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View Full Version : La-7 vs Bf109-K thoughts and questions



skabbe
01-03-2005, 11:56 AM
So everyone talks about la-7 as a uberplane, fine. But shouldnt BF109k
be a bit better. Some say 109 turns like a god, some say it quite bad.
109 got slots wich should help in providing good turning ability at low speeds, in IL-2
it seems not. I can belive that high speed turning can be to turbulent for
slots and make BF109 a less good turner in high speed. But why didnt the germans improve
bf109 if it turned so bad as it does in IL-2?
And the speed? BF109k got a supercharged V12 36 liter engine, La-7 got a 41 liter radial engine
with 14cylinders. Both got the same horsepower. A radial engine got the aventage
of small loss of horsepower over the short crankshaft but problems with aerodynamics
and burning oil. But a V12 with the same HP should have more torque, though LA-7 had more volume.
BF109 is just as small and has a more slick shape then La-7. Yet in IL-2 bf109
have a lot of problem passing 450 kmh, and La-7 just rumble on past 500 kmh. Strange...
BF109 has got better climbrate as well.

Now I dont know so mutch about La-7 to judge the programmer of having a bit of extra
love for just that plane but shouldnt BF109 be a bit more like La-7. P-51, spitfire, p40
seems to outclass BF109, and thats WEIRD I think...

MEGILE
01-03-2005, 12:06 PM
I know what you mean.
Sometimes it seems like the BF-109K4 is totally outclassed. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif Us K4 pilots struggle against the uber allied planes. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif
BUT we are better pilots, so thats how we get more points! Our planes are still outclassed though. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Oleg hates German planes.

Daiichidoku
01-03-2005, 12:15 PM
AS far as aerodynamics go, the K4 and most later 109s were terrible...all sorts of drag inducing intakes and bumps....

In spite of its radial engiine, La7 is MUCH more aerodynamic than the K4

Whatsmypassword
01-03-2005, 12:35 PM
It is not all about horsepower. YAK-3 with its 1240 HP outclassed Bf-109. You never thought why the favourite tactic of Luftwaffe pilots eg Hartmann's was to hit, dive and run? Cos they probably knew something about the after-1943 WWII VVS planes' qualities that made them think twice before getting into dogfight with them without any extreme need or in the absense of any obvious advantages that you guys, Skabbe & Megile are probably not ready to concede http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.ares.cz/hobby/smer/picture/0836.jpg

skabbe
01-03-2005, 12:50 PM
Whatsmypassword

i didnt just say about horsepower... and thats the best tactic if you got a highpower plane and a climbrate out of this sky.

The190Flyer
01-03-2005, 12:57 PM
Any Luft pilot who says a 109 can't turn obviously doesn't know how to fly a 109. The 109 and 190 are my fav's in the game. I feel that German pilots are the best pilots because it takes more skill to fly em IMO (also american pilots are good, takes some skill to fly em well also) But you put a normal La-7 pilot in a 190 and he will stall out before he even gets high in the air. Of course this is just my opinion, don't take it wrong!

S! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

a.k.a. BIFF P-51 PILOT in ubi.com lobbies

Whatsmypassword
01-03-2005, 01:03 PM
In any case I think it is unfair to compare a modification of the 1937 fighter plane with the 1944 La-7. Diving was indeed a good tactic for a heavy-nose Bf-109 which was getting heavier and heavier by the end of the war at the cost of maneuverability. This was a dead end in the Bf-109 development. On the other side the Nazis air industry could not afford to change its main front fighter plane at the height of the war.


http://www.ares.cz/hobby/smer/picture/0836.jpg

robban75
01-03-2005, 01:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Whatsmypassword:
In any case I think it is unfair to compare a modification of the 1937 fighter plane with the 1944 La-7. Diving was indeed a good tactic for a heavy-nose Bf-109 which was getting heavier and heavier by the end of the war at the cost of maneuverability. This was a dead end in the Bf-109 development. On the other side the Nazis air industry could not afford to change its main front fighter plane at the height of the war.


http://www.ares.cz/hobby/smer/picture/0836.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The 109 became heavier and less manouverable as the war progressed, but it didn't get less effective, I dare to say it got better, with more powerful armament, higher topspeed, and higher climbrate. Although the K-4 we have in the game seems to be quite overdone in the latter. It is however terrible at high speeds instead.

