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TheCrux
09-17-2008, 08:43 AM
Just hooked up my new Saitek Aviator stick. Other than it being a bit less ergonomically comfortable than my heretofore favorite MS Sidewinder(s) it's a good accurate stick. Problem though when I attempt to use the right hand throttle for elevator trim: The default profile is so sensitive that it's nearly impossible to use...I re-accepted keyboard key trim with open arms. I then installed the very nice 'Joy Control' from M4Today but am totally stymied in my attempts to create a smooth fine ( as opposed to course [sic, deliberate misspelling to defeat censor ] ) joy axis that begins in the center of travel and goes outward in either direction but no matter where I place the slider prior to opening the program, it wants to begin at either the very top, or very bottom of the linear graph/curve. I've tried all manner of creative profiles to try to "fool" the program into doing what I want, but this one is quite adamant about sticking to the program.

Anybody successfully mappped out "trim on a slider"? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Many thanks,
TR

TheCrux
09-17-2008, 08:43 AM
Just hooked up my new Saitek Aviator stick. Other than it being a bit less ergonomically comfortable than my heretofore favorite MS Sidewinder(s) it's a good accurate stick. Problem though when I attempt to use the right hand throttle for elevator trim: The default profile is so sensitive that it's nearly impossible to use...I re-accepted keyboard key trim with open arms. I then installed the very nice 'Joy Control' from M4Today but am totally stymied in my attempts to create a smooth fine ( as opposed to course [sic, deliberate misspelling to defeat censor ] ) joy axis that begins in the center of travel and goes outward in either direction but no matter where I place the slider prior to opening the program, it wants to begin at either the very top, or very bottom of the linear graph/curve. I've tried all manner of creative profiles to try to "fool" the program into doing what I want, but this one is quite adamant about sticking to the program.

Anybody successfully mappped out "trim on a slider"? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Many thanks,
TR

Stingray333
09-17-2008, 09:14 AM
Howdy TheCrux,

I've got my trim mapped to both the throttle controls on the saitek aviator in IL-2 . They are a little sensitive, but once I got used to it I found it ok to control. I mapped it "reverse" than what it wanted to, as that just seemed more natural to me (when assigning the axis you can slide it in the opposite direction to reverse it). I also have the arrow keys set on the keyboard to adjust the trim in fine increments. Get rid of that cntrl+arrow key trim nonsense if you haven't already, you aren't going to every fly the primary controls with the arrow keys if you have a stick, so map the trim to the arrow keys.

Its also pretty handy to have the neutralize trim keys set to something handy so you can reset the trim if it gets buggered.

You shouldn't have to "fool" IL-2 into having the trim mapped so that center of the throttle movement is in the center of the trim and so forth, it should be set that way automatically. To make sure, put the trim to the full range of movement, the nose should either go up or down, now put the throttle to the full opposite position, the nose should go in the opposite direction, and trimming for level flight is somewhere in the middle. Keep in mind that placing the elevator trim in exactly the center of the throttles movement will not equal level flight as the plane requires some trim to fly level. An exercise to try is to attempt a couple of landings using the elevator trim instead of the primary elevator control (still using rudder and roll on the stick).

To get it a little less sensitive, use IL-2 joy control and maybe experiment with set a filter of around 20 or 30 and then take all the sliders down to 30-40. I think I've got mine on a linear ramp from 70-100 using IL2 Joy control. They are pretty sensitive for sure, but I don't find it too bad,

Stingray

Urufu_Shinjiro
09-17-2008, 09:47 AM
As stingray says, get il2 joycontrol or il2sticks and use that to adjust all your input curves to your liking.

M_Gunz
09-17-2008, 10:21 AM
What happens if you edit the conf.ini profile in NotePad?
Granted that the hard part is identifying the axis in conf.ini.

TheCrux
09-17-2008, 07:38 PM
Alright, thanks and all, but as I have said, I do have a Joy Control program that lets one adjusts curves and sensitivity. The problem here is that setting trim using a throttle axis ( unlike the 3 primary flight controls ) is that I cannot begin with the trim in the center of the graph. That's where it needs to be so that I may set trim curves nose up or down from there. I realize one is not going to fly with with the trim dead center, but I do need a theoretical center to work from. ( just like the primary flight controls that sit at the centerof there respective travels )

Stingray, I will try the filtering idea. Since I may have to begin from either end of the curve and "hunt" for the center while flying, lower sensitivity will make me less likely to porpoise wildly while doing so.

