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Locutis_NJG88
06-30-2005, 02:26 PM
I have been flying the p- 63 for a considerable time now. I have noticed what I believe is an unrealistic damage scenario that I would like to discuss. I have experienced this more than 5 flights in a row. Here is the scenario I think is unrealistic.

I am in combat and I receive a snap shot of maybe one or two rounds of machine gun fire that only takes out my gun sight. This uber snap shot is usually deflective or in other words I€m not taking a shot in the tail, I€m turn fighting with an enemy plane. I don€t seem to get any canopy damage, my instruments are all fine and my aircraft doesn€t vibrate or jump like it has been hit with a 108 round all I hear is a little €œPOCK€. The plane flies with no signs of damage accept a totally useless gun site and totally altered convergence and cannon angle. A single round is the only audible signal I have succumbed to what I am feeling is a damage bug.

Now I understand that this scenario is possible if a round pierced the canopy and hit the gun site but this would not affect the convergence and cannon round trajectory. It would also typically produce some other signs of damage. Additionally if an aircraft was hit really hard the vibration might shake the **** out of the site but again this €œfeels€ like a single machine gun round, sounds like it and NEVER produces any other damage that I can feel at the stick. I feel this is a bug. I know there isn€t a lot of real world data on the topic of gun site survivability but it doesn€t seem out of the question to tweak that damage feature out a tad does it?

The other thing I have noticed is that it seems to turn better and even sharper with the drop tank on. I have been experimenting with this and many times I have been turn fighting with the tank on only to remember that I should have dropped it long ago. When I drop the tank I lose significant authority on right and left hand turns and I feel like the plane is sluggishly pivoting on its balance point. Since this isn€t a very formal test of this bug I invite anyone to try this out and see for your self. Take a 63 with 25% fuel+ single 75gal drop tank. Now turn it into as tight a corner as you can and then drop the tank. Many times the A/c actually feels like I have ADDED a drop tank or two on the outboard wing areas instead of releasing the tanks. Some of you actually commented on it when you noticed I was spinning out of control then recovering to level flight and spinning out of control again. This cannot be how the aircraft flew otherwise no one would have survived.

Regards to you all S!

Locutis_NJG88
06-30-2005, 02:26 PM
I have been flying the p- 63 for a considerable time now. I have noticed what I believe is an unrealistic damage scenario that I would like to discuss. I have experienced this more than 5 flights in a row. Here is the scenario I think is unrealistic.

I am in combat and I receive a snap shot of maybe one or two rounds of machine gun fire that only takes out my gun sight. This uber snap shot is usually deflective or in other words I€m not taking a shot in the tail, I€m turn fighting with an enemy plane. I don€t seem to get any canopy damage, my instruments are all fine and my aircraft doesn€t vibrate or jump like it has been hit with a 108 round all I hear is a little €œPOCK€. The plane flies with no signs of damage accept a totally useless gun site and totally altered convergence and cannon angle. A single round is the only audible signal I have succumbed to what I am feeling is a damage bug.

Now I understand that this scenario is possible if a round pierced the canopy and hit the gun site but this would not affect the convergence and cannon round trajectory. It would also typically produce some other signs of damage. Additionally if an aircraft was hit really hard the vibration might shake the **** out of the site but again this €œfeels€ like a single machine gun round, sounds like it and NEVER produces any other damage that I can feel at the stick. I feel this is a bug. I know there isn€t a lot of real world data on the topic of gun site survivability but it doesn€t seem out of the question to tweak that damage feature out a tad does it?

The other thing I have noticed is that it seems to turn better and even sharper with the drop tank on. I have been experimenting with this and many times I have been turn fighting with the tank on only to remember that I should have dropped it long ago. When I drop the tank I lose significant authority on right and left hand turns and I feel like the plane is sluggishly pivoting on its balance point. Since this isn€t a very formal test of this bug I invite anyone to try this out and see for your self. Take a 63 with 25% fuel+ single 75gal drop tank. Now turn it into as tight a corner as you can and then drop the tank. Many times the A/c actually feels like I have ADDED a drop tank or two on the outboard wing areas instead of releasing the tanks. Some of you actually commented on it when you noticed I was spinning out of control then recovering to level flight and spinning out of control again. This cannot be how the aircraft flew otherwise no one would have survived.