KaRaYa-X
01-03-2005, 01:23 PM
Actually I think the Bf109K4 has some serious advantages over the La7 in combat:

- an incredible climb-rate (about 28m/s compared to a maximum of 23-24m/s for the La7)
- a higher top-speed at high alts (714km/h for the K4; 685km/h for the La7)
- a better dive capability (will break up at a much higher speed) although it's more difficult to pull the Bf109 out of the dive
- a more effective armament (one good aiming solution and you enemy probably is dead/crippled)

However it also has its shortcomings such as:
-slower top-speed at low alts (585km/h compared to around 600km/h for the La7)
-worse turn rate which is a result of increased weight but constant wing-area (compared to earlier versions)
-very limited ammo (only 65x30mm)

I feel that the Bf109G10/14/K4 turn-rate is quite good - especially when fighting american planes... if you don't have the initative then just turn with them. If they play your game they will loose, if they are smart they'll decide to run away and you have time to get back to alt and get some speed for the next bogey


What I find most useful when flying the Bf109 is having a very good aim... especially the late-war Mk108 equipped Bf109s are not the planes you'll want to spray and pray in. Every shot has got to find its target.

Whatsmypassword
01-03-2005, 01:36 PM
It seems to me that later Bf-109 modifications were better suited to fight against strategic bombers and their escort fighters but on the Eastern front the air combat rarely took place at altitudes higher than 5 km.

The most serious advantage of LA-7 was that this aircraft was given to best VVS (Guards) regiments. Good pilots on good aircraft was a deadly alliance.

LStarosta
01-03-2005, 01:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Megile:
I know what you mean.
Sometimes it seems like the BF-109K4 is totally outclassed. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif Us K4 pilots struggle against the uber allied planes. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif
BUT we are better pilots, so thats how we get more points! Our planes are still outclassed though. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Oleg hates German planes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


They may be uber in your eyes, but most planes such as the Spitfire and the P51 were designed to be easy to fly in real life. Go figure.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The190Flyer:
Any Luft pilot who says a 109 can't turn obviously doesn't know how to fly a 109. The 109 and 190 are my fav's in the game. I feel that German pilots are the best pilots because it takes more skill to fly em IMO (also american pilots are good, takes some skill to fly em well also) But you put a normal La-7 pilot in a 190 and he will stall out before he even gets high in the air. Of course this is just my opinion, don't take it wrong!

S! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

a.k.a. BIFF P-51 PILOT in ubi.com lobbies <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I feel iffy about this. I fly 190's and I consider myself a decent pilot in terms of handling the plane, and I can hold my own in combat at co alt, and I can most likely drag down an opponent with an E advantage in the form of altitude.

However, there is one thing...

I cannot fly the La7 for ****. Fact.



As to the 109K... I used to like it a lot, but now its elevator got even more porked. I hate how the elevator is stone cold at 400km/h. If this is realistic, great. But it doesn't suit my type of fighting style.

LEXX_Luthor
01-03-2005, 06:21 PM
I agree with Daiich...yikes!

Daiich:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>AS far as aerodynamics go, the K4 and most later 109s were terrible...all sorts of drag inducing intakes and bumps....

In spite of its radial engiine, La7 is MUCH more aerodynamic than the K4 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Fw~190D may make better aerodynamic comparison with La than Bf~109, although appearances, like "slick shape" posted above, almost always trick you.

I learned from Kurfurst (or MajestyLudi) that real life Bf~109K climbrate actually increased with altitude up to about 5km, and only then began to climb less well, blew me away that did if its true.

Yes, MiG~3 also has the same concrete elevator as Bf~109 at medium-high speeds.

crazyivan1970
01-03-2005, 11:39 PM
Put La7 above 5k and watch K4 slowly murdering it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Saying that 109 is outclassed is... ok, due to my position i`ll leave it to myself. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

x__CRASH__x
01-04-2005, 12:20 AM
Fly the G10. I much better turner in the game, as I again learned last night. I flew a K4 so I could carry a 500kg bomb. Dropped it on the AAA, straffed a few aircraft on the deck, and then a P-39 and Spit got on my wingman's six. He ran, and I chased them down. I got right on the six of the spit and sliced off his wing. P-39 saw that and pulled up hard. My brain was in G10 mode, so I dropped to combat flaps and closed the radiator and pulled with him. I could have had the first cross shot, as I was inside his initial turn, but we crossed so fast that I couldn't take the shot, so i pulled harder, but the K4 just didn't respond like the G10 does. We did 2 loops. He got little .50 cal hits on me with each pass. I realized that there was no way i could turn fight the K4, and tried to run. But the spit that snuck into the fight did me in.

Anyway, G10 is mah ride. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BBB_Hyperion
01-04-2005, 02:01 AM
IMHO K4 is the best prop fighter ingame .)
But to exploit full potential trim and pitch control needs to be mastered.

HayateAce
01-04-2005, 02:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:
IMHO K4 is the best prop fighter ingame.

....exploit.......trim and pitch......

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mmmmm, exploits.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Daiichidoku
01-04-2005, 02:24 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

IMHO, the Jug is best prop fighter....and if it was anywhere near correct, the 38 would be

sapre
01-04-2005, 02:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Megile:
Oleg hates German planes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No he doesn't!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

x__CRASH__x
01-04-2005, 02:52 AM
He says he likes the 109 the most. But it seems to me that generous Russian data has helped the USSR's fighters overcome all weaknesses. While Russian data has misunderstood the Facists airplanes to one degree or another.

The Rodina will not be questioned! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

WOLFMondo
01-04-2005, 02:59 AM
Bah! Those 109's are uber planes in disguise. I've seen guys pull of moves in a 109G/K that a Spitfire could only dream of then have the gaul to shout UFO and N00b at Spit pilots.

BTW, the new Uberplane is the P63, forget the La7.

x__CRASH__x
01-04-2005, 03:02 AM
Mondo? You were flying in WC ealier today, weren't you? FW's with Fish?

109 is far from Uber. I can pull the moves I pull after years of practice in the thing. Not everyone can cause they don't know the tricks.

WOLFMondo
01-04-2005, 03:22 AM
Yeah, i've left my beloved Jug for the 190's for the minute. Fish gave me some tips on flying 190's and getting the best performance out of them. Im hookedhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Maybe its down to the specific pilot more than the plane but I do see 109's doing things Spits get called UFO's for. Bare in mind im quite impartial when it comes to bias or picking sides, im no luft or britwhiner.

x__CRASH__x
01-04-2005, 04:31 AM
From a 109 perspective flying against many spits....

Spits seem to do nothing poorly. When I mention that to people who like it, they tell me that it overheats too fast. Well, fly a K4 I say. Then you will know what overheating is.

I've flown against spits on the deck. Very capable turn fighters. Getting an inside shot is very tough to accomplish. I've flown against them at high alt. They turn like Yak 3's flying at low alt, and this was at 8k meters! Don't even get me started on their 20mm laser beams.

Flying against spits is frustrating when you are a LW pilot. Am I a luftwhiner? Could be. High alt performance of the spit vs 109 is off. LW 20mm's are off. It just gets frustrating having to come up with ways to deal with UFO's.

TheGozr
01-04-2005, 04:43 AM
Blablabla! Blabla It's all on Your settings. and Please Do NOT fly with the same setting for a la 7 in a mustang ...
Watch the numbers , think... Know your plane and a good training is the key.

WOLFMondo
01-04-2005, 05:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by x__CRASH__x:

Flying against spits is frustrating when you are a LW pilot. Am I a luftwhiner? Could be. High alt performance of the spit vs 109 is off. LW 20mm's are off. It just gets frustrating having to come up with ways to deal with UFO's. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Spit does nothing poorly? Its straightline speed compared to other '44 planes (the version we have is pre '44 also due to lack of 25lbs boost) is lacking allot. It can be outpaced by any LW plane, even the '43 planes. With a 25lbs boost it would be different down low but up high the 109K4 has a massive speed advantage over the IX even with a the speed bug. Its roll is also rather sluggish and there guns while damaging don't have much ammo in them.

