to shake you off. So a correct gunshight would be more needed.

GregGal
11-26-2008, 12:27 AM
Yepp, that's true what you said about BoB2 gunsights. I hope one day the BDG will be able to correct it. Especially, because offline il2 is more of a shooting from 6 o'clock or a 2G turn at maximum, while BoB Huns try everything they can to shake you off. So a correct gunshight would be more needed there.

stalkervision
11-26-2008, 07:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by na85:
The skin on that 109 cockpit is fugly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif Well for one that wasn't the best pic of it. It is very nice looking IMO..

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/282/shot080rf9.jpg

The actual 109 dashboard is made of matt black leather over metal if you didn't know which bob duplicates extreamly well IMO. I find the cockpit true realistic look much superior to my Il-2 109.

http://www.raf.mod.uk/bob1940/images/cockpit1091.jpg

GregGal
11-26-2008, 07:24 AM
Yes, IMHO BoB2 cockpits are much more realistic than Il2 ones - apart from the gunsight. I especially love the lightings. Not talking about the fact that it's clickable, and you can open it. (and close it too on RAF planes)

Klemm.co
11-26-2008, 08:22 AM
IL-2's reticle does not lie at infinity too. Would be pretty hard to do in a game with finite distances anyway.
The reticle floats somewhere around the prop to 10 meters in front of the cockpit, not more.
If you use 6DOF, you can easily identify this.
I get some aiming errors too sometimes because of this, especially in the Corsair.

So IL-2 has that weakness too, but it's not as bad. Who knows why the developers chose that short distance...

buddye1
11-26-2008, 10:51 AM
The poster did an good job of documenting the short comings of the BOBII gun sight. We are aware the gun sight is an issue.

The BDG will get it solved down the road, I hope.

Here is the thread on the BOBII forum if you are interested in the BDG's explaination.

http://a2asimulations.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=12553

BTW, BOBII has a ton of new 2.09 features and object that we have released if you are interested in looking at the updates.

http://a2asimulations.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=12476

Chivas
11-26-2008, 11:57 AM
Hi Buddye

Are the gauges working yet? i.e. Fuel gauge

~Salute~
Chivas

buddye1
11-26-2008, 12:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chivas:
Hi Buddye

Are the gauges working yet? i.e. Fuel gauge

~Salute~
Chivas </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We have a model issue so the 3D fuel gauge is still not working as yet.

We do have the 2dGauges system working great which includes the fuel gauge.

You can place and control (what is on/off) the 2Dgauges as you want.

Do a Search for "2Dgauges" and find the thread that tells you how to do it, if interested but try here first:

http://a2asimulations.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=11652

Here is what I have design for my 2dgauges for my Spit (of course I need and use all these gauges for my work on BOBII so you may only want the fuel which is OK). The green A/C on the right is for damage for my A/C or when I padlock an target the damage for the target which I use for testing the AI:

http://www.shockwaveproductions.com/bob_dev/shot_002.jpg

Lurch1962
11-26-2008, 12:21 PM
Buddye1,
Thanks for chiming in! In the past I've posted here on the workings of optical gun sights (which are such a simple device), and find that there's quite a host of misconceptions out there.

And make no mistake. I DO love BoB2 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif ! It's too bad that you guys were stuck with Rowan's poorly executed reticle. I do hope it's fixed soon, as a properly working sight is a wonderful thing.


(BTW, I've tried registering with the A2A forums, but get a cryptic, e-mailed form asking for a parent or guardian's signature and then either faxing or mailing it to ???? No fax# nor address is supplied. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif )


Klemm.co,
I don't have any of the mods for IL-2 (yet http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ), and so based my conclusions on the fact that with head bobbing enabled in IL-2 I see no discrepancy in the reticle's position with respect to a very distant object.

So based on your observations, it would seem that IL-2's sight is NOT placed at infinity, or even hundreds of meters distant. But I'd say with confidence that its distance as represented is adeqately distant so as to result in such small parallax error when seen *THROUGH THE REFLECTOR* as to be negligible. It takes the 6dof mod to reveal any appreciable error.

My 'gripe' with BoB2's gun sight was that it's so nearby that even when still well visible through the reflector plate the parallax error can be huge.