Regards to you all S!

lbhskier37
06-30-2005, 02:33 PM
This gunsight bug used to be present on the FWs. I don't think the convergence really gets messed up, it just seems like it because you don't have a good reference point with the sight out. It got to the point that I would stick a piece of gum on my screen when I flew the FW because the gunsight was always falling off. TRy to get a track of it and submit it to Oleg, hopefully this will get fixed.

Locutis_NJG88
06-30-2005, 03:27 PM
Thanks, you might be right but I noiticed that the nose cannon is actually shooting off to a new angle. ITs a def bug though. Although its nto as serious as the drop tank issue

NonWonderDog
06-30-2005, 04:18 PM
The drop tank issue would be serious, but I'm not seeing it. I tested stall speed and max sustained turn with 0, 1, 2, and 3 drop tanks and 25% fuel on the Crimea map. The results are below. I used FB View+ to output devicelink data onto the screen. To get stall speed, I found the miniumum speed that would allow me to sustain 1.00 G. To get turn times I turned as hard as I could without losing airspeed and let FB View+ compute the 360 degree turn time. I have also included the approximate speed at which I found the maximum sustained turn rate.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
# Tanks Stall Speed Turn time Turn speed
________________________________________________
0 169 km/h 17 s 330 km/h
1 173 km/h 19 s 300 km/h
2 178 km/h 20 s 300 km/h
3 183 km/h 22 s 300 km/h
</pre>

- I'm not entirely sure about turn times and speeds, but it should be good enough to spot a trend.

- I did the 0-tanks tests after simply dropping the tanks. The results seemed to be identical whether I started with 1, 2, or 3 tanks.

- I *think* that the P-63 pulls fuel directly from the drop tanks, but if it doesn't the 0-tank data will not necessarily be at 25% fuel. I just thought of that now, but it doesn't seem worth it to do another test.

CzechTexan
07-01-2005, 06:25 AM
I've noticed this too. The gunsight issue needs to be resolved as it's definately a bug.

Badsight.
07-01-2005, 03:35 PM
if you take a Mk108 hit anywhere near the cockpit , be thankfull all you lose is the Gunsite

fact is the P-63 has had a Complete BS joke DM that lets it fly & fight on way after it should hav been turned into another kill/points for the people who get hits on them

losing the gunsite a tad eaisly is a SMALL price to pay for such overmoddeling in plane strength

the only reason the cries about this are not louder is that its not a highly used A/C

if it had a easy-to-hit with 20mm cannon in the nose the useage online this plane gets would soar 1000%

so would the threads/posts pointing out its DM

RedDeth
07-02-2005, 12:56 AM
badsight he isnt talking about cannon rounds. hes talking about getting hit with machine gun fire.

AerialTarget
07-02-2005, 02:03 AM
Moreover, it's only fair that it can take a lot of damage when its thirty seven millimeter cannon does almost no damage. Neither one's realistic, but you can't complain that it's not fair.

msalama
07-02-2005, 11:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">...when its thirty seven millimeter cannon does almost no damage. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

?

It does a s**tload of damage if you use it correctly. But hard to operate accurately - yeah well, that's what the b1tch really & truly is...

AerialTarget
07-03-2005, 01:39 PM
Oh, no you don't! Don't you dare presume about my gunnery. The fact is that I've made many hits with the thirty seven millimeter, and yet have never caused structural damage with it. The German cannon, on the other hand, often splits airplanes in half (as it should).

VW-IceFire
07-03-2005, 02:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AerialTarget:
Oh, no you don't! Don't you dare presume about my gunnery. The fact is that I've made many hits with the thirty seven millimeter, and yet have never caused structural damage with it. The German cannon, on the other hand, often splits airplanes in half (as it should). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The problem is related to netcode. Some hits don't get counted. I understand there was some effort to ensure that this wasn't as much of an issue with 4.01 but I'm not sure if it was resolved completely. All guns loose some bullets along the way...but it doesn't mean too much difference with a rapid fire weapon. The MK108 has the same issue - if you hit with just a single round, it may not count (I've had it happen to me where I was hit and suffered no ill effects a'tall). But the MK108 fires so rapidly that a sucession of shots will definately count.

