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KCizzll
08-04-2010, 11:19 PM
I think the first AC had it right with the different levels of guard awareness but AC2 blend system was far superior. We need... a blend!

So keep the 3 levels of guard:
1. lazy/unaware guard (hand not on sword): Narrow field of vision, strolling pace, slow to notice Enzio (yellow arrow).

2. Professional guard (hand on hilt): Recognizes Enzio a little faster march and slightly wider field/length of vision.

3. Aggressive guard (sword out): 180 degree field of view, runs, Will attack if he sees anything out of the ordinary, like you climbing/running.

Now most random guards would start lazy (outside of scripted assassinations and such) but would become professional if they see you running/falling/climbing or acting weird.

If a guard hears civilians screaming he becomes professional and may come to investigate if he's not guarding something important.

If a guard sees a dead body he becomes aggressive. He'd eventually return to professional after a few minutes but would take a long time before he'd become lazy again. So causing a ruckus would create 'hot zones' of aware guards that'd you'd need to be more careful of.

Essentially walking past lazy guards wouldn't be very hard (easier than AC2 when notorious but harder than anonymous AC2), pro guards would require some effort (same as AC2) from hirelings or blends, and aggro guards would need to be handled very carefully.

Anyway that's my vision of an ideal guard system, comments/critiques are welcome.

KCizzll
08-04-2010, 11:19 PM
I think the first AC had it right with the different levels of guard awareness but AC2 blend system was far superior. We need... a blend!

So keep the 3 levels of guard:
1. lazy/unaware guard (hand not on sword): Narrow field of vision, strolling pace, slow to notice Enzio (yellow arrow).

2. Professional guard (hand on hilt): Recognizes Enzio a little faster march and slightly wider field/length of vision.

3. Aggressive guard (sword out): 180 degree field of view, runs, Will attack if he sees anything out of the ordinary, like you climbing/running.

Now most random guards would start lazy (outside of scripted assassinations and such) but would become professional if they see you running/falling/climbing or acting weird.

If a guard hears civilians screaming he becomes professional and may come to investigate if he's not guarding something important.

If a guard sees a dead body he becomes aggressive. He'd eventually return to professional after a few minutes but would take a long time before he'd become lazy again. So causing a ruckus would create 'hot zones' of aware guards that'd you'd need to be more careful of.

Essentially walking past lazy guards wouldn't be very hard (easier than AC2 when notorious but harder than anonymous AC2), pro guards would require some effort (same as AC2) from hirelings or blends, and aggro guards would need to be handled very carefully.

Anyway that's my vision of an ideal guard system, comments/critiques are welcome.

primerib69
08-05-2010, 12:42 AM
Great job on this, broski! I think instead of "Professional" it should be "aware". Also I think if a guard sees a dead body, he should turn aware instead. Unless you are close to the body, your weapon is out, or there are multiple dead bodies. Otherwise, I agree with everything else.

I think Brotherhood should have a separate alert system that works like the alert system in Metal Gear Solid because if it claims to be a stealth game, that alert system will really reinforce it, and tell the players to make sure they are stealthy.

EzioAssassin51
08-05-2010, 12:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cronstintein:
I think the first AC had it right with the different levels of guard awareness but AC2 blend system was far superior. We need... a blend! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As we already have! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

Didn't you or Prim notice this is exactly the same as the AC1 notoriety/awareness system?

KCizzll
08-05-2010, 12:58 AM
...yes I stated as such! Basically the guard system from AC1 but the blend system from AC2. But in AC1 high guard awareness basically just meant holding A and walking REAL SLOW.
My solution is trying to take the best of both worlds.


@prime A city bell or maybe district wide, putting the guards on alert there. Not sure what would cause it besides the big assassinations, surely not every conflict would cause a rise to arms.
You could end it by silencing the fellow ringing it.
EDIT: maybe when you engage a group of guards they send a runner to the bell tower, who you can silence to avoid the alarm.

primerib69
08-05-2010, 03:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by EzioAssassin51:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cronstintein:
I think the first AC had it right with the different levels of guard awareness but AC2 blend system was far superior. We need... a blend! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As we already have! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

Didn't you or Prim notice this is exactly the same as the AC1 notoriety/awareness system? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whaaaa???? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">A city bell or maybe district wide, putting the guards on alert there. Not sure what would cause it besides the big assassinations, surely not every conflict would cause a rise to arms.
You could end it by silencing the fellow ringing it. Maybe when you engage a group of guards they send a runner to the bell tower, who you can silence to avoid the alarm. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now that I think about it, it wouldn't work very well. Hahaha nevermind then! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

AMuppetMatt
08-05-2010, 03:16 AM
I agree with hat you've both said in principle, but I liked the way that guards took time to notice you in AC2 as the meter filled up to yellow and then red. That said, I felt it filled up too slowly and it was far too easy to get past guards talking or patrolling the the street, even if you were notorious. All you had to do was cross over to the opposite side of the road, and by the time the meter was nearly full, you got out of their range of vision.

