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View Full Version : Incredible Damage. need advice on landing :)



DAGATH1979
12-12-2010, 04:20 AM
Im new to the game and the forum but love this game its epic http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I have no mods or anything extra installed.

Anyway. the game is paused at the mo and here is my situation.

In quick mission builder I went after a ship on the Crimea map with the Beaufighter and got badly shot up. (that will teach me not to go solo but its fun so sue me) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Damage looks like this.
:Elevator control lost
:Rudder GONE
:Engine 1 Inoperable http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Right now im doing 240kph on full power with flaps set to landing just to maintain level flight at 250 meters from the deck.

I have nursed it back to the airfield but now im in a bad state. i cant make tight turns because i lose alt very quickly so im doing massive arcs to try and line up for a shot at landing. I made a few attempts but im coming in way to hot, and if i lower the power even slightly i nose in.

What can i do if anything.??? I need to keep the nose up but nothing is working.
I really wanna land this plane. it would be a sweet mini victory http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I

DAGATH1979
12-12-2010, 04:20 AM
Im new to the game and the forum but love this game its epic http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I have no mods or anything extra installed.

Anyway. the game is paused at the mo and here is my situation.

In quick mission builder I went after a ship on the Crimea map with the Beaufighter and got badly shot up. (that will teach me not to go solo but its fun so sue me) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Damage looks like this.
:Elevator control lost
:Rudder GONE
:Engine 1 Inoperable http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Right now im doing 240kph on full power with flaps set to landing just to maintain level flight at 250 meters from the deck.

I have nursed it back to the airfield but now im in a bad state. i cant make tight turns because i lose alt very quickly so im doing massive arcs to try and line up for a shot at landing. I made a few attempts but im coming in way to hot, and if i lower the power even slightly i nose in.

What can i do if anything.??? I need to keep the nose up but nothing is working.
I really wanna land this plane. it would be a sweet mini victory http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I

Xiolablu3
12-12-2010, 05:41 AM
All you can really do is use flaps and power to lose height at EXACTLY the right speed to land it. Its gonna be very difficult.

I used to make 'lost elevator' landings online about 50% of the time. But this was usually in fighters such as the Spitfire/Fw190/Bf109 or P47. And I always had a decent amount of engine power.

I would think it would be very hard in a twin engined plane with oine engine out.

In the fighter you can use flaps and full power to gain height. But as you only have one engine, I dont know if its possible for you to gain height with full flaps.

DAGATH1979
12-12-2010, 05:58 AM
Tnx for the reply Xiolablu3

Well it was fun for sure but i didnt make it. Done my level best to bring it home but i could not lower my speed below 240 without a nose dive.

So when i went in i bounced off the runway broke the nose landing gear and and on the downward part of the bounce the nose hit first and thats all she wrote.

Was a decent attempt and i got a good video of it so i will keep rocking on http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

TheGrunch
12-12-2010, 06:14 AM
Best you can hope for in the situation where you can't really maintain height at low speeds is to do a fast belly-landing. Don't bother with undercarriage. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

DAGATH1979
12-12-2010, 06:46 AM
Ye grunch but that was the easy option http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif i really wanted to bring it home on the wheels. Alas not possible

b34856
12-12-2010, 07:24 AM
If I was in that bad of a situation I think I might have just bailed-out. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Well, at least your pilot lived, that's all that counts! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

danjama
12-12-2010, 07:53 AM
It's funny, about a week ago, there was a thread announcing that these forums may be dead, and within it, someone, i can't recall who, said that il2 1946, and these forums, were no longer getting any new blood.

Welcome to the madness http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

M_Gunz
12-12-2010, 08:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by b34856:
If I was in that bad of a situation I think I might have just bailed-out. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Well, at least your pilot lived, that's all that counts! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's the most realistic answer, but bailing at 250m is also taking a big chance.

DAGATH1979
12-12-2010, 08:37 AM
Im happy to be a noob. this game/sim is really very very good indeed. Years ago i used to play warbirds but man that pales desperately in comparison to IL. Very impressive indeed.

I know some of you think i should have bailed or belly landed but where is the challenge in that. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I really wanted to land the beast in one piece. I just saw in the controls layout thee is a Prop Pitch setting. would that have helped? anyone think?

danjama thanks mate. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

TheGrunch
12-12-2010, 08:47 AM
There's a thing...did you make sure you feathered the prop on the dead engine?

DAGATH1979
12-12-2010, 08:58 AM
I tried, but it did nothing i just assumed it was not a feature of that plane http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

robtek1957
12-12-2010, 09:42 AM
In this case you have to fly by the variometer and not the speedometer.
1. Line up and adjust the throttle to 3-5m/s sinking (500 - 1000 ft/min).
2. Aim for the threshhold and control your descend with minimal input on the throttle.
3. The instant before before touching down retract the flaps full and chop the throttle.
4. Pray! and hold the heading.

M_Gunz
12-12-2010, 10:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DAGATH1979:
Im happy to be a noob. this game/sim is really very very good indeed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There have been IRL competition aerobatics pilots as members here telling what-more IL2 had in effects that others didn't, and some about more vague things still missing. According to them "the 1st and 2nd order effects" are right.

It's the first combat flight sim I've played where rudder control is necessary to play well, and -that- only became so critical -after- Pacific Fighers, IL2 v3.xx with the v4.xx series. That was years into the IL2 series. I'd be scared to try running 1946 on my 1G Athlon with Voodoo5500 that I ran the original IL2 on!

Consider you caught the wave practically full-formed. There is still 4.10 and maybe further to go.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Years ago i used to play warbirds but man that pales desperately in comparison to IL. Very impressive indeed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did you ever get into Red Baron, original or RB2/RB3D?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I know some of you think i should have bailed or belly landed but where is the challenge in that. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I really wanted to land the beast in one piece. I just saw in the controls layout thee is a Prop Pitch setting. would that have helped? anyone think? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe, what plane? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If it's a constant-speed-prop and you have prop pitch on manual control then running the prop at 100% rpms and lowering power will slow you down from high speed pretty well. Take a P-47 and get it moving at 100-100 throttle-prop. Lower power to 90% and see what speed you get and how fast you get there. Then 70%, then 50%. About 45-100 I get to approach speed running level, radiators full open but otherwise clean. 35-100 and I'm descending, half that crossing the line. The prop feathers itself to maintain rpms, if you aren't slow at low power it will slow you down while it keeps constant revs.. that cuts down on gyro effect changes. If you get the power just right, you can buzz along at controlled speed even while losing alt slowly.

OTOH you can go faster at less than 100% power by using less than 100% prop rpms as IRL, econo-cruise at 70-70 not 70-100.

Note that engine speed affects heat and prop rpm is directly tied, prop pitch lets you do a lot of tricks.

What you want to mess with sometime though is prop pitch on a 109! Because 109s on manual, you control the prop pitch and not a constant speed mechanism. 100% is blades fine-pitch, opposite of feathered. 0% is as coarse as they get. The faster you go, the more you have to lower pitch. Get used to how the engine sounds at 2500rpm and listen during takeoff as the engine sound rises until you coarsen the blades. You can blow the engine of a 109E at 100% power just taking off and not pulling the pitch back before getting flaps and wheels up while staying level... maybe 240 kph if that. Either assign easy buttons or keys to prop pitch +/- 5% or put it on a slider, 109 on manual prop is more demanding but satisfying.

Romanator21
12-13-2010, 02:53 AM
You mention a Beaufighter, and then nose-gear, so I'm a little confused http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

It's amazing that you made it as far as the runway in an aircraft with no elevator or rudder, and only one engine.

Advice for next time is to use power (if available) to set a nice shallow glide path. At the last moment drop a notch of flaps to raise the nose, and then cut power.

If you're on one engine, feather the other. You have to set controls for "feather prop" and "select engine #". This turns the blades parallel to the airflow and minimizes drag and also the strong yaw tendency of asymmetric thrust. If you still have rudder, trim to counter-act the yaw tendency further.

Don't be worried about making belly landings either. If the situation was hairy, pilots would not bother with the gear. Fouling up the landing could cause the plane to flip and then crush, or at least trap, the pilot. Planes are expensive, but the hardest part to replace is the guy at the controls.

If you do decide on a belly landing, it would also have been advisable to turn off the engine if a prop-strike was imminent. Otherwise the engine could be totaled.

As a side-note, the landing gear of the IL-2 was designed in such a way that it could make belly landings with minimal damage to the under-sides and radiator.

DAGATH1979
12-13-2010, 04:34 AM
Well Romanator I had no power control, or flaps really as just to maintain level flight i had the flaps fully extended to landing and with full power, that gave me level flight only http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Any significant turn resulted in loss of altitude so i had to make massive arcs to try ans line up with the runway.

On my first landing attempt i was silly enough to drop the gear early and that very nearly ended badly. i lost half my altitude due to that.

I did try to feather the prop but it did not work i just assumed that it was not a feature of that plane but maybe i did not select the correct engine. There was not much YAW effect anyway so that didnt make much difference also as the rudder was shot off so any significant yaw effect would have killed me much sooner http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Ur spot on about the gear. no nose gear in the Beaufighter i dont know why i thought that but the result was the same... a fiery end to the plane.

To make it a success i think it was only possible to make a belly landing but as i said before i was enjoying the challenge of trying to land it correctly.

In order to keep the nose up actually i mean level i could not drop the speed below 240 +or- 10 so in my final attempt i just went for it. i got lined up and went in at that speed. but it was to fast and as mentioned above i could not drop the gear with out a serious loss in speed resulting in a nose dive. Which is what happed.
I bounced off the runway which for a split second gave me hope but the gear broke and i immediately nosed in and thats all she wrote.

Still i have to recommend it is a challenge to you experts. I have not had the game very long so just messing around with the quick mission builder. i flew that mission solo and went after the enemy ships in the Crimea map. those 4 ships firing all at once do some serious damage so the challenge is to make it back to your home base and land on your gear if you still have gear of course. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

M_Gunz
12-13-2010, 09:02 AM
AI gunners, LOL, due to lack of AI AA units, each stands for many. You may find yourself in a fighter, tracked and whacked by a T-34 main gun.

binky9
12-13-2010, 09:05 AM
Another scenario would have been if you had put the good engine at full power to control the rate of descent and gone below the single engine minimum controllable airspeed (Vmc) on approach. In that case, you would have rolled over on your back and been dead.

Even with a rudder, which you didn't have, going below the Vmc means you will roll over.

You probably did well just to get the plane on the ground upright.

binky9

Erkki_M
12-13-2010, 09:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
AI gunners, LOL, due to lack of AI AA units, each stands for many. You may find yourself in a fighter, tracked and whacked by a T-34 main gun. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Put a single ZSU37 somewhere with the FMB. Then, try to skip/dive bomb or strafe it. Try again. That thing makes Fw 190s explode out to 7-8km, a plane that you rarely see even lose a wing to other than very heavy fire. Thats the most lethal flak unit I know in the game, Whirlbewind and Coelian(twin 37mm cannons in armoured tower, on Panther chassis...) sharing the 2nd pole.

merlin11938
12-13-2010, 10:43 AM
When I read that you experienced that horrific damage flying a Beaufighter,it reminded me of my similar experience.Like you,I dropped the flaps and added power to stay airborne.I was luckier than you.I made a fast belly landing,and left the wreck on the airfield(I nearly lost it on final approach!)I doubt if any other aircraft in the game has this survivability modelled into it,

DAGATH1979
12-13-2010, 01:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">binky9 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ye it was pretty un-flyable. Alway on the edge of stall or on the verge of nose dive. but there in lies the challenge

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Erkki_M </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sounds like a great idea http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif but i have no idea how to work the FMB http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">merlin11938 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Believe it or not i had a similar experience in a P38 L . No rudder, no elevator and 1 engine out but it was much more responsive to the flaps. I was able to gain hight and descend using the flaps. I still ended in a fireball on the runway tho. But realistically I should have survived that one. I felt abit like Howard Huges but alteast he survived http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

mortoma
12-13-2010, 04:41 PM
Even for an expert it's hard to successfully land ( without inflicting more damage to the plane ) more than about 50% of the time with no elevator. In some particular aircraft it's hard to land at all with no elevator. Some planes make it easier.

I make no elevator landings with no further damage ( land on wheels, remain on wheels ) about half the time.

And adding minor damage ( such as damage to prop from a nose over ) about 25% of the time.

I'll add catastrophic damage ( like plane ends up upside down but I survive ) about 10% of the time.

I'll destroy plane and die about 15% of the time.

But one of the smoothest landing I ever made period was in a Me-110G2 with no elevator!! It was what us pilots in real life call a "greaser" landing. Or a landing so smooth it's hard to tell by feel you've landed.

M_Gunz
12-13-2010, 05:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erkki_M:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
AI gunners, LOL, due to lack of AI AA units, each stands for many. You may find yourself in a fighter, tracked and whacked by a T-34 main gun. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Put a single ZSU37 somewhere with the FMB. Then, try to skip/dive bomb or strafe it. Try again. That thing makes Fw 190s explode out to 7-8km, a plane that you rarely see even lose a wing to other than very heavy fire. Thats the most lethal flak unit I know in the game, Whirlbewind and Coelian(twin 37mm cannons in armoured tower, on Panther chassis...) sharing the 2nd pole. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What, no Ostwind?? PzIII chassis, armored 37mm, open top.

Each AA in IL2 is supposed to stand for something like 16 guns that should be there but that would be slide-show time.
Reduce the crew levels help any?
Best thing to do in IL2 is be online with friends when you attack fierce AA. Look through all your loading options, if you can drop time-delay sub-munitions then you can lay a fan shape where bomblets will stop when they hit ground objects. It's like a bomb-shotgun. I've gotten over 15 kills on vehicle convoys in one swoop using IL2 with cassette. You don't so much aim as point roughly towards, it's suited to being used while weaving down NOE to get low angle impact for the bomblets and then weave off before the delays run out.
But odd, I don't remember ever trying AA tanks or AA positions or bases with them. I must have... parked planes flambe.

Remember the guy who set up the mission where an IL2 dropped cassettes down on a flight of bombers? He had to air start the IL2 way up to get it to work but the effect was gold.

M_Gunz
12-13-2010, 06:56 PM
Okay but what if you had something riding on your success? If you're online, every plane you down gets you a life and every time you die it takes one away. If you live is what matters. If you run out of lives, you get a 24 hr server death-ban.

Offline: You die, you have to go out for one, maybe two beers with spicy food optional, have to walk there and back. Have to take 1 whole hour off IL2.
OTOH if it's too far to walk then make sure the kitchen is stocked. You still have the 1-hr IL2 timeout, better luck next time!
If you don't or can't drink beer then the spicy food is no longer an option but a requirement. Burn baby, burn!

default: You game-died, are in timeout, time for that dead pilot to turn into a dim memory in a sea of faces.

It's all to help add a little more realism than instantly punching refly which even a 1 hr delay is more real than seconds. If you're in a squad vs squad fight, getting bumped 1 hr would be agonizing. It's usually more like 5, 10 or 15 penalty-box minutes, if anything.

WTE_Galway
12-13-2010, 08:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erkki_M:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
AI gunners, LOL, due to lack of AI AA units, each stands for many. You may find yourself in a fighter, tracked and whacked by a T-34 main gun. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Put a single ZSU37 somewhere with the FMB. Then, try to skip/dive bomb or strafe it. Try again. That thing makes Fw 190s explode out to 7-8km, a plane that you rarely see even lose a wing to other than very heavy fire. Thats the most lethal flak unit I know in the game, Whirlbewind and Coelian(twin 37mm cannons in armoured tower, on Panther chassis...) sharing the 2nd pole. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The ZSU37 never saw operational service before the end of WWII.

Historically it was not that successful.

Maybe Il2 mistakenly outfitted it with ammunition with proximity fuses instead of the correct frag/incendiary http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

M_Gunz
12-13-2010, 08:44 PM
I've seen wargame soviet SPAA that were supposed to be halftracks with AA. One with a quad-50, the other with one 37mm.

The side that is losing the air war is the one that needs the armored AAA. Who had the most armored AAA in WWII?

Romanator21
12-13-2010, 10:35 PM
While the AI is accurate, I doubt the 1:16 effectiveness you cite, Gunz. Maybe 1:4 at the most. I don't know a thing about guns, but it would seem to me that they would be pretty useless if it really is 1:16.

Anyway, it's interesting to note that AI gunnery worsens considerably at night, both in airplanes, and on the ground.

DAGATH1979
12-14-2010, 06:05 AM
So folks i repeated this process and sustained almost exactly the same damage as first reported.

Rudder gone.
Elevator control lost
engine 1 damaged and i was expecting it to give up but it never did so lucky for me this time i had 2 engines.

Controlling my altitude was much easier with both engines but landing speed was the problem. I was still coming in way to fast and i could not cut power to the engines as it resulted in a nose dive.

So i did get it down this time but with serious damage. the landing gear broke on impact and the left wing was broken of but land i did and with crew surviving its a mini victory i think.

Having experienced pretty much the same damage as last time i have come to the conclusion that there was no way to save the other plane or the crew as i was to low to bail out.

The only way i can think of to have saved the first crew would have been to ditch the plane in one of the rivers near the airfield. that i think is the only possible way to survive that amount of damage.

BTW
Im very impressed with the amount of interest in this thread. And how easily you all offer your advice and opinions to a so called "noob" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Cheers to all http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

Romanator21
12-14-2010, 06:25 AM
"Noobs" are to be despised and treated with the utmost prejudice and severity. No amount of malice is spared for "noobs" such as yourself.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

You will find that folks who play IL-2 are not your average gamers. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Welcome, and don't be shy, we're here to help (and argue about .50 cals)

Erkki_M
12-14-2010, 06:40 AM
Did someone say 50 cals?

http://filesmelt.com/dl/50cal_vs_il2.ntrk

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Romanator21
12-14-2010, 02:34 PM
Don't worry, I am decidedly in the "50 cals are good weapons in IL-2" camp. (I'm no better with cannons!) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

M_Gunz
12-14-2010, 05:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Romanator21:
While the AI is accurate, I doubt the 1:16 effectiveness you cite, Gunz. Maybe 1:4 at the most. I don't know a thing about guns, but it would seem to me that they would be pretty useless if it really is 1:16.

Anyway, it's interesting to note that AI gunnery worsens considerably at night, both in airplanes, and on the ground. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm just going off what Oleg posted back in ancient IL2 times.

They boosted the AA since in the real war there was about 16x as many firing. That was during discussion about tanks using main guns to make ridiculous long range shots. 16x as many guns includes AAMG's on vehicles, everything that fired AA. IL2 can't cover the AI and graphics without a major framerate hit so fewer, some bigger, guns with more accuracy resulted.

My peeve is how hard the crew are to kill on ground, ship or plane. IL2 crew 3D models being much smaller than the graphics, it's harder than should be.

PCsarefussy
12-21-2010, 10:16 AM
I would do what real life pilots would do. Bail out over a friendly harbor or river or something. I have never ever attempted to land without elevators after trying it with a heinkel. Those twin engined aircraft just can't change their pitch fast enough to actually manuevre.