As for the DM, I haven't really tested it, and I rarely get shot at in the P-63C as its so fast...but it seems to have been resolved mostly.

The engine is vulnerable and the rest of the plane is about as sturdy as a Mustang.

Badsight.
07-03-2005, 04:17 PM
when i get the P-63 cannon to connect , 8/10 times it totally cuts either a tail or wing off

the other 2 times its like WTF !

AerialTarget
07-04-2005, 02:57 AM
Well, I must have very bad luck, because none of my hits have ever done structural damage, like removing wings and tails and such. Of course, the airplane isn't my regular ride, so I've only made a few dozen thirty seven millimeter hits, but I think out of a few dozen hits, I should see at least one structural failure!

VW-IceFire
07-04-2005, 02:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AerialTarget:
Well, I must have very bad luck, because none of my hits have ever done structural damage, like removing wings and tails and such. Of course, the airplane isn't my regular ride, so I've only made a few dozen thirty seven millimeter hits, but I think out of a few dozen hits, I should see at least one structural failure! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
It happens. Are you'r experiences from 3.04 or 4.01. I *think* it seems to connect harder now than before...and thus more structural damage.

I must test this theory.

stathem
07-04-2005, 02:37 PM
In gg (3.04, a while ago) I once hit a Bf-110 with 2 clearly observable 37mm rounds from a P-39 in a deflection shot (and 60+ 50cal rounds, from the stats).

The 110 pilot flew home with his feet up, smoking a cigar...

Locutis_NJG88
07-12-2005, 05:34 PM
Retaking the thread back to its inception now....

NonWonderDog thank you for the testing I would like to continue this with you to resolve what I am seeing in this A/C. I have been testing it as well and what i found was similar but not identicle. The only issues are when the one tank is dropped and I think I could reproduce it. I am not saying that I have stall speed changes but stability cxhnges to a larger degree. it "feels" like weight has shifted grossly to the read of the a/c, now there should be some shift but randomly the shift causes a totallly unstable effect like I am being hit on a wingtip or something crazy. Hienz can vouch for this as he saw me spinning wildly on one occasion without and damage...

As far as the gunsite issue its a bug. A single machine gun round should nto do that kind of Damage. A single 108 yes and when I get hit in the cockpit thats not what happens I just die or everything is destroyed int he canopy and my pilot is injured and yes thats a tad undermodeled to me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

As far as the netcode comment is concerned I cant accept that as the root cause becasue this is what I see when the 37 MM passes through a target. I see the shot hit the plane and a small chunk comes out like I hit it with a machine gun. No smoke, no explosion thats it and it flies away. Other times I hear a wingman say "oh nice hit!" and I think I've missed. I think what I am experiencing is random rounds not exploding

MLudner
07-12-2005, 05:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AerialTarget:
Oh, no you don't! Don't you dare presume about my gunnery. The fact is that I've made many hits with the thirty seven millimeter, and yet have never caused structural damage with it. The German cannon, on the other hand, often splits airplanes in half (as it should). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, the first time I flew an Aircobra in this game I put myself up against a Stuka. I passed under it, then turned onto its tail. At nearly 500 meters I decided to fire a quick burst, not expecting much at that range but to maybe ding him a little and if blind lucky kill his dorsal gunner.
The Stuka instantaneously disintegrated.
I blinked, then grinned and commented, "Oh, yeah! That's right: the Aircobra has a 37mm canon in the nose. TAKE THAT, you NAZI (expletive deleted)!"
I was in love with Aircobra instantly.

VW-IceFire
07-12-2005, 07:44 PM
Right, I forgot to test this behavior.

To be honest, I rarely get hit with the P-63C...

ruf9ii
07-13-2005, 03:24 AM
erm, doesnt the 37mm have AP and HE rounds one after the other? (AP, HE, AP, HE etc etc).

when the AP hits a plane it only makes a little hit like an MG, but without the 'flash' of metal on metal. recall the stuka with the 2 underslung flak cannons. these fire only AP and exactly the same effect is visible when the round hits a plane.

i think the way to tell with the cobrais that the shot with the tracer component is the HE one.

u can still take off wings and stuff with the AP, but it isnt as common. its more likely to take out engines and internal components.