That needs to be changed so it is harder to do that and you actually have to blend in the crowd.

Your notoriety needs to go up quicker too. If you don't hide a body or someone sees you kill a NPC your notoriety needs to go right up. I'm fed up of being able to walk from one end of Venice to the other after killing hundreds of guards without anyone giving a second glance. Who cares if it was done all in low profile... if all these people turn up missing then the city would be put on alert, even if no-one had even seen the kills or bodies.

KCizzll
08-05-2010, 02:49 PM
I would go so far as to say if you kill guards with witnesses that'd make you notorious right there!
Unlikely they're going to just let that go if they've anything like today's cop mentality.

Xanatos2007
08-05-2010, 03:02 PM
It's shocking how after all this time people still manage to misspell 'Ezio'. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif
Still, nice idea. Hopefully the AC team will take note of this.

notafanboy
08-05-2010, 03:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xanatos2007:
It's shocking how after all this time people still manage to misspell 'Ezio'. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif
Still, nice idea. Hopefully the AC team will take note of this. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
and they still say "ac3" and do you remember when they announced ac2 many people thought altair moved to italy http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Xanatos2007
08-05-2010, 08:16 PM
At the age of 310.

AMuppetMatt
08-06-2010, 06:51 AM
We can't completely rule out Altair hiding around somewhere... that Apple is awfully healthy for those wanting to live for centuries http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Also, forgot to mention, it goes without saying that it needs to be harder to lower your notoriety... there's no point ripping down one poster and killing one guy and all of a sudden being able to walk around scot free... in needs to change

Xanatos2007
08-06-2010, 07:01 AM
And let there be consequences for getting into fights! I find it incredibly weird and unrealistic when nobody seems to give a toss when Ezio slaughters 50 guards in the middle of the street yet he's always somehow a suspected criminal when he stealth-assassinates one lone guard in an isolated area.

KCizzll
08-06-2010, 07:06 AM
I would argue against being able to become anonymous at all.
My personal preference, though I'm sure others may have enjoyed being anonymous. Since it is a CHOICE I'm not vehemently against it, though I do think it's somewhat lame.
I would prefer a sliding scale with a minimum amount of notoriety that still leaves you recognizable.

AMuppetMatt
08-06-2010, 07:10 AM
I think if we all want to see how the crowd should behave we need to play AC1 again.

Notice what happens if there's a fight in the street. People RUN AWAY. That's generally what people do if there are swordsmen lopping each others heads off, especially if one of them's Ezio and he just turns round after slaughtering five guards. In AC1 people ran in blind panic.
In AC2 they make a little fight circle like it's a couple of 10 year old's "fighting" in the play ground.

Again, if a body falls from a rooftop, in AC1 that pretty much clears the street out. The number of times in AC2 a body has fallen from the roof and someone in the room with me has just laughed how people kind of stop, turn to look at it, then just carry on like bodies fall out of the sky all the time. Sometimes, people don't even bother stopping or looking, they just keep walking or buying. While they made the crowd more "organic" in its movements, Ubi didn't have make em thick (either that or they're incredibly desensitized).

This has gone slightly off topic from me here, but I feel it links into the notoriety system somewhat.
The more people you make panic, the higher and quicker you're notoriety goes up!


Cononstintein, agree with you 100%. An even when you ARE notorious, the music gets all dark and evil and just ends up getting on my nerves. I can't stay that way, so I either rip down four posters (easy peasy and boring when walking past guards that don't give a damn) or I turn the music off (something I don't want to do, seeing as it's really well composed music)


They made us able to pick up bodies for a reason! If we hide bodies in hay stacks and roof gardens, our notoriety should go down (a little bit) or our notoriety shouldn't increase. Make it lifelike. If we do a "high profile" assassination and nobody's around to see it, don't make our notoriety go up! If we do a stealth assassination in the middle of a market where 100 people can see the body but not the killer, then our notoriety needs to go up quite a bit! If we assasinate someone and then hide the body in the river or roof garden or hay stack and nobodies seen the body... that's the end of it. No consequences.

