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GuNzABlaZiN
05-04-2005, 04:06 PM
Since the last thread felt the funk blast, I'm starting a new one. Anything and everything P38 goes in here. Screens, photos, skins, noseart, tactics, missions/campaigns, you name it. Let the P38 nuts come out. :P

Here's a screenshot after I went all artsy-fartsy on it:
http://img45.echo.cx/img45/156/p38sweetbirdycopy7zg.jpg

Here's the noseart that I made, featuring my favorite, Adriana Lima:
http://img174.echo.cx/img174/899/sweetbirdy3uy.jpg

This isn't a worship thread, well, it is but it isn't. Show some love to the sweet bird.

GuNzABlaZiN
05-04-2005, 04:06 PM
Since the last thread felt the funk blast, I'm starting a new one. Anything and everything P38 goes in here. Screens, photos, skins, noseart, tactics, missions/campaigns, you name it. Let the P38 nuts come out. :P

Here's a screenshot after I went all artsy-fartsy on it:
http://img45.echo.cx/img45/156/p38sweetbirdycopy7zg.jpg

Here's the noseart that I made, featuring my favorite, Adriana Lima:
http://img174.echo.cx/img174/899/sweetbirdy3uy.jpg

This isn't a worship thread, well, it is but it isn't. Show some love to the sweet bird.

BSS_CUDA
05-04-2005, 04:19 PM
I Love my 38 there is not a 190 out there that can out fly it. it will turn with the later 109's with ease and will also stay with the KI-84. the 38 ROCKS, it just takes patience to learn

FoolTrottel
05-04-2005, 04:20 PM
Anything? You sure?
http://www.pacificwrecks.com/photos/current/nell/1945-p38.jpg
http://www.hlswilliwaw.com/aleutians/Attu/images/Villasenor-George/attu-p38-rear-littlebutch.jpg
http://www.pacificwrecks.com/photos/current/nell/P38side.jpg
http://www.guadalcanal.homestead.com/files/h_VILU_P38_WRECK.JPG

And, truly sorry 'bout this, but... couldn't resist....

Ignore this ...
Just havin' some fun....

Nice artwork ya did there... lookin' gooood.

What about that second pic (noseart), it's not showing!
Lost it's nose already? (Sorry, once again... can't help myself...)

**EDIT: Ok, it's showing now, and it's doing it nice!**

Have fun!

bolillo_loco
05-04-2005, 04:38 PM
just ask reddeth!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v358/bolillo_quemado/redvsbolillo3.jpg

GuNzABlaZiN
05-04-2005, 04:53 PM
That's a tripped skin, lol. Right now I'm working on my first skin and it's lookin quite terrible! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Edit: Okay, well, it's ultra terrible. Any way to extract original skins?

GuNzABlaZiN
05-05-2005, 10:23 AM
Bump bump.

PBNA-Boosher
05-05-2005, 10:46 AM
P-38 ROXORS! But it just doesn't replace my P-40 or Yak-1b.

Still, Twin booms = double the fun.

Kelly Johnson don't like it if it don't bling bling, yo!

mynameisroland
05-05-2005, 10:59 AM
Except for any Fw 190 from the A4 onwards. What can a contemporary P38 do against an A5 or A6 or against 108 armed A8 or A9? Fw is faster, more manuverable, better armed and can turn faster at high speeds. Only advantage P38 has is climb. Nothing else.

As for the Fw 190 D then its no contest beats P38 hands down from 0ft all the way up to 30000ft Its embarrassing really how easy it is to get on a P38's six http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

SlickStick
05-05-2005, 11:04 AM
Any Ki-84 pilot worth his salt would be embarassed to lose to the P-38 we have in this game. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Aside from that, I think it's one of the finer 3D models we have in the game. I've always been partial to the P-38. My dad built several models of it in his time and I used to love to fly the P-38 from Jane's WWII Fighters.

The one in this game is kind of a dog, IMO. Not good for much other than excellent ground pounding and B and Z.

I mean, sure, the model with the air brake will catch some noobish to medium pilots by surprise, but on the whole, I don't think we have the P-38 that we should have.

Udidtoo
05-05-2005, 11:35 AM
Very cool Screenie editing work.Reminds me of the comics I read in the dark ages 30+ years ago. Check your PT.

BSS_CUDA
05-05-2005, 11:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:
Except for any Fw 190 from the A4 onwards. What can a contemporary P38 do against an A5 or A6 or against 108 armed A8 or A9? Fw is faster, more manuverable, better armed and can turn faster at high speeds. Only advantage P38 has is climb. Nothing else.

As for the Fw 190 D then its no contest beats P38 hands down from 0ft all the way up to 30000ft Its embarrassing really how easy it is to get on a P38's six http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL you need to stop flying against the noobies. the ONLY FW that gives me trouble in the 38 is the TA 152, granted the D is a little faster but the 38 will out turn all of them at all speeds below 380mph, where MOST fights occur. as for the famous roll rate of the FW ya its faster but it doesnt give them an advantage it can be countered

Gwalker70
05-05-2005, 12:16 PM
well since you piped that the 38 is great... tell us how you do it with the plane. you can bring it back to life in the sim...balls in your court now Cuda

BSS_CUDA
05-05-2005, 12:25 PM
http://www.stats.war-clouds.com/wf/playerdetails.php?id=462
My stats from Warclouds

http://www.stats.war-clouds.com/wf/aircraftdetails.php?id=3

Average stats on Warclouds are .8 K/D ratio with the J and .3 with the L in the 38 I fly @ 1.3
top pilots on WC are Bamboo, Workky, Motrin and Myself in K/D ratio
my ratio would probably be higher but WC was have stats page problems there for a few days

190's are not a problem as well as the 109K, the G6 you can out run but not out turn, all other 109's are a little bit of a challenge

Gwalker70
05-05-2005, 01:08 PM
no no ,, i mean, tell us how to fly the p38.. what engine managment you use... how do you fight with it..... ect what tactics ect.

SlickStick
05-05-2005, 01:09 PM
Um, .8 K/D ratio means it gets killed more than it kills. 1.3 is slightly better, but extremely mediocre. I'm not understanding your point at this time. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif I thought you'd have at least a 4 to 1 or better K/D ratio for the amount of confidence you appear to have in the P-38.

And for God's sake, fix your avatar pic size, lol.

BSS_CUDA
05-05-2005, 01:45 PM
no ya see I dont boom and zoom like most of your luft hiders, I get in there and mix it up with the opposition, I stay in the fight till everyone's 6 is clear or I'm down, not before, I could go for the 4-1 ratio but that would be boring sitting up high and waiting to jump on someone. I prefer the thrill of a mano-a-mano,while trying to watch your own 6. who knows their plane the best, I win some and I lose some, but I usually come out on top. another reason for not having a 4-1 ratio is like has been posted in other threads, ppl usualy view the 38 as an easy 200 points "NOT" and I end up with 5-6 lufty's falling over themselves to get at me, kinda funny to watch actually.

as for how to fly. flaps deployed as low as takeoff ( below 230 ) tons of rudder and stay in the verticle if possible. the 38 has a good roll rate if you use rudder, to keep your speed up and not tuck your nose, just tap combat flaps and retract, until your ready to engage, by that time, the fight is below that magic 400 mph where the 38 has its phantom nose tuck below 20k. and you deploy your combat flaps and rudder and around she comes, get below 230 deploy take off flaps and she'll turn even faster, be carefull not to jamb them. learn to push her to the limits, you'll end up doing that nasty flat spin which has probably killed me as many times as the enemy has, but once you recognize it you can avoid it. I've seen many a 109, 190 snap roll while trying to yo-yo with me down low and go into the ground, or bail from the yo-yo and I drop in right behind them. I've been flying the J lots lately. with the L you can stand her on her nose with that airbrake and never go above 360 mph

SlickStick
05-05-2005, 01:58 PM
I understand your tactics, but still not understanding why you think that K/D ratio is good. 1.3 is only a little better than 50%.

Then again, considering the P-38 we have, I guess that would be an accomplishment if you are dogfighting with it.

BSS_CUDA
05-05-2005, 02:08 PM
well considering that the average is .38 for the L and .80 for the J thats a combined average of .5 overall http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif, I think 1.3 is pretty good http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Gwalker70
05-05-2005, 04:25 PM
what about engine managment? prop pitches radiator settings ect.

BSS_CUDA
05-05-2005, 05:05 PM
haven't gotten into engine management "FULLY" yet since I dont have the new CH quadrant, but as for PP I usually stay at 90%, she'll fly all day at 110% throttle, and if she starts to heat back it off to 100% and she'll cool right off, also leave the radiator on auto. when you go into a dive pull the throttle and PP down to 0 and she'll slow down fairly quick. not like the lufty airbrake quick tho. no need to change your PP much in a DF, just play with the throttle.

GuNzABlaZiN
05-05-2005, 05:07 PM
90% Prop pitch? Dang, I've been flying at 75-85%! Does that mean that I'm not getting all of the power out of it?

BSS_CUDA
05-05-2005, 05:12 PM
use 75-80 to conserve fuel if you see your getting low, but 90% to get top speed

HellToupee
05-05-2005, 05:28 PM
wasnt the p38s kd ratio 1:1 in real life, thats what i gather from some table chimp posted a while back.

BSS_CUDA
05-05-2005, 05:37 PM
2500 A2A kills
1900 operational losses, this includes all types from A2A, ground targets, and crashes

VW-IceFire
05-05-2005, 08:32 PM
Have you guys flown my new P-38 campaign yet? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.flying-legends.net/php/downloads/listings.php?cat_id=28

(couldn't resist)

I should toss some phots of Glacier Girl I have up here sometime soon. She's a fantastically restored P-38...it was like looking at a plane fresh out of the factory. Thats how well maintained it is...and of course it flies...amongst a very small number.

BSS_CUDA
05-05-2005, 08:55 PM
if I'm not mistaken out of the 9 flyable p-38's in the world Glacier Girl is the only F model

BSS_CUDA
05-05-2005, 10:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_CUDA:
2500 A2A kills
1900 operational losses, this includes all types from A2A, ground targets, and crashes </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

When you consider that during the first part of the war the 38 was essentially the main front line fighter and the ONLY long range fighter, and unlike the P-51's and P-47's the 38's were going against the Luftwaffe's front line pilots, its a very remarkable stat, by the time the 51's and 47's showed up in mass Germany was on the defensive and was vastly out numbered, where the Mustang had a range of 1300 miles with drop tanks, the 38's range was 3000 miles with drop tanks. the 51B was first introduced in December of 43 and the 51D in May 44, the 38 was flying for 2 years before the Mustang even entered service and was credited with the first kill of the war a FW 200 also the 38 was the ONLY fighter to be produced from start to finish of the war. it was quite a capable fighter, unfortunatelly most Generals felt that a fighter had to be single engine and didnt utilize it to it potential. also the fact that it was expensive, $54,000 US for a 51 and $113,000 US for a 38. it was not cost effective to build. it did have teething pains mostly due to training, few pilots had twin engine training, and the turbo supercharger intercooler systems causing engine failure. but when you consider all its problems and the quailty of pilots and aircraft it faced compared to the late war pilots and planes. i'd say there was a reason the Germans called it "The Forked Tailed Devil"
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v129/CUDA97045/4406-028.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v129/CUDA97045/evergreen/DSCN3904.jpg

Hristos
05-05-2005, 11:27 PM
I notice a pattern here:

Spit types: "By the time P-38 got there, Spitfire already did the job"

P-38 types: "By the time P-47 got there, P-38 already did the job"

P-47 types: "By the time P-51 got there, P-47 already did the job"

P-51 types: "P-51 won the war"

HayateAce
05-05-2005, 11:45 PM
We notice a pattern too Hiristoe,

FancieWolf Run-Ninety was def by all the above.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

P80 was patiently waiting her turn to put down teh 262, but the german give up.

http://www.edwards.af.mil/gallery/images/yeager-planes/p80-1_072.jpg

Hristos
05-06-2005, 12:03 AM
Fw 190A-9 with MK108s won the war ! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

lbhskier37
05-06-2005, 12:37 AM
P-38 was always my favorite plane when I was growing up. On another note, can't HayateAce just get banned already? He makes Copperhead look like a "luftwhiner"

NorrisMcWhirter
05-06-2005, 01:26 AM
IIRC, only German infantry referred to P38 as the 'Fork tailed devil'

The Stuka used to conjour up ominous feelings in ground troops, also, so how ground forces perceive an aircraft isn't a good measure of aerial performance overall http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The P38 in the game (and, let's face it, we are talking about a game) is a relatively easy target and the only reason to worry about it s if it's above you; something that applies to nearly every other aircraft. Just looking at my recent eventlog.lst stats since Jan, I've shot down 23 P38s (J & L) with only one loss to them...and that was when I was vulched. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I don't fly the P38 on the East/West front often because I make it back home more often in the 190 but, in the Pacific, it's a useful performer as not much can catch you, the armament is very effective (esp the cannon) and it's capable of carrying a very useful ground attack load. Then again, the Beaufighter matches that description, also.

As to Hayate - just ignore him. He's upset from being bnz'd by superior aircraft; no doubt wondering why the 'run 90' was already out of range of his .50s (5 km+) by the time he worked out what hit him http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Cheers,
Norris

ploughman
05-06-2005, 01:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Fw 190A-9 with MK108s won the war ! Big Grin </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You crack me up. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

I used to think, 'Oh no! Not that spammer Hristos again.' But now I enjoy your relentlessly partisan posts, they've become part of the community 'scenery.'

No, I don't want to go out on another date.

tigertalon
05-06-2005, 03:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_CUDA:
but the 38 will out turn all of them at all speeds below 380mph, where MOST fights occur. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL, who is flying against noobs now?

JaBo_HH-BlackSheep
05-06-2005, 04:28 AM
well let me tell some impressions i have from the P38, while i am a FW jokey (i HATE these MK's!)

flying the P38, the plane handles pretty solid, has a nice acceleration and zoomclimb, it's turn is pretty decent and good enough to get on the six of almost every FW on almost every speeds (if the FW trys turing) Gunnery is pretty good will **** up a FW (aim for the wings!) pretty fast.
But the controll response feels a little sluggish at speeds below 350kph, that means once you have been cought slow you most likely won't be able to manouver fast enough (roll-over e.g) to save your butt. Dive is verry dangerous too, since elevators are getting heavy fast.

Tactic while flying P38 for me, climb to about 4-5k (Fighter vs Fighter), hope that you are higher than your enemy, do not engage at co-alt exept you are way faster.
Dive on the target, use combat-flaps to get in deflection (mostly pretty high) aim well and shoot, once your opponent rolls over [or turns tighter] to evade, break the attack (retract flaps) and go for a wide zoom (best is opposite direction as the enemy is flying)
climb, repeat.
Best way to fight is in Pairs of two.

FW siede:
i am the FW beeing attacked (like written abouve), cruising at 400kph the P38 is diving with some 500+ i roll over and bank hard, checking my 6, as soon as the P38 gets in deflection i roll over again (under his nose) and change direction quickly. using combat-flaps to turn a little tighter.
it is now possible that the P38 is on my left or right side (overshoot) if he has lost me than i'd give it a try to send some bullets after the P38 (only if he is close enough).
decides the P38 to turnfight i will use siccours to evade his fire and slow him down, it is alsow possible to mix diveing and siccours.


---
side note:
the P38 and the FW share 1 problem!
if engaging at high speeds these planes mostly require high-deflection shooting, use it against them. both planes need altitude to seperate from a purchaser, don't get cought low!

BSS_CUDA
05-06-2005, 05:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tigertalon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_CUDA:
but the 38 will out turn all of them at all speeds below 380mph, where MOST fights occur. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL, who is flying against noobs now? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

look me up sometime TT I Guarantee I will out turn your FW with my 38 at all speeds below 380mph http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

tigertalon
05-06-2005, 05:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_CUDA:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tigertalon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_CUDA:
but the 38 will out turn all of them at all speeds below 380mph, where MOST fights occur. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL, who is flying against noobs now? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

look me up sometime TT I Guarantee I will out turn your FW with my 38 at all speeds below 380mph http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I bet you would, CUDA, if only you could find me flying so slow. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

(Only noobs try to turn at slower speeds in Fw190. Hm, let me correct myself: Only noobs try to turn in Fw190 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif)

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif And, BTW, flaps increase FW's turn rate dramaticaly.

Hristos
05-06-2005, 05:51 AM
380 mph ?

Hmm, that's 612 kph.

Anyway, who needs turning ? maybe these guys ?
http://fusionanomaly.net/dervish.gif

mynameisroland
05-06-2005, 06:04 AM
Cuda I fly many planes , mainly the 190 and my KD is 8.4:1 considering the Ju 87 is one of my top 4 rides in time spent in it my KD ratio in a Fw 190 must be over 10:1

In 2 years online flying I have been shot down twice by a P38 once by a rocket as I took off and once just the other night when I was being stupid and fighting with no energy.

With regards to the WW2 scores of the P38 they were mainly against the Japanese werent they? We also know that kill claims are over inflated. So try your stats now. 1 to 1 against weaker opposition flying ac that can barely go faster than 350mph that are made from paper and piloted by pilots who wear no chute most of the time. It doesnt really look all that impressive. What would the Fw 190's KD ratio be amongst the same opposition? Lambs to the slaughter http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

OldMan____
05-06-2005, 06:05 AM
Sorry CUDA but at 610 kph (your stated speed) a Dora can reach black out in less than 2 seconds, specially when turning left... nothing can OUTTURN that... the best you can do is a tie. P38 can keep turning much longer... but hey... does anyone still makes more than 180 degree turns?

At up to 500 kph agreed P38 will turn on a FW, specially when turning right, but above this speed things start changing. And I do fly P38 quite a lot, only plane I fly more than P38J is FW190. P38 are great around 400-440 kph range.

And I would NEVER EVER while in a P38j try to fight a Dora that I know is with a good pilot unless I start in advantage. Also I find easier to aim with FW (high speed ultras light controls)


Fact is P38 are quite easy to avoid.. I am not shot down by one in long long time (at least 6 months) specially because is so easy to see it comming.

tigertalon
05-06-2005, 06:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hristos:
380 mph ?

Hmm, that's 612 kph.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL, misread it, i tought it is 380 kph. At 612 kph Dora outturns EVERYTHING in this game, followed close by P51D. There is no way P38 can turn with dora (or even with antons - but those bleed faster) at 600kph for sure.

Cajun76
05-06-2005, 06:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ploughman:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Fw 190A-9 with MK108s won the war ! Big Grin </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You crack me up. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

I used to think, 'Oh no! Not that spammer Hristos again.' But now I enjoy your relentlessly partisan posts, they've become part of the community 'scenery.'

No, I don't want to go out on another date. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What's funny is the same things that posters like Hristos and Darthbane find so detestable about HayateAce are present in their own posts.

Keep in mind, I don't find any of the above mentioned, nor those similar, "detestable". Just an observation. Carry on. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Hristos
05-06-2005, 07:13 AM
Where did I say anything about HayateAce in the first place, much less using the word "detestable" ?

Roast
05-06-2005, 08:05 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bolillo_loco:
just ask reddeth!


hehe, nice screenie, Bolillo; wot's that in the cloud over your canopy; a japanese ricebowl? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Roast

Cajun76
05-06-2005, 08:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hristos:
Where did I say anything about HayateAce in the first place, much less using the word "detestable" ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I may have confused you with another, similar poster, Hristos. I apoligize for my mistake. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I know I pegged Darthbane however. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

ImpStarDuece
05-06-2005, 08:44 AM
HayateAce is actually a new type of troll: The Reverse Luftwhiner.

Cunningly disgusied as an flag waving, all-American, .50 shooting, Pony loving, Axis-hating, 6 gun loving cowboy HayateAce secretly pursues life as a double agent for the One-oh-Whiners Anonomyous fan club.

His posts about the obvious superiority of everything to do with US planes, pilots and players actually has the developers questioning if they haven't made US and Allied planes TOO good. Since such an obviously 'superior' pilot, such as HayateAce when flying his "beloved" Allied planes, has no trouble at all with any Axis plane there must be something seriously off with them.

Ever time HayateAce posts on how good X or Y Allied airplane is 1c fly into a frenzied panic; "We have made the P-XX too good again. Ahhh, quickly, find some data to hobble it! No, no, make the 109 better, surely if HayateAce can down it something is dreadfully wrong!"

I hereby step foward and dennounce HayateACe as a Reverse LuftWhiner. Begone, foul spawn of Bill, return to the rock from whence you crawled from! No more shall you darken my path with your nefarious ways.



***** This had been an IL2+FB+AEP+PF+WHATEVER community service announcement from ImpStarDece, any resemblence to the truth is there because I am right and no amount of evidence to the contrary can sway me. And make mine another double bartender, it looks like your about to close for the night*******

ZG77_Nagual
05-06-2005, 08:55 AM
I'm with cuda on this one. One of my first online flights was against four 190a6s. Round 1 was 3 of them at once. Record was four or five kills in one flight I think - a couple of them revived and came back at me again.
I've never had a problem with Ki84s in the P38 - but I think there is a very high percentage of relatively unskilled pilots who fly the Ki84 - as a group they seem pretty sloppy with their energy - whereas the 109 probably has the highest percentage of skilled pilots.

Lts face it though - we fly the p38 because it is not easy to win in. I used to fly the 190 allmost exclusively. It is not a hard plane to win in - it's only disadvantage is the gunsight - otherwise it's a stellar performer.

I remember my first try in a p51 online - I was flying the p39 against late 190s and 109s. I kept getting tagged by a pair of late 109s with very good team tactics - I was in an early p39 and I just could not compete with them vertically. I finally got frustrated - there was a guy on the server doing real well in a mustng - I thought he must be pretty good but decided to try a mustang. RIDICULOUS! I got into it with the late 109 team and, as long as I remained even remotely conscious of my energy state, had no problems. I don't think either of them even got a shot. They were very good - much better than most of the other axis team just then - so it was quite boring after that and I switched sides - concentrated on taking out that mustang driver in my 190.

The mustang, 190, 109, corsair, p39 etc. etc. are all pretty easy planes to win in compaired to the P38 - plus, as Cuda said - everybody gets after you when you show up in a p38.

BSS_CUDA
05-06-2005, 12:09 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif

Vike
05-06-2005, 12:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_CUDA:
190's are not a problem as well as the 109K, the G6 you can out run but not out turn, all other 109's are a little bit of a challenge </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

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No other comments...

BigKahuna_GS
05-06-2005, 01:45 PM
S!

Several of the US fighters have large problems in there flight models and have become easy targets for the most part. The P47 & P38 come to mind first. Don't equate an easy kill over these planes in AEP/PF to the real life performance and attributes they held over luftwafe a/c.

When the AEP/PF P47D-27 cannot out dive the 109/190 there is a problem with the F/M. The energy retention especially in the vertical is marginal.

I have posted the Gunther Rall story several times. Rall was Commander of the Fighter Training school and flew all types of Luftwaffe A/C & captured US fighters(P51,P47,P38). Rall also flew on the Western Front against these planes in combat. Rall discovered through training & combat the "Speed Differences" of the P47.

Read the whole interview : http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/WW2History-GuntherRallEnglish.html

Q: Mr. Rall, what was the best tactic against the P-47?

A: Against the P-47? Shoot him down! &lt;Laughter from both Mr. Rall and audience, applause&gt;

P-47 was not a big problem. The problem was if you were chased by the P-47, he was fast in a dive, had a higher structural strength. You couldn't stand that you know? And they came closer in a dive, because she was faster. But P-47 was a big ship, you know? No doubt. But in a position where you chase him, there was no equivalent condition.

Keypoint--Rall--"But in a position where you chase him, there was no equivalent condition".

This applied to all models of 109. Right now in AEP/PF the 109K4/G10 basically have the same dive speed as the P47. This is not historically accurate. The greatest life saving asset of the P47 was to out dive it's enemies in order to survive which can't be done against late model 109/190s in AEP/PF.

The P38 AEP/PF problems have been talked about in detail many times.

Another thing to consider in real life kill ratios for the P38 is that it was the only plane during 1943 that had the range for deep penatrations into Germany. Once there the P38 was severly outnumbered.

Something to consider about US fighter strength early in the war stationed in England. For the years 1942-43' there was the build up of 8th AF strategic bomber forces in England. Fighter strength at this time consisted of mostly P40's and P39's. For the early part of 1943 this was also true as P40's and P39's still outnumbered P38's. The P40's and P39's certainly were not going to escort bombers at 30,000ft.

Early 1943 B-17 penetrations into Germany where flown without fighter escorts. USAAF commanders thought the defensive armament on the B-17 was strong enough to protect themselves. How wrong they were. Bomber losses were a staggering 30% of the attacking force and strategic bombing operations ceased until enough fighter escorts were available.

During 1943-44' outnumbered P38's and P47s took on the Luftwaffe at the peak of their strength on the Western front. Both fighters had positive kill ratios with the P47 kill ratios better. This may be due that the P38 was the only fighter capable of flying deep into Germany. Once there the P38s were severely out numbered during 43-44'.

Click on this link-Official USAF historical archives of aircraft strength by type in England 1941-45. It wasn't until the middle of 1944 that US fighter strength had a numerical advantage over the Luftwaffe. By that time the Luftwaffe had been already reduced down and was no longer an effective fighting force.

http://www.au.af.mil/au/afhra/wwwroot/aafsd/aafsd_list_of_tables_aircraftequipment.html

Look at tables 88 thru 94. ETO & PTO USAAF Aircraft Strength
Very Interesting

P47 Ace Robert Johnson on 1943-44':
The P-47 was faster; it just did not have the climb and range the
Mustang did. But it had speed, roll, dive and the necessary ruggedness that allowed it to do such a great job in the Ninth Air Force. As far as aerial kills go, we met and beat the best the Luftwaffe had when we first got there. It was the P-47 groups that pushed them back, as I said before.

On being outnumbered:

Some additional citations as to the ratio of Luftwaffe fighters to AAF
escorts.

Robert Johnson:
"I was on three of the early Berlin raids. I was the lead airplane on
March 6. I had only eight airplanes to protect 180 bombers."

Later he spotted fighters heading towards the heavies. At first he thought
that they were P-47's from the 56th. They turned out to be Focke Wulfs.

"We were line abreast, all eight of us and we just opened fire and went right through some 60 or so 190s and 109s. As we turned to get on their tails, we saw another 60 or so above and another 60 or so to their left. Probably 175 - 180 German aircraft. Eight of us."

After the fight erupted into a free for all, Johnson comments:

"I didn't have to think about the situation, it was there. I thought only of survival, and hitting the enemy. If there are crosses, shoot at 'em."

An additional citation about the training given pilots reporting to P-38 Groups:

Max Woolley of the 364th FG says:

"I had about four or five hours of training in England before I went 'active'. A pilot learned combat by being in combat."

On March 15th, Woolley's squadron ran into what he estimates as 120 German fighters. The rest of the Group was about 5 miles away when his squadron C.O. led them into the Germans. Only 12 P-38s taking on ten times as many of the Luftwaffe. This was Woolley's first combat mission. After surviving by out-turning several 109s who had worked onto his tail and shredding the rudder of one 109, Woolley noted that the fight had been "a great lesson."

It is a historical myth about the only reason US Fighters did well against Luftwaffe fighters (109,190) is because the USAAF had more fighters and numerical superiority. US fighter numerical superiority did not occur until mid to late 1944.
___________________

VF-2_John_Banks
05-06-2005, 01:57 PM
Some FW jocks seem to think tht later variants are more maneuverable than the P-38. That's wrong. No FW, not even the TA can outturn a P-38 with combat flaps. They only have a higher roll rate, but that doesn't really help them. They also are slightly faster but that's it. If a FW tries to dogfight with me, it's a sure kill for me, if he doesn't run away or gets some help from another Kraut.

I noticed that some 109 variants became more agile since the last patch. I think the 109G2 is the most agile 109 now and it can even turn with a P-38 now, which it couldn't before. The late war variants are easy to outturn. Don't know why the G2 is so agile now.

I love the P-38. Best plane in the game. It has some major flaws, which it didn't have to that extend in RL, due to limitations of the game engine, but it still rocks. I'd pick over the Stang anytime, as the 20mm cannon makes a real difference. The early wr Mustangs are Peashooters compared to the P-38.

I thought i'd know all tricks in the P-38 by now, but that you have to use 90% prop pitch to achive top speed is new to me. AFAIK the same "trick" went with the BF-109s several versions ago, but that was only a bug? Can anybody confirm that 90% prop pitch is the way to go?

OldMan____
05-06-2005, 02:53 PM
later variants? My A4 can make any P38 dizzy any time. Patheticaly easy... laste week I tried to put my right wing INSIDE the open space of P38 tail.. .. obviously we crashed and went ground :P

VF-2_John_Banks
05-06-2005, 04:21 PM
No ****, i never had any problems with FW's in a dogfight. If i don't make anything stupid, no FW can shoot me down in my P-38. They can run away but not more. At very low speeds and full flaps, i could even outroll'em and due to better acceleration, i could also outclimb them. But if you meet an unexperienced pilot in P-38 you may come to the conclusion, that it's easy prey but if it's a P-38 vet, you better watch out. You can join on WC or any other FR servers. That's there the better P-38 pilots hang around. What is your HL nick?

GuNzABlaZiN
05-06-2005, 04:56 PM
If an A/C isn't popular, the amount of experienced pilots will be very small.

mynameisroland
05-06-2005, 06:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GuNzABlaZiN:
If an A/C isn't popular, the amount of experienced pilots will be very small. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you are mistaken , unpopular planes are the tougher ones, how many noobs persist with the P38? how many noobs persist with the Ki 84 or La7. Big difference. These P38 guys fly their plane out of devotion and learn it inside out so I like to think there are more aces per head in more obscure planes rather than in Good planes.

Ive killed much more Mustangs than Lightings , when I see a spit or a Mustang I know that unless im unlucky this guy is flying this plane because they are a beginner and they thing that the Spitfire/Mustang won the war and were the best WW2 fighters in every category by a mile.

2 months ago a new guy labelled me a cheater because I must have been up to something if his Spit IX LF could not catch my Fw D9 at tree top height in an extended chase. He refusd to belive the fact that some planes (planes that tend to lack the glamour of the 109, spit ect ) actually were any good.

Also many 109 aces? sure there are great 109 pilots - I tend to think its the 108 in the nose and the overmodelled climbing characteristics that put them apart. Give me a Fw 190 D9 or A6 any day of the week.

