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View Full Version : Question - What to do around deadline time?



alanschu
05-12-2005, 12:04 AM

alanschu
05-12-2005, 01:14 AM
Ack! No responses!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ulfwulf
05-12-2005, 01:16 AM
i think the devs are trying to 'milk' ubisoft ""$$
the game was heavily delayed in the beginning by devteam
and they are releasing silly patches on purpose
either they are stupid or incompetent

they should get fired anyway

alanschu
05-12-2005, 01:22 AM
Not too surprising...but When It's Done is winning! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

HW3
05-12-2005, 01:32 AM
The game was delayed because the community wanted a dynamic campaign generator included so, the developers listened and delayed the release till it was done.

Wizage
05-12-2005, 01:38 AM
alanschu - are you a business-major?? :-)
you are probably taking your survey with the wrong crowd. almost everybody on this forum will say when it's done. but realistically, a piece of software is NEVER DONE. That's the interesting lesson in software development. You can ALWAYS find more bugs, have new ideas for improvement, enhancements etc. At some point, you've GOTTA say that "this is good enough!" and let the baby go http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

alanschu
05-12-2005, 01:48 AM
No, I'm not a business major, but I do feel it's important to understand business.


I'm actually a CompSci major. But I did take some economics courses since I felt they'd be useful (if for no other reason than understanding how the world works).

I suspected that "When It's Done" would be the most popular answer. I actually considered not putting it on the list. I wonder if people are considering the negative aspects of when it's done (aside from cost) when they pick it.

Is anyone here playing Duke Nukem Forever?

How long would someone be willing to wait to play a game. If I told you now that Halo 3 or SH4 or whatever was coming in 8 years....would that make you happy? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Wizage
05-12-2005, 01:50 AM
dude, we aren't even willing to wait for a halfway decent PATCH for an existing game http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

alanschu
05-12-2005, 01:58 AM
Hehehe.

Half-Life 2 is a good case and point. Someone was so pissed that the game wasn't coming out he hacked Valve and leaked source "to prove a point." :P



Ooooo, someone said Cancel!

Kpt_Zig
05-12-2005, 04:12 AM
Get it up on it's feet, even if it's staggering, get it out the door and then SUPPORT IT FULLY. That means patch it until it's able to run at full speed, then finish dressing it.

PC games have come to a point where the relationship needs to be fully three-way: Devs, publisher, customers. We, the customer, need to recognize the cost of developing a great game and behave accordingly...take the diamond in the rough state. The publishers need to recognize the need for polishing and fund the devs accordingly. The devs...they just need to do their job and do it well.

Bob_Gilroy
05-12-2005, 10:41 AM
PC games have come to a point where the relationship needs to be fully three-way: Devs, publisher, customers. We, the customer, need to recognize the cost of developing a great game and behave accordingly...take the diamond in the rough state.

No I don't, if the devs are unable to develop a reasonably playable, bug free game in the time alotted they shouldn't be in business. I don't give charitable contributions to game developers, if you are willing to accept lower quality, you are a fool. Your attitude is the primary reason that software companies feel they can get away with releasing unfinished products.

DokterBeefcake
05-12-2005, 10:51 AM
Find me a ship/flight sim that worked flawlessly on release that wasn't simply an engine upgrade (re)release.

FPS (D3, HL2) can work fine out of the door because they only need two elements: the ability to tie the mouse to the crosshair, and the ability to unleash gore when the LMB is clicked. Sims have a lot of complex things going on. It's not an excuse for exceptionally buggy releases, but an explaination of why sims tend to be more bug ridden on release.

Mylo42
05-12-2005, 11:11 AM
alanchu,

I voted "cancel". Here's why:

I agree with Bob completely on this one. If I'm going into business to produce a product for the consumer, be **** well assured I am going to research it and know what I am going to be committed to, what it will cost, if I can afford it. If at the conclusion of my research, the answer is "it will cost me too much, too much risk for return.", I will not choose that as a business venture. I'm not sure why game companies don't have to play by this most basic marketplace rule ? Actually, I do know the answer, that being, their flawed product still sells.

Why tell me, as a game consumer, of the release of a game, months in advance ? Is this some sort of carrot dangling before my nose ? Why build on this hype when they are not absolutely positive that they can deliver ? What's wrong with allerting the gaming community of an upcoming release maybe a month before it hits the shelves, when the thing is pretty much finished (including play testing it for OBVIOUS flaws) ?, when they KNOW what they will be able to deliver ? I really don't quite understand this. When I hear of a "new release", I always have the same mind set, "I'll believe it when I have it installed on my HD." I usually expect months for that to happen. In the meantime, I play my other stuff that I've had for years.

To explain my reasoning for voting "cancel." It is simply from my point of view, not a game producer, or what would be the best option for them. I would prefer that a title, that I have been anxiously awaiting (say SHIII for example) be cancelled with an explanation, "We could not provide a quality product due to fiscal limitations and so therefore, will not be releasing SHIII." ....or something like that. I find that easier to take then finally getting a game and being dissapointed (which, is actually NOT the case with SHIII. I've logged quite a few hours and enjoy the game). Whether I'm dissapointed or the game is cancelled, either way, I don't play it. With the latter, at least I didn't waste my money.

ulfwulf
05-12-2005, 11:23 AM
the devteam
http://www.silenthunteriii.com/uk/dev_team.php

Bralth
05-12-2005, 11:37 AM
After reading high reviews for this game I had high hopes.

Normally I wait and check out forums and the like before buying but once in a while I REALLY want a game to be good and I buy a game without looking into it.

Moo III was one of those games, and it was a horrible piece of trash. I vowed I'd never make that mistake again, but I read somewhere that Slient hunter III was finished.

I do some quick searching and see it had high reviews.

I buy it. I am impressed with the graphics. Thats about it. Game play wise its no better than any of the sub sim games I played back in the early 90's late 80's. Amazingly also those early games had far less game play bugs. The internet has made devs/publishers lazy. Back then patching was almost impossible, it was rare a game didn't play right out of the box. Now some games are shipped that don't even run without a patch (fallout 2 for starters).

The problem with the patch cycle is that once you are patching you are losing money. We all bought the game, and they won't see any more money by making the game better. So they get it to a minimal playing level and thats it.

The only time this isn't the case is when you have some of the smaller independent publishers like Shrappnel games. There you can see continued support and know the game will be better over time. From the larger publishing houses, forget it.

I am going to guess we will see 2 more patches for silent hunter iii. After that it will be 'in the expansion' or never heard from again.

HeibgesU999
05-12-2005, 04:45 PM
The problem with the video game industry is they use the same production model as the former Soviet Union: namely, storming.

Instead of killing themselves to get the product out the door at the end of a project, they need to kill themselves in the beginning to get the thing properly prototyped.

From a military standpoint, they need to use the Backwards Planning Process, the 1/3 2/3 Time Rule, and use the Crawl Walk Run methodology.

Wizage
05-12-2005, 05:33 PM
"bug-free" software?
That's the same as the "perfect" government.
Give me an example of a bug free software and I'll find a bug in it. That's the nature of the beast.

alanschu
05-12-2005, 06:50 PM
That is true Wizage. It's even possible for bugs to get into the game that aren't even the developer's fault. Sometimes compilers have bugs in them too.



As for releasing the game right away and then patching it ('fully' supporting it as some have mentioned), I was thinking about it. I think this is a poor decision because so much rides on the initial release of a product. Ultima IX ended up being patched to the point where the game was stable and performance good, and it was actually not too bad to play. However, all anyone remembers is the crappy release.


Furthermore, it neglects the mainstream market. When working with my Dad (own's his own computer shop), I was a little surprised at how few people actually understood how to patch software (or even knew that patches existed whatsoever). As a result, buggy games turn these people off of computer games. If an initial release is buggy, negative press and poor public perception may mean that the game may never see the light of day. I don't think it's fair to the consumer to expect them to buy a game, only to have to wait to enjoy it.

Mylo42
05-12-2005, 08:26 PM
alanchu,

Good point on the "patch" issue, I'm sure it never crossed the minds of most of the players on this forum. I can see somebody new to the scene, without any experience or guidance, be very turned off and intimidated by having to "access the internet to download software (patch) that will rectify some problems within the game". I can see lots of people saying, "the hell with it", and turfing it in the garbage.

alanschu
05-12-2005, 11:02 PM
I think there's a lot of things that we as "hardcore" users take for granted.


Copy protection is a big one, and of course is a touchy subject. You and I both know that it doesn't take long to easily circumvent it, but I think it's more effective against casual piracy than we may think.


I base this on my completely unrandom sample of people that know how to use simple products like EZ CD Creator to burn CDs. These same people though, often don't know how to download patches or drivers or anything like that. Speaking from experience, I have had instances where I'll bump into someone that I know (usually in a group), and they'll remember that I am basically a computer geek. Many of them ask me if I know of a way to allow them to make copies of their games for each other. (Fortunately my friends all realize that I decided to stop pirating games in the late 90s, so they've stopped asking me a long time ago).


Understandably though, my findings are not empirical and could very well not be typical. They just strike me as the average joe computer user, based on personal interaction and stuff I learned while working with my Dad.

Mylo42
05-12-2005, 11:58 PM
I forget the direction this thread was to take but basically, it's the same topic as in "Future of PC Games". Quite the discussion actually, best I've had in a long time. I do miss Zig though...

I consider myself a "hard core" gamer but certainly not a hard core user (I touched on that topic with regards to my lack of drug use... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I self taught myself a few basics simply due to the neccesity which, is pretty well a must these days.

In any event, I think that SIMS are influenced less by piracy than perhaps other types of games. Why, because I feel, in general, SIMMERS are likely of the age / maturaty level where they have the disposable income, in the first place, to spend $50 - $100 on a game and secondly, they are of the age / maturaty level not to go around "burning CD's for their buddies" who blew all their cash at the bar chasing the skirts. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif I know if someone approached me to burn a CD for them, they would be told to get a life, and a job. You discovered that alanchu, by the sounds of it, years ago. Again, it's a maturaty thing. Is piracy an issue ? Certainly. Will it make or break a publisher of a SIM, I doubt it. We want a good product and, widely speaking, SIMMERS are willing to pay the price for it.

alanschu
05-13-2005, 12:04 AM
This thread was sort of spawned off of the combination of the other threads.


I was curious to see what people felt about the situation.

I'm not surprised to see that "When it's Done" is winning, as it's the most favourable solution for the enduser....and after all, we're all selfish in some ways. I just don't see it as being a plausible one.



As for Zig...I think he lives in Europe. He's probably sleeping right now.

Mylo42
05-13-2005, 12:36 AM
Yes, I fully expected "When it's done" to win. I was going to vote for it myself but decided that "cancel it" would be more realistic from a publishing point of view. On that note, if told, today, "I can give you SHIII right now as it is or I'll give it to you in a year fully finished." I would take the year, every time. I've got lots of other things to keep myself busy with. That's not reality though, I know it.

I hope Zig comes back. I find his level of "enthusiasm" quite interesting, although I don't see where bashing, name calling, and all the "antics" lead to a very positive discussion. I would like to know what lies at the base of his animosity towards Ubi, being the "rubber necker" I am , and all.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I'm shutting it down for the night. Good discussion.

TorpedoChris
05-13-2005, 05:16 AM
I used to work for a software editor, though not in the gaming industry and had a chance to participate in the QA process of a major release of the main product. I can tell you the new functionalities were more than buggy ! The release date has been delayed by about two months in successive attempts to make a stable product.
In the end, after endless talks between the R&D and QA teams, as well as the management, it was decided to release the software. We knew there was bugs, but it was stable. It's all a question of balance.

Jex_TG
05-13-2005, 08:59 AM
Originally posted by Mylo42:
alanchu,

I voted "cancel". Here's why:

I agree with Bob completely on this one. If I'm going into business to produce a product for the consumer, be **** well assured I am going to research it and know what I am going to be committed to, what it will cost, if I can afford it. If at the conclusion of my research, the answer is "it will cost me too much, too much risk for return.", I will not choose that as a business venture. I'm not sure why game companies don't have to play by this most basic marketplace rule ? Actually, I do know the answer, that being, their flawed product still sells.

Why tell me, as a game consumer, of the release of a game, months in advance ? Is this some sort of carrot dangling before my nose ? Why build on this hype when they are not absolutely positive that they can deliver ? What's wrong with allerting the gaming community of an upcoming release maybe a month before it hits the shelves, when the thing is pretty much finished (including play testing it for OBVIOUS flaws) ?, when they KNOW what they will be able to deliver ? I really don't quite understand this. When I hear of a "new release", I always have the same mind set, "I'll believe it when I have it installed on my HD." I usually expect months for that to happen. In the meantime, I play my other stuff that I've had for years.

To explain my reasoning for voting "cancel." It is simply from my point of view, not a game producer, or what would be the best option for them. I would prefer that a title, that I have been anxiously awaiting (say SHIII for example) be cancelled with an explanation, "We could not provide a quality product due to fiscal limitations and so therefore, will not be releasing SHIII." ....or something like that. I find that easier to take then finally getting a game and being dissapointed (which, is actually NOT the case with SHIII. I've logged quite a few hours and enjoy the game). Whether I'm dissapointed or the game is cancelled, either way, I don't play it. With the latter, at least I didn't waste my money.

Good comments http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif