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View Full Version : TrackIR & Mouse view......



LEBillfish
04-22-2005, 07:51 AM
Originally posted by BuzzU:
Anybody who thinks TrackIR is the same as padlock has never tried TrackIR. Unlike padlock with trackIR you have to find the target and follow it yourself, and you can lose it. You don't lose targets with padlock.

Why wouldn't TrackIR fit in with full real? Doesn't your view change when you move your head? Sounds real to me. 1000% more real than padlock.

I'm probably the blindest guy flying PF, and I wouldn't be caught dead out of the cockpit or using padlock. Is it harder, and does it get me killed more? Yes! So what? Easier isn't better.


Posts edited to reflect BuzzU's view as that is the only answer....Obviously, and with my appologies.

How very stupid of me to try and find a way to "work" external sim pilots one step toward flying internal by making f6 radar selectable by the host, and make it more challenging for all (dare I state I don't like icons on as well?....let me know what's right, thank you).

With greatest admiration for my hero and personal role model.....BuzzU.....*swoon*

VW-IceFire
04-22-2005, 07:59 AM
Agreed!

3.JG51_BigBear
04-22-2005, 08:14 AM
That would be a great feature.

Te_Vigo
04-22-2005, 08:27 AM
People use padlock?

TX-Gunslinger
04-22-2005, 01:42 PM
Great idea Billfish....how could anyone argue with that well thought out idea.

Ooops...well almost forgot which forum we're in http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Someone will surely come along and find fault with this.

S~

Badsight.
04-22-2005, 02:15 PM
i dont see how gunslinger

external lock goes a long way to turning people off external view option

i can bandit lock 300 Km out

anyone can

we need a option where you can have external view , but not :

1) cycle the view thru all the other planes
&
2) lock the view on bandit planes that are near

p1ngu666
04-22-2005, 03:14 PM
i actually have no idea howto use padlock http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif
but yeah some i know press padlock to spot target or enemy friendly without lookin http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Bull_dog_
04-22-2005, 03:35 PM
I've never been in a situation where I didn't like more choices...too many is never enough

Stiglr
04-24-2005, 07:56 PM
Well, Billfish, let's throw your comments into the bullsh*t category, too.

It's pretty weak to ask a question and then narrow down the range of responses you "want" to hear. If you've already made up your mind, or only want to hear the kinds of answers you've already decided are acceptable, save us even having to read it: don't post and ask for opinions.

Fact of the matter is, I don't use TrackIR and I am a proponent of NEVER using externals when flying.

I even have a caveat for that: I think it's ok if you're in a multicrew plane, since you have multiple pairs of eyes which pretty much can see 360 around the entire plane.

It's not about my convenience: it's obviously more convenient to be able to "float in back of my plane" and see everything around me. But that's not how it was in these planes: many had distinct blindspots, cramped cockpits and less-than-perfect vision. That, to me, is all the reason I need to fall on the "cockpit on, ALWAYS" side of this argument, imperfect pit models and all.

VW-IceFire
04-24-2005, 08:04 PM
Stiglr, not all of us agree with your sentiment or perfer to fly it the same way you do. I entirely respect the ability for you to fly that way and I sometimes do myself...but how can you argue that adding options to cater the audience of a server (or a single player pilot) is a necessarily bad thing - or "bull****" as so mentioned.

I'm always for more options...I like to custom configure everything. Is that bad?

Not all feature suggestions are good ones but this one makes sense. It fits with the ability to make other decisions in the game...its a nice idea.

Additionally, I'd like to ask for the feature to have cockpit on/externals off coops but when you die then you can have a look around (perhaps with restricted chat to spectators only). That'd add a level of functionality too and I know people have asked in the past and will probably ask again in the future for such a possibility.

Lixma
04-24-2005, 08:28 PM
I'd love to know how using Track IR gives you an advantage in FR...or anywhere for that matter.