Mg151 - a real mans cannon http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

OldMan____
05-06-2005, 08:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VF-2_John_Banks:
No ****, i never had any problems with FW's in a dogfight. If i don't make anything stupid, no FW can shoot me down in my P-38. They can run away but not more. At very low speeds and full flaps, i could even outroll'em and due to better acceleration, i could also outclimb them. But if you meet an unexperienced pilot in P-38 you may come to the conclusion, that it's easy prey but if it's a P-38 vet, you better watch out. You can join on WC or any other FR servers. That's there the better P-38 pilots hang around. What is your HL nick? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dont agree. P38 are greatplanes.. but they are at disadvantage at high speed combat. Just keep fight at 500 + kph.. and FW is the top dog to anyone but P51. Put 4 FW190 against 4 P38 and FW will win. 1vs 1 is a situation I do not consider serious one.. although probably P38 would win. I never.. ever engage 1 v1 unless I am BnZ someone really blind (like corsairs tha cant see behind).

You can find me in Spit vs 109 and GG by I/JG1_OldMan.. usually on weekend only. I die a lot.. I admit.. but 60% of my deaths are to B25, about 25% to Spits and rest to other planes. Never got shot by a P38 in months.

The few times a P38 managed to put me in a bad situation I just dove 3 k meters hard turn (he vould not follow...) got separation..climb.. and when it forgoteen bout me.. I came back again.


Don´t understand me wrong.. I like P38 a lot.. and faced many times bf109 and even FW190..while on it... but I would never say a FW that knows that you are aproaching is an easy target. Last time I faced a FW while I was on a P38.. it was Fish there in the FW. I made a good start.. but 20-30 seconds later he turned the table.

When I was newbe I feared P38 more than anything.. maybe because first time I flew online and first plane I faced was Korolov in a p38 :|

GuNzABlaZiN
05-06-2005, 08:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GuNzABlaZiN:
If an A/C isn't popular, the amount of experienced pilots will be very small. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you are mistaken , unpopular planes are the tougher ones, how many noobs persist with the P38? how many noobs persist with the Ki 84 or La7. Big difference. These P38 guys fly their plane out of devotion and learn it inside out so I like to think there are more aces per head in more obscure planes rather than in Good planes.

Ive killed much more Mustangs than Lightings , when I see a spit or a Mustang I know that unless im unlucky this guy is flying this plane because they are a beginner and they thing that the Spitfire/Mustang won the war and were the best WW2 fighters in every category by a mile.

2 months ago a new guy labelled me a cheater because I must have been up to something if his Spit IX LF could not catch my Fw D9 at tree top height in an extended chase. He refusd to belive the fact that some planes (planes that tend to lack the glamour of the 109, spit ect ) actually were any good.

Also many 109 aces? sure there are great 109 pilots - I tend to think its the 108 in the nose and the overmodelled climbing characteristics that put them apart. Give me a Fw 190 D9 or A6 any day of the week.

Mg151 - a real mans cannon http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is true, but there are total n00bs that just want to try out the P38 for the day and then those that fly it exclusively. There is a fine line dividing those players, unlike, for example the FW or 109 series.

VF-2_John_Banks
05-07-2005, 08:04 AM
High speed fights aren't difficult in the P-38. Matter of fact, best turn rate without flaps and roll rate is at high speeds. The only problem is the compression, where the elevator becomes stuck. But in the P-38L, you simply extend the dive brakes.
I have been flying the P-38 since day one but i have never ever seen a FW that could outturn my P-38. At high speeds, you are limited by Gs anyway, so you can harldy pull the highest rate of degrees per second. Also a good way to catch a jap plane, cause their rate of turn isn't that great at high speeds.

I also see many a 109 or FW pilot, who is using weird evading maneuvres. You never see that in any WW2 guncam movie. People fly their planes online in a way, no pilot would or could in RL. There once was a thread about. Basicly it's the lack of G-Forces we don't feel, so you can yank and bank like hell, which would let you puke into your oxygen mask in RL. Btw, one reason why people don't get shot down by P-38s more often is due to the fact that not alot of people fly them. Even as an allied pilot like me, the chance that i see more than 3 P-38s in the air at the same time are very low. Not only on Euro maps but also in Pacific servers. Now imagine how high a chance you have as a Kraut pilot to catch a P-38, when the sky is full of Spits and Mustangs.

There still seems to be the bug, which lets the 109 decellerate like a barndoor which hits the water. They simply put the throttle to idle and can make brake turns like no other. I hope that the new pre BoB FM in the upcoming patch will fix some of these mishaps in the IL2 engine. My hopes are high.

CUJO_1970
05-07-2005, 08:15 AM
I have found this thread to be extremely informative, and would just like to thank everyone that has posted such valuable data on the P-38.

Thank You!

OldMan____
05-07-2005, 08:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VF-2_John_Banks:
High speed fights aren't difficult in the P-38. Matter of fact, best turn rate without flaps and roll rate is at high speeds. The only problem is the compression, where the elevator becomes stuck. But in the P-38L, you simply extend the dive brakes.
I have been flying the P-38 since day one but i have never ever seen a FW that could outturn my P-38. At high speeds, you are limited by Gs anyway, so you can harldy pull the highest rate of degrees per second. Also a good way to catch a jap plane, cause their rate of turn isn't that great at high speeds.

I also see many a 109 or FW pilot, who is using weird evading maneuvres. You never see that in any WW2 guncam movie. People fly their planes online in a way, no pilot would or could in RL. There once was a thread about. Basicly it's the lack of G-Forces we don't feel, so you can yank and bank like hell, which would let you puke into your oxygen mask in RL. Btw, one reason why people don't get shot down by P-38s more often is due to the fact that not alot of people fly them. Even as an allied pilot like me, the chance that i see more than 3 P-38s in the air at the same time are very low. Not only on Euro maps but also in Pacific servers. Now imagine how high a chance you have as a Kraut pilot to catch a P-38, when the sky is full of Spits and Mustangs.

There still seems to be the bug, which lets the 109 decellerate like a barndoor which hits the water. They simply put the throttle to idle and can make brake turns like no other. I hope that the new pre BoB FM in the upcoming patch will fix some of these mishaps in the IL2 engine. My hopes are high. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I quite in contrary fint it hard to aim when flying a P38 at high speed. Moving the nose is not fast enough, and I miss many shots I would hit with a FW190. That is main reason why I think FW is superior, specially in a many planes fight.. where you dont follow a taregt till exaustion. But pay attention on anything that may cross in front of you.


Also.. P38 REALLY needs good RUDDER usage, so it has decreased effectiveness to people with rocker switch only. FW you almost don't need Rudder.

BSS_CUDA
05-07-2005, 09:16 AM
agreed about the rudder useage, it does take lots. but thats what seperates the noob pilots from the Vets, learning to use that rudder effective. also the gunnery once you get used to it is very easy, your frontal visability is unmatched by anything else in the game save the 39 ( which IMHO is junk ) I saw off wings from distance on a regular basis ( of course distance for me is .5 )in regareds to your earlier post about the A4 out turning the 38, I dont know for sure cant say specifically that I faced an A4. I do know the A6 is no match. and at 500 kph thats only 310 MPH and the 38 will out turn you at that speed. clear up to 380 MPH it will turn better.

OldMan____
05-07-2005, 09:42 AM
The A4 does turn much better than any other antons, in fact as well or bether than the Dora, (like the 109G2 does) although the lack of powerplant makes it loose pace to Dora when in a complete turn. I already tested that... at a 90 degree turn at 520 kph on deck.. NOTHING. no plane.. tested all candidates.. nothing can outturn an A4.

Also something that is a disadvantage for P38 is size... can be seen far away.. ID far away.. and is easier to hit at snapshots. So i can usually choose if I am going to fight it or not. But if you manage to bring it close.. undetected.. is indeed dangerous.

About rudder.. sometimes is not only rookiness.. is a mather of not having a good rudder mechanism. I myself consider myself as a veteran pilot, but I can't pay for a pair of rudder, and have to use X45 rocker Switch (CH Pedals would arrive here at my house for about $300 after taxes and transportation, also after money conversion.. would became something like $700 on the point of view of an american or european. At least I base this calculation on the payment I received when I lived in germany)

VF-2_John_Banks
05-07-2005, 10:40 AM
Aiming in the P-38 isn't harder than in the Mustang for example. The part about the rudder goes for all planes, not just the P-38. Without rudder control, aiming is almost pure luck. Beside that, most of my fights aren't undetected. It seems to be my faith, that most guys see me at the same time when i see them, so my fights usually start head on. Sometimes a bit tricky against the 109G-2 but FWs usually only take 2 full turns at best and i am behind them.

Btw, i have turned with an A4 yesterday but he couldn't outturn me. Maybe the initial turn rate on the A4 is very high, due to a good elevator response, but once you have turned for moe than 90 degrees, a P-38 still starts to outturn the A-4, esp. when the speeds starts to slow down. IMO, the G-2 is much more dangerous than any FW variant. I never saw a FW as a serious thread. If i have the choice, i always pick the FW first. My biggest problem is their speed. Whereas a 109 might overheat after some time and has to slow down, the FWs goes on and runs away. That's what i hate. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BSS_CUDA
05-07-2005, 10:47 AM
the Dora turns like a slead compared to the 38, all the Dora has going for it is speed. but if I'm on his 6 a few shots at him if they hit or not he starts bleeding his E to try and avoid. then we are right back into my advantage, a lower speed fight that I can control. I agree with Banks on the Turn of almost every FW I fight. the initial turn is quicker but if it goes over 90 then I own him. every time even if he dives I can stay with him unless he dives from 15-20K ft, but most fights occur in the 5-7 ft range where the FW has no advantage in a dive

horseback
05-07-2005, 11:29 AM
This is easily the most civil and informative thread we've had here in a while-please keep it going, folks.

cheers

horseback

BSS_CUDA
05-07-2005, 11:34 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/353.gif by the way raised my K/D ratio from 1.3 to 1.5 on WC http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif 51 kills 35 deaths with probably 15 of those deaths from that danged 38 flat spin http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif heh I gues thats what happens when you push a plane to its limits, sometimes the plane says NO

BSS_CUDA
05-07-2005, 11:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VF-2_John_Banks:
IMO, the G-2 is much more dangerous than any FW variant. I never saw a FW as a serious thread. If i have the choice, i always pick the FW first. My biggest problem is their speed. Whereas a 109 might overheat after some time and has to slow down, the FWs goes on and runs away. That's what i hate. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

agreed but your faster than the G2 its the G6 or G10 that gives me troubles, G2 out turns you easily, the G6 you can turn with as long as you dont make a mistake, the K will not turn with you period.
so with the G2 you just out run it, the G6 you take your chances and hope for help. the K you fight with and dont try to out climb. the problem is Identifying which 109 your fighting http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

VF-2_John_Banks
05-07-2005, 12:02 PM
LOL right! The problem really is identifying all these 109 variants. I think at lower speeds, where you can use full flaps, you can turn with a G-2, but only with full flaps. The problem is that your enemy is hardly alone and sooner or later you flying 1 vs. many.

Btw, is it only me or did the 109G-2 become so agile since the last patch? I could swear that the G-2 couldn't turn like that before. It seems to turn even better than the F4, which has been known to pilots as the most agile 109 ever. Or maybe that was just a false ID on my part. Wouldn't be the first one.

BSS_CUDA
05-07-2005, 12:50 PM
ya but getting that slow your asking for trouble. it the 38 had the proper acceraltion it might not be such a bad thing. but those 109's stop on a dime and accelerate like a missle

VF-2_John_Banks
05-07-2005, 04:05 PM
The P38 accelerates pretty good though but the way a 109 can stop is beyond recognition.

BSS_CUDA
05-07-2005, 04:37 PM
heh thats ok, if the new flight model is accurate, evertime they do that they'll snap stall a wing http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

GuNzABlaZiN
05-07-2005, 04:40 PM
I wonder if the P38 FM will get updated for 4.0....

VF-2_John_Banks
05-07-2005, 04:49 PM
4.0 will update all FMs of course not just some planes. As they have changed the physics engine, all planes will be effected. If the differences will be that noticable...time will tell. I doubt that the changes will be breath taking but it will definitely be a step into the right direction.

Capt.LoneRanger
05-07-2005, 05:08 PM
I sure hope 4.0 will get it right. The P38 is a good plane as is, but it was a lot better in RL. Just saw a nice documentary on it. The nimble P38 in a fast dive is pure non-sense. The only problem the P38 had up to early J models was the fact, that at high speed the P38 began vibrating due to turbulences. Later J models and up were perfectly stable even above a 780kph dive by adding a small spoiler to the wings.
The other thing is the stall behavior in IL2. It's odd and buggy as is. A P38 that instantly rolls 180 when hit by a 13mm bullet, the flat-spin behavior and acceleration from low speeds is definately patchworthy.

OldMan____
05-07-2005, 09:35 PM
I disagree in 99% said above.


First.. I almost never use rudder to aim.. I got much better precision after I started using rudder only in really hard shots. When you use rudder you throw off your aim realtive to flight path.. so you have quite a good chance .. almost SURE that if you hit it will be oly a pair of bullets since your plane will move relative to target and other bullets will miss. So I only fire when I don´t need rudder.. so if I hit.. i hit lots of bullets.


Lets put some dots at i. When I speak turn.. I am not talking turning circles.. that is MOST STUPID ACM ever. The first 90 degrees are the ONLY turning that mmathers.


You only need to outturn a plane for first 5 seconds... then shoot him!! If you cant get a target solution in 5-10 seconds.. I do not even start moving thowards it.. go get some E and try later.


Also if you are fighting a FW that turn more than 90 degrees.. you are fighting a noob... or someone desesperated. You can turn on him in 2 circles? Any plane can turn on a FW in 2 circles!!! Even a P47!! A FW driver that stay in a turn for 720 degrees.. really has a problem.


Today I shot 7 P38L in spitv109 while at My A4. All of them tryied to turn hard.. I just made a yo-yo when I was too far.. or when I has close.. I just pulled my nose in front of them and opened fire... I usually outturn spitfires this same way.. although they are quicked to enter on turn.. so harder to shoot. Only one of them gave me trouble... he noticed I was going to shoot him if he entered in a turn.. so he commited to a scissor fight with me.. I hit him first... then he brought the scissor to vertical plane and then I decide to leave. since we were getting too slow (dangerous that a spit came in and enjoyed my FW as lunch), while I moved to leave he fliped (very good and precise maneuver) and hit me wiht a hard .50 burst. But I escaped.. and landed.... he .. well he crashed trying to take a shot on me at very end of my escape when I exposed him a chance in a very High G maneuver.. and whith his damaged plane he failed to do it.

Spitfires are much more dangerous.. but P51 are by far the most dangerous ones.


P38 are great planes.. but owning FW? That is completely a NO NO.

VW-IceFire
05-07-2005, 09:39 PM
I have no idea how you don't use rudder to correct onto target...I always use the rudder...when I have no rudder my accuracy decreases substantially...

I've been told not to use it, tried, failed, and went back to whats comfortable for me. Depends on who you are I guess.

Copperhead310th
05-07-2005, 09:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lbhskier37:
P-38 was always my favorite plane when I was growing up. On another note, can't HayateAce just get banned already? He makes Copperhead look like a "luftwhiner" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gifdon't you be cussin' me boy.

