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View Full Version : Hurricans in Burma Theatre vs. Oscars



Terrenceflynn
01-24-2010, 02:19 PM
Out of 140 Hurricanes assigned, 109 were lost to air combat and accidents. A dismal failure.

This again points to the explosive ammo used in the 12.7 mm Ho cannon. The effect was similar to 20mm explosive ammo.

This combat tends to confirm intelligence reports that state that the Hayabusa's machine cannon, though having poor penetrative powers, had significant explosive effect. A Type 1 fighter that he identified as a ZEKE hit 1 st Lt. Roy Klanrud a P-40 pilot of the 35 th FS. According to Klanrud: I knew I was badly shot upI expected another attack which would have been fatal because my elevator and coolant was shot up by a 20mm cannon. Three bullets hit my armor plate and glanced off, clearing out the glass of the canopy on the left side. More than one American fighter pilot hit by 12.7mm explosive rounds thought he had been hit by the larger 20mm round fired by the Japanese Navy's Zero fighter. A partial explanation for this phenomenon is suggested by findings of Britain's Ordnance Board that tested Japanese army 12.7mm ammunition. A 1944 report said: The fuse of the H.E./I. [high explosive/incendiary] shell is probably too sensitive for optimum performance. In tests in India the same type ammunition failed to ignite fuel in a partially filled petrol tin, it was thought because the blast effect was such that any possibility of petrol or petrol vapour being set on fire was nullified because of this. Another report concluded the super-sensitive fuse was likely to explode against an aircraft's wing or fuselage skin before penetrating to a fuel tank. Japanese armor piercing ammunition was found to be effective against certain types of Allied armor at least at close ranges on the order of 100 yards.

Terrenceflynn
01-24-2010, 02:19 PM
Out of 140 Hurricanes assigned, 109 were lost to air combat and accidents. A dismal failure.

This again points to the explosive ammo used in the 12.7 mm Ho cannon. The effect was similar to 20mm explosive ammo.

This combat tends to confirm intelligence reports that state that the Hayabusa's machine cannon, though having poor penetrative powers, had significant explosive effect. A Type 1 fighter that he identified as a ZEKE hit 1 st Lt. Roy Klanrud a P-40 pilot of the 35 th FS. According to Klanrud: I knew I was badly shot upI expected another attack which would have been fatal because my elevator and coolant was shot up by a 20mm cannon. Three bullets hit my armor plate and glanced off, clearing out the glass of the canopy on the left side. More than one American fighter pilot hit by 12.7mm explosive rounds thought he had been hit by the larger 20mm round fired by the Japanese Navy's Zero fighter. A partial explanation for this phenomenon is suggested by findings of Britain's Ordnance Board that tested Japanese army 12.7mm ammunition. A 1944 report said: The fuse of the H.E./I. [high explosive/incendiary] shell is probably too sensitive for optimum performance. In tests in India the same type ammunition failed to ignite fuel in a partially filled petrol tin, it was thought because the blast effect was such that any possibility of petrol or petrol vapour being set on fire was nullified because of this. Another report concluded the super-sensitive fuse was likely to explode against an aircraft's wing or fuselage skin before penetrating to a fuel tank. Japanese armor piercing ammunition was found to be effective against certain types of Allied armor at least at close ranges on the order of 100 yards.

Scolar
01-24-2010, 02:55 PM
How many Oscars were lost in air to air vs the Hurricanes?
How many of those hurricanes were killed by AAA, how long were the hurricanes deployed in Burma.

One simple number on its own isn't very shock worthy at all.

AndyJWest
01-24-2010, 03:06 PM
If the 12.7 mm Ho cannon had an effect 'similar to 20mm explosive ammo' why did the Japanese later use 20 mm cannon? Not that 'similar' presumably?

VXB77016
01-24-2010, 03:48 PM
Your figure includes accidents in a theater that was infamous for its staggering accident rates. Moreover, the Burma air war was a bit of an odd duck. If you look at the various pilot memoirs and interviews from this theater its alway the weather, the jungle, and (a distant third) flak that they focus upon as thier main enemies.

Daiichidoku
01-24-2010, 03:49 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/Daiichidoku/tybn.jpg

trashcanUK
01-24-2010, 04:27 PM
wow, that has to be one of the worst developed theories ever http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif
amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

M_Gunz
01-24-2010, 04:33 PM
Former AVG members have pointed out that the British tactics led to their results.

Waldo.Pepper
01-24-2010, 04:48 PM
Ban this troll finally please!

Sillius_Sodus
01-24-2010, 05:25 PM
Yeah, casting with a flasher when what you need is a hootchie... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

M_Gunz
01-24-2010, 05:44 PM
20mm HE shell is almost 4x as big as 12.7mm HE bullet. Similarity is both have explosive.
Guess which has -far- more?

Hurricane has an e on the end btw.