Te_Vigo
04-24-2005, 08:35 PM
I'd like to see that one as well Icefire.
Maybe restricted chat for the ones shot down until the end of the mission but then again voice comms bypasses that.
As well, I would think an option to kill CTRL F2 but leave SHFT F2 available in externals on games.

LEXX_Luthor
04-25-2005, 12:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Lixma, it gives an advantage in being able to smothly track an object or quickly check around you WITHOUT having to use a hand to do it....A hand that could be controlling the plane better and a hat is nowhere as smooth <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Checking behind you took alot of effort and was very distracting for pilot. We have it easy compared to them. This is why so many WW2 fighter pilots got caught from behind because they were too inexperienced, tired, or lazy to look behind them (it takes extra effort, lots of effort, to look around when flying).

~> Lots of effort.

~~> We have it easy compared to them. BE SURES. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>This also part of the "Great Debate" I wanted to avoid. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Real Life pilots all wish they could turn off their cockpits and see through their planes and even they said there was no more Debate. The best the engineers could give them was bubble canopies, or remove the canopies.

In fact, Japanese fighter pilots Whined so much, the Army made Nakijima dump the Ki~27 canopy ("no "debate, be sure" ~Army). Same with I~16. Ya, these originally had closed canopies,

One thing Oleg simulates 100% accuracy is World War 2 fighter pilot Whining about cockpit view. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Fehler
04-25-2005, 01:10 AM
The biggest complaint about externals usually comes from the B&Z camp where surprise is the most essential element of the attack. Let's face it, the FW190 cannot compare to a turn fighter in combat is the 190 cannot use it's speed to create surprise. (Although the 190 guy can deflection shoot a lot better with no pit view http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

But let's also come to grips with the cockpit situation. It simulates a one-eyed person with his head on a stick. A 2d representation of a 3d world. It cant be perfect for that reason.

I like the fact that the game can be customized to the player's taste. Thus, more customization would only make the game better!

What settings a person wishes to use is up to him/her. How could this ever be bad?

I think a large number of the people here spout off their elitist opinion without even thinking that their way is not the only. But the truth is neither way is perfect, so what is the point in arguing over it?

I give Billfish's idea a http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

LEXX_Luthor
04-25-2005, 01:32 AM
Unfortunately Fehler, we have it Easy in this sim looking around the sky, compared to real life (not gamer) pilots.

~~> We have it Easy.

A fairly high level of experience and training is needed to overcome the natural pilot behavior of just flying without looking around. This is why so many fighter pilots got Bounced.

I use Mouse View flawlessly in teh dogfight.

Before we make jokes about me using TrekkieIR (I don't http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif), allow me to join in the Fun. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

For those having difficulty, and don't have TrekkieIR, what helps is setting Mouse Sensitivity to 5.0 or higher in the game Input Menu. Default is 1.0 or 2.0 I think. Just be sure to set Mouse Sensitivity back to low setting before you do any FMB or QMB mouse work, or mouse cursor rockets across the screen.

LEXX_Luthor
04-25-2005, 01:56 AM
Well, I must admit I don't even know what External Padlock does. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif I never tried it, and have not used Internal Padlock in a year since I taught myself how to use Mouse View.

All I'm saying is for those like me without TrekkieIR, we can have great internal view system by setting Mouse Sensitivity much higher in the game Input Menu.

deltaVtango
04-25-2005, 05:12 AM
I only fly online on servers with cockpits always on.
When flying SP I allow externals but don't use them in flight.

I'd like to see the option to allow externals ONLY WHILST ON THE GROUND , that way you can admire skins (yours and others), marvel at (and take screenies of) the damage done to your plane after you landed (or crash landed) it, WITHOUT being able to use externals as a 'cheat' whilst flying.

JtD
04-25-2005, 10:10 AM
I have been suggesting this thing since about when I started playing IL-2, but never got any response.

What's so hard about configuring externals the same way like internals? After all, you don't even need extra switches, you can simply apply the setting you chose for internals already.

(That goes for Padlock and Blackouts, mainly.)