Bearcat99
09-17-2008, 09:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
What happens if you edit the conf.ini profile in NotePad?
Granted that the hard part is identifying the axis in conf.ini. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

With il2joy there is no hard part.

M_Gunz
09-17-2008, 09:57 PM
Crux seems to have hit on one, why I asked what I did is part of troubleshoot.

Stingray333
09-17-2008, 10:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheCrux:
Stingray, I will try the filtering idea. Since I may have to begin from either end of the curve and "hunt" for the center while flying, lower sensitivity will make me less likely to porpoise wildly while doing so. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am pretty sure that the axis is set the way you want by default, but it just feels sensitive. You can test it out for sure by doing the experiment I alluded to in my post above: fly along level, push trim lever to 100% position, see if nose goes up or down. Put trim lever to the fully opposite position, nose should go in the opposite direction. Now the "center" is somewhere in between. Keeping in mind that the "center" you are looking for so that the plane flies level will vary with airspeed, altitude, attitude, flaps up or down, etc. Also do the exercise of flying only with the elevator trim.. put the nose down a bit, pull it up into a climb, now hold the climb angle, now back to level flight, etc. Learn how your input into the trim effects your planes attitude, and learn to control it using only the trim.

Soon it becomes second nature, where you can tell you need to adjust your trim, and how much to adjust it in the middle of a turn during combat, but it takes practice. When I am adjusting it on the Saitek throttle lever,I am moving it by microscopic increments, its not a control that you throw about with reckless abandon, its all very fine gentle touch. The throttle lever arm movement range in total covers only about 1.5 inches, and it has to cover the range of the trim in this small amount of movement. The range you will normally fly with is a very small portion of that total movement, so a very gentle touch, not full wildly oscillating movements.

You are always going to have to "hunt" for the right setting to some extent, especially when first getting into the air. Eventually you will learn whether you want a certain plane nose heavy, or tail heavy at take off and can adjust accordingly on the ground, then when you take off you just adjust as you fly. One thing I do is to try to get my wheels off the ground using only the elevator trim rather than the stick, that way I know that my angle of attack is purely being controlled by the trim.

When hunting for the right trim setting, use very slight, very controlled movements and remember that there will be a slight delay while the plane reacts to the new trim setting, a steady hand should be all it takes.

In real cockpits the trim wheels have number indicators on them, so the pilot would know as part of the take off procedure: Trim nose heavy 5 clicks, etc. Some people I fly with set the initial trim using the keyboard (10 clicks tail heavy, etc when starting)

Stingray

Afterhours
09-18-2008, 09:54 PM
I always used my stick with as-installed default settings.

As for trim I just have it set so I can adjust it with some keyboard buttons, click, click, easy as pie.

If I go fast or slow I trim out the aircraft so I don't have to hold the stick and it saves effort and reduces pilot fatigue.

If you fiddle with trim on a slider during combat, then you are a newb.

WTE_Galway
09-18-2008, 10:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Afterhours:


If you fiddle with trim on a slider during combat, then you are a newb. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well considering that putting trim on a slider was regarded as a cheat for a long while and was probably the cause of the biggest flame wars ever on this forum I am wondering if you are as much a new player as you claim?

Trim on a slider was more controversial even then the "FW190 bar" and "P51 won the war so 0.50 cal is porked" threads at the time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

M_Gunz
09-18-2008, 11:01 PM
LOL! Bud Anderson, WWII Ace describes using trim wheels during combat --

here's the chapter, you can buy the book. (http://www.cebudanderson.com/ch1.htm)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> He is falling away now, and I flop the nose over and go after him hard. We are very high by this time, six miles and then some, and falling very, very fast. The Messerschmitt had a head start, plummeting out of my range, but I'm closing up quickly. Then he flattens out and comes around hard to the left and starts climbing again, as if he wants to come at me head on. Suddenly we're right back where we started.

A lot of this is just instinct now. Things are happening too fast to think everything out. You steer with your right hand and feet. The right hand also triggers the guns. With your left, you work the throttle, and keep the airplane in trim, which is easier to do than describe.

Any airplane with a single propeller produces torque. The more horsepower you have, the more the prop will pull you off to one side. The Mustangs I flew used a 12-cylinder Packard Merlin engine that displaced 1,649 cubic inches. That is 10 times the size of the engine that powers an Indy car. It developed power enough that you never applied full power sitting still on the ground because it would pull the plane's tail up off the runway and the propeller would chew up the concrete. With so much power, you were continually making minor adjustments on the controls to keep the Mustang and its wing-mounted guns pointed straight.