Terrenceflynn
01-24-2010, 07:18 PM
This combat tends to confirm intelligence reports that state that the Hayabusa's machine cannon, though having poor penetrative powers, had significant explosive effect. A Type 1 fighter that he identified as a ZEKE hit 1 st Lt. Roy Klanrud a P-40 pilot of the 35 th FS. According to Klanrud: I knew I was badly shot upI expected another attack which would have been fatal because my elevator and coolant was shot up by a 20mm cannon. Three bullets hit my armor plate and glanced off, clearing out the glass of the canopy on the left side. More than one American fighter pilot hit by 12.7mm explosive rounds thought he had been hit by the larger 20mm round fired by the Japanese Navy's Zero fighter. A partial explanation for this phenomenon is suggested by findings of Britain's Ordnance Board that tested Japanese army 12.7mm ammunition. A 1944 report said: The fuse of the H.E./I. [high explosive/incendiary] shell is probably too sensitive for optimum performance. In tests in India the same type ammunition failed to ignite fuel in a partially filled petrol tin, it was thought because the blast effect was such that any possibility of petrol or petrol vapour being set on fire was nullified because of this. Another report concluded the super-sensitive fuse was likely to explode against an aircraft's wing or fuselage skin before penetrating to a fuel tank. Japanese armor piercing ammunition was found to be effective against certain types of Allied armor at least at close ranges on the order of 100 yards.

ImpStarDuece
01-24-2010, 07:49 PM
Source for those loss statistics?

A lot more than 140 Hurricanes were sent to Burma over the course of the war.

AndyJWest
01-24-2010, 08:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">This combat tends to confirm intelligence reports... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really? The pilot identified it as a Zeke. What evidence do you have that it wasn't? Even if he had been hit by 12.7 mm explosive rounds, it proves nothing in particular. Aircraft were frequently misidentified in combat, and I'm sure the effects of different weapons were too. How much experience had the pilot previously had of having his cockpit hit by gunfire?

Can you at least try to give a source for your data, then we might get somewhere...

Skoshi Tiger
01-24-2010, 08:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by trashcanUK:
wow, that has to be one of the worst developed theories ever http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif
amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No! I have one that is much worse! I'm just waiting for a 'Special' occasion before I release it on the world!

BillSwagger
01-24-2010, 11:22 PM
For what its worth, the USAAF researched the 12.7 He round and found it lacked sufficient composition to pack a terribly big punch.

I'd site a source but you all could probably just google "12.7 high explosive round" and be just as smart as me on the topic.

This also sounds like its inline with accounts about the poor range of some Japanese armament.
Being that a Browning of similar caliber needs to have a solid AP core for accuracy beyond the effective range of 1800ft. i don't think Japanese guns fired at the same velocity and with much less weight, ballisticaly they aren't going to have the same range as a solid mass, which clarifies that shots from those planes weren't very accurate but could do a significant number when impacting a plane. Of course it helps to be closer to the target when firing any gun because more shots land.



Bill

LEBillfish
01-25-2010, 10:10 AM
Dejavu huh?

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/foru...064997#3491064997... (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/8301074997?r=3491064997#3491064997...).

Scroll down a little to find my highly detailed answer......Yet take note of who the original poster is.

K2

M_Gunz
01-25-2010, 07:07 PM
So from SSDD to Same Troll (a synonym for something beginning with S) Different Day?

TheGrunch
01-25-2010, 08:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
So from SSDD to Same Troll (a synonym for something beginning with S) Different Day? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Haha, between him and Gaston it's a laugh a minute on this board. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif "I'm going to ignore all of the relevant evidence and testing to present some anecdotes that vaguely hint that someone THOUGHT that my strongly held opinion MIGHT be true!"

Jaws2002
01-25-2010, 09:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Terrenceflynn:
This again points to the explosive ammo used in the 12.7 mm Ho cannon. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's no such a thing as machine cannon, or 12.7mm cannon.

If the caliber is 12.7mm that's no "cannon", even if you want to make it look bigger and more dangerous than it was.

Here's how the ki43 looks when compared with the other war dogs in terms of firepower:

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

Nakajima Ki-43-Ib Hayabusa
1 x Type 89 Fixed (s)

1 x Ho-103 (s)

-ammo power <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">1310</span>
-Gun power <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">38</span>

Hawker Hurricane Mk.I
8 x Browning .303
-ammo power <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">2672</span>
Gun power <span class="ev_code_YELLOW"> 160</span>

Curtiss P-40E Warhawk
6 x Browning .50 M2

-ammo power <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">6486</span>
-Gun power <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">360</span>

and just for kicks:
Hawker Typhoon Mk.IB
4 x Hispano Mk.II
-ammo power <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">11200</span>
Gun power <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">800</span>


The Hayabusa was clearly one of the weakest armed planes of the war!!!
Go read Tony Williams's article on fighter firepower, I posted above, and get an idea just how how crappy the Ki-43 was in terms of firepower.

LEBillfish
01-26-2010, 12:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jaws2002:

Go read Tony Williams's article on fighter firepower, I posted above, and get an idea just how how crappy the Ki-43 was in terms of firepower. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Odd, just what I posted....

K2