Tachyon1000
04-26-2005, 08:41 PM
Is there anyone who doesn't play this game in-cockpit with Track-IR? I pity those folk. I have an old TR-1 which I find substandard but that I can't imagine flying without.

LEXX_Luthor
04-26-2005, 11:43 PM
Well, I know we have a one~armed simmer/simmeretter here, and some need Padlock (or TrekkieIR). I conveniently "forgot" this and agonized over the recent 24 hour "2 week" period. I do stupid stuff too you know.

LEBillfish, if you say others can't Debate, then you only attract Debate. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The whole "full real" or whatever Debate is solved with easy to see below you LOD models and distant dots that can be seen and tracked below you without being lost.

However, I (may) have found a partial solution to the Buzzu LOD Problem. Take your downloaded skins and vastly brighten them in a paint program. Then you can see them against forest and green terrain below you without them mystically vanishing (compare Bf~110 with Bf~109 LOD visibility, exactly reversed). For Dots, in Chat Mode set mp_dotrange a neutral black 4km Range limit with all other information set to Zero except the 4km Dot Range. Toggle these Range icons on/off with fast Joystick hat switch when you lose distant Dot below when running at high resolutions above 1024x768. Hat switches are freed up using Mouse View with increased mouse sensitivity...a <span class="ev_code_yellow">Brilliant</span> programming move by Oleg. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif That, and allowing us the Power to map elevator trim to mouse wheel.

Tachyon::
Is there anyone who doesn't play this game in-cockpit with Track-IR? I pity those folk. I have an old TR-1 which I find substandard but that I can't imagine flying without.
You can't imagine because the increasing mouse sensitivity in our game input menu has never been really pushed. And we won't see NaturalPoint talking about this as a way to increase flight simmer looking power.

JuHa-
04-27-2005, 01:56 AM
Why not go all the way, and make the externals (own, friendly, foe) and padlocks (friend or foe)
fully configurable at servers?

External views: Own plane | All | Friendly only |Off

Padlock_1: All | Internal only | Off

Padlock_2: All | Friendly only | Off

Should give enough options for all crowds!

JtD
04-27-2005, 10:23 AM
Looks good.

Sadly we have only on-off atm. So how do you put it into binary? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BuzzU
04-27-2005, 11:15 AM
Anybody who thinks TrackIR is the same as padlock has never tried TrackIR. Unlike padlock with trackIR you have to find the target and follow it yourself, and you can lose it. You don't lose targets with padlock.

Why wouldn't TrackIR fit in with full real? Doesn't your view change when you move your head? Sounds real to me. 1000% more real than padlock.

I'm probably the blindest guy flying PF, and I wouldn't be caught dead out of the cockpit or using padlock. Is it harder, and does it get me killed more? Yes! So what? Easier isn't better.

BuzzU
04-27-2005, 11:39 AM
Quoting yourself is a sign of something. Not sure what, but it can't be good.

BuzzU
04-27-2005, 12:44 PM
I was on topic. You just didn't get the answers you wanted.

JuHa-
04-27-2005, 12:59 PM
Sadly we have only on-off atm. So how do you put it into binary?

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Add another bit.

OR, use undefined/high-Z as third value, but
this requires HW support :-P

More options, more configurations is what we
want, but not the mismatches in configs that
it brings too ....

mazexx
04-27-2005, 01:45 PM
They say that children have a narrow field of view so I tested that on my 2.5 year old son and he could sure see the FW-190 1/48 model I put up at 3 o'clock high trying to b&z him... I can assure that he was not using TrackIR and he was looking straight forward anyway http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Is 85 degrees of vision to be considered realistic? I have way better fov than that when I'm piss *** drunk, and I would not dream of taking my Spitfire for a spin then (normally) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I'm in on the proposal to make external padlock an option in the server... Naturally multi monitor support with 5 monitors or so would be better, but even if it would be supported I would not like to see my wifes reaction to a setup like that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

/Mazex

CAPT_COTTON
04-27-2005, 02:51 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif
WOW another button to turn on or off thats not mentioned in the brief. I look for the coxpit on or off box being checked or not and the same for the lockon.I two like others would like too get the three monitors to work and save up the money to get trk r to move it around and if the room has all same settigs we haft to learn to use them dont we? why another ?

and you said we should agree to agree not
we agree to disagree http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

BuzzU
04-27-2005, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BuzzU:
I was on topic. You just didn't get the answers you wanted.

Topic is about whether F6 external padlock should and or could be given a selector switch, and how application of such a feature makes external "radar" and locking of other planes a mute issue.

(Padlock in general, mouse use, trackIR, hat use, external vs. internal play, what is real and what is not, in relation to the above irrelavent. Only made so by those wishing others conform to "their" obviously "correct" and "superior" choice of play options be they arcade or full real. My precursor in the original post hoping to avoid those who seek self worth by trying to impress upon others their choices.)

The point of this not to hear others toot their own horns to either "convert or debunk" how others play......Yet to bridge the gap between players if even the slightest bit. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

When you make staements like this:

"Those wanting full real most often having TrackIR naturally stating it gives them no advantage .."

Expect to get an response on an open forum.

btw..See if you can make one post without insults. I didn't give you any.

LEXX_Luthor
04-27-2005, 05:17 PM
I *think* I am following this now. Okay, Padlock should always be available, but with limited Padlock Range, because we have simmers/simmerettes who cannot use Mouse View and they don't have TrakIR. As an experienced Mouse Look user, I think I have "advantage" over the old flight sim Padlock tool, so Padlock has no advantage...at least if the range is limited.

I may even claim that Mouse View has advantage over TrakIR, at least if mouse sensitivity is increased in the game Input Menu. Having never tried TrakIR, I can't say this and Be Sure.

LEBillfish
04-27-2005, 11:03 PM
Initiating post corrected....Better?

Te_Vigo
04-28-2005, 09:42 AM
mmmmmm
maybe without the trying to convert others bit...it would be betterer.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Fehler
04-30-2005, 03:12 AM
Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
I may even claim that Mouse View has advantage over TrakIR, at least if mouse sensitivity is increased in the game Input Menu. Having never tried TrakIR, I can't say this and Be Sure.

There is really only one advantage of TrackIR over mouse view. It frees up your hand that you use so you can do stuff with it instead of using your hand to look around.

You cant track a plane any easier if you are good with a mouse or a HAT emulating a mouse.

I migrated to TrackIR a few months ago. I used to use a HAT mouse emulation and did fine in scissors fighting, finding targets, etc. I used the green mystical triangle when I first started playing and found it less challenging. I would merely scan the area quickly and click the hell out of the paddlock button. If it locked on something, there was the bad guy. No challenge to me.

BUT that is my opinion. And my opinion only counts for me. I fly the game in that manner and I do so because I bought it, and that is the way I have fun.

Even in no pit servers, if I fly them, I stay in the pit and dont use externals nor paddlock. Because that is the way I like to play.

More options, like the one suggested by Billfish, only add more spice to the game. So that cant be bad. The whole idea of the game is to create enjoyment for one's self, correct? So the more options, the more customization, thus the better the "Fun factor."

Oh, and Lexx, dont kid yourself. It is easier to see with two eyes and have a larger field of vision than the game depicts. Real pilots got jumped because they didnt look around as much as they should have, not because it was harder to see in real life than it is in the sim. In the sim, your field of vision is WORSE than real life.

Dont believe me? Go get a big cardboard box and cut out a square that would give you about 90 degrees of vision when you look through it. Mount that box on your head and go driving around.

Before you do, make sure your car insurance is up to date, because you will be getting into an accident pretty quick. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Then, come back and say it is easier to see in the game than in real life. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The game is a wonderful piece of software, but until we have total virtual reality gaming, it will still only be a 2d representation of a 3d world. All the fancy graphics are for is to fool the brain into visualizing depth and peripheral vision. As real as can be with technological constraints? You bet! Great game! EASIER than real life? Ummm, no way!