PDA

View Full Version : Dear Oleg, can we have the 3Renders (=Monitors) Bugs fixed please ?



Manos1
02-14-2007, 05:04 PM
Dear Oleg,

I have been a good and wise IL2FB player since the very beginning and always paid for my simulations, add ons and often more than once.

I never placed outrageous demands (ok, ok, except for the discussion we had back in August 2004 about the field of view of the FW190 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif).

I would like to bring to your attention to a bug which is very disturbing when using one of the functions you have programmed since years:

This question is primarily directed to users who have set use3renders=1 and are using OpenGL with perfect mode or at least have hardwareshaders=1. I am using 3 monitors and that is why I have set use3renders=1.

I am looking for confirmation of the problem or feedback that it just my rig.


Problem

I use OpenGL and use the use3renders setting and when I have hardwareshaders=1 (as required for perfect mode) I get flashing textures. The textures that flash are things that are normally hidden. For example when I approach a ship I can see the red sides and bronze propellers flash/alternating with the water that is supposed to cover this. If a ship is sunk then I see it flashing under the water. Low clouds that are on the ground flash from the portion that should be hidden under the ground (clipped). A black box flashes on the bottom left side of the screen that is about 1/4 screen height and 1/4 screen width.


Case #1: use3renders=1 and hardwareshaders=0 - OK but no perfect mode.

When I set hardwareshaders=0 or use DirectX mode and keep my exact same screen resolution as before then everything works OK, I do not see the underwater sides of ships flashing, sunk ships are invisible under the water, and only the portions above ground for low clouds are visible. No flashing black box. However while I still have the 3 renders I am not running in perfect mode anymore


Case #2: use3renders=0 and hardwareshaders=1 - OK and perfect mode but now no 3 renders.

Likewise I can set use3renders=0 and keep my exact same screen resolution as before, use OpenGL, and have perfect mode set and hardwareshaders=1 and I have no problems either. In this case I am running in perfect mode but no longer have the 3 renders


Testing

The problem only occurs when both use3renders=1 and hardwareshaders=1 are set. Set either one of these to 0 and no problem.

I have tested this with the following resolutions and the problem occurs at each res when both use3renders=1 and hardwareshaders=1 are set and no problem occurs at these res when one of the values is changed to 0:

1920 x 480
2400 x 600
3072 x 768

I have tried two different Nvidia cards (no ATI because I'm using perfect mode) the 7950GX2 and now the 8800 GTX, both exhibit the same problem. I have used every driver that has ever been available for each card from Nvidia and Guru3d with no success in fixing this problem.

I have done more testing and have come to the conclusion that the problem is with the game and not a video driver issue. The problem exists on 4.05m and 4.07. I haven't tried any earlier versions.

I had performed additional testing using a GeForce 6800, ATI X800XL, and ATI 9800 Pro on different computer systems beyond my initial testing with the 7950GX2 and 8800GTX. For the NVIDIA 6800 I have used the following driver versions: 66.93, 77.72, 81.95, 91.47, 97.44, it didn't matter, problem existed with all. After that I tried the ATI cards and they both exhibited the same problem with CAT 6.10 and 6.12. At this point I believe I can rule out a hardware or driver problem, the only thing in common was the game.

Since coming to that conclusion I have called a few friends and had them try it on their computers. You can enable Use3Renders even if you don't have 3 monitors, it looks ugly on a single monitor but it at least gave me another source to test with. They both showed the same problem with their systems.

For people considering getting a TripleHead2Go and running three monitors I would not consider this a show stopper. I can still run at Excellent mode with no major problems. Just a few tiny issues but not worth mentioning. However if running in Perfect mode with HardwareShaders=1 is a must then the TripleHead2Go will not work for you at this time.


Try it for yourself!

If anyone with a single monitor would like to see what three monitors would look like on your system here are the changes to make to your conf.ini to test it out. Keep in mind that you will be doing this on one monitor so it will be very small, but you can see what the graphics issues are using Perfect mode with HardwareShaders=1 and Use3Renders=1.

To perform this test you must have a Video card that supports the HardwareShaders=1 setting. Otherwise you will not see the problem I am describing.

1) Make a backup copy of your conf.ini.

2) Figure out what res you are going to use. You will be putting 3 screens on one so you will need to divide your current res width by 3 to figure out what the maximum 'one' monitor width would be. The width/height ratio should be 4/3. So to get the height divide the one monitor width by 4. Then take this number and multiply by 3. This will give you the height.

