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View Full Version : How to use american .50 cal setups?



andrew8412
01-16-2011, 07:33 PM
I have pretty good accuracy, usually between 6%-8% but I simply can not for the life of me bring down targets using the wing loaded .50 setups used on planes like the F4F and P-40. I cause plenty of smoking engines and fuel leaks but getting anything more seems impossible. Earlier today I put over 150 bullets into a plane without shooting it down when 2-4 cannon shots would have taken it out no problem.

I try to shoot from my convergence but it doesn't make the slightest difference. How the hell am I supposed to get kills with these pea shooters?

andrew8412
01-16-2011, 07:33 PM
I have pretty good accuracy, usually between 6%-8% but I simply can not for the life of me bring down targets using the wing loaded .50 setups used on planes like the F4F and P-40. I cause plenty of smoking engines and fuel leaks but getting anything more seems impossible. Earlier today I put over 150 bullets into a plane without shooting it down when 2-4 cannon shots would have taken it out no problem.

I try to shoot from my convergence but it doesn't make the slightest difference. How the hell am I supposed to get kills with these pea shooters?

ElAurens
01-16-2011, 07:50 PM
I have no trouble killing with the .50 Brownings.

What is your convergence set at? Anything longer than 225 to 250 meters is too far.

Another issue is the rather rudimentary damage model of most aircraft currently in IL2/46. This definitely gives an advantage to cannon armed aircraft. The much more detailed DM of the new sim will change this a lot.

Also aim for wing roots and engines.

WTE_Galway
01-16-2011, 08:35 PM
As in real life shoot close and sustain the fire walking it towards the critical spots with rudder.

You have a lot more ammo than a cannon equipped plane so make use of it.

0.50 cal is not brilliant for snap shots but really starts to work for when you can maintain a firing solution.

Romanator21
01-16-2011, 10:15 PM
.50 cals are definitely effective, but it takes a slightly different technique. I wouldn't say they are harder to use than cannons, because I find I get few kills with cannons (I am forced to click off one or two rounds at a time, and generally make fewer kills per sortie due to short ammo supply).

I find I use a convergence of 200m or less. It's better to get a sustained firing solution of a second or so. American fighters are good BnZers so simply dive on your opponent and let 'em have it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

In 4.10 the pilots are now very vulnerable. Aim for the pilot/engine/wingroot whenever possible. With 50 cals you're looking for PKs, engine seizures, and fuel tank fires. De-winging is less common than with cannon, but still occurs with reasonable frequency http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ba5tard5word
01-16-2011, 10:59 PM
Set your convergence to either 150 or 200. Try either and see which one seems to work best for you. When shooting, wait until you get in as close as possible, like 200 meters or closer (200m is .20 on the little data tag on each plane). Don't shoot until you are pretty confident you'll get hits in. If you're unsure, shoot little bursts to try and see if you need to correct your position. Shoot bursts in general because fighters will bounce all of the place trying to evade you, so you just need to nibble away at your enemy.

If you can, try and hit engines and wing roots, but most of the time you can't do that with fighters (but you definitely can with bombers) because fighters are small and will be evading all over the place.

This is what I do and it has really improved my performance even with .30 cals. I used to have my convergence at 500 and would start shooting when enemies were 300m away...sure I'd get hits but my bullets wouldn't do much damage and most of them would miss. Getting in close really helps increase your hit rate and makes bullets hit a lot harder.

Erkki_M
01-16-2011, 11:19 PM
Browning M2 and Berezin 12,7 have the best ballistics of all guns in the game.... And they're both very effective, for machine guns.

You dont need to de-wing anything to get kills, as a good burst from 6 o clock is likely to curt all his control cables, kill pilot(190's pilot can be killed from dead 6, little more difficult with a 109, you need an angle), engine and put holes everywhere. You can consistently kill a Bf 109 for every 1,5 or so bursts even with just the 4 guns of the P51 B/C.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeqzMXtqcss

However, I think WWV air quake style MP games favor cannons, because theres no way to surprise the enemy and getting the firing position is nearly trivial when you can see through your own fuselage. Historical and realistic use provides historical results...

I use a 140m convergence myself.

M_Gunz
01-17-2011, 06:45 AM
Shoot from deflection, you don't have to get close and stay there. Your bullets will be more effective against the cockpit and engine of a fighter. It takes more gunnery practice, true, but you can't keep a large speed advantage +and+ stay directly behind within 200m at the same time. Of course the same works better with 2+ 20mm but you work with what you have.

Woke_Up_Dead
01-17-2011, 02:16 PM
I'm not a 50-cal expert, but if they are anything like the .303's then the solution might be really simple: get closer. I'm currently flying an offline campaign in Mk I Hurricanes (8 303's in the wings); on the first two missions I was shooting at Stukas from about 200m and had enough ammo for only one, maybe two kills. Then I tried getting closer, within 100 m, and wow, what a difference. Even with my convergence still set at 200m I managed to make one of them explode with a one second burst.

DKoor
01-17-2011, 02:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by andrew8412:
I have pretty good accuracy, usually between 6%-8% but I simply can not for the life of me bring down targets using the wing loaded .50 setups used on planes like the F4F and P-40. I cause plenty of smoking engines and fuel leaks but getting anything more seems impossible. Earlier today I put over 150 bullets into a plane without shooting it down when 2-4 cannon shots would have taken it out no problem.

I try to shoot from my convergence but it doesn't make the slightest difference. How the hell am I supposed to get kills with these pea shooters? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK see this for a start;

http://www.filefactory.com/fil...koor43_4xfm2_408.zip (http://www.filefactory.com/file/b50bh2e/n/dkoor43_4xfm2_408.zip)

Long story short (I'll leave pathetic parts out of my story)

-don't fly on arcade servers, people fight & shoot in burning/dwinged planes there, arcade are filled with supermen, even people on serious servers will try to avoid bailing at all costs (while in reality they would bail in no time).

-smoking plane=your victory. That means as much as 1 bullet in fuel tank of average Japanese plane. If someone thinks he will survive on fuel leaking or smoke emitting plane in PTO, he is most likely a delusional individual.
No you don't have to dewing/explode it to claim a kill.

-offline, you own ANYTHING with .50s. Set up your conv nicely and open fire when in range. If you wont I'll post more tracks, for instance I easily down 4 bombers with P-51 and still have ammo left. Hit where it hurts.

PS. check also first track in my sig.

deskpilot
01-18-2011, 04:46 PM
+1 to all those who said get closer. I set 200m and no more for 50 cals and they can be lethal at convergence. I'd also echo the comment re the hurricane 's 8 .303 brownings . I'd set 150 metres for that plane and can bring down planes when I hit at convergence. it's really the convergence that's the important bit and getting close.

WTE_Galway
01-18-2011, 05:59 PM
USMC pilot and Medal of Honor winner Joe Foss on shooting with the F4F.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Interview with Joes Foss, MoH, USMC

http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Aircraft/VMF-121/

Q. How close do you have to come to do effective damage?

A. When we started out, all our shooting was out of range. We would begin on the enemy a quarter of a mile away, and by the time we actually got into range we'd used up our ammunition. Then we started getting in there from 300 yards to 50 foot off, and really started hitting them. Then we moved it down so that we'd shoot right at 100 yards - then you can't miss. If you're off to one side or the other, just kick it on. If you shoot too far off, you scare 'em!

If you keep your tracers out of there - the Jap pilot shoots. I've seen him shoot half a mile off; they just keep shooting until they go on range, and they're still shooting whan they pass you. They really get rid of the ammunition!

I talked to the boys when a new outfit would come in. When you talk to a man before he goes out the first time, it doesn't do any good; but after he's been out the first time or the first two times, then you can talk to him. He knows what you're talking about. I'd just tell them, "Get in there, really get them in your sights, and really shoot close." I told one group that, and every flight scored on the trip. They'd all had a couple of combats before; they were shooting away out of range - 500 or 600 yards.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

DKoor
01-19-2011, 06:08 AM
Three cases;

1-In fast boom and zooms
2-classic ambushes
3-to scare/clear friendly 6

...it is actually preferable that you open fire deliberately too early on unsuspecting target, but I'm afraid that isn't preferable anywhere else (or at least I can't think of another scenario).

Fast boom and zoom, due to its nature, and speed difference it is possible that your gunnery calculation may be off because all happens really fast, so there is no space for last second corrections so it is always smart idea to start shooting from say 500-600m as you will be in range of convergence in roughly 2-3 seconds at most if bnz is executed well.

Classic ambush, similar to the bnz although you gain more slower on your target usually from dead 6 below (to avoid detection); with this one you simply want a lot of "trigger time" on target so this one pass of surprise really counts (i.e. E/A destroyed).
You can afford it; E/A wont react immediately to your staccato, I've witnessed it many times with rather big smile on my face http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, believe it or not average human reacts, and not very well, after 2-3 seconds at best. So shooting from 300m up to your desired convergence will probably harvest the best results.

Clearing 6 doesn't need any explanation, E/A will hardly have the comfortable situation so that they have a luxury of actually not reacting to the tracers near them.

andrew8412
01-19-2011, 08:07 AM
Sorry if my first post sounded pretty whiny. I was still traumatized over the 150 bullet incident. I've had some counselling and feel much better now.

My fundamental problem seems to be dealing with the convergence of wing mounted weaponry. When the .50s land a burst at their convergence they have devastating results, frequently severing wings and exploding fuel tanks. However outside of convergence they seem to be largely ineffectual.

The American planes mounting them are mostly BnZers and during high speed bounces the window in which I'll be within convergence is absolutely minimum. This is exasperated by the fact that it can be very difficult to accurately judge ranges against unknown aircraft and wingspans. (I play on full switch)

Ba5tard5word
01-19-2011, 10:11 AM
Well I would play offline with the data tags (not sure what they're called, it's the little HUD tags you see on all planes listing their name and type and distance from you) and try and get used to what planes look like at certain distances--see how their wings line up in your gunsight reticle when they are at 200m or closer (.20 on the data tag).

With .50 cals really I would say getting in close is more important than convergence. Setting convergence to 150m to 200m helps, but just getting your plane to 200m or closer is the main trick with MG's of any kind.

You don't really need to BnZ with American planes like Wildcats and Hellcats, they will keep up pretty well with Zeros and Ki-43's and let you get close to them.

M_Gunz
01-19-2011, 12:18 PM
In some 50 cal planes, you don't want to get co-speed with most targets simply because their maneuver speed is well below yours. And to follow along behind them trying to get and stay close to convergence is --- well if they'll oblige you by staying in your best speed range then go for it but otherwise you will be at a maneuver disadvantage.

DKoor
01-20-2011, 05:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
In some 50 cal planes, you don't want to get co-speed with most targets simply because their maneuver speed is well below yours. And to follow along behind them trying to get and stay close to convergence is --- well if they'll oblige you by staying in your best speed range then go for it but otherwise you will be at a maneuver disadvantage. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>+1

For instance P-40, B.239, P-39, Spitfire... even P-47 & P-51 to some degree but depending on E/A type.
All aircraft types that enjoy sitting on E/A's six and comfortably pumping lead into the latter. Average Germans, Italians and some others do not stand much chance is such scenario.