There were three little palm-sized wheels you had to keep fiddling with. They trimmed you up for hands-off level flight. One was for the little trim tab on the tail's rudder, the vertical slab which moves the plane left or right. Another adjusted the tab on the tail's horizontal elevators that raise or lower the nose and help reduce the force you had to apply for hard turning. The third was for aileron trim, to keep your wings level, although you didn't have to fuss much with that one. Your left hand was down there a lot if you were changing speeds, as in combat . . . while at the same time you were making minor adjustments with your feet on the rudder pedals and your hand on the stick. At first it was awkward. But, with experience, it was something you did without thinking, like driving a car and twirling the radio dial.

It's a little unnerving to think about how many things you have to deal with all at once to fly combat.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We've got us a troll with 3+ logins here just to spread BS for new players to step in.

Erkki_M
09-19-2008, 12:04 AM
Trim slider is a.. cheat?

A friend of mine found it so useless(clicking is handier - you can count the times you clicked back and forth so you dont always have to find the position AND you can zero the trims by a press of another button) that he set his RUDDER AXIS on it. Trim and axis in the same slider. Slider is not any faster than click-click trim except when you want (you never want) to change it from extreme to another.

Besides using a Throttle in the first place makes you unable to properly use your mouse while flying. Let alone keyboard. I will never buy one...

tagTaken2
09-19-2008, 03:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erkki_M:
Trim slider is a.. cheat?


Besides using a Throttle in the first place makes you unable to properly use your mouse while flying. Let alone keyboard. I will never buy one... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your loss. I use my slider constantly.

Chris0382
09-19-2008, 04:39 AM
Having my elevator trim set to my main throttle axis on my X-52, I use trim almost as much as pitch. And a touch of flaps-down makes for a great gun platform cancelling out the dip effect when using MG's or cannons.

arthursmedley
09-19-2008, 05:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Afterhours:


If you fiddle with trim on a slider during combat, then you are a newb. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm....interesting! Try flying Pony more, you might change your mind http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Afterhours
09-19-2008, 05:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
LOL! Bud Anderson, WWII Ace describes using trim wheels during combat --
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uhhh. Sorry, flying a REAL aircraft does not have anything to do with flying the aircraft in this flight sim....

The typical newb finds all kinds of uneccessary things to fiddle with, good luck charms that others have told him are the way to go. Things he thinks he needs to do well in this sim when all he actually needs is a brain.

Truth is, the FEWER things you give yourself to do in the heat of combat, the better off you are. This SHOULD be common sense.

WWII TACTICS work very well in this sim, but tactics have nothing to do with controling your VIRTUAL aircraft. You are sitting in a chair at a desk.

Having track IR crap hanging off your head, having rudder pedals to work, separate throttles and other hobbyist junk, I love it all because then I know you have that many more things that I don't to go wrong. And when it does go wrong, you are out of the game, re-booting or fiddling with some piece of hardware or software junk.

I have the IL2 sim installed with no mods, and one "twisty stick" with a hat-switch, and that is it. I have no software to augment my panning views, no rudder pedals, no track IR, no controls on any slider, no squad and no coms, and I have no latest super duper computer, I am still running an old AGP rig. Video card and drivers are all set to default! Same stick for last seven years.

I set my keyboard buttons the same as I did for EAW and MSCFS.

Because my setup is so simple, I never have to give it a thought, it is all automatic and fast as lightning.

Newbs always ignore the fundamentals because everyone fills their heads with $hit.

Tactics and gunnery are number one for hard servers. Knowing your aircraft and how to fly it are next. All the trendy hardware and software tricks are dead last in importance.

WTE_Ibis
09-19-2008, 05:33 AM
Well thanks for that, I've been doing it all wrong for 7/8 years. Fancy that.
Now that I know, I'll throw all this useless junk in the bin.
Thanks,
Ibis.



.

