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Scen
08-25-2004, 11:44 AM
For the past couple months Iā've been working on getting some buddies together to play some IL2FB/Aces and in doing so I noticed a trend in the attitude towards sims in general.

I recently read a quick article posted over on simhq.com and it seemed that the person who wrote this article hand the same general understanding of this ā"attitudeā". Itā's a good article by the way and I agree with some of his opinions.

Article http://www.simhq.com/_air2/air_082a.html

Anyways Iā've gone as far as buying the game for 3 of my pals just to get them to play and see what I see in this sim. Now I realize that not everyone is going to be into a WWII sim as much as I am but I know that they will enjoy the level of detail that this game has to offer. Most of us are in our 30s and so the level of maturity for such a game is there.

What I quickly found out after a few weeks of prodding them to play is the biggest barrier to entry was the learning curve involved with such a game. Then I remembered we can dial back some of the options so they can learn to like the game before getting frustrated with simple tasks such as take offs and landings.

I wanted to make a post here at get some opinions from you guys as to the best approach to teaching them to fly at fight.

Iā'm a real pilot and I had worked on getting my CFI at one time so Iā'm familiar with teaching people.

Right now I feel that most of them are intimidated by the whole flying thing let a lone combat etc. So I wanted to kinda soft shoe it a little at first. All of these guys are very bright most of them are IT professionals so I know the aptitude is there. Plus these guys arenā't afraid to blast people because like most of us they play FPSs as well.

Please post your thoughts. Iā'm curious what you guys think would be the best way to ramp them and have them join the community at large.

Thougths?

Scendore

Scen
08-25-2004, 11:44 AM
For the past couple months Iā've been working on getting some buddies together to play some IL2FB/Aces and in doing so I noticed a trend in the attitude towards sims in general.

I recently read a quick article posted over on simhq.com and it seemed that the person who wrote this article hand the same general understanding of this ā"attitudeā". Itā's a good article by the way and I agree with some of his opinions.

Article http://www.simhq.com/_air2/air_082a.html

Anyways Iā've gone as far as buying the game for 3 of my pals just to get them to play and see what I see in this sim. Now I realize that not everyone is going to be into a WWII sim as much as I am but I know that they will enjoy the level of detail that this game has to offer. Most of us are in our 30s and so the level of maturity for such a game is there.

What I quickly found out after a few weeks of prodding them to play is the biggest barrier to entry was the learning curve involved with such a game. Then I remembered we can dial back some of the options so they can learn to like the game before getting frustrated with simple tasks such as take offs and landings.

I wanted to make a post here at get some opinions from you guys as to the best approach to teaching them to fly at fight.

Iā'm a real pilot and I had worked on getting my CFI at one time so Iā'm familiar with teaching people.

Right now I feel that most of them are intimidated by the whole flying thing let a lone combat etc. So I wanted to kinda soft shoe it a little at first. All of these guys are very bright most of them are IT professionals so I know the aptitude is there. Plus these guys arenā't afraid to blast people because like most of us they play FPSs as well.

Please post your thoughts. Iā'm curious what you guys think would be the best way to ramp them and have them join the community at large.

Thougths?

Scendore

taiterbud
08-25-2004, 12:12 PM
In my experience you can't instill the love of WWII aviation, or aviaion in general, in anyone. Its strange, its almost like its born inside of us. Even among pilots, a love for warbirds and the history behind them is not a given. The online community is only place where I find people who relate to the level of passion I share for these planes and the history with them. Hey good luck on your CFI, I'm also working on mine I'd like to have it done this fall. If your looking for someone to fly with let me know I'm looking for a group as well. I mostly enjoy coop missions because its usually as close to real-life as you can get with a sim.

Scen
08-25-2004, 12:22 PM
Yeah I agree with the passion part of what you're saying. You're right I think you're born with it.

I do believe I can get these guys to play and actually enjoy the game. How could you not? It's amazing looking and very satisfying.

Scendore

carguy_
08-25-2004, 12:23 PM
Well,they must love it,that`s for sure.If you want to teach I recommend starting from "full switch"+speedbar that is if you`re aiming for coops and online wars.
IMO if one starts at easy settings and aims for full switch then it will take long before he makes it.Better start off at the deep water,there is no danger.

Just like my driving license instructor did.He ordered me to go to town center in the 3rd hour of my course.

Nothing to it,really.

http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

TgD Thunderbolt56
08-25-2004, 12:24 PM
Get them in an isolated room or server where they can shred each other a few times. Oh, and make sure you get them on coms ASAP too. It's much easier for the training sorties.

After all that, if one of them stays you've succeeded.

TB



p.s. make sure you give them all the pertinent websites for all the cr@p they're gonna want to get (even if they don't need it) i.e. CH Products, TrackIR, magnum-pc, etc,...


Our FB server info: http://www.greatergreen.com/il2

Scen
08-25-2004, 12:47 PM
Thanks for the post guys... Keep em coming but I think you're on to something Thunderbolt... If I can get one of them to stay then I've done a good job.

I do have a dedicated server running with comms so I hope that eases them into it. Also my goal is to go for coops first before they enter into the frey of on-line DF stuff.

I don't think the air quake stuff will appeal in the beginning.

Scendore

FI WILLIE
08-25-2004, 01:03 PM
I've gotten a couple of guys to try it myself. Slightly higher age bracket than what you mentioned. One of them is sticking with it. Both echoed same sentiments aobut the extreme learning curve associated and both were frustrated by T/O and landing and stall/spin problems. We also re-calibrated the joysticks to be less aggressive as well. ( main thing was to set MAX elavator to 93% for the time being) That helped as much as anything I did I think.

Neither wanted to drop the settings in the game so I got on the coms with them and we flew some less aggressive type planes (P-11, J-8, Stuka) until they figured out the basics. I used the external view to "ride" with 'em for a bit and coached 'em around and they said it really helped. One still dabbles at it and the other is still practicing offline and in our IP server so he won't feel so embarrased when he gets his butt handed to him online in DF server. (at least that is what he telling me) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The other guy has so much going on that he doesn't have a lot of time to play so he sticks with games he already knows for the time being.

Virtus Junxit,
Mors Non Separabit.
http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0RQAAAGcT2og50!y1f7NgYX4rH0SBKAJ0*TnOdC3*WtgnO6hGP KX5PiB5W62XzquB*!VrAP7Zdv0N0X0XoOghYlsdCNgJc9MWMJg aWb0iiKk/109g2%20small.jpg
Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati


(When all else fails, play dead.)
http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0QADWAvYSnGZaJjyZNeiWgIEGvdX5tvNMbEyaBCk7k0umnkdtM fvXk7UORkarzGe3nPMS77RyIzTPhfsJQW!gr!MM82pBzaYVzoz WAgBwaSg/******ss.gif

Owlsphone
08-25-2004, 01:17 PM
It all depends on how much they know about the basics if avation. You say they play other games, but that doesn't mean that they will know which end is the front of a warbird. If they are total newcomers to aviation games, the wonderwoman view with relaxed settings just may be the best thing for them to start on.

Start them out in the sky and let them get a feel for flight. Some people bank their planes and wonder why they don't turn very quickly. This would be a good time to explain flight controls.

After they get comfortable with zipping around in the sky, you can mess with landings with invulnerability turned off. Let them try to get their planes to hit the runway itself in a controlled fashion. Before you know it, they'll be touching down on the first third of the runway and you can turn invulnerability on.

Gunnery is by far the hardest part of this sim. Set them up against friendly bombers amd let them have at it. Hopefully at this point they are able to fly the plane pretty well.

Of course, if they already know all this, then just ignore what I said. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I agree that full switch may be beneficial to someone who already loves WWII aviation, but I also think that if you start someone off easier, they will be less prone to give up on this game. Who knows, they might discover that the game sparked their interest in WWII aviation. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v251/Owlsphone/Sig.jpg
Vertically challenged since 1984.

F19_Ob
08-25-2004, 01:35 PM
If your buddies are unfamiliar with sims U might want to begin with the easiest settings , No spins and unlimited ammo and such, so they get a feeling on the fun parts, instead of feeling stupid.
They could get intimidated with multitude of knowhow required and if the havent a general understanding of how an aeroplane works then it will be much to take in.

Tactics and such calls for some understanding of the different planetypes and ww2-newbies will have quite enough to do even with limited planesetfamiliarisation.
Just learning new things can be frustrating so a small plan on the best things to start with might be good.
To make tracks of the sessions makes it more fun to review and discuss what went wrong (or right) and why, tips and so on. and To see the damage inflicted.


I also have some friends that I have tried to get interested, but people with no relation to flying and/or aircombat or even history, have no clue what I'm talking about.
On this topic I normally have more elevated conversations with trees and walls.
Hmmmm....this sounds a little pessimistic, but I think its realistic, and U also should have an open attitude towards that it might not work out as u hope.
However an interest have to start somewhere and it could begin here.

Try to have fun during the jurney http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Scen
08-25-2004, 02:54 PM
Great posts!!!


I appreciate the input greatly. I think most of you guys are right in terms of the approach.

I think I will employ the simple mode for now and get them interested first then as they get better they can deal with the diffcult stuff.

Great tip on the outside view stuff... I never thought of it because I usually play without it. Im sure I could sit there and walk them through it. I know that it's going to be needed at first.

2 guys are kinda familiar with Flight sims from just playing games over the years but one is clueless so i will have to hand hold him more.

Again thanks for the input and I will put it to use.

Scendore

Ak9779
08-25-2004, 03:57 PM
It's a nice thing you're doing for your friends, there. I wish I knew more people who're interested in simming *sniff*

A lot of good advice thrown out so far, so let me just add a thign or two:

For more "advanced" gunnery. (i.e when they can cut up bombers pretty reliably) consider flying a "target dummy" aircraft. Basically just find a nice, sturdy A/C (IL2 should work well in this respect) and let them pick away at you with their guns while you pull some gentle turns and climbs. It should be a nice intermediary between motionless bombers and G-crazy fighters, and a good intro into deflection shooting. (Plus you can see where their rounds are going and help them correct)

Unlimited ammo has it's ups and downs, however. You can get a lot more training time without having to land and reload, but it does tend to foster spray-n-pray tendencies. Once they have landing down fairly well, I'd suggest you just go with limited ammo loads, and have them practice their landings and takeoffs whenever they need more ammo.

Later,
Ak

----------------
MACHINE GUN : JAMMED
FUEL TANK: LEAK
ENGINE: ON FIRE
PILOT: WOUNDED
...Yeah, it's gonna be one of those days...

Lt.Davis
08-25-2004, 08:54 PM
I'm agree with ob_swe. I started early IL-2 with no stall, no cockpit, unlimited ammo even no cloud. And i'm enjoying it. Then later i join this forum and start to involve into the discussion, and than i upgrade my difficulty of my game and slowly get use to it.

So i would prefer set to arcade mode for new player in order to let them love this game.

Just my 2 cents of comment.

Regards.

"Biar berputih tulang, jangan berputih mata"
Translated:
"Let the whites of your bones, but do not show the whites of your eyes"

Lt.Davis
08-25-2004, 09:03 PM
ADD:

if someone willing to dedicate public tranning server for new player, i think it'll help to increase numbers of ppl playing this sim. No a big amount imo but it help.

"Biar berputih tulang, jangan berputih mata"
Translated:
"Let the whites of your bones, but do not show the whites of your eyes"

BullShark 71
08-25-2004, 09:34 PM
Yep I just went thru the same thing with some friends.Two of them are local friends and I got 3 from my Battlefield 1942 group ,1 of my local friend loves it and I got mixed views about what everyone else thinks http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Needless to say I dont care either way its my first sim(I liked and actually played) and I love it!I dont even think about flying in other games anymore,actually this all Ive been playing http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.giffor 3 months or so.

But I am still trying to get them more active in it,but it could be to no avail.

Anyways what Ive found is like the other guys said ,lighten up on the settings ,and what I did was build a mission in the FMB(theres a step by step guide)took about an hour my first attempt.
I added 3 later model spits vs 16 ger bombers ,also make it an airstart.I even went as far as unlimited ammo and invulnerable the first couple times I launched a mission and had them direct connect.If there real new you may wanna slow the bombers down a bit or youll be the only one around,lol.

But what they really liked ,aswell as myself,was telling them to record/make a track and explaining how to,and how to watch it back.I explained this to them before we flew!

Most importantly I think I may have been a little overbearing about it.Its simply a game thats gonna take alot to master but its only as hard as you wanna make it.

Ive only been playing a few mos. and I can tell you Ill be playing it for several years.Actually there probably ready to throw me out of that 42 clan cause I got a 5 page post in the forum.The first post in it say "OMG the stalls/spins" so I didnt start of well with that one http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

Lt.Davis
08-25-2004, 09:47 PM
Bullshark,

You are lucky to have so many people/friends can play toghther. As for me, i'm looking long enought time (1 year) in local my place here but only manage find 1 person only.

So our lan-game party only 2 person. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif Just wondering how many people flying IL-2 ACE in Singapore?.....

*Ps: If you are Singaporean or PR or Work here, and you are playing FB/ACE please contact me at dave_choo@yahoo.com or PM me. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

"Biar berputih tulang, jangan berputih mata"
Translated:
"Let the whites of your bones, but do not show the whites of your eyes"

BullShark 71
08-25-2004, 10:02 PM
Lt Davis,

Actually most of the time its just me ,like I said its hard to get them as hooked as I am.Not even sure if its possible,like someone said before me I think its just in the blood?Ive always liked ww2 stuff especially dogfighting ,I just had some bad experiences with cfs series when I first started PC gaming a year ago and just recently found this amazing sim. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Can you not play online ?
I havent had a problem finding servers.Theres usually pretty good numbers and I have seen servers in your area ?If you get or dont have "The all seeing eye" you can actually search by the countries the servers are located in http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Lt.Davis
08-25-2004, 10:20 PM
Bullshark,

I understand the magic of IL-2, i have once... no it should be still addicted in this games. And i'm playing this game for damn 2 years. I scrifice sleeping time for this game. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

I'm not Singaporean, but work here. I did found 2 more guys playing FB but 1 is a family man and the other one not so active, so only left me and the other guy still playing till today. But the funniest point is all of us are not local people here. We from Indonesia, Hong Kong, Malaysia and Phillipines. We work in Singapore and link together by this game. lol

"Biar berputih tulang, jangan berputih mata"
Translated:
"Let the whites of your bones, but do not show the whites of your eyes"