For example my monitor is at 1600x1200 res. The below would be a good setting to use:

1200 is a good width because it is easily divided by 3, 3 screens of 400 width each.
A screen width of 400/4 = 100 * 3 = 300 screen height.

So this would mean

width=1200
height=300

The important thing here is don't set a width greater than your current screen resolution. The above setting should work OK for screens with a res of width 1280 and greater.

If you have 1024x768 res then use:

width=960
height=240


3) Modify the conf.ini sections to the following settings. Change width and height if necessary based on Step 2.

[window]
width=1200
height=300
ColourBits=32
DepthBits=24
StencilBits=8
ChangeScreenRes=0
FullScreen=0
DrawIfNotFocused=0
EnableResize=0
EnableClose=1
SaveAspect=1
Use3Renders=1

[GLPROVIDER]
GL=Opengl32.dll

[Render_OpenGL]
HardwareShaders=1


4) Launch the game. You should now see a window that has three screens, a black window, the game menu, and then a black window. Start a QMB and you will now see content in each screen, the left wing, cockpit, right wing.

5) If you used the above settings then you will see a flashing black box in the left window. You will also see the flashing sides of ships in water, flashing clouds on the ground, etc.

6) Exit the game and set HardwareShaders=0. Relaunch the game and now the flashing box and textures are gone. However you no longer have Perfect mode.

7) When done testing do not forget to restore your old conf.ini!!



This might be a good test to run if you are considering getting a TripleHead2Go, you can then determine if the flashing is too distracting (it is for me), of if you prefer 3 screens over Perfect mode (I chose this option).


Now that we finaly have the graphics card with enough power to drive such high 3072 x 768 resolutions and now that there exist HW solutions to attach 3 monitors, I think it is a real pity if bugs like this do not get fixed !

A loyal customer and flight sim fanatic...

~S~

Manos1

Manos1
02-14-2007, 05:04 PM
Dear Oleg,

I have been a good and wise IL2FB player since the very beginning and always paid for my simulations, add ons and often more than once.

I never placed outrageous demands (ok, ok, except for the discussion we had back in August 2004 about the field of view of the FW190 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif).

I would like to bring to your attention to a bug which is very disturbing when using one of the functions you have programmed since years:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">This question is primarily directed to users who have set use3renders=1 and are using OpenGL with perfect mode or at least have hardwareshaders=1. I am using 3 monitors and that is why I have set use3renders=1.

I am looking for confirmation of the problem or feedback that it just my rig.


Problem

I use OpenGL and use the use3renders setting and when I have hardwareshaders=1 (as required for perfect mode) I get flashing textures. The textures that flash are things that are normally hidden. For example when I approach a ship I can see the red sides and bronze propellers flash/alternating with the water that is supposed to cover this. If a ship is sunk then I see it flashing under the water. Low clouds that are on the ground flash from the portion that should be hidden under the ground (clipped). A black box flashes on the bottom left side of the screen that is about 1/4 screen height and 1/4 screen width.


Case #1: use3renders=1 and hardwareshaders=0 - OK but no perfect mode.

When I set hardwareshaders=0 or use DirectX mode and keep my exact same screen resolution as before then everything works OK, I do not see the underwater sides of ships flashing, sunk ships are invisible under the water, and only the portions above ground for low clouds are visible. No flashing black box. However while I still have the 3 renders I am not running in perfect mode anymore


Case #2: use3renders=0 and hardwareshaders=1 - OK and perfect mode but now no 3 renders.

Likewise I can set use3renders=0 and keep my exact same screen resolution as before, use OpenGL, and have perfect mode set and hardwareshaders=1 and I have no problems either. In this case I am running in perfect mode but no longer have the 3 renders


Testing

The problem only occurs when both use3renders=1 and hardwareshaders=1 are set. Set either one of these to 0 and no problem.

I have tested this with the following resolutions and the problem occurs at each res when both use3renders=1 and hardwareshaders=1 are set and no problem occurs at these res when one of the values is changed to 0:

1920 x 480
2400 x 600
3072 x 768

I have tried two different Nvidia cards (no ATI because I'm using perfect mode) the 7950GX2 and now the 8800 GTX, both exhibit the same problem. I have used every driver that has ever been available for each card from Nvidia and Guru3d with no success in fixing this problem.

I have done more testing and have come to the conclusion that the problem is with the game and not a video driver issue. The problem exists on 4.05m and 4.07. I haven't tried any earlier versions.

I had performed additional testing using a GeForce 6800, ATI X800XL, and ATI 9800 Pro on different computer systems beyond my initial testing with the 7950GX2 and 8800GTX. For the NVIDIA 6800 I have used the following driver versions: 66.93, 77.72, 81.95, 91.47, 97.44, it didn't matter, problem existed with all. After that I tried the ATI cards and they both exhibited the same problem with CAT 6.10 and 6.12. At this point I believe I can rule out a hardware or driver problem, the only thing in common was the game.

Since coming to that conclusion I have called a few friends and had them try it on their computers. You can enable Use3Renders even if you don't have 3 monitors, it looks ugly on a single monitor but it at least gave me another source to test with. They both showed the same problem with their systems.

For people considering getting a TripleHead2Go and running three monitors I would not consider this a show stopper. I can still run at Excellent mode with no major problems. Just a few tiny issues but not worth mentioning. However if running in Perfect mode with HardwareShaders=1 is a must then the TripleHead2Go will not work for you at this time.


Try it for yourself!

If anyone with a single monitor would like to see what three monitors would look like on your system here are the changes to make to your conf.ini to test it out. Keep in mind that you will be doing this on one monitor so it will be very small, but you can see what the graphics issues are using Perfect mode with HardwareShaders=1 and Use3Renders=1.

To perform this test you must have a Video card that supports the HardwareShaders=1 setting. Otherwise you will not see the problem I am describing.

1) Make a backup copy of your conf.ini.

2) Figure out what res you are going to use. You will be putting 3 screens on one so you will need to divide your current res width by 3 to figure out what the maximum 'one' monitor width would be. The width/height ratio should be 4/3. So to get the height divide the one monitor width by 4. Then take this number and multiply by 3. This will give you the height.

For example my monitor is at 1600x1200 res. The below would be a good setting to use:

1200 is a good width because it is easily divided by 3, 3 screens of 400 width each.
A screen width of 400/4 = 100 * 3 = 300 screen height.

So this would mean

width=1200
height=300

The important thing here is don't set a width greater than your current screen resolution. The above setting should work OK for screens with a res of width 1280 and greater.

If you have 1024x768 res then use:

width=960
height=240


3) Modify the conf.ini sections to the following settings. Change width and height if necessary based on Step 2.

[window]
width=1200
height=300
ColourBits=32
DepthBits=24
StencilBits=8
ChangeScreenRes=0
FullScreen=0
DrawIfNotFocused=0
EnableResize=0
EnableClose=1
SaveAspect=1
Use3Renders=1

[GLPROVIDER]
GL=Opengl32.dll

[Render_OpenGL]
HardwareShaders=1


4) Launch the game. You should now see a window that has three screens, a black window, the game menu, and then a black window. Start a QMB and you will now see content in each screen, the left wing, cockpit, right wing.

5) If you used the above settings then you will see a flashing black box in the left window. You will also see the flashing sides of ships in water, flashing clouds on the ground, etc.

6) Exit the game and set HardwareShaders=0. Relaunch the game and now the flashing box and textures are gone. However you no longer have Perfect mode.

7) When done testing do not forget to restore your old conf.ini!!



This might be a good test to run if you are considering getting a TripleHead2Go, you can then determine if the flashing is too distracting (it is for me), of if you prefer 3 screens over Perfect mode (I chose this option).
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now that we finaly have the graphics card with enough power to drive such high 3072 x 768 resolutions and now that there exist HW solutions to attach 3 monitors, I think it is a real pity if bugs like this do not get fixed !

A loyal customer and flight sim fanatic...

~S~

Manos1

grifter2u
02-14-2007, 06:17 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

DanoClark
02-15-2007, 03:14 AM
I always thought it was a setting for triple buffering...

Manos1
03-13-2007, 03:10 AM
Now that we have the solution and can bypass the famous Widescreen 42" LCD monitors which can not display anything more than a "chopped" front view problem,

http://www.e-335thgr.com/Athos/TripleHead2Go_01.JPG

http://www.e-335thgr.com/Athos/TripleHead2Go_02.JPG

CAN WE PLEASE HAVE THE BUGS FIXED ?

~S~

knightflyte
03-17-2007, 02:42 AM
How do you fly an airplane that looks like it's wings are extended in front of it like Superman? Isn't it distracting?

Manos1
03-17-2007, 06:50 AM
All the monitors have been put into a line in order to take the photograph.

In reality the left and right monitors are placed at 45? compared to the front monitor.

It gives you a fantastic view compared to a single monitor (you have a Field of vision of 180? degrees).

The only difficulty I experience is to coordinate the a.) eye movement + b.) TrackIR head movement during high speed passes at dogfights.

~S~

knightflyte
03-18-2007, 09:26 AM
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Okay, that makes sense. I've seen a few other 3 monitor pictures and they were side by side too, so it puzzled me how it could be anything but distracting. Thanx for the clarification.

Valjack
03-26-2007, 09:00 AM
Yes, i also use Tripplehead2GO, same problems as -well- explained upper and also would like to play with Max settings without ugly flashs or black arcs... as i'm stuck playing with hardwareshaders=0, of course framedrop and still have problems with clouds, specially on side monitors (they often tend to 'roll' on themselves or lose consistancy)

The THead bonus is so great i'll live with that, but please... consider it's my best game so far and i buyed all that JUST to have the best IL2 experience posssible... for so many years now!! :-)

Lurch1962
03-26-2007, 04:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">In reality the left and right monitors are placed at 45? compared to the front monitor.

It gives you a fantastic view compared to a single monitor (you have a Field of vision of 180? degrees). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you have the FOV for a single view set at 90 degrees, then the side monitors should more properly be placed at right angles to the centre one. In such case, your total FOV would be 90 degrees x 3 = 270 degrees!

Moreover, if you could obtain sufficiently gigantic monitors, there would be enough room to sit with your head at the ideal location, namely at the 3 intersecting perpendiculars projecting out of the centre of each screen. In this way you would have a completely undistorted view of all 3 views, the only minus being the gaps caused by the edges of the monitor housings. Then your wings wouldn't look like "Superman's" arm thrusting forward. In fact, the side views would extend behind your viewpoint by the correct 45 degrees--a pretty cool "wrap-around" effect!

--Lurch--

grifter2u
04-06-2007, 06:53 AM
manos,

why have you set your FoV so wide ?

i know ideally we would all like a 180 degree FoV, but 3 monitors at 19' would seem more suitable for a 120 FoV in total.

if you combine that with a track-ir, should be perfect http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

or is there some limitation in the way FoV's can be implemented by the triplehead ?

Manos1
04-06-2007, 04:27 PM
Hallo grifter,

The FoV's are the same as in standard game.

The advantage of using the option 3Renders=1 is that instead of looking at the front view only, you can simultanously look at the Left view and Right view as well.

To put it otherwise:
Start the game, select a quick mission and, whil in the air, press the key on your keyboard to activate Left View.
While using the Left view, play with the Del, End, PageDwn keys (and the other zoom keys if you set them up).
These are the standard FoV's
With 3renders=1 I simply do this at three screens simultanously.

~S~

grifter2u
04-06-2007, 08:51 PM
hiya manos,

there is a new digital version of the matrox gadget coming out soon, will that have the same problems in il2 as what you described in your initial post ?

Manos1
04-07-2007, 02:44 PM
You should assume so.

Changing the connection cable (VGA vs DVI) between your graphics card and your monitor is unprobable that it will solve your software issues http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

~S~

zaelu
04-09-2007, 06:58 AM
Sorry to be a little of topic

Manos1, are you saying that we can have wider FOV in IL-2 somehow? Or your setup in the pictures is made using only third party hardware/software (namely Matrox TripleHead2Go)?

I am asking this because few days ago I got an 22" widescreen monitor and although the game looks fantastic at 1680X1050 resolution I kinda miss the croped parts. So I'm thinking that maybe your pictures and your words are implying that there is a solution for wide screen also.

Sorry if I'm asking about a known fact maybe.

Manos1
04-09-2007, 01:22 PM
Hi zaelu

The answer is as follows:
YES, you can have a wider Field Of View
It is a combination of hardware (TripleHead2go + 3 Monitors) AND software(IL2FB has a special option "hidden" in the conf.ini file).

Your single LCD Monitor will not help you.
Unless if you have a monitor that an do 2400 pixels (3x800, for three widows 800x600) or better 3072pixels (3x1024, for three widows 1024x768) wide.

You can test the settings but will probably be impracical in IL2FB flying; Just read the first post which explains how to do it using one single monitor.

Needles to say of course, you need to have a very good graphics card in order to fly at 3074x768 resolution with decend fps.
I have 2 x 7900GTX SLI on an Opteron dual core @ 2,80GHz and I only have 35fps in perfect mode and looking forward for the end of the month when the ATI R600 will be introduced...


~S~

zaelu
04-10-2007, 08:17 AM
Thank you Manos1 for your reply. Unfortunaly my monitor is just 1680 pixels wide. So I'm out of the luck for now.

But, since it is posible to do the thing in Use3Renders mode wouldn't be possible to make this High FOV available for everybody? It will be good enough if it would be something in conf.ini as are these settings about triplehead2go.
What I mean is something like a new setting for custom Max FOV. This way people that want to have the ability to see *** much as on a wide 16/10 screen on a 4/3 or 5/4 normal screen could do it either by adding black bars on top and the bottom of the screen or by squizing more horisontal image information on the same horisontal dimension. this way there will be no complaint about "seeing" more on wide screen. And if someone is complaining about the posible black bars or geometrical destorsion by using higher FOV... well, what can I say about croping which substracts from the game?

Also this argument of seeing more on the sides and having by this an advantage is a not realy good one as using a lower graphic setting and graphic resolution adds more advantages.

Would it be fesable if a sort of "Whine Thread" like this would be made about this kind of option in ORR?

Oh... we are in ORR http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

So Oleg or other dev team memeber with more time to take a look here, could it be posible to add such an option... please? Cause I'm so happy that now I can actualy read the gauges on P-38 without zooming in... but by panning a little http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .

Manos1
04-10-2007, 09:08 AM
I understand your point zaelu.

I also tried a 32" and a 42" LCD screen and was quickly turned down by it.

I do not know why IL2FB does not support wide screens.

But, believe me, the use3renders option that this game has "hidden" in its options is a lot more difficult to programm than a wide(r) view.

I really wish this option had been made more known earlier. I spent '000s on HW experimenting on the wrong things for months...

Another point in favour of three monitors: You have a field of view of some 240? (somebody calculated in this forum).
You could not see this on a wide monitor because the distortion would be too much.
You need to tilt the side monitors by some 45? compared to the front monitor in order to have a realistic view (the photo shows all three monitors in a line in order to make the photo possible).

So, in reality we complain why we do not get the "Mercedes" when we already have the "Porsche" in our system.

~S~

zaelu
04-10-2007, 09:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Manos1:
...
So, in reality we complain why we do not get the "Mercedes" when we already have the "Porsche" in our system.

~S~ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

True but, apparently I can't start it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

BeerCamel
04-10-2007, 02:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by grifter2u:
hiya manos,

there is a new digital version of the matrox gadget coming out soon, will that have the same problems in il2 as what you described in your initial post ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


The flashing box and or flashing textures are not caused by the triple head to go. They are a problem in the game. You can see it for yourself if you ˜simulate wide screen'

Step 1-Set your highest desktop resolution you can.. For me it is the TFT native res of 1280x1034x32

Step 2- Go to your IL2 1946 folder and BACKUP your conf.ini file

Step 3- Make the following edits to you Conf.ini file in the 1946 folder. MAKE SURE the width value you select is the same as your desktop width value. The height values should be ¼ of the width. For 1280H it would be 320W, for 1024H it would be 256W


[window]
width=1280
height=320
ColourBits=32
DepthBits=24
StencilBits=8
ChangeScreenRes=0
FullScreen=0
DrawIfNotFocused=0
EnableResize=0
EnableClose=1
SaveAspect=1
Use3Renders=1



Play the game in perfect mode and you will see the flashing box in the left panel

Step 4- return you game to normal by replacing your modified conf.ini with you original backup.


VP

Manos1
04-22-2007, 04:36 AM
Correction:

Using the NGO modified drivers for NVIDIA
version19792 based on NVIDIA original 97.92 driver, most problems were corrected.

Perfect mode is available now, remains only the blinking black box on the left monitor...

Interesting what a good set of drivers can do...

~S~

grifter2u
04-22-2007, 07:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">5) If you used the above settings then you will see a flashing black box in the left window. You will also see the flashing sides of ships in water, flashing clouds on the ground, etc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

so if with the newer drivers there is only still a flashing "black box" on the left monitor, is this maybe an object which was placed there by mistake in some line of il2 code somewhere ? what is this black box, is it a game object of some type ?

Manos1
04-23-2007, 04:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by grifter2u:
is this maybe an object which was placed there by mistake in some line of il2 code somewhere ? what is this black box, is it a game object of some type ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is not an object, it looks as if this area of the screen flashes...

~S~