Notoriety shouldn't be controlled by WHAT you do, it should be controlled by WHO sees what you do and the consequences of your actions.

itsamea-mario
08-06-2010, 08:02 AM
i agree that some of the ways your notoriety goes up are just stupid, if no one sees, or hears you kill someone, how does everyone instantly notice, i also agree that there should be a point to hiding bodies. one way id like to see notoriety or 'suspision' affected is by the blood on your clothes, in ac2 ezio did occasionaly get blood on his hands, but it faded, i think it should stay, the more dramatic (high profile kills) or the more you kill, the more blood will be on you, and obviously when guards see this they will get suspicious and eventually chase you, they way to resolve the issue would be to was the sleaves in fountains and such located throughout the city, or jumping into a river.

i want the methods for reducing notoriety to be a bit more fun, harder but fun.

AMuppetMatt
08-06-2010, 08:16 AM
Agree with the blood on hands idea... maybe have a small, basic meter to indicate that on screen as well as a visual representation on your hands? (Might be hard just to have the actual blood, seeing as you can't always look that closely, especially if you have a small screen).

Is there anyway to ensure a dev even just glances at this thread, I think that we've all raised valid points here that would make the game
1) More lifelike
2) More challenging without people complaining about lacking the "twitch reflexes"
3) More fun

KCizzll
08-06-2010, 03:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> The more people you make panic, the higher and quicker you're notoriety goes up! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

THAT is a really good idea. The more panic you cause, the higher your notoriety. Perfectly logical and I think more fun.

The blood thing is an interesting idea, never tried it before so it's hard to say how that'd play out. Constantly looking for water might not be so fun, though I guess if you can re-dye your clothes as well that wouldn't be so bad.

About Devs: Oh the elusive forum ghosts, do they ever read forums? No idea! I wouldn't hold my breath hoping for a response from them though. At this point they're mostly cleaning up systems already put in game so I would hope that they consider ideas like this for AC3 rather than brotherhood.
EDIT: Plus they're now in serious crunch mode to get rid of as many bugs as possible by launch.

X10J
08-06-2010, 04:46 PM
Yea, but looking for water would be better, i think, than posters. And it would make sense to have water in a greater variety of places, as opposed to posters on second story ledges where no one would see.

also: I never got how killing a witness lowered noteriaty

KCizzll
08-06-2010, 05:34 PM
Ooh good point: water &gt;&gt;&gt; posters!

And at ground level you'd need to be careful approaching them vs the rooftop wanted posters http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Well I could see if you commit a murder, there's one witness and you silence them before they can tell anyone it would lower notoriety. but as currently implemented? Makes no sense.
That said, I really enjoyed chasing the NPCs be it thieves, couriers or the templars in the tombs.

EzioAssassin51
08-06-2010, 05:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by X10J:
Yea, but looking for water would be better, i think, than posters. And it would make sense to have water in a greater variety of places, as opposed to posters on second story ledges where no one would see.

also: I never got how killing a witness lowered noteriaty </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You man the corrupt politician? Yeah, that was a pathertic way to lower notoriety!

But AMuppetMatt, those ideas are perfect and realy should be in the game along with the blood and the water! If they did have the blood/water thing, then they probably would have to put a lot of fountains around the place!

AMuppetMatt
08-07-2010, 03:16 AM
As far as I'm concerned a fountain or river or some area of water in a city makes more sense than a hay stack on every street corner http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Thanks for the positive feedback btw, it's nice to be recognized as even mildly competent when it comes to ideas... let's hope any devs that eventually (hopefully) view this post agree with what we've all said. It's going to be a bit late for Brotherhood, but hopefully they can incoprorate some of these much needed improvements in.

AC3 FTW http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

itsamea-mario
08-07-2010, 03:27 AM
well in AC1 there were sort of water fountain tap things all over the place, and often in back streets, thats sort of where i got that idea,

although in AC2 i never got how he could become completely submerged in water and then come out and run up a wall.

i just dont want to see those stupid posters again, especially rooftop ones they were just silly.

AMuppetMatt
08-07-2010, 03:31 AM
I didn't mind the posters, but we can't have them on rooftops, you're average person doesn't go up onto a rooftop... I'm not really sure how Ubi decided that was a good idea, it makes absolutely no sense to anyone. Posters I think should stay, but they shouldn't lower notoriety as much and should definitely STAY AT GROUND LEVEL.

itsamea-mario
08-07-2010, 03:48 AM
somebody earlier mentioned 'hot spots' , areas where guards where more alert. i know he was referencing how guards became more aware in the first game, in an area someone had died.

this got me thinking, maybe they could make that an actual feature, for example, the more crimes you commit (killing, stealing basically) in a certain area the more suspicious guards are of you in that area. maybe rather than a city wide notoriety for killing a few people in one area, just increse notoriety in that area. maybe this could be represented by shading on the map, and the way to reduce the suspicion in these areas would be to hide bodies of the dead, bribes etc. however big things like killing a main target, people who are usually important for the city, would increase the notoriety all over the city, or just all over the district or a large are, same if you have a big fight where you end up killing like 30 guards that would create a wide area of notoriety, and maybe areas where your loved would be sort of quiet areas, or areas where you have done a great deal to help the people then in these areas when the civilians see guards chasing you on ground level they do what they can to try and block the way of the guards, say a group of citizens would walk infront of the guards to help you.
this could be monitored much in the same way as the notoriety, why should there just be negative notoriety when ezio does so much to help the people, i think there should also be another sort of meter, this would increse the chances of citizens helping you, and decrese the price of hiring thieves and such, also maybe reducing shop prices in those areas.

just an idea, what do you think?

AMuppetMatt
08-07-2010, 04:34 AM
I came up with an idea similar to that ages ago, where notoriety only increased by district. Your idea is kind of a blend of that one (I know you knew nothing about it, don't worry, not having a go http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) and AC1 where there were vigilantes isn't it?

Hey, I like it, might be hard to incorporate into the game, but I like it nonetheless.

itsamea-mario
08-07-2010, 09:27 AM
yeah i realised that the civilians helping you idea was a bit like the vigilantes, but i was thinking they should be a bit more subtle, like just getting in the way rather than physically grabbing the guards.

Grand_Arcanum
08-09-2010, 12:06 AM
I actually prefer the notoriety system in AC2 as is, for the most part. I think that, once you become notorious, the number of guards should increase, and there should be platoons actively looking for you, like in late game AC1. Once you are notorious, lowering your notoriety should be more difficult; instead of witnesses, heralds, and posters lowering notoriety by 75%, 50%, and 25%, they should be lowered by, say, 40%, 20%, and 5%. Heralds should also be more expensive.

Second, there should be high profile zones where elite guards are always on the lookout for Ezio, most appropriately at Assassination sites and important buildings.

primerib69
08-09-2010, 12:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Grand_Arcanum:
I actually prefer the notoriety system in AC2 as is, for the most part. I think that, once you become notorious, the number of guards should increase, and there should be platoons actively looking for you, like in late game AC1. Once you are notorious, lowering your notoriety should be more difficult; instead of witnesses, heralds, and posters lowering notoriety by 75%, 50%, and 25%, they should be lowered by, say, 40%, 20%, and 5%. Heralds should also be more expensive.

Second, there should be high profile zones where elite guards are always on the lookout for Ezio, most appropriately at Assassination sites and important buildings. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You do know how big a platoon is, right?

EzioAssassin51
08-09-2010, 12:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Grand_Arcanum:
Lowered by, say, 40%, 20%, and 5%. Heralds should also be more expensive. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah i agree, but i don't think the politians was a good choice for a way to lower notoriety. Makes no sense!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Second, there should be high profile zones where elite guards are always on the lookout for Ezio, most appropriately at Assassination sites and important buildings </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sort of like the Restricted Zones? Yeah, we should have way more of those, especially while in Rome! Like half of the Vatican should be restricted. As in, the churches mostly!

austin128
08-09-2010, 03:59 AM
@itsamea-mario
I came up with something like that in the original AC3 and Beyond thread (RIP). My idea was to have you be notorious in the small area that you killed someone in, and it would slowly spread to different areas, so it would start really small and if left unchecked would grow until it got as large as the game world. The larger your notoriety got, the harder it would be to get it down. Someone came up with an idea that you would have to do randomly generated assassination missions to get it down if it got really farspread.

I think combining these ideas with some of yours (like the "negative notoriety" system) would be awesome.

austin128
08-09-2010, 04:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by primerib69:
Great job on this, broski! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif primerib, you crack me up.

primerib69
08-10-2010, 12:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AMuppetMatt:
Agree with the blood on hands idea... maybe have a small, basic meter to indicate that on screen as well as a visual representation on your hands? (Might be hard just to have the actual blood, seeing as you can't always look that closely, especially if you have a small screen). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just remember that too much blood and gore could move Brotherhood past the M rating/ Pegi-18 rating.

EzioAssassin51
08-10-2010, 01:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by primerib69:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AMuppetMatt:
Agree with the blood on hands idea... maybe have a small, basic meter to indicate that on screen as well as a visual representation on your hands? (Might be hard just to have the actual blood, seeing as you can't always look that closely, especially if you have a small screen). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just remember that too much blood and gore could move Brotherhood past the M rating/ Pegi-18 rating. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lol, having a bit of blood on your hands isn't going to push it past it's rating! We alreayd get blood on us, except it goes away. They are just saying it stays for a while!

itsamea-mario
08-10-2010, 02:30 AM
yeah i didn't mean, that after a few fights you start getting covered in entrails, and that blood starts to flow down the street. like EzioAssassin51 said, you already get blood on your hands.

austin128
08-10-2010, 02:36 AM
@primerib69
I don't know, have you seen Rambo IV? That was really over-the-top and it got an R-rating.

primerib69
08-10-2010, 03:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by austin128:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by primerib69:
Great job on this, broski! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif primerib, you crack me up. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Haha thanks bro! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by itsamea-mario:
Yeah, i didn't mean that after a few fights you start getting covered in entrails, and that blood starts to flow down the street. Like EzioAssassin51 said, you already get blood on your hands. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know I meant like, not like too over-the-top gore or anything. That stuff's gross, and honestly, it would turn me away from the game. But yeah I know what you meant, I was just saying http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by austin128:
I don't know, have you seen Rambo IV? That was really over-the-top and it got an R-rating. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, I haven't gotten to that one yet. But from what you are saying, I don't want to! Hahaha Bros stay away from that stuff, unless they are with their girl and are trying to show how tough they are! Back to what you said, that game shouldn't be too gory, like I stated above.

notafanboy
08-10-2010, 11:09 AM
how about bloody weapons ?

PhiIs1618033
08-10-2010, 11:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by notafanboy:
how about bloody weapons ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Wasn't that already done? I think it gets removed when you sheathe the weapon, like there's some kind of cloth in the sheath.:P

The 'blood on the hands'-idea is quite a good one, I must say, but I think it'd be all over the body more than just on the hands. Not this incredibly gore 'blood, flesh and brains'-thing, but just specks of blood and you'd have to wash it out quickly or visit an allies' house to change clothes.

Also, the posters in ACII are, excuse my french, ******ed. There are about 3 posters in the whole game on ground level. That should be a lot more realistic. Also, it would be nice if the notoriety meter had a bit more 'levels'. Currently, it's divided in twelve small steps (that's a guess, but I think it's pretty close), but it'd be nice if it'd actually take more than twelve civilians robbed of their purse to become truly notorious. Also, a high-profile kill in a busy location ought to make you instantly notorious. Make it so that if there are more people in the area, you notoriety goes up faster.

I understand that this is all very difficult to code, but I think the implementation of 'high notority effect'-areas is sufficiently easy to do (you'd have to outline areas and have a multiplication factor, which seems relatively easy) and would be a great leap forward in the aspect of notoriety.


I'll get back on the guard system and expand a bit more on the notoriety, but I have to go now.

itsamea-mario
08-10-2010, 12:02 PM
i know what your saying about the blood, i did mean that after a few assassination, or if your in full on combat, then blood would go on your robes, and this would be harder to get off (Ezio use DAZ) and i understand what you mean about the nororiety, and i agree it should be less rigid, atm its murder is a certain amount, theivery is, .etc. blatent crimes in full view of a crowd and guards, should make you more notorious, just like discreet kills where you hide the body so no one knows, should not make notorious at all, also pickpocketing shouldn't make you notorious unless your caught.

notafanboy
08-10-2010, 12:32 PM
ezio didnīt have a sheath ...... altair had one ...

Adam151184
08-10-2010, 12:37 PM
I remember in AC2 where if you killed an archer who had saw you and identified you as an assassin with your hidden blade (just before he draws his sword) you automatically gained notority whether anyone saw it or not. But if you killed him with your sword which only takes one slash if he hasn't drawn his sword you didn't gain any notority.

itsamea-mario
08-10-2010, 01:07 PM
yeah i noticed that alot aswell, that the majority of the time killing an enemy with a sword or dagger, even if they dont have theirs out wont give you any notoriety, hell ive killed about ten guards in combat and not recieved any notoriety, that should really be changed.

austin128
08-10-2010, 03:36 PM
I totally agree with the stealing thing. If no one catches you, then why does your notoriety go up?

EzioAssassin51
08-11-2010, 02:18 AM
But i liked how your notoriety went up when guards ran away, up if you killed them when theya are running, your notoriety should go down!

PhiIs1618033
08-11-2010, 03:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by itsamea-mario:
i know what your saying about the blood, i did mean that after a few assassination, or if your in full on combat, then blood would go on your robes, and this would be harder to get off (Ezio use DAZ) and i understand what you mean about the nororiety, and i agree it should be less rigid, atm its murder is a certain amount, theivery is, .etc. blatent crimes in full view of a crowd and guards, should make you more notorious, just like discreet kills where you hide the body so no one knows, should make notorious at all, also pickpocketing shouldn't make you notorious unless your caught. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think hiding a body should not have an effect on your notoriety at all, because the disappearance will be noticed after some time. If you blatantly let the body slide of the roof, instead of dropping it in the water, the person who did it (you) is more clear and as such you gain more notoriety. If you hide the body, the disappearance is noticed, but the body is probably never found, which means they can't check if it's you.

Also, I think the system should be more exponential. If you're notorious and a body disappears, people will be much quicker to relate the disappearance to you than if you weren't notorious. Also, I think it ought to be easier to get your notoriety down if it was low and have it get progressively harder as it gets out of hand.
This system might seem a bit too hard (the more notorious you are, the harder it is to get it down, the bigger it becomes), but that's what you get when you let things get out of hand. (I personally enjoy walking around with the Auditore Cape through all cities) It'll motivate players to pay attention to their actions and, I think, to be a more discreet assassin. (ie. one who does not continually kill high-profile in public, then bribe a herald and are anonymous again)

On the stealing, if you pick a few pockets (say, twenty, that's not so much in a big city), then you don't get notorious, but if people all around the district notice that their purses are gone and you're around a lot, you can bet that you'll get more notorious, but not as 'the assassin', but 'the dirty thief'. Consequences of this would be that crowd blending would have a chance of failing (the crowd doesn't like strange people like you anymore because they can steal their purses).
Is this an idea? Positive and negative notoriety (call one fame and the other notoriety, if you will). Both have the same effect on guards, but the type will affect how the crowds react to your actions.


Addressing the guard issue, sometimes you can just walk up to a guard, unsheathe your sword, resheathe it and then kill him with your hidden blade. I don't know, but the unsheathing and sheathing of a sword make a lot of noise, I'm sure the guard ought to notice that. (Implementation wouldn't feature guards getting ears, I think, but more of a 'you do this action, guards look around'-type of code, that makes guards appear to have ears. Anyway, the same type of mechanic used in ACII when you ran on the roofs)
The ideas of having squads walking around searching for the assassin (as seen in AC) and the difference between 'amateur guards', 'professional guards', 'informed amateur guards' and 'informed professional guards' is an excellent idea. Do so much as pass the last one and you've got a squad on your heels and you'd better get out of there before you are killed by the six brutes, six runners, six armoured assassin fodder and one captain. Maybe all give them different outfits so you can see which guard is what level?

City bells are great, I like that, and especially the idea of overtaking the runner and killing him to avoid it. Sort of like the tomb chase sequences is ACII.

EzioAssassin51
08-11-2010, 03:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PhiIs1618033...:
On the stealing, if you pick a few pockets (say, twenty, that's not so much in a big city), then you don't get notorious, but if people all around the district notice that their purses are gone and you're around a lot, you can bet that you'll get more notorious, but not as 'the assassin', but 'the dirty thief'. Consequences of this would be that crowd blending would have a chance of failing (the crowd doesn't like strange people like you anymore because they can steal their purses).
Is this an idea? Positive and negative notoriety (call one fame and the other notoriety, if you will). Both have the same effect on guards, but the type will affect how the crowds react to your actions.

Maybe all give them different outfits so you can see which guard is what level?

City bells are great, I like that, and especially the idea of overtaking the runner and killing him to avoid it. Sort of like the tomb chase sequences is ACII. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That positive or negative thing is stupid! It's like a moral choice system! I was thinking more the notoriety thing turns yellow with the pickpocketing thing and then red with the murder thing!

I also love the idea of the bell chase thing. And Just so you know, guards already have costumes that tell you their level!

PhiIs1618033
08-11-2010, 04:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by EzioAssassin51:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">(long post by me) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That positive or negative thing is stupid! It's like a moral choice system! I was thinking more the notoriety thing turns yellow with the pickpocketing thing and then red with the murder thing! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
How is a moral choice system stupid? If you help people, of course you become more noticed by everyone, but the people are not hostile. A fame/notoriety system would greatly improve crowd reactions, plus it isn't hard to get the basics in (tweaking it is another story altogether). What are your problems with it exactly, because just saying it's stupid, because it's like a moral choice system isn't going to cut it.

austin128
08-11-2010, 04:53 AM
I like the whole "negative notoriety" thing. I think some people might think a moral kinda deal will be bad for AC, since it has a set storyline and they don't want it changed, but if you think about it, in AC2 you could walk around the whole game with the Plain Cape or change it every time you got a new one, and that didn't mess up the set story.

EzioAssassin51
08-11-2010, 04:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PhiIs1618033...:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by EzioAssassin51:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">(long post by me) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That positive or negative thing is stupid! It's like a moral choice system! I was thinking more the notoriety thing turns yellow with the pickpocketing thing and then red with the murder thing! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
How is a moral choice system stupid? If you help people, of course you become more noticed by everyone, but the people are not hostile. A fame/notoriety system would greatly improve crowd reactions, plus it isn't hard to get the basics in (tweaking it is another story altogether). What are your problems with it exactly, because just saying it's stupid, because it's like a moral choice system isn't going to cut it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry for not explaining as such.

You see, a MCS wouldn't work in AC! I think this because, yeah, he helps people and sure, it's good socially to be known for doing good acts, but if he is known all over the town for good things, won't people be saying 'Look! It's the Assassin who has been halping us! HOORAY FOR THE ASSASSIN!' which would most likely attract guard attention. If people are chatting about the vigalanty (sp?) helping them, who the guards are looking for, the guards will end up finding you!

So, even if you've done good things, you'd still turn out notorious because the guards would hear about you doing good things!

Besides, civilians aren't hostile towards you anyway, unless you pickpocket them, so it wouldn't make that much of a difference, because pickpocketing them is bad anyway!


Does that sound too confusing? Sorry if it does. In short, i just don't think a MCS would work in AC, because of those reasons. If an assassin is the talk of the town, he is bound to attract the wrong kind of attention!

EDIT: @Austin - The capes didn't mess up the set storyline because they didn't change the story at all, they just made the game easier, by keeping you incognito! A moral choice system might cause for an alternate ending, which wouldn't work because we are in the Animus and are revisiting memories, not making them! Even if we didn't have the alternate ending, the reasons above show why it's a silly idea!

austin128
08-11-2010, 05:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by EzioAssassin51:
EDIT: @Austin - The capes didn't mess up the set storyline because they didn't change the story at all, they just made the game easier, by keeping you incognito! A moral choice system might cause for an alternate ending, which wouldn't work because we are in the Animus and are revisiting memories, not making them! Even if we didn't have the alternate ending, the reasons above show why it's a silly idea! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I didn't mean changing the storline, just making the civillians more likely to step in the way of the guards. As for people knowing about the assassin, it could be like Batman. They don't know who he is but they know he's there, so when they do see him, they'll intervene. People could say this brings up problems, since once they've seen them they know what he looks like, but you'd think in AC2 after killing 30 guards when you came back to the city they'd know what you look like, but they don't.

thekyle0
08-11-2010, 06:06 AM
Positive and negative notoriety isn't really a moral choice system. Typically moral choice systems are used for a player to "express their individuality" in the game (Provided that, individually, they're one extreme or another). Also, a moral choice system usually has you positioned somewhere on a line and your actions move you from A to B or vice-versa. The way I see this is two separate bars that could both be built up and lessened independently of one another. That not to say they can't be connected in any way. Ex: Some actions might affect both, each in either a positive or negative way.

Another thought, the way that some of the interviewees from E3 describe the setting really makes it seem like the people of Rome feel oppressed under the Borgia. If Ezio is going around removing the Borgia's agents and the Borgia themselves then they will probably feel some kind of mild appreciation.

Maybe being seen doing high profile kills, even if it's Cesare himself, will raise negative notoriety, but doing any assigned assassination (Or some mission that helps the people in some way) without being seen will add to your positive notoriety.

Here's a thought I had. Since it's not just Ezio on his own this time, could the Brotherhood have some manner of collective notoriety?

PhiIs1618033
08-11-2010, 07:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by EzioAssassin51:
Sorry for not explaining as such.

You see, a MCS wouldn't work in AC! I think this because, yeah, he helps people and sure, it's good socially to be known for doing good acts, but if he is known all over the town for good things, won't people be saying 'Look! It's the Assassin who has been halping us! HOORAY FOR THE ASSASSIN!' which would most likely attract guard attention. If people are chatting about the vigalanty (sp?) helping them, who the guards are looking for, the guards will end up finding you!

So, even if you've done good things, you'd still turn out notorious because the guards would hear about you doing good things!

Besides, civilians aren't hostile towards you anyway, unless you pickpocket them, so it wouldn't make that much of a difference, because pickpocketing them is bad anyway!


Does that sound too confusing? Sorry if it does. In short, i just don't think a MCS would work in AC, because of those reasons. If an assassin is the talk of the town, he is bound to attract the wrong kind of attention!

EDIT: @Austin - The capes didn't mess up the set storyline because they didn't change the story at all, they just made the game easier, by keeping you incognito! A moral choice system might cause for an alternate ending, which wouldn't work because we are in the Animus and are revisiting memories, not making them! Even if we didn't have the alternate ending, the reasons above show why it's a silly idea! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
This has been explained by Austin. Doing something exceptional will raise your notoriety, be it good or bad. It's not a moral choice system, it's just the way it works. If you donate two million dollars to the Red Cross, you're bound to come in the news, aren't you? If you kill some important person and get caught, you'll be in the news, but in a negative sense. Whether your actions are positive or negative and the heaviness of it all have social consequences and I think it's not more than logical that this would be implemented in the game, as Ubi tried with the notoriety system. (Which wasn't really a succesful attempt IMO)

austin128
08-11-2010, 07:21 AM
@thekyle
That's how you get assassin recruits, by helping people and the like.
And you're right about not calling it a moral choice system, I think. My bad.
"But everyone was doing it!"

SteelCity999
08-11-2010, 07:42 AM
I agree the notoriety system was a good idea just poorly implemented. It should have taken alot longer to erase all you have done and the guards should be more aware. For instance, early in the game and several points beyond , one minute you are not and the next minute you are notorious and all you have done is trigger a mission. Once you become notorious in city you should stay that way for a long time. I mean lets' face it, if you want to talk about reality, who in their right mind could a guy thats dressed up as Ezio and sticks out from all the other clowns. So one way the devs could fix this is by creating different outfits you could get access to by playing the game - and I'm not talking about just changing the freaking colors. I mean like totally unique outfits that each carry with it a notoriety in each city. This would make sense because once you commit a crime in a certain outfit you are branded in that outfit - change the outfit and your notoriety goes away. If the devs did it right they would force you to play a certain amount of the game with limited outfits and pace them until the end.
Overall this a an area that they could improve to make the game much more challenging - much like the DLCs.

austin128
08-11-2010, 06:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SteelCity999:
I agree the notoriety system was a good idea just poorly implemented. It should have taken alot longer to erase all you have done and the guards should be more aware. For instance, early in the game and several points beyond , one minute you are not and the next minute you are notorious and all you have done is trigger a mission. Once you become notorious in city you should stay that way for a long time. I mean lets' face it, if you want to talk about reality, who in their right mind could a guy thats dressed up as Ezio and sticks out from all the other clowns. So one way the devs could fix this is by creating different outfits you could get access to by playing the game - and I'm not talking about just changing the freaking colors. I mean like totally unique outfits that each carry with it a notoriety in each city. This would make sense because once you commit a crime in a certain outfit you are branded in that outfit - change the outfit and your notoriety goes away. If the devs did it right they would force you to play a certain amount of the game with limited outfits and pace them until the end.
Overall this a an area that they could improve to make the game much more challenging - much like the DLCs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I personally would not like that. It just seems like too much work.

I just say keep the current system and add negative notoriety and all that comes with it.