Bearcat99
09-19-2008, 06:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Alright, thanks and all, but as I have said, I do have a Joy Control program that lets one adjusts curves and sensitivity. The problem here is that setting trim using a throttle axis ( unlike the 3 primary flight controls ) is that I cannot begin with the trim in the center of the graph. That's where it needs to be so that I may set trim curves nose up or down from there. I realize one is not going to fly with with the trim dead center, but I do need a theoretical center to work from. ( just like the primary flight controls that sit at the centerof there respective travels ) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I see what your problem is now.. The X-45 has detents in the center the X-52s do not. I always wondered why they changed that.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
LOL! Bud Anderson, WWII Ace describes using trim wheels during combat --
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Afterhours:
Uhhh. Sorry, flying a REAL aircraft does not have anything to do with flying the aircraft in this flight sim.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Man you are talking out the side of your neck... First off flying a real aircraft does have quite a bit to do with flying in this sim if a similar feature is modeled with some degree of realism in the sim.. that's a fact.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> The typical newb finds all kinds of uneccessary things to fiddle with, good luck charms that others have told him are the way to go. Things he thinks he needs to do well in this sim when all he actually needs is a brain.

Truth is, the FEWER things you give yourself to do in the heat of combat, the better off you are. This SHOULD be common sense.

WWII TACTICS work very well in this sim, but tactics have nothing to do with controling your VIRTUAL aircraft. You are sitting in a chair at a desk. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Again.. sheer nonsense... a feature that is built into the sim is not a "good luck charm", it is a feature.. like... trim. Tactics have EVERYTHING to do with controlling your aircraft. Hiow can you execute any tactics if you cannot control your AC?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Having track IR crap hanging off your head, having rudder pedals to work, separate throttles and other hobbyist junk, I love it all because then I know you have that many more things that I don't to go wrong. And when it does go wrong, you are out of the game, re-booting or fiddling with some piece of hardware or software junk.

I have the IL2 sim installed with no mods, and one "twisty stick" with a hat-switch, and that is it. I have no software to augment my panning views, no rudder pedals, no track IR, no controls on any slider, no squad and no coms, and I have no latest super duper computer, I am still running an old AGP rig. Video card and drivers are all set to default! Same stick for last seven years.

I set my keyboard buttons the same as I did for EAW and MSCFS.

Because my setup is so simple, I never have to give it a thought, it is all automatic and fast as lightning. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here you go with the laces between your teeth again... Actually TIR makes it a lot simpler because you don't have to think about where to move your thumb to look around. As for the mods.. well you are missing the point on the mods.. they arent to enhance your flying.. most of them enhance the immersion or the playing itself.. maps, features etc.. but very little to do with the actual flying of the AC. That is still up to the pilot. You say this assuming that a lot of the peripherals or fetures that other pilots use in the sim go wrong all the time.. they don't... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Newbs always ignore the fundamentals because everyone fills their heads with $hit.

Tactics and gunnery are number one for hard servers. Knowing your aircraft and how to fly it are next. All the trendy hardware and software tricks are dead last in importance. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again using the features available to you in the sim is not $hit.... and tactics are a part of using the plane and all of it's features...

Yeah .. I think you are just fishing because your posts are almost laughable they are so silly.

Stingray333
09-19-2008, 06:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Afterhours:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
LOL! Bud Anderson, WWII Ace describes using trim wheels during combat --
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The typical newb finds all kinds of uneccessary things to fiddle with, good luck charms that others have told him are the way to go. Things he thinks he needs to do well in this sim when all he actually needs is a brain.

I have the IL2 sim installed with no mods, and one "twisty stick" with a hat-switch, and that is it. I have no software to augment my panning views, no rudder pedals, no track IR, no controls on any slider, no squad and no coms, and I have no latest super duper computer, I am still running an old AGP rig. Video card and drivers are all set to default! Same stick for last seven years.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You use a twisty stick and a hat switch? That is simply way too many things to fiddle with. Why don't you use your own advice and fly with the keyboard only and leave us n00bs alone with our new fangled gadgets and gizmos. I imagine the next forum post from you will read something like ".... wait you n00bs fly with the *entire* keyboard? My keyboard has only the homerow you n00bs".

Having such simplified controls must really make things a lot easier for you to get up and yell at those pesky kids to get off your lawn while flying as well.

F19_Orheim
09-19-2008, 07:21 AM
*popcorn*

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

FoolTrottel
09-19-2008, 10:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Afterhours:
(...) If you fiddle with trim on a slider during combat, then you are a newb. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm a newb, enjoying the game, with TIR, Sliders, Pedals, FFB, Surround Sound. Having lotsa fun.

You must be an ACE. Are you having fun?

UgoRipley
09-19-2008, 02:52 PM
Another n00b here !
I only have a C-64 joystick. No buttons.
ROFL !!

M_Gunz
09-19-2008, 03:23 PM
The actual pilots fiddled with trim on rotaries http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif during all stages.
But what did they know?

Afterhours
09-20-2008, 08:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
The actual pilots fiddled with trim on rotaries http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif during all stages.
But what did they know? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

More newbs thinking that flying a real aircraft has anything to do with flying this sim...........


There has been all kinds of alleged "cheats" in this sim. I have never used any of them, they are a waste of time. Trim on a slider, or for a long time "prop pitch" adjusting was even considered a cheat.

If some newb wants to give himself that much more to do by fiddliing with his trim and prop-pitch or whatever during combat, that makes me happy, he will be that much easier to beat.

I install the sim and my stick with default settings and learn how to fly that.

In the heat of a dogfight, I certainly want as little to do as possible.
The Germans in WWII understood this concept, making many parameters of engine control on the FW190 automatic, where they were manual on most Allied aircraft.

If you are in a fight where the fraction of 1% performance you gain by trimming and prop pitch or some other adjustment has to make the difference, then you are not a very good tactician.

Newbs need good luck charms and amulets like trim, prop-pitch, track IR, and other things to give them confidence.
Or when they get shot down they like to blame it on the fact that they DONT have track IR, or this or that to make themselves feel better about it.

In this sim I use trim to make me comfortable when traveling, so I don't have to hold the stick at the speed I am cruising at, that is it's best use.

If I was flying a REAL fighter in combat in WWII I may do something else, but how the he11 would I know?

M_Gunz
09-20-2008, 11:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Afterhours:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
The actual pilots fiddled with trim on rotaries http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif during all stages.
But what did they know? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

More newbs thinking that flying a real aircraft has anything to do with flying this sim........... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

First you go on about realism and later when it suits you, you change your lame tune.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> In this sim I use trim to make me comfortable when traveling, so I don't have to hold the stick at the speed I am cruising at, that is it's best use. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But nobody else should do different or they're --- what did you say above? Huh?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> If I was flying a REAL fighter in combat in WWII I may do something else, but how the he11 would I know? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't forget that. Fact is YOU DON'T KNOW.

M_Gunz
09-20-2008, 11:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Afterhours:
If you fiddle with trim on a slider during combat, then you are a newb. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh yeah, here's what you posted.

thefruitbat
09-20-2008, 03:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Afterhours:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
LOL! Bud Anderson, WWII Ace describes using trim wheels during combat --
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uhhh. Sorry, flying a REAL aircraft does not have anything to do with flying the aircraft in this flight sim....

The typical newb finds all kinds of uneccessary things to fiddle with, good luck charms that others have told him are the way to go. Things he thinks he needs to do well in this sim when all he actually needs is a brain.

Truth is, the FEWER things you give yourself to do in the heat of combat, the better off you are. This SHOULD be common sense.

WWII TACTICS work very well in this sim, but tactics have nothing to do with controling your VIRTUAL aircraft. You are sitting in a chair at a desk.

Having track IR crap hanging off your head, having rudder pedals to work, separate throttles and other hobbyist junk, I love it all because then I know you have that many more things that I don't to go wrong. And when it does go wrong, you are out of the game, re-booting or fiddling with some piece of hardware or software junk.

I have the IL2 sim installed with no mods, and one "twisty stick" with a hat-switch, and that is it. I have no software to augment my panning views, no rudder pedals, no track IR, no controls on any slider, no squad and no coms, and I have no latest super duper computer, I am still running an old AGP rig. Video card and drivers are all set to default! Same stick for last seven years.

I set my keyboard buttons the same as I did for EAW and MSCFS.

Because my setup is so simple, I never have to give it a thought, it is all automatic and fast as lightning.

Newbs always ignore the fundamentals because everyone fills their heads with $hit.

Tactics and gunnery are number one for hard servers. Knowing your aircraft and how to fly it are next. All the trendy hardware and software tricks are dead last in importance. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks mate, you've made my day reading this entertainment.

While you do actually touch on some truth in the last sentence, despite getting 1 & 2 the wrong way round, as you can't get to shoot or execute tactics unless you know your aircraft and how to fly it, You are also right, in that no equipment will give this knowledge to you.

However you are epically wrong in beliving that no equipment is better in translating this knowledge and executing it, than your keyboard and twistick.

The same setup is what i learnt to play il2 on when thew original came out. Now i have extras, and while i don't need them, they do help, fact. But i do agree to some extent, that they are not anymore helpful to a new player than your setup, as you have to know what you are trying to do, before having the buttons easily accessible makes a difference.

Essentailly all a setup is, is having a set number of functions mapped to certain buttons, whether keyboard, joystick or whatever.

once you have learnt your setup, and use it insticntively, all good. I've had various diff setups over the years, and within a week or two its easy to transpose to another setup, if you so decide, all that is important is that you know what to press and where, to acheive the desired result.

Now if you seriously think that having to reach for the keyboard is just as easy as moving a finger slightly to feel a button on the, say throttle you are already holding, or using a POV, is as easy as using your head to look around, something which i can assure you i have been doing since, well certainly as long as i can remember, can't vouch for the first 2 years of my life though, you are clearly mistaken.

Just because you are used to your system, and have been using for 7 years, doesn't mean its the best, it just shows a lack of any forward thinking on your part.

100 years ago, you would of looked at a car, and said, no point, we have horse and coaches, whats the point, they'll never catch on....

fruitbat

Afterhours
09-20-2008, 09:23 PM
I have all the controls I need for combat right on my twisty stick, I don't have to move my hands or go to the keyboard in the heat of a dogfight.

I have trim and other controls that I don't use during combat on the keyboard.

Because I don't have to move my hands off the stick at all during a dogfight or some other busy time, it is a huge advantage. Also being able to have both hands on the stick at all times and not fiddling with throttles or some other junk makes the stick more stable.

I doesn't get any simpler than that.....

kingtiger2008
09-21-2008, 01:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Afterhours:
I have all the controls I need for combat right on my twisty stick, I don't have to move my hands or go to the keyboard in the heat of a dogfight.

I have trim and other controls that I don't use during combat on the keyboard.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Then may i know what your joystick setting is and what's your favourite aicraft? Because i think many aircrafts can not be controlled effectively without trim in a dogfight, especially in a hard turn at low speed.

Example, with a La-7 you don't need trim instantly in a dogfight, but with my beloved P-51 problem is: trim or die. I can not believe that anyone can control it without trim, unless you have a real life long stick and a very smooth input setting.

UgoRipley
09-21-2008, 02:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Afterhours:
I have all the controls I need for combat right on my twisty stick, I don't have to move my hands or go to the keyboard in the heat of a dogfight.
I have trim and other controls that I don't use during combat on the keyboard.
Because I don't have to move my hands off the stick at all during a dogfight or some other busy time, it is a huge advantage. Also being able to have both hands on the stick at all times and not fiddling with throttles or some other junk makes the stick more stable.
I doesn't get any simpler than that..... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
We all have all the controls we need for combat on our different setups. In the heat of the dogfight generally we don't move hands, we barely move some fingertips at most, well knowing where and what to press.
We "fiddle" with our throttles because it's a huge advantage in having lots of buttons and rotaries in both hands, you see, you got 10 fingers, use them.
And by the way, check your joystick's position. I can see you having a hard time trying to make it more stable holding it with both hands and in the same time controlling the "twist" action...wow gives me shivers...my setup doesn't move at all, don't need to "hold it" in place. Oh, yes, there are rudders too, I have Simpeds, but there are cheaper ones around, or does it also fit in your "junk" category ??

If you can afford it, go that way, you will like it eventually, and it will make your simming experience much more interesting.
But don't blame other people just because they decided to be a bit more "serious" about their hobby.

We all started with a joystick, then we evolved.

Fehler
09-21-2008, 02:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kingtiger2008:
...unless you have a real life long stick and a very smooth input setting. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can say this. I have been using my U-joint full throw stick for two days now and immediately I noticed how smooth everything is. There is a huge advantage of a full throw stick as opposed to a short stick... it's much more instinctive and precise. I can do things I had always thought I should be able to do with my X-45. I am still debating whether or not to add self centering, but even without it, you just automatically feel where the center is.

Now, about this other guys babble... In some ways he actually has a point. When entering a fight, you should be trimmed for the speed you enter. BUT (And I do say but) what happens when your speed changes?

If you are pitch down for high speed when you enter, and you have to scrub even a little speed, you begin to fight the centering force of the stick just to fly level. So I wonder how mister PixelHartmann deals with that.