The Spit has a good wing with allot of lift and the Merlin was always good at all altitudes, the British were great at making good superchargers, it was there forte. Just look at the ceiling for any spitfire, there very high. Why would the RAF stick with it all through the war if it wasn't a great plane thats easy to fly with a excellent engine? They could have produced the Mustang in large numbers or any other allied type they wanted but they stuck with the Spit.

I stand by what I say though, I see 109's and Spits going at it and things balance out, flying spits online almost seems like a 1 way ticket to a death kick...for me anyway, can't hit the side of a barn with them.

BTW, the LW guys on TS playing on WC have great team work, 4-5 guys working together in a mix if 109's and 190's can totally dominate the allies. It was good fun.

MEGILE
01-04-2005, 06:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Saying that 109 is outclassed is... ok, due to my position i`ll leave it to myself. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You sounds like Sir.Robin http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

Quite right though.... the BF-109K4 is far from outclassed.
It is the best low altitude dogfighter on the Western front be sure.
Spits are good, but the K4 has the edge in speed and climb rate.
Both have excellent firepower, but MK108s will explode Spitfires with 1 hit. FACT http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

For any 109 pilot to claim that he is fighting superior enemies... is laughable. I won't deny that you can rack up more kills in a BF-109K4 than in any other fighter. BF-109 pilots fly it bcause they know how good it is, and what you can do with it.

However, once it reaches high altitude.. like all axis planes, its *** will be severly kicked by any decent allied pilot in a P-47D27, Spitfire IXeHF or P51. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

With Uber-spits, and Uber-109s... blue and red are now more equal than they have ever been.

TgD Thunderbolt56
01-04-2005, 07:37 AM
An accomplished 109 driver is a tough opponent regardless of what you're flying.

Personally, the stiff high-speed elevator on the K4 is a deterrent to me. I still fly it on occassion, but it seems to be a mere shell of what it used to be. It's still an excellent fighter. If you get caught below 1k against multiple opponents...fugedaboudit.

TB

Von_Rat
01-04-2005, 07:50 AM
1 30mm will only somtimes kill a spit, most times now it takes about 4 mk108s. must be built tougher than b17s.

i find the 109g6as to be superior to the k4, its turns much better at all alts and its concrete elevator isn't quite as ridicolous as the k4s, and its deck speed is only a little slower.

sikira_SG
01-04-2005, 08:08 AM
Spit UFO ???

Actually...hang on..I got undisputed proof http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

http://www.burnspot.com/modules/xcgal/albums/userpics/10119/Roswell_Ptron.jpg

And

http://www.sikira.com/images/allied_rnd.jpg

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

Cheers

JV44Sikira

Intruder_GP
01-04-2005, 09:17 AM
Two good write ups and I totally aggree with it.

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.


WOLFMondo


posted Tue January 04 2005 01:59

Bah! Those 109's are uber planes in disguise.
I've seen guys pull of moves in a 109G/K that a Spitfire could only dream of then have the gaul to shout UFO and N00b at Spit pilots.


I always fly a Yak-3P on particular server that has some great 109 K4 fliers where they do some incredible turns with these birds and if not carefull you could be dead meat.

So cut the Bull that a 109 is porked cause in the right hands its a killer.

Peeps that cannot shoot down a good pilot cry Uber and find satisfaction in their minds that they were killed by a Uber plane.

skabbe
01-04-2005, 10:55 AM
so how about two uber pilots in a p51 and bf109 then?

Sig.Hirsch
01-04-2005, 11:31 AM
Bf-109 K4's elevator response over 400 kph is porked .
at 6500 m flat turns it does it in 33 seconds ! (30 with max trim) : this is a great bug .

In IRL it should turn in 24 seconds ....

Oleg said it was a joystick problem some months ago in ORR , but it is NOT a joy bug , it's a FM bug , we all know it now , unless someone can post a track with K4 turning in 24 sec at 6500 m which i doubt .

I don't know any plane in IL-2 FB having such a big pork , this plane is just useless at high alts ingame versus equal pilots , while it was a very good plane IRL at those alts , that's a pity .
it seeems they mixed 400 mph and 400 kph in the FM , for setting the elevator control getting stiff.

regards ,

HayateAce
01-04-2005, 11:40 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

robban75
01-04-2005, 11:44 AM
@sikira! That's priceless! Good job! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Atomic_Marten
01-04-2005, 11:48 AM
I'm satisfied with Bf-109G-10/14s. May I even say more than before. Nothing big, just a little impression (v3.03).

About Spits.. I like that plane also, and it really does not matter if that plane is my maybe the most feared enemy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.(I just love history http://acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/images/smiles/think.gif http://acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/images/smiles/riseyebr.gif )

Atomic_Marten
01-04-2005, 11:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by robban75:
@sikira! That's priceless! Good job! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah awsum. http://www.forum.hr/images/smilies/lol.gif

Thanks @Axe http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Daiichidoku
01-04-2005, 01:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
I agree with Daiich...yikes!

Daiich:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>AS far as aerodynamics go, the K4 and most later 109s were terrible...all sorts of drag inducing intakes and bumps....

In spite of its radial engiine, La7 is MUCH more aerodynamic than the K4 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dont sweat it, Lexxx, youre only agreeing with me on a fact, not an opinion (where, BTW, you are always wrong, http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif)

Bull_dog_
01-04-2005, 06:11 PM
What plane is most dominant in tournament victories? What plane do I see commonly with the most points? What plane do I see pilots with the highest kill to death ratio?

More often than not they fly Luftwaffe Bf109's...particularly G-6A/S, G-10 and K-4

There are those luftwaffe pilots that would want you to think their mounts aren't any good...they are protecting a good thing...but a well flown 109 is untouchable between about 3500-6500 meters by other prop planes...below that, Yak's La's etc can deal with it and above that range Spits, Mustangs and even Thunderbolts will have an advantage.

If I were in a fuball down low, I would fly a La and kick butt, however if there was distance between the airfields, there is no way to touch a K-4 if the pilot knows energy....by the way, those Mk108's are the most devastating weapon in game outside of maybe 4 hispano's on a C corsair/Hurricane C model...just get close http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif be sure

Atomic_Marten
01-04-2005, 06:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bull_dog_:
If I were in a fuball down low, I would fly a La and kick butt, however if there was distance between the airfields, there is no way to touch a K-4 if the pilot knows energy....by the way, those Mk108's are the most devastating weapon in game outside of maybe 4 hispano's on a C corsair/Hurricane C model...just get close http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif be sure <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would choose Spitfire IXc with 25%fuel for that action http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif (italic text). But LA7 is also good mount http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

MuerteColorado
01-04-2005, 06:43 PM
point 1: LA7 is low altitude fighter. it sucks above 6k high.At 2k the LA7 is a killer.

point 2: K4 is a high altitude fighter your not supposed to turn fight with it below about 4k. the K4 is awesome. it has a one hit kill weapon and is a fantastic boom and zoom plane.fly it like a jug.if you want a turn plane fly the 109-AS. the LA7 cannot catch a K4 at normal operating altitudes of k4.

the K4 has only one serious deficiency and its not the poor elevator response. if you keep dives shallow and speed high your ok.the serious problem with K4 is actually its asset. its a high altitude fighter but above 7k the k4 is seriously underpowered in game. it cant go vertical no matter how fast you are up there. if you try it your dead. american and british planes all eat K4s for breakfast above 7k high.if you fly a K4 up to fight jugs stangs and spits at 8k you WILL die.

spits...someone mentioned spit... crash. the spit cannon is super fast and super accurate and super high velocity. spits a light plane with great aerodynamics. taking fuel and range out of the equation the spit could be considered the best all around plane in F.B. P.F.

its great low medium and high and has great guns and very good speed. it has no achilles heel.

oh and another thing. K4s have notoriously short fuel in F.B. so most pilots fly it with 75 fuel. try that K4 with 25 fuel and check out the difference. its HUGE. till you run out of fuel...which happens fast.

in conclusion LA7 is not uber. its a pretty average plane in F.B. as it sucks above 5500 meters.

and K4 does not suck it actually is an uber plane. and in warclouds you dont need to turn the K4 you just need one cannon round to hit your opponent and hes messed up real good.

Von_Rat
01-04-2005, 07:00 PM
its extremely hard to bnz in k4 because of its concrete elevator. in a 109g6as its much easier to bnz. why is this, in real life was the k4s elevator that much worse than the g6as?

only one hit with a mk108 usually does squat. multi hits usually required to take out spit p51 or p47.

oh and the k4 does suck, 109g6as is by far better plane in game, it shouldnt be but it is.

WUAF_Badsight
01-04-2005, 07:21 PM
K4 was the hot rod bf109

was more aerodnamically cleaner than any of the MW50 Bf109s . . .. i have yet to read of any reason why the K4 should supposedly handel the worst , except for the reason of game balance

in theory , it was the most "fixed" of all the late Bf109's

Fish6891
01-04-2005, 07:29 PM
You will never achieve r0xx0rz effectiveness flying a 109. Only through piloting the Focke Wulfs can you ever hope to achieve such effectiveness, Mondo and Sikira know that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.
Rat, quite flying them 109s, its bad for ya! Come back to the 190 ya blasphemere, you want to, you knows it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
As for you Crash, knowing what a hadcore 109er you are I doubt you'll ever cross over http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif, don't worry tho, you're one of my favorite 109ers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

x__CRASH__x
01-04-2005, 07:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fish6891:
As for you Crash, knowing what a hadcore 109er you are I doubt you'll ever cross over http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif, don't worry tho, you're one of my favorite 109ers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aww, how sweet! I would love to learn more about the 190. I've flown it a few times and failed miserably. If you're offering, I'll take you up on some lessons and fly a few 190 sorties with ya!

x__CRASH__x
01-04-2005, 07:55 PM
and Fish, check your PM.

KGr.HH-Sunburst
01-04-2005, 07:55 PM
im getting more pissed about late 109 uber mk108 jocks with the day.....now ur thinking i fly allied lol ...nope ,normally im in a Dora44 and it takes skill to fly and aim and patience to take out even a P47 at co alt not to mention spits and mustangs...the thing is i need trigger time on target with the dora and spend alot of ammo with those cr@p Mg151s
even spitfires are hard to bring down with them

now everytime im just about to finish a bandit i got 10 n00b 109k's around me spraying with mk108s blowing up my kill. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Well there you have it ,i find 109Ks just as frustrating to have around me as spitfires lol
and from my part all late MW50 bf109s with mk108s can get BANNED http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Friends let Friends fly Fockers http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

WOLFMondo
01-05-2005, 02:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fish6891:
You will never achieve r0xx0rz effectiveness flying a 109. Only through piloting the Focke Wulfs can you ever hope to achieve such effectiveness, Mondo and Sikira know that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the tips fish, much appreciated!http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

TgD Thunderbolt56
01-05-2005, 07:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KGr.HH-Sunburst:
Friends let Friends fly Fockers http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Hehe...he said "Fockers" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Sig.Hirsch
01-05-2005, 08:39 AM
Interesting that you know Bf109 K4 is porked of more than 10 seconds in turning ability at 6000 m + , then i see someone say that it should be banned http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif*

Some should go back to cfs2 or tell openly that they don't give a cr@p about realism ....

Besides , this plane was plainly effective at high alt , and the Mk108 weapon was designed to attack bombers as well as late 109's .
this is not the case for Dora ... don't compare things that are not comparable .
it 's like saying you'll ban the spits because they are interceptors with 2 Hispano's and you'll keep the 51's because their weapon are lighter .
Actually , Mk108 is more undermodelled than correct , if you refer to the the luftwaffe datas wich state the average amount of shells to down a P-51 (1-2) and B-17 (3-5) .
In game you can hit with 5+ shells a P-51 and he's still flying , anyway that doesn't really matter .
what matters is the porked elevator control of the K4 Turning in 33 seconds at 6500 m instead of 24 seconds : That is really a Great Bug

Especially when you have earlier models like G6/AS who have better elevator control , but i know now that not evrybody here want better realism and FM accuracy , when it concerns German planes, except for porking them maybe .

HayateAce
01-05-2005, 09:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sig.Hirsch:
what matters is the porked elevator control of the K4

Especially when you have earlier models like G6/AS who have better elevator control. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe you should consider that the G6/AS, etc have too much elevator control and have been falsely boosted for gameplay. For realism, they should behave more like the K4. Oh Lord would the crying ever get started then.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

HayateAce
01-05-2005, 09:15 AM
Oh and by the way, you had better be glad that Oleg doesn't introduce proper stiff aileron control for the 109 as well. They roll way too much at high speed.

See, you have it better than you think.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

BBB_Hyperion
01-05-2005, 09:31 AM
As HayateAce surely holds the Info to back up all his claims he should post em now or be silent forever. And dont come up with this 109E test.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

EFG_beber
01-05-2005, 09:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HayateAce:
Maybe you should consider that the G6/AS, etc have too much elevator control and have been falsely boosted for gameplay. For realism, they should behave more like the K4. Oh Lord would the crying ever get started then.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Maybe you should consider that the K4 in game have too less elevator control comparated to the real data.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

MEGILE
01-05-2005, 10:49 AM
Trim the elevator on the 109, and you can rip the wing off by pulling on the stick too hard. Be sure.

Trimming works for me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Have no idea if it is realistic or not. But its not all that bad. If you can turn hard enough to the edge of blackout, then that is sufficient.
Can be annoying sometimes though..

Sig.Hirsch
01-05-2005, 11:13 AM
True , with trim it's not 33 seconds , it's 30 seconds at 6000 m , you win 2-3 seconds in turn .

still very far from 24 seconds , don't you think ?

Imagine all the posts and whines if P-51 or Spit were turning in almost 10 seconds more than official source datas lol

Von_Rat
01-05-2005, 12:17 PM
lots of planes roll to fast in game at hi speeds. fix them too.

Daiichidoku
01-05-2005, 02:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sig.Hirsch:
Mk108 is more undermodelled than correct . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You dont REALLY want mor ecorrect 108s, do you? can you live with the jams that would (should) go along with that? Quickly mass produced guns that really werent all that reliable

Give me a Mk 103 anyday, I can live with the ROF...THOSE were reliable weapons

Von_Rat
01-05-2005, 07:11 PM
weren't hispanos notorious for jamming?

Whatsmypassword
01-06-2005, 06:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sig.Hirsch:
True , with trim it's not 33 seconds , it's 30 seconds at 6000 m , you win 2-3 seconds in turn .

still very far from 24 seconds , don't you think ?

Imagine all the posts and whines if P-51 or Spit were turning in almost 10 seconds more than official source datas lol <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



It is interesting - just read in the memoirs of a Russian ace (V.A. Kuznetsov, Silver Wings, 1972) that Yak-1 turns in 17 seconds.

He wrote about the real case of the VVS requirements. In 1942 the commander of the VVS air fighter division (= US airwing) colonel Zhukov arrived in his fighter regiment near Moscow and asked some pilot whose plane was recently lightly damaged in the combat to make a test flight over the air field. The pilot made a couple of turns at 1000 meters. In the first turn he turned his Yak-1 in 25 second, in the second - in 20 seconds. When the pilot landed he was heavily criticized by the colonel who got into the plane himself and made four turns over the airfield in 17 seconds each (at 1 km). Please note that it was an ordinary fighter regiment which even was not a Guard's one.
http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/kuznetsov_va/06.html

http://www.icarusgold.com/s/yak1-3.jpg

WOLFMondo
01-06-2005, 07:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Von_Rat:
weren't hispanos notorious for jamming? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Early on they were, later in the war they were extremely reliable. They got allot of in the field testinghttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Abbuzze
01-06-2005, 09:13 AM
Yeah, its allways hard to see a plane with an old prewar construction getting aerodynamical worse, needed bulges for weapons, a bigger bulgy cowling, cause the newer engines didn´t fit anymore under the old one... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
Gears without complete covering like the newer fighter had. A terrible coolerlayout under the wing....

Allways hard so see ladies getting old http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
http://airwar.hihome.com/gwp/spitfire/pic-spit-mk14.jpg

Saburo_0
01-06-2005, 09:21 AM
I'm curious, it's been said that 109 k should turn at 24 sec. does anyone have a chart they could share with turn times for various 109 models ?

thank you,

x__CRASH__x
01-07-2005, 12:32 PM
Welcome to the Dark Side, Mondo! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif