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Tranie117
09-21-2008, 04:23 AM
I recently made a post about the flying a P-38 vs Zero's. This was incredaly informative and I thank everyone who replied. I understand that I cannot out turn the Zero and need to be making "Attack runs" i.e. getting above the zeros and comeing down on them very fast. The phrase "Death form above" springs to mind. I'm tryingout this new tactic and I'm yet to be shot down but I'm struggleing to get any kills. Any tips on atack runs. I hear the tempest is very good at them, and my Dad "Desk piolet" would also apretiate the advice for when he is flying Tempest. Thank you very much.

Tranie117
09-21-2008, 04:23 AM
I recently made a post about the flying a P-38 vs Zero's. This was incredaly informative and I thank everyone who replied. I understand that I cannot out turn the Zero and need to be making "Attack runs" i.e. getting above the zeros and comeing down on them very fast. The phrase "Death form above" springs to mind. I'm tryingout this new tactic and I'm yet to be shot down but I'm struggleing to get any kills. Any tips on atack runs. I hear the tempest is very good at them, and my Dad "Desk piolet" would also apretiate the advice for when he is flying Tempest. Thank you very much.

Fehler
09-21-2008, 04:48 AM
I think what you are talking about is actually called deflection shooting.

When making a deflection shot, the goal is to place your stream of rounds in a spot where your target will fly into them.

This is much different than saddling up on the 6 O'clock position and plinking your target.

You want to attack at high angles. What I mean by this is angles where the large surfaces of the target (The tops or bottoms of the wings) are visible. You fire a healthy burst and watch your target fly into the stream; most of the time exploding or ripping a wing off.

To practice this, set up the QMB with friendly bombers and climb above them. Dive in on them and shoot ahead of their path. To get added confidence on when to pull the trigger, slow the speed of the game down to watch where your bullets are going.

When you are starting this training, you will most likely miss because you did not lead far enough. This is common (At least it was for me when I first started) but by watching your tracks, you can quickly begin to visualize how far you have to lead an airplane when shooting. Rule of thumb, the faster your target is going, the more you will have to lead it.

That's why one of the best defensive tactics against the high deflection shot is the break turn...

I am sorry I don't have any tracks to demonstrate this, I am away from my gaming computer right now...

Another way to line up a high energy shot is to dive under your target from a small distance. You time the zoom climb so that you will be shooting at the targets belly as you climb. This works very well against targets that have top rear gunners only like the Stuka and IL2 because their gunners cannot shoot at you.

Adolf Galland used this as his preferred tactic for killing because it accomplishes two thing:

1.) Your target will lose you in his blind spot.

2.) If you miss you will quickly be back at your altitude advantage and this will not allow the target to pull a lead shot on you. If he tries, he will bleed his energy, further compounding his (The target's) problems... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I hope this helps... Enjoy the crack!

Tranie117
09-21-2008, 04:54 AM
Enjoy the Crack?

Anyways, yeah i understand what you mean about deflection shooting. I'm just struggleing to get into a shooting position. Usualy when I come down on a Zero it pulls up or turns and I go past him while I'm trying to adjust. But thanks.

Fehler
09-21-2008, 05:03 AM
Yeah, enjoy the crack...

Crack is addictive. Il2 is addictive. Therefore:

IL2=Crack

It's simple math. You are now addicted. LOL

Fehler
09-21-2008, 05:06 AM
Oh, by the way... I didnt mean to sound condescending. I dont know the level of your abilities and with so many new people here lately, I hoped to give an answer that others with less experience could also gain from. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

M_Gunz
09-21-2008, 06:26 AM
Death From Above --
The motto ("Mors Ab Alto" in Latin) of the 7th Bombardment Group in the 101st Airborne Division in January 1933

And I thought it was the whole 101st! Something new to learn every day!

Bottom of the page, my tips to Parliment on gunnery practice. (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/4951046486/p/1)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You cross 100m/sec with 360 kph closure. At 30 deg deflection, about HALF of your speed is
closure PLUS whatever speed difference there is between you. At 45 deg deflection it is 70%.
You can be co-speed and still close quickly. Just take care not to ram the target because
you stayed on the trigger too long! You'll see. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's roughly true, the math works out a little different as to the "PLUS whatever speed
difference there is between you". Really it's plus the cosine of the difference which is
zero at 90 deg deflection but 87% at 30 degree. At 90 degrees your whole speed in the
closure.

Because of this:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Last of all (finally); your closure rate will affect how far the shots have to travel to
the target. The faster you close, the quicker they get there and the longer the range,
the more difference it makes.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can and should shoot <span class="ev_code_RED">beyond convergence</span> when firing at high closure rate.
The longer the shot, the more "bonus range" you get.

Tranie117
09-22-2008, 01:01 AM
I see, Crack, IL2.

You weren't condersending the post was very vauge and I'm not very good anyways. Thanks for the tips anyway guys! I will try them out soon.

WTE_Galway
09-22-2008, 01:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tranie117:
I see, Crack, IL2.

You weren't condersending the post was very vauge and I'm not very good anyways. Thanks for the tips anyway guys! I will try them out soon. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

One hint.

Practice defection shooting in a dive using Quick Mission Builder at 1/4 speed. If you are hitting you should get flashes and bits of stuff coming off the target. If you are not hitting pause the game and use CTRL F2 to have a look where the shots are landing on the target.

Once you get the hang of it, go to half speed and then finally full speed. Eventually see if you can dive down from above and take out a target at double speed http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

M_Gunz
09-22-2008, 02:11 AM
If for practice you set Arcade=1 in your conf.ini then all hits will show as white dots on
the target. They will fade in a while but you will know when you hit with no doubts.

It goes in under [game]

[game]
Arcade=0

If it is 1 during playback you will see the arrows showing direction all hits travel along
plus more for explosive shell fragments.

Xiolablu3
09-22-2008, 05:13 AM
The P38 is not the best plane to be learning this technique in because it doesnt have good high speed control.

If you are going very fast in the dive and the Zero is going slow, he will naturally outturn and avoid you easily.

For practising this, try using the Tempest or FW190. Tempest probably has the better view.
You will be shooting sometimes when you cannot see your target (he is behind your engine so you can get the correct deflection.) YOu could switch the cockpit off in order to learn this too.

My recommendation in order to train &gt;

Tempest and Cockpit off

Once you can shoot some down using Boom and ZOom, try it with cockpit on, then finally try it in the P38.

TinyTim
09-22-2008, 06:56 AM
Record your mission and review the track immediately afterwards, especially parts where you were shooting, from as many different angles as possible, including cockpit OFF. Seeing where and how far your bullets missed the target should give you a clear idea on how to improve deflection shooting (where you should aim instead).

Tranie117
09-22-2008, 09:47 AM
I've tried flying the tempest against some Ac-120, just for practice and found it allot harder because I'm so usaed to the P-38. I managed to get one Zero in the lightning, But I then flew into his wreckage and it took my wing off http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif so I don't think that counts.


How much higher then them should I be roughly and how fast should I go in the attack run?

VW-IceFire
09-22-2008, 09:56 AM
With the Tempest my approach is always the faster the better (within dive speed limits). Some of my best bounces online (and off) have been approaching 600kph to 650kph...just before the whole thing starts to shudder. At that point I'm throttling back and adjusting aim to blast the guy.

In the P-38 my approach would be different. The Tempest dives fast and retains good control all the way until it falls apart. The P-38 starts to loose control effectiveness (in-game) at 450kph (ish) so as soon as I enter the dive I'm usually standing on the rudder and throttling back to keep the speed in a usable range.

Then its a matter of deflection shooting. There is no one altitude but you do have to consider everything involved. Aim for where he will be...not where he is right now. If he's evasive then it may be a matter of guessing and a lucky shot. If you miss...then reposition.

Like I said, in the Tempest its a different ball game in terms of the approach because of the control responsiveness but ultimately you're doing the same thing of lining up the deflection and firing away.

M_Gunz
09-22-2008, 10:31 AM
Deflection shooting is a different matter between nose and wing guns.
With wing guns you have the horizontal spread as well as the vertical rise or drop to deal with
from convergence.

I go for long convergence just to get a deeper range window when using wing guns/cannon.
I don't worry so much about penetrating strength when hitting from off angles either though
with cannon it matters even less.

Nose cannon or cannon close in on the wings are the best for deflection shooting at any range
you get the shot but wing guns seem to have less drop at long range when converge is long, set
up that way they shoot way low at very close range. NP to me, I've already broken off shooting
and am avoiding collision by then.

Tranie117
09-22-2008, 10:47 AM
Surely where the guns are doesn't effect how fast the bullets/shells drop?

M_Gunz
09-22-2008, 11:53 AM
Where the guns are with relation to the sight line affects the crossing points and how the
drop appears from along the sight line.

Guns typically 1 meter below the sight line have more lob than guns less than half lower.

Afterhours
09-22-2008, 01:30 PM
P-38J making attack runs:

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=92664d2ffc8955add2db6fb9a8902bda

Track was made in COOP on hard settings with twisty-stick and hat-switch....

With the P-38, try to get on their six, but make sure you are traveling much, much faster than they are. If you can shoot from their six or twelve at a narrow deflection angle, then you will get many more hits. At high deflection angles, when you use machine guns instead of cannons, you will not damage the opponent enough to disable them nearly as often.