M_Gunz
09-21-2008, 03:46 AM
He writes a new li.. errr, troll post is how.

Fehler! Good news about the stick! Even with it, you still fight the trim state?
How much is the problem short-throw joystick and how much does the FM punish poor trim?

I got along the first three years with a Logitech 3D Pro POS and keyboard. Wore it out
and got an X-52 which is much nicer. Got the webcam but haven't used Cachya yet.. old
habits and all.

Some day I'll use the better computer cheat. I must be weak since I don't run on a 1Gz
Athlon or less!

Fehler
09-21-2008, 05:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
He writes a new li.. errr, troll post is how.

Fehler! Good news about the stick! Even with it, you still fight the trim state?
How much is the problem short-throw joystick and how much does the FM punish poor trim?

I got along the first three years with a Logitech 3D Pro POS and keyboard. Wore it out
and got an X-52 which is much nicer. Got the webcam but haven't used Cachya yet.. old
habits and all.

Some day I'll use the better computer cheat. I must be weak since I don't run on a 1Gz
Athlon or less! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Max, I still trim. Guess I'm a cheater at heart... Trimming airplanes, how foolish!

I havent done any speed tests yet to determine how the FM punishes an out-of-trim plane, but I did add a 10-turn pot for elevator trim to the equasion. Mine doesnt have a centering detent, so I have to remember how many times I actually turned it when I am trying to go back to neutral. (That's a pain in the a$$)

Yes, I too have all the cheating gadgets... TIR, trim wheels, even rudder pedals! Perhaps I will break out that old Commador64 and learn to fly like the experten, using only 4 keys and the spacebar on my keyboard!

Bearcat99
09-21-2008, 05:20 AM
Was that one of those pricey uniball sticks Ihavebeen readng about? Got pics? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

M_Gunz
09-21-2008, 05:27 AM
I would look for difference in climb and how fast you accelerate.
Especially the latter. If you aren't trimmed then acceleration will suffer more or less with
a regular stick and much depending on your stick sliders as I discovered and posted about years
ago now. CHDT did the same and some others, sliders all high had less bleed problems in turns
and pitch-up maneuvers. Less, not none.

Trim is a realism feature with no option toggle. If there was one then BS-boy would be touting
trim use loudly.

When I read from pilot training sites, being out of trim is a Bad Thing.

Fehler
09-21-2008, 05:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
Was that one of those pricey uniball sticks Ihavebeen readng about? Got pics? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No Bear, This is one is homemade; made from the U-joint of a car utilizing Hall Effect sensors and a Bodnar BU0836 controller. It's sweet! I will post some pics of the whole "Cheater's chair" when I am completely finished. I'm still working on some details, like flaps on a lever, and lots of buttons.

One can never have enough buttons!

M_Gunz
09-21-2008, 05:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
Was that one of those pricey uniball sticks Ihavebeen readng about? Got pics? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A trackball for trim... you could use the neutralize trim key/button with no problem and never
have to find your way back to center. Trackball/thumb-ball has no center, just like mousewheel.
The neutralize trim keys are big unreal but with unreal key/button/wheel trim there's no choice
but it being there. Trim on a slider or rotary (esp multi-turn pots) is far more realistic!

M_Gunz
09-21-2008, 06:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Afterhours:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
LOL! Bud Anderson, WWII Ace describes using trim wheels during combat --
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uhhh. Sorry, flying a REAL aircraft does not have <span class="ev_code_RED">anything</span> to do with flying the aircraft in this flight sim.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We'll all keep that in mind.

thefruitbat
09-21-2008, 03:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Afterhours:
I have all the controls I need for combat right on my twisty stick, I don't have to move my hands or go to the keyboard in the heat of a dogfight.

I have trim and other controls that I don't use during combat on the keyboard.

Because I don't have to move my hands off the stick at all during a dogfight or some other busy time, it is a huge advantage. Also being able to have both hands on the stick at all times and not fiddling with throttles or some other junk makes the stick more stable.

I doesn't get any simpler than that.....

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>Because I don't have to move my hands off the stick at all during a dogfight or some other busy time, it is a huge advantage

so you understand this at least, what don't you understand about this,

I don't have to move my hands ever, period. Combat or no combat, 1 enginge or 4, fuel mix, superchargers etc etc, so i never ever have to fiddle with some junk like a keyboard say http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif

I doesn't get any simpler than that.....

fruitbat