BSS_CUDA
05-07-2005, 11:07 PM
oldman. then there are a lotta stupid FW jocks out there. as I stated I fly mostly WC and I can guarantee you with "almost" 100% certainty, they will try to turn with you. I flew quite a lot today, shot down at least 12 FW and half a dozen 109's today and the ONLY 190's that got me was Fish, http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif bastage got me twice while I was engaged with another 190. I fear no FW, if I get on your six your roll rate wont help you. your only way out is to run and that doesnt always save you. did see a new move tonite tho, guy in a 190's did a snap stall at 300 ft trying to force an overshoot, came out of it like it had eyes, LOL total BS RL move, but I realize its part of the game. almost worked too, just hit my flaps poped up and I was right back on his 6 ready for his next attempt. heh didnt make it home http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif and as for your 4-4 FW against 38's. you get real 38 jocks and we'll clean your clocks

Blackdog5555
05-07-2005, 11:55 PM
Oldman is right. Mcquire said.. never get under 300mph and never turn more than 90 Degrees. The problem of DF servers is that you you cant dogfight in a P38. get a shooting solution, take of few shots, watch some tailfeathers fly from your wounded duck, and by the time you fly back and return for a kill, another person has your target. Though, The P38 shouldnt be the only plane which cant do a stall turn without flat spinning.

Cajun76
05-08-2005, 12:06 AM
Blackdog, McGuire was facing Zero's, Ki-43's and other extremely maneuverable a/c. Those tactics are basic for any plane that is faster that is engaging a better manuevering opponent. P-38 vs. Fw, I would expect the P-38 to be able to outturn it.

I don't remember the exact quote, but I remember seeing a video interview with a P-38 pilot who talked about standing one on wingtip and pulling a sustained turn in either direction and holding steady @ 74 mph.

VF-2_John_Banks
05-08-2005, 03:28 AM
Correct, that don't turn for more than 90 degrees was the rule of thumb for the Pacific. Beside that, that not only went for the P-38 jocks, but as well for the guys who flew Hellcat, Corsairs, Spitfires, Hurricanes, Warhawks...in other words, the whole Allied Airforce in the CBI and the rest of the Pacific.

Some words to the stal behaviour of the P-38. It sure is weird, no doubts there, but the P-38 isn't the only plane sufferings from a buggy stall bahaviour. It's the limitation of the engine. It's pretty save to say that no plane in this sim stalls as it should be. They always drop a wing, no matter what. The multi engine FMs are half baken anyway. They were never meant to be in the game at all. I can still remember what Oleg had to do to get the 110 flyable. That was quite an achivement, as it didn't really work in the first place IIRC.

Capt.LoneRanger
05-08-2005, 04:36 AM
The 90deg turn-thing is correct for pacific, because they were faced with the Zeros that could turn on a dime.
In Europe the P38 performed so well, because pilots learned the P38 was best BELOW 10.000ft, where it had an excellent turnrate with 450 to 700kph according to the flight manual (P38J with spoilers). It pulled well above 8Gs. Try to do that with IL2s P38.
The manual also states, that the P38 is a good turn-fighter for lower speeds against most LW planes, even below 300kph, because of the overall lift and large elevator surface.

Besides that, I think we all agree that it's just a game and P38 is certainly not the only flight modell off. I just hope 4.0 will handle 2 engines planes better - would be nice if any beta-tester could give a word about it.

BSS_CUDA
05-08-2005, 06:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blackdog5555:
The problem of DF servers is that you you cant dogfight in a P38. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

NOT TRUE. there are 4 of us that do it on a regular basis on WC. I WILL get in there and mix it up with anything. as will Bamboo,Worrky, and Motrin. we have been so successfull at it we have another group of guys starting to fly the 38. also question for Oldman, what servers do you fly? went looking for your stats on WC and you have none. just the curiosity in me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

SeaNorris
05-08-2005, 06:52 AM
http://airpower.callihan.cc/images/ww2allies/P38/03-DAS-P38-11.JPG
http://web.tiscali.it/Nanni/CFS/wallpapers/BnWp-P38L.jpg
http://www.flightjournal.com/common/images/covers/220/P38L.jpg

Love the P-38 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif
http://www.ww2guide.com/p38_5.jpg

OldMan____
05-08-2005, 08:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_CUDA:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blackdog5555:
The problem of DF servers is that you you cant dogfight in a P38. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

NOT TRUE. there are 4 of us that do it on a regular basis on WC. I WILL get in there and mix it up with anything. as will Bamboo,Worrky, and Motrin. we have been so successfull at it we have another group of guys starting to fly the 38. also question for Oldman, what servers do you fly? went looking for your stats on WC and you have none. just the curiosity in me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Usually I fly spitvs109 and GG. Don't like warclouds because I loose connection a lot there. Also in Spitvs109 you can see much more realistic combat (contrary to what people say) since you can face quite often goups of 5 to 7 B25 flying close packed formations at 5000 meters.. escorted by fighters. Damm imersive if you ask me. These B25 shot me down more times than any other plane... followed close by Spitfires that I did not saw comming behind me. Think about 25 of my around 40 deaths on spitv109 were B25 in last weeks of B25 formation fighting. BTW. Congrats to all BirdsofPrey team.. great server.


And as you said.. you should judge FW capacity by Fish or simmilar pilot. He is somehow better than me (at least more pacient and with bether awarenes). Not by pilots that try to turn with you in a long circle. Sometimes I get to greedy and do it myself.. but 99% of time I do it I pay the price.


When you compare FW with a P38.. you should make the same thing as P38 did about Japanese planes, although in smaller scale. If you keep above 400 kph and never turn more than 90 degree you are on par with P38. At extreme speeds (near 600) you are in advantage.

Agree if a P38 get in close six I can t evade without help.. but that is tru for MANY planes. Same for a spit on may tail.. for a P51 or corsair. The point is not let it get there. Id a plane far away is a very good start.


About rudder. Just need to be a little bit more pacient, and use rudder preemptive way. You use it so when you get at firing position you can shoot withou using it. Using the rudder while shooting is not very good. I hit less often now (not much less) but when I hit I hit much harder. I know it is hard and I did not beleived myself on beggining, but my ACC went up from 4.5% (normal with wing mounted FW guns) to about 8%.

BSS_CUDA
05-08-2005, 08:39 AM
checked out the spits stats page. just to see how they compare with mine on WC http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif our stats are almost identical K/D ratio 1.6 vs 1.5, hit% 5.1 vs 6.7, kills about the same 73 vs 58 and this from an http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif " inferior plane" and you almost exclusivly fly the FW and I do fly ONLY the 38. you talk about the clear advantage the the FW has over the 38. I fail to see it with these stats. also there are NO 38's on the spits server, so I cannot see where your getting your comparisons from, at least on this server. I do regularly fly against FW pilots on WC. dont take this wrong I am not bashing your skills as I have never flown against you that I can recall. but statistically we are at a dead heat against a plane you say is not as good http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

oldmans stats on Spits (http://warbirdsofprey.game-host.org/fbd2stats-02/playerdetails.php?id=3658)
My stats on Warclouds (http://www.stats.war-clouds.com/wf/playerdetails.php?id=462)

OldMan____
05-08-2005, 09:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_CUDA:
checked out the spits stats page. just to see how they compare with mine on WC http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif our stats are almost identical K/D ratio 1.6 vs 1.5, hit% 5.1 vs 6.7, kills about the same 73 vs 58 and this from an http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif " inferior plane" and you almost exclusivly fly the FW and I do fly ONLY the 38. you talk about the clear advantage the the FW has over the 38. I fail to see it with these stats. also there are NO 38's on the spits server, so I cannot see where your getting your comparisons from, at least on this server. I do regularly fly against FW pilots on WC. dont take this wrong I am not bashing your skills as I have never flown against you that I can recall. but statistically we are at a dead heat against a plane you say is not as good http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

oldmans stats on Spits (http://warbirdsofprey.game-host.org/fbd2stats-02/playerdetails.php?id=3658)
My stats on Warclouds (http://www.stats.war-clouds.com/wf/playerdetails.php?id=462) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes there are P38 in this server in a few maps. If I remember correctly 2 maps. Same maps that have 190A4.. my favorite one.

look at right top of:
http://warbirdsofprey.game-host.org/fbd2stats-02/aircraftdetails.php?id=11



Bur as I said.. NOT a single of these defeats were to P38.


My kill to death ration was around 3 until these B25 formation stuff begun. Then my Kill death ratio some days end &lt; 1.... Arrg.. same time I love them.. i hate them. And the same thing can be said about you, our stats are simmilar, so our affirmations have simmilar strenght as mine. We could take as a base that our skill probably are equivalent.


And I NEVER told about a CLEAR advantage of the FW.. I told there is NOT a clear advantage of the P38 against the FW (that is what you stated). If p38 had clear advantage against FW I would have been shot by them quite some times.. since as you can see by the stats is not that hard to shot me down, even B25 can do it. Overall both planes are not far appart from each other, although I prefer the FW.


As I said.. P38 is GREAT plane.. but it does not have THAT kind of advantage that you say it does have.


You can look aircraft stats at GG stats page. All antons have &gt; 1 kill death ratio. Some at 2.0 level. P38 L has 0.3 kill death ratio level. If P38 has such advantage.. why such results? The dangerous 109G2 has a much lower kill death ration than any Anton in same server. Even the 109K4 have lower Kill death ratio than most antons in GG.

BSS_CUDA
05-08-2005, 09:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OldMan____:
If P38 has such advantage.. why such results? The dangerous 109G2 has a much lower kill death ration than any Anton in same server. Even the 109K4 have lower Kill death ratio than most antons in GG. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

2 reasons

1. inexperienced pilots not knowing their aircraft
2. the mind set that the 38 is ONLY good for ground pounding. which instantly puts you at a disadvantage.

the stats on Spits bear this out38, Air vs Ground pound (http://warbirdsofprey.game-host.org/fbd2stats-02/aircraftdetails.php?id=24)

because when Ground pounding you are trying to take out a target and you allow your opponent to get on your 6. when I ground pound I can ALWAYS count on getting shot down, its the mission objective thats important. so I concentrate on my target with the exclusion of all else. but when I go out to engage the enemy headon. I go with the confidence that I will RTB. in all honesty the 4 top 38 jocks on WC consider the FW as an easy kill. maybe the pilots are inferior, I have a hard time believeing that. I do worry about the 109's tho. but 15 seconds into the fight I'll know if its a G2 or a K and can deceide if I should bugout or fight. My personal experience in fighting a FW headon, is that it does ONLY 1 thing better than the 38 and thats Dive from alt, and that it does only marginally better

GuNzABlaZiN
05-08-2005, 10:23 AM
I've noticed that it's much harder to shake a Ki-84 than a FW.

OldMan____
05-08-2005, 10:39 AM
Well I am pretty sure the 4 top FW 190 aces also find the P38 easy kill (although P47 is easier)... so nothing strange here. I find bf 109 pathetic enemies when I fight them in a p38j, unless in very good hands (consider I when I fly p38 I do it against 109g6). Just bring them to high speed and they elevator sucks so much they will miss you and loose a lot of E trying to change course. Of course.. geting close to a 109 in a stall fighting is plain stupid... it will turn that damm mk108 on you and puff you are gone. Te bf109g2 is too slow... not a problem unless you want to have problems with it.

Also I think we are talking about very different combat styles. I never stay and fight alone. When alone I just BnZ.. Don't think knife fighting alone in a FW a wise thing to do. Ina P38 I will stay and fight up to 2 enemies.. but never more than that. And I fear FW because I wont be able to run from it if I need to disengage.


People usually says. Only thing it does good is running. Well that is BEST INDIVIDUAL thing you could want to do well.

Fish6891
05-08-2005, 01:05 PM
P38 morsels....MMMMmmmmmm

BSS_CUDA
05-08-2005, 01:31 PM
Fish you Bastage http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif all bow to the almighty fish http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif I will get you, one of these times, I will appear on your 6 and then I'll own you http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Loki-PF
05-08-2005, 02:27 PM
My own little bit to add. I usually gravitate towards the early war stuff, which is why I like ZvsW as a server and I usually am flying Japanese as the Alied side has too many pilots.

Recently I've been trying to fly the 38 more because I've found it a challenge to fly, and also because I've been trying to compare the FM that we have in game to real life. I've always suspected the 38 is a bit off but this is another topic altogether.

Below is a screenshot that I'm very proud of (name changed to protect the innocent). I worked very hard to get that first kill in a 38 and it took alot of trying and dying.

I agree wholeheartedly with others who have said it's a beautifull plane/model. Definately love her lines. (also love the FW for all-time fav looks)

http://home.mchsi.com/~mack_rc51/P-38.jpg

Thanks to all those posting 38 tips and tricks! See you online!

PS Does anyone know if there is any organized effort underway to gather facts in game from RL to send to Oleg and try to get the 38 fixed? If so who is heading it up?

HellToupee
05-08-2005, 03:20 PM
i shot down a6s in my beaufighter, hell its my most flown plane spitty second and 1.3 kd ratio http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BSS_CUDA
05-08-2005, 04:04 PM
I think Gibbage is or was all over the 38FM issues, but as has been stated its a limitation of the engine, and keep with the 38 once you learn her she's a dream to fly, http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif and be prepared there are somedays you'll get waxed, http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif but as you get more comfortable you'll gain more confidence with it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Loki-PF
05-08-2005, 09:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_CUDA:
I think Gibbage is or was all over the 38FM issues, but as has been stated its a limitation of the engine, and keep with the 38 once you learn her she's a dream to fly, http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif and be prepared there are somedays you'll get waxed, http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif but as you get more comfortable you'll gain more confidence with it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rgr that Cuda. What I was referring to though is hardly a limit of the game engine. I can handle the torque (that the 38 has in spades compared to other twins), I can handle the head shake, (if you wait to fire until your close enough it just sprinkles lead all over the target!).... What I can't deal with is going into compresability below 6000 feet (especially in the pacific theatre with all that warm most dense air). This is a programmed response due to the flight model not a limitation of the game engine

Jagdklinger
05-24-2005, 03:57 AM
Bump.

There should be more on the P38 - it is one of the coolest yet avoided aircraft in the game, methinks.

Besides the '90% prop pitch' what other tactics are there to employ with the P38? Engine management seems pretty forgiving but are there ways to 'tweak' it?

With the narrow cone of fire, could you shoot beyond the usual 50-cal 200m or so? (I.e. my P51 convergance is 150m but the P38 tempts me to shoot from beyond that). What convergance?

Anyone have any rough IAS data for when the flaps jam?

What tactics for each Lw opponent (190, 109)?
P38 outclimbs and out-turns a 190 but seems to have no 'edge' against a 109...

Any 'special moves' that favour a P38? I.e. 190 has scissors, split-S (anything that favours roll-rate). What about hammerheads and Immelmanns to utlize decent P38 climb?

ClnlSandersLite
05-24-2005, 04:55 AM
Just noticed something:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_CUDA:
also the 38 was the ONLY fighter to be produced from start to finish of the war. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That should read:
also the 38 was the only AMERICAN fighter to be produced from start to finish of the war.

mynameisroland
05-24-2005, 05:23 AM
The P38 is the easiest target out there except for the Zero and the Hurricane. A nice big target, locks up when flying fast and almost exclusively flown by noobs - almost. Even against a pro P38 pilot if its one on one id back me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BSS_CUDA
05-24-2005, 08:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jagdklinger:
Bump.

There should be more on the P38 - it is one of the coolest yet avoided aircraft in the game, methinks.

Besides the '90% prop pitch' what other tactics are there to employ with the P38? Engine management seems pretty forgiving but are there ways to 'tweak' it?

With the narrow cone of fire, could you shoot beyond the usual 50-cal 200m or so? (I.e. my P51 convergance is 150m but the P38 tempts me to shoot from beyond that). What convergance?

Anyone have any rough IAS data for when the flaps jam?

What tactics for each Lw opponent (190, 109)?
P38 outclimbs and out-turns a 190 but seems to have no 'edge' against a 109...

Any 'special moves' that favour a P38? I.e. 190 has scissors, split-S (anything that favours roll-rate). What about hammerheads and Immelmanns to utlize decent P38 climb? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Convergence doesnt matter, altho mine is set at 110, for when I'm flying other aircraft. if a lufty comes at me headon I'll openup early, they usually break off then I'm at the advantage. I've sawed off 190 wings @ 4-500 meters before

flaps jamb over 240 MPH dont know the KPH, you can deploy any setting below 230 MPH

190's just out fly them, you out perform them in ALMOST every area except roll and dive and they can be countered
109's it depends on the model, some you can out turn, some you can out run if neccesary

the 38 prefers the verticle, you got me thinking, do I have any trademark manouver? I couldnt think of one, I usually try getting my opponent into a pattern and set him up. and if I dont straight out down him just when he thinks he's going to get on my 6 I pull up slightly, barrelroll, and drop right into guns range on his 6, I cant begin to count how many kills I've gotten this way. as Lord Vader said " all to easy " I fly by feel more than anything, which sometimes bites me in the **** http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

BSS_CUDA
05-24-2005, 08:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ClnlSandersLite:
Just noticed something:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_CUDA:
also the 38 was the ONLY fighter to be produced from start to finish of the war. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That should read:
also the 38 was the only AMERICAN fighter to be produced from start to finish of the war. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

your right, I was in an American plane mindset because of the topic

BSS_CUDA
05-24-2005, 08:27 AM
I really wish some of the other 38 Vets would chime in on these subjects, I would really like the learn what they do different than me. maybe I can improve myself somemore http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

VF-2_John_Banks
05-24-2005, 09:52 AM
I can safely say, tha tthe so called "prop pitch" trick doesn't work. I tried to reproduce what others said about it but still no go. Going full throttle with the prop pitch set to 90% does absolutely nothing, to increase your speed and the same goes for the new 4.0 FM.

BSS_CUDA
05-24-2005, 10:27 AM
how long did you fly with the pitch changed? its not an instantainious change

VF-2_John_Banks
05-24-2005, 10:38 AM
Long enough. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif And even if it would take a long time, it wouldn't be suitable for a combat scaneraio, as flying straight for a long time isn't very healthy.

LilHorse
05-24-2005, 10:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SlickStick:
The one in this game is kind of a dog, IMO. Not good for much other than excellent ground pounding and B and Z.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why would you want to do anything other than BnZ in a P-38? I can't understand why ppl turn fight in this plane. For that matter I can't understand why ppl would want to turn fight at all. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I mean even if your plane turns well, why would you want to? Unless you've been caught by someone who's plane doesn't turn as well as yours and they're dumb enough to turn fight with you.

The whole "dogfighting skillz" is a bunch of gamer cr@p. If you get into a dogfight you've already made a mistake. The whole object in the war was to shoot your enemy down. Or at least drive him off and take him out of the fight.

The best kill is a bounce. Period. The guy is studying his instrument panel, or taking a bite of his sandwich and BANG! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

GuNzABlaZiN
05-24-2005, 08:33 PM
I'm still trying to learn how to fly this baby, getting better but if I get Ki-84 on my tail, there ain't no getting him off. People tell me not to turn, well then what am I supposed to do if he's behind me? Dive and then yoyo to make him loose energy?

AerialTarget
05-24-2005, 09:14 PM
You can neither outrun nor outturn the Ki-84 in the P-38 that is in the game.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LilHorse:
Why would you want to do anything other than BnZ in a P-38? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You mean, other than the fact that the real P-38 could also turn fight?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LilHorse:
I can't understand why ppl turn fight in this plane. For that matter I can't understand why ppl would want to turn fight at all.

The whole "dogfighting skillz" is a bunch of gamer cr@p. If you get into a dogfight you've already made a mistake. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tell that to the aces who - surprise, surprise - turn fought as well as boom and zoom, regardless of what plane they flew. Moreover, tell that to America's leading ace, who happened to make all of his kills in the P-38, and who also happened to turn fight in the P-38.

And in any event, the P-38 in the game is a miserable boom and zoomer. It bleeds energy at a marvelous rate, and unless you can kill your victim in the first pass or so, you're toast.

I've never been shot down by a P-38.

Gwalker70
05-24-2005, 11:36 PM
I can say this.. P38 with WEP in 4.0 is really nice to fly... its my favorite plane in 4.0 so far.. not sure how it does overall.. but its nice.. my grandmother help built them .. so its kinda tight with me.. even though generaly hate the allied scumbags

AFJ_Locust
05-25-2005, 12:02 AM
U WANT MY P38 ???

U CANT HANDEL MY P38 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

HotelBushranger
05-25-2005, 03:30 AM
How do you fly a P-38? High speed fighter?

mynameisroland
05-25-2005, 04:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AerialTarget:
You can neither outrun nor outturn the Ki-84 in the P-38 that is in the game.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LilHorse:
Why would you want to do anything other than BnZ in a P-38? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You mean, other than the fact that the real P-38 could also turn fight?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LilHorse:
I can't understand why ppl turn fight in this plane. For that matter I can't understand why ppl would want to turn fight at all.

The whole "dogfighting skillz" is a bunch of gamer cr@p. If you get into a dogfight you've already made a mistake. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tell that to the aces who - surprise, surprise - turn fought as well as boom and zoom, regardless of what plane they flew. Moreover, tell that to America's leading ace, who happened to make all of his kills in the P-38, and who also happened to turn fight in the P-38.

And in any event, the P-38 in the game is a miserable boom and zoomer. It bleeds energy at a marvelous rate, and unless you can kill your victim in the first pass or so, you're toast.

I've never been shot down by a P-38. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aerial Target you can add the P38 to every other plane in the game - NONE have shot you down as you dont own the game. Whether you have been shot down by P38's in other games or In real life is neither here nor there.

Back on topic , all the P38 has going for it is it looks good and its pretty tough against current Mg151, against Mg151 with gunpods or Mk108's its just a big target.

Sturm_Williger
05-25-2005, 06:58 AM
Well, I'm far ( not sure what adjective is appropriate to indicate how far, but quite far http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ) from an expert flyer ( plus I usually fly Blue ), but I've found the P38 very useful for taking on Me262's.

So yeah, HotelBush Ranger, a high speed fighter.

Cheers

BSS_CUDA
05-25-2005, 08:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:
Back on topic , all the P38 has going for it is it looks good and its pretty tough against current Mg151, against Mg151 with gunpods or Mk108's its just a big target. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

how often do you fly it? and on what servers? and name me any plane thats not a BIG target against the 108's !!!

your statments are based on what? chasing a ground pounder thats locked on his target and not trying to fly defensive? what LW plane do you fly? just my morbid curiosity. a P38 vet is more than a match for almost any lufty plane. problem is there are just a hand full of us that fly it regularly. in game there is NO 190 that will compete with a 38 1-1, and with the new 4.0 it will be even worse for the 190's. the speed and climbing increase in the Late 38 is spectacular, the flat spins is almost eliminated, you virtually just let go of the stick and she recovers. you can turn full elevator @ 90-100 MPH and no stall. at 400+ MPH you "start" to get a minor hint of the elevator lockup. from what I can see there are no glaring faults with the 38 anymore, maybe just a little mushy aileron response at slow speeds, but that will be the same for all aircraft. the ONLY FW that will even stand a chance against the 38 at speed will be the Dora, but she will lose out in every other area, I dont give a rip about the diving ability, because most fights are 10k or less, so that will be of no advantage to you because I'll be faster, say good by to the FW bat turn, http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif its history.the P38 in this game is more than a capable fighter, and will hold its own against any LW aircraft. any noob can jump into a FW plane and in very little time will be racking up kills.
( not implying anything against the current company )
they are relativly easy to fly and the 108's make kills, well I'll leave the adjetives to you. the same cannot be said for the 38. it takes someone thats morbidly sadistic to fly the 38 in this game. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif someone that loves to be hurt, because thats whats gonna happen when you first start flying it. you will die LOTS, but that all changes one day when you realize. DAYUM http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif this plane has alotta potential. and I think finally with 4.0 it will be realised http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

BSS_CUDA
05-25-2005, 08:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
How do you fly a P-38? High speed fighter? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

any way you want if you want to BnZ with it, it will do it not as well as a 190 or 47 but it will do it
if you want to TnB with it, have at it, she wont let you down, you can turn with the best of the LW. just learn her first and be prepared to get downed until you do http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

LilHorse
05-25-2005, 09:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AerialTarget:
You can neither outrun nor outturn the Ki-84 in the P-38 that is in the game.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LilHorse:
Why would you want to do anything other than BnZ in a P-38? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You mean, other than the fact that the real P-38 could also turn fight?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LilHorse:
I can't understand why ppl turn fight in this plane. For that matter I can't understand why ppl would want to turn fight at all.

The whole "dogfighting skillz" is a bunch of gamer cr@p. If you get into a dogfight you've already made a mistake. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tell that to the aces who - surprise, surprise - turn fought as well as boom and zoom, regardless of what plane they flew. Moreover, tell that to America's leading ace, who happened to make all of his kills in the P-38, and who also happened to turn fight in the P-38.
. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, there's always an exception to the rule, especially where an exceptional pilot is concerned (Bong). But "dogfighting" dwindled very early and very rapidly in the war. Turnfights became the exception, and the rule became high speed "hit and run" or "slashing" attacks. Even the Japanese, who held on most tenatiously to a dogfighting type doctrine, eventually saw near the end of the war that they were hopelessly out moded and had to change their tactics and their fighter design philosophy. Of course, by then, it was too late.

AVG_WarHawk
05-25-2005, 10:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LilHorse:
Yeah, there's always an exception to the rule, especially where an exceptional pilot is concerned (Bong). But "dogfighting" dwindled very early and very rapidly in the war. Turnfights became the exception, and the rule became high speed "hit and run" or "slashing" attacks. Even the Japanese, who held on most tenatiously to a dogfighting type doctrine, eventually saw near the end of the war that they were hopelessly out moded and had to change their tactics and their fighter design philosophy. Of course, by then, it was too late. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Are you referring to the Ohka?

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/air_power/ap22.jpg

mynameisroland
05-25-2005, 10:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_CUDA:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:
Back on topic , all the P38 has going for it is it looks good and its pretty tough against current Mg151, against Mg151 with gunpods or Mk108's its just a big target. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

how often do you fly it? and on what servers? and name me any plane thats not a BIG target against the 108's !!!

your statments are based on what? chasing a ground pounder thats locked on his target and not trying to fly defensive? what LW plane do you fly? just my morbid curiosity. a P38 vet is more than a match for almost any lufty plane. problem is there are just a hand full of us that fly it regularly. in game there is NO 190 that will compete with a 38 1-1, and with the new 4.0 it will be even worse for the 190's. the speed and climbing increase in the Late 38 is spectacular, the flat spins is almost eliminated, you virtually just let go of the stick and she recovers. you can turn full elevator @ 90-100 MPH and no stall. at 400+ MPH you "start" to get a minor hint of the elevator lockup. from what I can see there are no glaring faults with the 38 anymore, maybe just a little mushy aileron response at slow speeds, but that will be the same for all aircraft. the ONLY FW that will even stand a chance against the 38 at speed will be the Dora, but she will lose out in every other area, I dont give a rip about the diving ability, because most fights are 10k or less, so that will be of no advantage to you because I'll be faster, say good by to the FW bat turn, http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif its history.the P38 in this game is more than a capable fighter, and will hold its own against any LW aircraft. any noob can jump into a FW plane and in very little time will be racking up kills.
( not implying anything against the current company )
they are relativly easy to fly and the 108's make kills, well I'll leave the adjetives to you. the same cannot be said for the 38. it takes someone thats morbidly sadistic to fly the 38 in this game. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif someone that loves to be hurt, because thats whats gonna happen when you first start flying it. you will die LOTS, but that all changes one day when you realize. DAYUM http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif this plane has alotta potential. and I think finally with 4.0 it will be realised http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry Cuda , but I think we have covered a lot of this before. You posted your excellent KD a while back which was in the ratio of 1.3 to 1 in your favour. Wow. You also gave the excuse that you always help a team mate and end up down low with 5 x 109's on your 6 thats why you die so much - oh that and the stall. Heres a bit of advice dont stall your plane ! when patch 4.0 comes out and you stall at 100m you will still die, no magic cure for bad flying. With regards to you flying at 10k ? Then why post that excuse in the previous thread to support your KD? If you are dying at the ratio of 1.3 to 1 at 10k high you must be doing something wrong because as you pointed out few Luft planes perform as well as they should at altitude.

Id also like to say that there is never a true 1 on 1 scenario in an online war so your claim 1 on 1 you could take any Luft pilot in almost any plane is wack. If you fly smart you can be dangerous in any plane, its the flying smart bit I wonder about as you would need to be doing something wrong if your KD is so low in a uber plane like the P38. You are also clutching at patch 4.0 to give you more performance and a more favourable FM , why? are you finding it difficult to do well in P38, do you Need the patch to aid you?

"The only Fw that will stand a chance at speed against the P38 will be the Dora"

Sorry mate even the Fw A4 performs better at speed than the P38. Probably because the Fw was designed to manuever at high speed having control forces lighter than most if not all other piston engined fighters. I have taken the Fw D9 to over 1050 Kmh on line in dogfights and have not suffered even a single popped rivet. Unfortunately the same cannot be said reg the P38. Try and follow an Fw in a barrel roll at over 600kmh - what happens? Try and follow a Fw in a scissors what happens? Try to follow in a dive, a split S, go for a head on, out turn an Fw on your 6 at high speed... any of the above will result in you hitting the silk.

You are also jumping at conclusions when you label me a 108 fan boy. I down the most P38's when im in a D9 or an A5/6 map restrictions permitting. I stated that the Mg151 is underpowered in game and that 108 is desirable against a large target. Only last night I shot down two P38's in my D9, and in an earlier combat lastnight myself and a wingman overcame 5 spitfires chasing us in a running fight downing all 5. How would you handle 5 Spitfires against 2 P38's when the attack you and latch on to your 6 after taking off?


"any noob can jump into a FW plane and in very little time will be racking up kills.
( not implying anything against the current company )
they are relativly easy to fly and the 108's make kills, well I'll leave the adjetives to you. the same cannot be said for the 38. it takes someone thats morbidly sadistic to fly the 38 in this game. someone that loves to be hurt, because thats whats gonna happen when you first start flying it. you will die LOTS, but that all changes one day when you realize. DAYUM this plane has alotta potential. and I think finally with 4.0 it will be realised"

Again you are categorising me as noob, if you want to get out of an arguement this way then fine, however to use your own rational if you spend 500hrs plus learning the P38 and only just now achieving KD parity then how much - in the same time period- will a Fw pilot improved?

Your logic is flawed as you imply that the P38 is unique in so far as if you practice in it you get better ! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif the same goes for wait for it ! ............. every other plane in the game !

P38 in RL was not the amazing war winning plane you make it out to be, it was a good all round, expensive design. It also had its flaws , as im sure you are aware. The Fw 190 was also a fine design, I think however the Fw retrospectively can be called a 'Great' fighter design, I would hesitate before awarding the P38 a similar status.

regards

Boemher

I fly on UKD http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BSS_CUDA
05-25-2005, 02:14 PM
Boy you are the sensitive type arent you?
let me review my post, maybe I missed where I called you a fanboy

&lt;searching&gt;
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
they are relativly easy to fly and the 108's make kills, well I'll leave the adjetives to you </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

nope never said it, never implied it

let me see where I called you a noob.


&lt; searching&gt;

no never said it never implied it. infact I went out of my way to not connect you to it since I have never flown against you
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">( not implying anything against the current company )
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

so tell me then noob fanboy since you seem to liken that term to yourself http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif who's the one jumping to conclusions?

when you REREAD my post you'll notice my point. that comparativly the 109 is the luft version of the spit, where the 38 is the luft version of the 110, so when you get over your holier than thou attitude. oooh me and my wingman downed 5 spits!!! BFD!!!! I once downed 3 190's and 2 109's in 1 sorte, does that make me God????? I fly almost exclusivly Allied, every so aften I go Axis, and do very VERY well. my personal experience is that the 109 is easy to fly, with the only drawback being visability which you get used to, the guns are a joke! my time on target in an Axis plane is a fraction of the time in an allied plane, even with the 20's on the 38. and I hit at a 7%+ clip, try downing a target with the 108's then try it with the 50's. but I dont really care its part of the game and I deal with it. am I a perfect pilot? far from it but as I said I dont BnZ I could have the 5-6 to 1 ratio's if I did, but to me thats BORING, I enjoy finding out who's know's their aircraft better, as this is a game and its supposed to be fun. so if your going to take offense at my posts then I would suggest you find another thread to post in, because I said NOTHING to insult you.

AerialTarget
05-25-2005, 02:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:
Aerial Target you can add the P38 to every other plane in the game - NONE have shot you down as you dont own the game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a very good example of a very false assumption. I own legal versions of all of the IL-2 games except for Pacific Fighter (a cheap copy of which, I hate to say, is in the mail as we speak). I played this game since a few months of the old IL-2 Sturmovik's release.

BSS_CUDA
05-25-2005, 05:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:


Sorry Cuda , but I think we have covered a lot of this before. You posted your excellent KD a while back which was in the ratio of 1.3 to 1 in your favour. Wow. You also gave the excuse that you always help a team mate and end up down low with 5 x 109's on your 6 thats why you die so much - oh that and the stall. Heres a bit of advice dont stall your plane ! when patch 4.0 comes out and you stall at 100m you will still die, no magic cure for bad flying. With regards to you flying at 10k ? Then why post that excuse in the previous thread to support your KD? If you are dying at the ratio of 1.3 to 1 at 10k high you must be doing something wrong because as you pointed out few Luft planes perform as well as they should at altitude.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
First off "I" never claimed 1.3 k/d excellent, thanx for the props http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
Second, I make no excuses for getting shot down,
Third, you dont fly the 38 much do you? because if you did then you wouldnt spout off such BS, try it sometime so I can laugh at you when it stalls with no warning and you can't get out of it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif
now here's a bit of advise for you http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif act like a man dont come into a perfectly good thread and **** on it like you have with me and Aerialtarget, if you have something constructive to say then say it, as of yet all I have seen you do is say the 38 sucks, you dont debate, you dont give out pointers, you dont even "try" to tell us what possible way you can out perform us all we get it keep your speed above 600kph, well here's a little hint for ya sunshine, NO fight will stay above 600kph NONE not 1 single one, some time you will either level off or need to climb and when you do I'll be right there with ya, you just go ahead and keep underestimating the 38 suites me just fine

mynameisroland
05-26-2005, 07:06 AM
There is no insult taken from any of your posts, pls re read mine and look at the parts where I discuss comparitive performance between the P38 and the Fw. That is the main topic of my post.

I use the KD ratio as an example that the P38 is not as great as you claim. You are an obvious P38 devotee as i am an Fw fan yet you do not back up any of your claims with any facts or even advice for other P38 pilots. You keep refering to the patch hoping that the FM will improve your plane. Why, is it severely lacking? I have flown the P38 , I fly allied to even up the teams as neccessary but I predominatly fly the Fw 190 as you might have guessed. The P38 is a good plane but I dont see any great advantages that you see. One on one it can outmanuver the Fw 190 at slow speeds (below 400k)in a turn, it can also climb more steeply before it stalls. Now I could say that about pretty much every other fighter in the game - does that mean that these fighters are better? The Me 109 holds the advantages in slow manuevers against the P38 does that mean it is a better fighter ? I'll let you decide.

I know you fly in a T and B style because you prefer that, cool thats fine. I fight using E tactics now that does not mean I strictly only boom and zoom it means I acknowledge basic rules of gravity, acceleration, altitude and the relative state of the enemy figher. That is the way to fight in a Fw Im sorry if I dont fight slow and low and turnfight.

regards

Boemher

mynameisroland
05-26-2005, 07:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AerialTarget:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:
Aerial Target you can add the P38 to every other plane in the game - NONE have shot you down as you dont own the game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a very good example of a very false assumption. I own legal versions of all of the IL-2 games except for Pacific Fighter (a cheap copy of which, I hate to say, is in the mail as we speak). I played this game since a few months of the old IL-2 Sturmovik's release. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My bad, Aerial. It came from a post where you mentioned you didnt own Pacific fighters.

The P38 doesnt have the control authority at speeds to B and Z, it doesnt have the agility to T and B it is a half way house. Its inherent qualities contradict each other. It is very fast yet has to slow down to manuver whereas a Fw or a Mustang has the invaluble advantage of staying fast and manuvering. It turns well with flaps deployed yet doesnt like to be rolled hard in to a reversal without stalling.

It is a cool plane , one of my all time faves but it needs some compressibilty looked at for its effectiveness to improve.

HotelBushranger
05-26-2005, 08:56 AM
Cheers Cuda http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif Got into a P-38 a coupla times tonight, didn't do too bad, got a kill every flight (2 flights http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif)

geetarman
05-26-2005, 09:26 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by mynameisroland:

The P38 doesnt have the control authority at speeds to B and Z, it doesnt have the agility to T and B it is a half way house. Its inherent qualities contradict each other. It is very fast yet has to slow down to manuver whereas a Fw or a Mustang has the invaluble advantage of staying fast and manuvering.
----------------------------------------------

As a dedicated Allied flyer, I would agree with this statement 100% (from a 190 jock http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). I used to fly the P-38 strictly for about 18 months. Loved it, but found the Mustang a more capable plane when flouwn correctly.

mynameisroland
05-26-2005, 09:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by geetarman:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by mynameisroland:

The P38 doesnt have the control authority at speeds to B and Z, it doesnt have the agility to T and B it is a half way house. Its inherent qualities contradict each other. It is very fast yet has to slow down to manuver whereas a Fw or a Mustang has the invaluble advantage of staying fast and manuvering.
----------------------------------------------

As a dedicated Allied flyer, I would agree with this statement 100% (from a 190 jock http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). I used to fly the P-38 strictly for about 18 months. Loved it, but found the Mustang a more capable plane when flouwn correctly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Mustang is probably my second fave ride, I even love the .50's they are awesome at convergence and if you set the distance to 400m like i do ( just got used to this over time) you can achieve amazing deflection shots.

The P38 has the same probs Imo as the 109, what is the use of being in an aircraft that can achieve over 600- 700k easily in a shallow dive on to a bandit only for it to be imovable when you reach firing range and the bandit evades. Same situation in a Mustang or an Fw you can adjust your aim easily and hit your target.

Now theres a match Fw D9 vs a Mustang http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif had great battles with this match up as both planes are very closely matched.

Hristos
05-26-2005, 02:11 PM
here's a neat track of me against Cpl.LongSprayer http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

P-38 is one of those rare planes I mix against low and slow while in 190. I can't outturn it, but I still try http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://free-kc.t-com.hr/nino/cpt.ntrk

Capt.LoneRanger
05-26-2005, 03:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> here's a neat track of me against Cpl.LongSprayer Wink. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're lucky I am http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Capt.LoneRanger
05-26-2005, 03:39 PM
Nice track!

I just realized two things:

1. I'm way too much flying the P38 like a P40, still. I can't come over my habits.

2. My goodness, were you lucky, I still do, man!

Hristos
05-26-2005, 03:53 PM
Nah, P38 on my 6 is easiest plane to shake off. I believe I wasn't pinged at all in those scissors.

Far more dangerous were nose to nose turns, where p38 lower radius gave you an edge. As well as 500m+ sprays.

Considering the fight was mostly TnB slow on the deck, I think I did well. I usually never fight enemy on my 6. Strangely enough, with P38 I feel safer when it is on my 6 - I know I can make it overshoot and that is my only chance in slow speed combat. Still, my only advantage was roll rate, nothing else. 9 out of 10 times I'd just fly away and come back when you give up the chase http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Anyway, I got the kill in the end, as you landed before me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

This fight was all in favor of P38 - it turned better and accelerated almost as good as Fw 190. Fw 190, on the other hand, couldn't use its dive advantage and high speed turn advantage. Only roll, and this while allowing P38 the initiative. Yet, P38 still couldn't get it. It was close, but no cigar http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

With more alt to work with, Fw 190 would come on top - no doubt about it.

Capt.LoneRanger
05-26-2005, 04:36 PM
Wouldn't smoke a cigar anyways http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

If you're happy to have the "kill" for the few shots you landed, that's fine with me. I play the game to improve my skill, master all planes and have fun with good dogfights, not for the points. So, I definitly had my pleasure http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Atomic_Marten
05-26-2005, 04:59 PM
I have watched the track.. nice fight.
Although P38 driver had some advantage initially, it worn off after some time.

However it still remains unclear to me why the FW190 driver did try to avoid the melee. I can guess the answer but.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Capt.LoneRanger
05-26-2005, 06:02 PM
You mean the difference between the skill to hit a target and to fly a plane!? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

j/k

PS: And of course, Hristo(s) only posted the part where I was allready gaining on his six, not the complete track and how I got there after he tried to BnZ me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Hristos
05-27-2005, 12:16 AM
In the beginning I bounced him and landed few good 20mm hits, but no damage. Might change in 4.0 with correct Mausers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Since I overshot with similar speed, I just dove away after that.

When I saw him following, I said OK- I'll bite. Let's film it too.

My engine was constantly overheating, we were directly under Spitfire alley and TnB on the deck really isn't Fw 190's forte. That's the reason why I was looking for the way out.

Also, I was looking for separation and increasing te speed of the fight. So I tried to outdistance the opponent and come back fast, as at slow speed P38 would inevitably gain the advantage.

Mostly I fly to live. I leave crazy suicide approach ot others if it pleases them.

It would be fair to the P38 pilot to say that I was lucky in few nose to nose turns. I felt I used my luck credits in that stallfight, in fact. Also, I don't consider myself a stallfighter by any stretch of imagination. I'm sure there are Fw 190 pilots out there who would do better in that situation. But, the fight illustrates well the relative strengths of the two planes when fighting on P38 terms. In a fight on Fw 190 terms, I believe the outcome would be much more decisive.

So, in short. This is an excepotion to my rules: never fight opponent on your six. Never turn more than 90 degrees. Never fight low and slow. Always have the exit route.

AerialTarget
05-27-2005, 01:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hristos:
my rules: never fight opponent on your six. Never turn more than 90 degrees. Never fight low and slow. Always have the exit route. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

When I read that, my first thought was, "Those are very good rules!" My second thought was, "It's too bad that the P-38 won't let you use them."

Even the faster version of the P-38 (which no one uses because it has no airbrake) is slower (both at altitude and on the deck) than the FW-190, the Las, the Migs, the Ki-84, all one oh nines after the G-2 except for the G-6 without boost, and possibly some of the Spitfires. If it's a dogfight server, you also have to remember that the thirty eight is slower than the P-51 and possibly the P-47.

And that's just the planes that are faster than the P-38 in IL-2 Sturmovik: Forgotten Battles. Each one mentioned, with the possible exceptions of the FW-190 and P-47, can easily outturn the P-38. And the aforementioned planes comprise about ninety percent of the planes you encounter.

Due to the fact that the P-38 must slow down in a dive to avoid smacking into the ground because of the early compression, the P-38 loses so much speed in a dive that there is only enough energy left for about a three thousand foot zoom climb. This means that you are bound to be caught in a zoom and boom by any plane faster than the Zero. In addition, hitting someone in the boom part of a zoom and boom is much more difficult than with any other plane, since the nose cannon shakes so much and you have no elevator authority to pull up.

In short, if the P-38 behaved this way in real life, I feel certain that Richard Bong and Tom McGuire would not have become America's leading aces as in real life. Indeed, they likely would have died in their first engagement.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:
The P38 doesnt have the control authority at speeds to B and Z, it doesnt have the agility to T and B it is a half way house. Its inherent qualities contradict each other. It is very fast yet has to slow down to manuver whereas a Fw or a Mustang has the invaluble advantage of staying fast and manuvering. It turns well with flaps deployed yet doesnt like to be rolled hard in to a reversal without stalling. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This, as well as the fact that its real life good stall characteristics do not matter a whit in the game, pretty much sums up why I feel so strongly that this great fighter, the mount of the United States of America's two greatest aces, is not given anywhere near its due in the game.

Jagdklinger
05-27-2005, 02:00 AM
Agree 100%

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The P38 doesnt have the control authority at speeds to B and Z, it doesnt have the agility to T and B it is a half way house. Its inherent qualities contradict each other. It is very fast yet has to slow down to manuver whereas a Fw or a Mustang has the invaluble advantage of staying fast and manuvering. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Another issue it shares with the 109...

Capt.LoneRanger
05-27-2005, 02:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Another issue it shares with the 109... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just with the little difference that the P38 has a bad roll-rate and bad stall behaviour.
It's nowhere near what it should be, but it's still fun to fly.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Even the faster version of the P-38 (which no one uses because it has no airbrake) is slower (both at altitude and on the deck) than the FW-190 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I always use the J-Version without airbrake, as many people do on WarClouds. But the L-Version with "spoilers" is the faster one.

Sgian_Dubh_001
05-27-2005, 04:57 AM
Hi all,

Am working my way through this thread as the 39 has always been my favorite in RL as well as any sim that has them.

Up till now I've been flying others (I really like the P-47 as well) because I found it easier to master the sim in single engine craft.

Now I am working to perfect my 38 skills to the exclusion of nearly anything else - well okay, I am flying the Coursair becasue they are my thrid favorite.

I am struggling with the wingover technique with the 38 to line up ground attacks. I am trying to adapt the "oval" method from the training films by Dart and have real difficulty. First off, because of the engines, I find it nearly impossible to maintain sight of the target above wing my off the beam. You have to roll so far that it makes it difficult to perform the correct approach.

The result is that I am getting tagged all of the time by AAA because I can't come to terms with how to roll in properly to take them out. I would appreciate any advice on how to approach these types of targets.

Thanks.

Capt.LoneRanger
05-27-2005, 05:12 AM
The P38 rolls like an elephant and it's even worse with bombs and rockets. So you got to forget everything you learned in your roll-in-a-sec-P39 and even F4U and think of the P38 as an agile bomber.

You have to learn to think, rather than to act. Predict where you are going and when, cause you cannot correct your movement like in any other plane. Same is for aim. Forget that 100m gun-convergence, especially for ground pounding. You can savely snipe a flak from 800m+. I set my rocket convergence to 1000m, guns to 450.

Besides that, TrackIR is more important in P38 than in most other planes, because you need a good picture of what happens around you, to predict where you can land a hit. The other key for success in P38 is teamwork. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Sgian_Dubh_001
05-27-2005, 12:00 PM
What Rocket delay do you set for 1000M shots with rockets?

AerialTarget
05-27-2005, 02:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:
I always use the J-Version without airbrake, as many people do on WarClouds. But the L-Version with "spoilers" is the faster one. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm, that's not the case in Forgotten Battles. I don't know about Pacific Fighters. In Forgotten Battles, the J model is about fifteen miles per hour faster on the deck.

Gibbage1
05-28-2005, 12:06 AM
I like the P-38. Thats why I made it. In the PAcific, they kicked much AZZ. In Europ, they were good, but did not have the speed advantage they enjoyed in the Pacific. The best twin engine fighter, be sure!

Jagdklinger
05-28-2005, 05:16 AM
Hi Gibbage!

P38 is a nice plane, if you are doing any more modelling for PF in the future, I would like to put in my request:

De Havilland Sea Hornet
(all your Mosquitos belong to us!)

I would worship you forever
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Besides, it's no more fantasy than some of the other fighters in the game

AerialTarget
05-28-2005, 06:01 AM
Gibbage, how did your idea go of giving a copy of the game to the man you know who flew the P-38 in real life?

CUJO_1970
05-28-2005, 09:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:
In Europ, they were good, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


They were? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

ImpStarDuece
05-28-2005, 09:22 AM
Yep, they were good.

The P-38 came out of Europe with a 2:1 aerial kill ratio. Not bad for an aircraft that was saddled with such bad engine reliability that often 40% or more of a group had to abandon their escort.

It was also a superb ground pounder, work very well in the 9th AF and the final 3,300 odd L models were superb fighters.

It's main downfall was that it was a little too complex for the situation it was used in. Pilots (even instructors) had insufficient hour on a type that required more traiing and familiarisation than conemporary single seaters. That and the fact that the cockpit instrument and controls layout and design was the worst of any US fighter. Something that we really dont see in the game

TAGERT.
05-28-2005, 09:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CUJO_1970:
They were? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, and getting better! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

Gibbage1
05-28-2005, 04:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CUJO_1970:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:
In Europ, they were good, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


They were? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fact. P-38 was the only fighter to produce "instant aces" in WWII. An Instant Ace is 1st and 5th kill in the same mission. Fact, all instant aces where produced in Europ. Fact, 1 Instant Ace got all 5 kills off of FW-190's in 1 mission. Enjoy!

steve_v
05-28-2005, 04:09 PM
Glacier Girl in Atlanta, Georgia, Feb. 2005

http://home.earthlink.net/~viner45/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/gg2.jpg

huggy87
05-30-2005, 11:07 AM
One thing that is irritating about the P-38 is how it has been historically overinflated. Many books and documentaries state that the P-38 had more kills than any other aircraft in the pacific. A history channel program about the P-38 recently went so far as to say it had the most kills of any american aircraft. That is absolutely incorrect. That honor goes to the hellcat with over 5000 kills. The mustang was a close second with nearly 5000 kills between both theaters. What should be stated is that the P-38 had the most kills of any USAAF plane in the pacific.

horseback
05-30-2005, 12:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CUJO_1970:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:
In Europ, they were good, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


They were? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fact. P-38 was the only fighter to produce "instant aces" in WWII. An Instant Ace is 1st and 5th kill in the same mission. Fact, all instant aces where produced in Europ. Fact, 1 Instant Ace got all 5 kills off of FW-190's in 1 mission. Enjoy! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That will come as a helluva shock to Naval Aviation types. Butch O'Hare got five Bettys on 20 February 1942 (credited with 4, the 5th failed to return to its base according to postwar records), flying an F4F-3, and ENS George Wrenn took out 5 Kates on 26 October 1942 in a F4F-4. LT Ken Hippe got five Lilys while flying an FM-2 Wildcat on 24 October 1944 for his first (and only) five kills.

A number of other Wildcat and Hellcat drivers got five in a single outing, at least one of which being credited with as few as .33 victories prior to his big day, and I seem to remember at least one P-40 driver who got his first five (Oscars) while escorting transports over the "Hump" from India or Burma.

While I'm not positive that the P-38 was the sole mount of 'ace in a day' qualifiers in the ETO, I do know that several Mustang aces, including Jim Howard, Chuck Yeager and Sid Woods got five or more air to air in single sorties in the ETO.

I would be shocked to learn that there were no first-time aces in a day flying the Pony in the ETO or the Med, and flat-out unbelieving to learn that there were none flying the FW-190.

The P-38 was undoubtedly a formidible fighter, and the men who flew it well in the context of the late-war ETO were more than a cut above, but (and it's a big but) its record is not enhanced by exxageration.

cheers

horseback

mynameisroland
05-30-2005, 12:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CUJO_1970:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:
In Europ, they were good, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


They were? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fact. P-38 was the only fighter to produce "instant aces" in WWII. An Instant Ace is 1st and 5th kill in the same mission. Fact, all instant aces where produced in Europ. Fact, 1 Instant Ace got all 5 kills off of FW-190's in 1 mission. Enjoy! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

'Bully' Lang (Luftwaffe pilot) shot down 18 aircraft in one day flying his Fw 190. Numerous LW pilots achieved ace dom in one mission and several became aces several times over in the course of a day. Pls be more specific in you claims.

Hristos
05-30-2005, 02:16 PM
Emil Lang - 18 kills in one day.
Erich Rudorffer - 13 kills in one sortie.
Guenther Scheel - 71 kill in 70 sorties.

What do these three have in common, except becoming multiple aces in a matter of hours or days in case of Scheel ?

They flew Fw 190.

BigKahuna_GS
05-30-2005, 03:24 PM
S!
__________________________________________________ ______________________
Originally posted by CUJO_1970:
They were?
__________________________________________________ ______________________

http://home.att.net/~ww2aviation/P-38-2.html

"The 8th was, at last, being flooded with Mustangs and well trained pilots. The Mustang was a delight to fly, easier to maintain cheaper to build and train pilots for, and had long legs. In those respects you can rightfully call it better, but it could not do anything better than a P-38J-25 or L. Just remember who took the war to the enemy and held on under inconceivable odds. Enough of the ****."
P38 Pilot Arthur Heiden

The P38 was the only long range fighter avaiable during 1943-44 to go all the way into Germany escorting bombers. Once there it was heavily outnumbered.

The decision to replace the P-38J in the 8th AF with the P-51, rather than the P-38L, meant that the 8th never got to exploit the full performance and combat potential of the P-38.


http://home.att.net/~ww2aviation/8thAF1.gif
8th Airforce Fighter Strength 1943-45


The Best of the Breed - the P-38J and L

"Every one of these problems was solved with the introduction of the P-38L."

"Let me repeat this again and again. It can never be emphasized too strongly. It makes up the Gospel Word. The P-38L. Now there was the airplane."

"Nothing, to these pilots, after the hard winter of 1943-44 could be more beautiful than a P-38L outrolling and tailgating a German fighter straight down, following a spin or split-S or whatever gyration a startled, panicked and doomed German might attempt to initiate. You just couldn't get away from the P-38L. Whatever the German could do, the American in the P-38L could do better." (cited from [8] with permission from Arthur W. Heiden).

The P-38J25-LO and P-38L's were terrific. Roll Rate? Ha! Nothing would roll faster. The dive recovery flaps ameliorated the "compressibility" (Mach limitation) of earlier Lightnings. An added benefit of the dive recovery flaps was their ability to pitch the nose 10-20 degrees "up" momentarily when trying to out turn the Luftwaffe's best, even when using the flap combat position on the selector. Of course the nose "pitch-up" resulted in increased aerodynamic drag, and must be used cautiously. High speed is generally preferred over low speed in combat situations. Properly flown, the Fowler flaps of the P-38 allowed very tight turning radius."

Hoping for performance like this in 4.0

______


P38 Training Problems:


Perhaps the best critique of the ETO record of the P-38 is that by former 20th FG Capt. Arthur Heiden, who flew the P-38 during the Spring of 1944, in the company of better known pilots such as Jack Ilfrey, and Ernest Fiebelkorn, later instructed on the P-38 and P-51, and after the war went on to log in excess of 25,000 hrs of flying time:

"The quality of multi-engine training during World War II bordered on the ridiculous. I am convinced that with training methods now in use we could take most of civilian private pilots who might be about to fly the Aztec or Cessna 310, and in ten hours, have a more confident pilot than the ones who flew off to war in the P-38. A P-38 pilot usually got his training in two ways. The first way, of course, was twin-engine advanced training in Curtiss AT-9s, which had the unhappy feature of having propellers you couldn't feather. After sixty hours of this, the student received ten hours of AT-6 gunnery, although he might get his gunnery training in the AT-9, since AT-6s were in short supply."

"At this point he had his chance to fly the RP-322 for another twenty hours. The 322, as you know, was the British version of the airplane, and they came with assorted equipment and things on them that nobody could predict. Upon graduation from the RP-322 he was assigned to a P-38 Replacement Training Unit (RTU) or an Operational Training Unit (OTU) for 100 hours or more of fighter training. A second way to get into the P-38 was to transition from single engine fighters. In this event, someone probably took him up in a multi-engine transport or bomber and demonstrated engine shutdown a couple of times after skimming the tech order, a blindfold check, and then Ignoring the check list (not for real fighter pilots!), he blasted off. More than one neophyte has described his first "launch" in a P-38 as being hit in the *** with a snow shovel."

"Either method of training, probably, made little difference as neither guy knew that much about multi-engine operations and procedures. True, he had been warned about the magic number of 120 miles per hour his Vme (editor:Vmca) or single-engine control speed. He had swam in glue during a couple of prop featherings while in formation with his instructor. He was, also, warned never to turn into a dead engine, never put down the gear until he had made the field, and never to go around with one caged. That was about it until shortly thereafter the old Allison time bomb blew up, and he was in business the hard way. Right on takeoff. "Some people lucked out if the runway was long enough. Some overshot or undershot and they bent the whole thing. Some tried a single-engine go-around anyway, usually with horrible results. Such happenings would make a son of a ***** out of any saint."

"Tony Levier's spectacular demonstrations were an attempt to rectify all these problems, but the damage had been done. The Air Corps, as far as I knew, never did change its pilot training."

"For perspective, it must also be remembered that two other significant events had taken place in training (in England). Theater indoctrination at Goxhill in England had received the same overhaul that had occurred in the States. The most important of all may have been the training units set up by the combat organizations themselves. Here it was possible to up-date training to the latest information and for individual commanders to put their special stamp on things and develop new tactics. "But and this is giant towering BUT this was all for the P-51 pilots."

"What would have happened if the P-38 pilots and their units could have been blessed with the same wonderful opportunity?"


For context, we present a previously unpublished letter from the Commanding Officer of the 20th Fighter Group, to the 8th Air Force Headquarters. The letter spells out the problems faced by the P-38 Groups in clear, unambiguous terms.



20th Fighter Group Headquarters
APO 637 U.S. Army
(E-2)

3 June 1944

Subject: P-38 Airplane in Combat.

To: Commanding General, VIII Fighter Command, APO 637, U.S. Army.

1. The following observations are being put in writing by the undersigned at the request of the Commanding General, VII FC. They are intended purely as constructive criticism and are intended in any way to "low rate" our present equipment.

2. After flying the P-38 for a little over one hundred hours on combat missions it is my belief that the airplane, as it stands now, is too complicated for the 'average' pilot. I want to put strong emphasis on the word 'average, taking full consideration just how little combat training our pilots have before going on as operational status.

3. As a typical case to demonstrate my point, let us assume that we have a pilot fresh out of flying school with about a total of twenty-five hours in a P-38, starting out on a combat mission. He is on a deep ramrod, penetration and target support to maximum endurance. He is cruising along with his power set at maximum economy. He is pulling 31" Hg and 2100 RPM. He is auto lean and running on external tanks. His gun heater is off to relieve the load on his generator, which frequently gives out (under sustained heavy load). His sight is off to save burning out the bulb. His combat switch may or may not be on. Flying along in this condition, he suddenly gets "bounced", what to do flashes through his mind. He must turn, he must increase power and get rid of those external tanks and get on his main. So, he reaches down and turns two stiff, difficult gas switches {valves} to main - turns on his drop tank switches, presses his release button, puts the mixture to auto rich (two separate and clumsy operations), increases his RPM, increases his manifold pressure, turns on his gun heater switch (which he must feel for and cannot possibly see), turns on his combat switch and he is ready to fight. At this point, he has probably been shot down or he has done one of several things wrong. Most common error is to push the throttles wide open before increasing RPM. This causes detonation and subsequent engine failure. Or, he forgets to switch back to auto rich, and gets excessive cylinder head temperature with subsequent engine failure.

4. In my limited experience with a P-38 group, we have lost as least four (4) pilots, who when bounced, took no immediate evasive action. The logical assumption is that they were so busy in the cockpit, trying to get organized that they were shot down before they could get going.

5. The question that arises is, what are you going to do about it? It is standard procedure for the group leader to call, five minutes before R/V and tell all the pilots to "prepare for trouble". This is the signal for everyone to get into auto rich, turn drop tank switches on, gun heaters on, combat and sight switches on and to increase RPM and manifold pressure to maximum cruise. This procedure, however, does not help the pilot who is bounced on the way in and who is trying to conserve his gasoline and equipment for the escort job ahead.

6. What is the answer to these difficulties? During the past several weeks we have been visited at this station time and time again by Lockheed representatives, Allison representatives and high ranking Army personnel connected with these two companies. They all ask about our troubles and then proceed to tell us about the marvelous mechanisms that they have devised to overcome these troubles that the Air Force has turned down as "unnecessary". Chief among these is a unit power control, incorporating an automatic manifold pressure regulator, which will control power, RPM and mixture by use of a single lever. It is obvious that there is a crying need for a device like that in combat.

7. It is easy to understand why test pilots, who have never been in combat, cannot readily appreciate what each split second means when a "bounce" occurs. Every last motion when you get bounced is just another nail in your coffin. Any device which would eliminate any of the enumerated above, are obviously very necessary to make the P-38 a really effective combat airplane.

8. It is also felt that that much could done to simplify the gas switching system in this airplane. The switches {valve selector handles} are all in awkward positions and extremely hard to turn. The toggle switches for outboard tanks are almost impossible to operate with gloves on.

9. My personal feeling about this airplane is that it is a fine piece of equipment, and if properly handled, takes a back seat for nothing that the enemy can produce. But it does need simplifying to bring it within the capabilities of the 'average' pilot. I believe that pilots like Colonel Ben Kelsey and Colonel Cass Huff are among the finest pilots in the world today. But I also believe that it is difficult for men like them to place their thinking and ability on the level of a youngster with a bare 25 hours in the airplane, going into his first combat. That is the sort of thinking that will have to be done, in my opinion, to make the P-38 a first-class all around fighting airplane.

HAROLD J. RAU
Colonel, Air Corps,
Commanding.



Capt. Heiden went on to discuss some of the problems inherent with high altitude escort missions over Europe. He points out that all the combat instructors who gained their experience in Africa or in the Pacific, had done the vast majority of their combat flying below 20,000 feet. Therefore, new pilots were trained to fly the P-38 at altitudes below that height. Very few pilots had flown the Lightning at the altitudes required by 8th Air Force mission profiles and were loath to do so. Many of the P-38 trained pilots arriving in Britain requested assignment to the 9th Air Force in order to fly at lower levels where they had both experience and confidence in the ability of the airplane to do the job. Nonetheless, the high priority given to providing escort fighters determined that nearly all the incoming pilots were destined for the 8th. Most P-38 pilots were completely unprepared for high altitude operations nor the technical problems involved.

Capt. Heiden continues:

"These new pilots made their attempts to go to altitude. This is what the curriculum called for and they gave it their best, but those early airplanes, the way they were set up, just wouldn't make it. There were disastrous incidents of ignition breakdown because of high-tension leakage. The oxygen systems were woefully inadequate. This is what they put into the airplane and the pilot in the cockpit was stuck with he had. It just wouldn't do the job. No one liked 30,000 feet anyway. There had been no training for it. There had never been any need for it. It was too cold and the windows frosted up."

"All this piled up on the 8th Air Force pilots, but there they were at 30,000 feet plus and sixty below zero. It was miserable."

"Then things really started to come apart. Now, suddenly, turbochargers were running away. They were blowing up engines on the basis of one engine blow up every seven hours. Intercoolers were separating the lead from the fuel and the result was lowered octane. Hands and feet were freezing; pilots were calling their airplanes airborne ice wagons and they were right. Frost on the windows got thicker than ever. Most disgusting of all was the leisurely way the German fighters made their get-aways straight down."

"Another problem seldom mentioned was the single generator problem. If a generator was lost or a low battery the Curtis Electric prop would lose the Dynamic Brake and go to extreme Low Pitch. This was called a RUN AWAY. It could happen on Take Off with a low battery. Since you couldn't feather it set up a lot of drag making it difficult to make it around to land. The Killer situation was to lose the Generator or lose the engine with the Generator on it while 2 or 3hrs into Germany. Procedure was to SET the Props then turn off all electrical power. Then momentarily turn it back on to reset the props as needed. Being sure everything electrical was also turned off -- No Radios. The forgotten thing was you were at altitude and the OAT was -60degrees and the little old battery was cold soaked. Hence, dead as a dog. Result, with a lot of altitude you have less than an hour with one or two props in RUNAWAY.

I have no statistics to back me up on this, but believe, that more P-38s were lost from this than any other factor including combat. This simple problem did not receive attention until April, '44."

"This leads us to another vague fact. This is the need of boost pumps to maintain fuel pressure to the engines at around 20,000' and above. No boost pumps, a pilot will need to get down to 20K or below, and if he needs more than cruise power he will have to get way down low."

"My only experience in these problems, was of course the runaway prop, and once when the boost pump circuit breakers popped while we were engaged with some 109s. So there I was holding in the circuit breakers with my right hand while flying with my left, hoping to get to a lower altitude before something burned up."



Original photo - W.M. Bodie
"P-38 units from the moment of going on initial operational status were committed to MAX EFFORT. No two ways about it. No time to shake things out, to discover your problems. You got there and zap, you were in up to your eyeballs. This meant that everything flyable went and everything that still had wings would be made flyable. No matter what. This in effect was the same as demanding, by direct order, that everyone and everything must have, immediately if not sooner, 100 percent combat capabilities. Like Casey Jones, the pressure was all the way up without any margins whatsoever."

"Despite these revolting developments, the pilots of the 8th knew that the P-38 could outturn, outclimb, outrun and outfight anybody's airplane in the air so they set about rectifying their problems."

"Every one of these problems was solved with the introduction of the P-38L."

"Let me repeat this again and again. It can never be emphasized too strongly. It makes up the Gospel Word. The P-38L. Now there was the airplane."

"Nothing, to these pilots, after the hard winter of 1943-44 could be more beautiful than a P-38L outrolling and tailgating a German fighter straight down, following a spin or split-S or whatever gyration a startled, panicked and doomed German might attempt to initiate. You just couldn't get away from the P-38L. Whatever the German could do, the American in the P-38L could do better." (cited from [8] with permission from Arthur W. Heiden).

Captain Stan Richardson comments on the slow initial roll rate of the early P-38H and J models deployed with the 8th Air Force.

"The P-38 was a large fighter with much mass. 52' wingspan and long, wide-chord ailerons contributed to slow response along the longitudinal axis of the early airplanes. The higher the indicated airspeed, the slower the response. At very high IAS it took plenty of muscle to roll the airplane. I don't believe that a joystick would have improved matters over the wheel. The Luftwaffe soon recognized the slow roll rate of the "H" and early "J" model Lightnings and used it to their advantage. It also learned of the dive restrictions caused by "compressibility" and used that advantage also.

Sometime in the development of the P-38, the design engineers must have realized that P-38's didn't have great roll capability. When Tony Levier, Lockheed test pilot, visited the 55th FG, he heard a common thread of complaints from the pilots. Cold cockpit, poor "flick" roll rate, and inability to dive after the Bf-109's and FW-190's from high altitude.

The complaints were relayed to the Lockheed factory, and design changes were incorporated in the P-38L. Prior to the arrival of the "L's" at Wormingford, many modification kits were shipped to Langford Lodge, North Ireland, for field modifications of the "J" model Lightning then arriving in the theater. Unfortunately, an early shipment aboard a DC-4 was lost at sea when the Brits shot the cargo plane from the sky. It took several months to replace the lost modification kits. Early P-38J-5-LO's were modified at Langford Lodge by the addition of the replacement kits. The kits added dive recovery flaps under the wings, outboard of the engines, and a 3000psi hydraulically boosted aileron system. The P-38L's were now coming down the production line with the aileron boost and "speed boards" installed.

P-38's from the J-25's onward were what we should have had when we went operational in October 1943. The compressibility problem of the P-38 was also experienced by P-47 Thunderbolts, and was not a mystery to aeronautical design engineers.

The P-38J25-LO and P-38L's were terrific. Roll Rate? Ha! Nothing would roll faster. The dive recovery flaps ameliorated the "compressibility" (Mach limitation) of earlier Lightnings. An added benefit of the dive recovery flaps was their ability to pitch the nose 10-20 degrees "up" momentarily when trying to out turn the Luftwaffe's best, even when using the flap combat position on the selector. Of course the nose "pitch-up" resulted in increased aerodynamic drag, and must be used cautiously. High speed is generally preferred over low speed in combat situations. Properly flown, the Fowler flaps of the P-38 allowed very tight turning radius."

Arthur Heiden observed first-hand how tight a well flown P-38 could turn.

"I remember an amusing incident, Apr '44. We had run into a real mess and the Luftwafe was bouncing everybody. My flight had just been bounced, did the break, and the Luftwaffe kept on going. While I was on guard, I saw this other flight get bounced. While the rest of that flight did a halfhearted break, old tail-end Charlie's P-38 emitted a cloud of exhaust smoke (thought he had been hit), saw his nose come up and wrap up his turn. Before I could think, old #4 was in the lead of that flight. Impressed the hell out of me. Turned out to have been Fiebelkorn -- he was off to a good start."

The decision to replace the P-38J in the 8th AF with the P-51, rather than the P-38L, meant that the 8th never got to exploit the full performance and combat potential of the P-38.

Capt. Heiden makes some further interesting observations.

"The P-51 was a new airplane and we were eager to fly it and were happy with it. It was so easy and comfortable to fly. The P-38 had kept us on our toes and constantly busy--far more critical to fly. You never could relax with it. We were disappointed with the 51's rate of climb and concerned with the reverse stick, especially if fuel was in the fuselage tank, the rash of rough engines from fouled plugs, and cracked heads which dumped the coolant. With the 38 you could be at altitude before landfall over the continent, but with the 51 you still had a lot of climbing yet to do. The 38 was an interceptor and if both engines (were healthy), you could outclimb any other airplane, and that's what wins dog fights. When you are in a dog fight below tree tops, it is way more comfortable in a 38 with its power and stall characteristics and, for that matter at any altitude."

To summarise the performance of the P-38 in the 8th AF, Capt Heiden notes:

"Aug 43, 8thAF has retrieved some Bomber Gps and has several original Spitfire/P-47 FGs. Two P-38 FGs, 1-P-51 FG that will not be operational till late Oct and have to workout tactics and maintenance problems, which all are severe. Highly inadequate supply of A/C."

"Nov. 43, P-38Hs and P-51Bs beginning ops, find themselves in a climate environment none had experienced before and a superior opponent with 10 times the numbers. Forced to take the bombers to, over and withdraw them. Lucky to get half of what they had to the target after aborts/early returns. Sometimes as few as four fighters made it to target under attack continuously going and coming. Five minutes of METO power was planned into the profile. Meaning that if you fought over five minutes you wouldn't make it home. Remember, you were being bounced continuously."

"Feb 11, 44, 357thFG goes on Ops (P-51). 4thFG converts to P-51s. 2-weeks later and other groups are converting by end of Feb. Now fighter groups don't have to go the whole to, over, and from target. The escort is now Penetration, Target, and Withdrawal, each leg is assigned to only one FG. and many operational problems are being resolved. Internal fuel on P-38s has been greatly increased with Wing and Leading edge tanks. P-47s are starting to get external fuel tanks."

"The last half of 43 brought horrendous losses, had forced German manufacturing underground and had forced Germany to go to synthetic oil. This had increased the cost of war exponentially to the Germans."

"Feb 44 we went back to Schwienfurt with acceptable loses. March 3rd the 20th & 55thFGs went to Berlin--Bombers were recalled. March, April, and May brought vicious battles, often with heavy loses. However, Germany were throwing their valuable flight instructors and 100hr students in to the battle. The Luftwaffe was at last starting to die."

_____________

Capt.LoneRanger
05-30-2005, 03:48 PM
@ AerialTarget

L should be (slightly) faster. Didn't test it in FB, so I cannot comment on that. That depends on version, though, as there was a heavy L-version with improved pilot protection. Considering the frequent pilot kills I had, I doubt it's that version of the P38...

Gibbage1
05-31-2005, 03:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:

'Bully' Lang (Luftwaffe pilot) shot down 18 aircraft in one day flying his Fw 190. Numerous LW pilots achieved ace dom in one mission and several became aces several times over in the course of a day. Pls be more specific in you claims. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In 1 day? How many sorties did they fly that one day? Im talking 1 flight. 1st and 5th kill in the same flight.

Yes, I did forget about Butch Ohair shooting down 5 Betty's. But I think (I need to check my sources) that Butch had other kills before the Betty's. So they were not his 1st and 5th kill.

Hristos
05-31-2005, 03:37 PM
Any way you like it.

Emil Lang - 18 kills in one day.
Erich Rudorffer - 13 kills in one sortie.
Guenther Scheel - 71 kill in 70 sorties.

All flew Fw 190.

AerialTarget
05-31-2005, 04:30 PM
It's probably undermodelled, too. That's not the point.

I will never forget the Neanderthal I flew against online who stubbornly insisted that the P-38 in the game is "overmodelled," "a noob plane," and "the easiest plane to fly and get kills in." I say, some people get some perverse pleasure out of deliberately making statements that they absolutely know have not a shred of truth in them!

fordfan25
05-31-2005, 04:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AerialTarget:
It's probably undermodelled, too. That's not the point.

I will never forget the Neanderthal I flew against online who stubbernly insisted that the P-38 in the game is "overmodelled," "a noob plane," and "the easiest plane to fly and get kills in." I say, some people get some perverse pleasure out of deliberately making statements that they absolutely know have not a shred of truth in them! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes thay do get pleasure from such statements. just look in the eyes of a ki-84 driver when he says "its not over moddled http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif" lol

Gibbage1
05-31-2005, 04:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hristos:
Any way you like it.

Emil Lang - 18 kills in one day.
Erich Rudorffer - 13 kills in one sortie.
Guenther Scheel - 71 kill in 70 sorties.

All flew Fw 190. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

13 kills of what in one sortie? Also, have any proof of this? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Also, was this the 1st and 13th kill in 1 mission? Or did he already have kills before this mission?

faustnik
05-31-2005, 04:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TAGERT.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CUJO_1970:
They were? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, and getting better! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree, it seems there is entire crew trying to make the P-38 into something it wasn't.

It was a great fighter in the Pacific, a poor one in the ETO. No big deal though, the USAAF had plenty of P-47s and P-51s to replace them. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

AerialTarget
05-31-2005, 05:41 PM
I'll tell you what. We crew (including several real life P-38 pilots) will continue attempting to make the P-38 into what it was, and you can keep on smoking whatever it is that you smoke. Sound good?

faustnik
05-31-2005, 05:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AerialTarget:
I'll tell you what. We crew (including several real life P-38 pilots) will continue attempting to make the P-38 into what it was, and you can keep on smoking whatever it is that you smoke. Sound good? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Please post the P-38s record in the ETO to support your position. How about a list of aces with all kills acheived in the ETO only while flying the P-38. Along with it, please list the same records for the P-47 and P-51. That should prove your point.

Gibbage1
05-31-2005, 06:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AerialTarget:
I'll tell you what. We crew (including several real life P-38 pilots) will continue attempting to make the P-38 into what it was, and you can keep on smoking whatever it is that you smoke. Sound good? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Please post the P-38s record in the ETO to support your position. How about a list of aces with all kills acheived in the ETO only while flying the P-38. Along with it, please list the same records for the P-47 and P-51. That should prove your point. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, the P-47 and P-51 were much better in the ETO then the P-38. I never said it was the other way around, and I dont remember anyone saying it. But for a twin engine fighter, it did not do a BAD JOB AT ALL. I still think it was a merical that it did not get totally slaughterd in the ETO considering what it faced! Fighting aircraft 1/3 the weight and it still managed to give more then it got. And it was not all numerical superiority. The Allies did not have numerical superiority over Germany for some time. Also, fighting over home turf gives you better odds in many ways. So the P-38 had to fight Germany's best when it was out numbered.

After all that put into consideration, it was a remarkable bird. Not the best fighter, but the only twin engine fighter of the war that truly could fight with singles. You must at least give it credit for that? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I doubt it.

faustnik
05-31-2005, 09:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:

After all that put into consideration, it was a remarkable bird. Not the best fighter, but the only twin engine fighter of the war that truly could fight with singles. You must at least give it credit for that? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I doubt it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're wrong again http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif, I certainly give the P-38 credit as the best twin engined fighter of the war, I can't think of anything else that comes close. Read back though the thread and you will find claims that the P-38 was dominant in the ETO. My point is simply that it wasn't as well suited to the ETO as the P-47 and P-51 and that some of the reasons were performance related, not just fiscal or political.

If people still want to complain about the "undermodeled P-38", I would suggest that they ask Gibbage or Korolov to school them. I'd give similar (well, not having Gibbage help them http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) advice to anyone who claims that the Fw190 is "undermodeled".

Gibbage1
05-31-2005, 09:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
You're wrong again http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif, I certainly give the P-38 credit as the best twin engined fighter of the war, I can't think of anything else that comes close. Read back though the thread and you will find claims that the P-38 was dominant in the ETO. My point is simply that it wasn't as well suited to the ETO as the P-47 and P-51 and that some of the reasons were performance related, not just fiscal or political.

If people still want to complain about the "undermodeled P-38", I would suggest that they ask Gibbage or Korolov to school them. I'd give similar (well, not having Gibbage help them http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) advice to anyone who claims that the Fw190 is "undermodeled". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You and I are both on the very same page. All with the exception of the P-38 being undermodeled http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif That part is true. But its not as undermodeled as people think.

#1. Compressability is overmodeled. Big time. P-38 in IL2 goes into elivator lock at 380MPH. The P-38's top LEVEL speed is 414MPH. Lol. Do the math http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

#2. Stalls. Big time undermodeled. It should not stall nearly as violently as it does. Stall speed seams on the mark at 70MPH "dirty"

#3. Top speed and climb is a little undermodeled.

#4. Gunshake is BADLY undermodeled. It feels like a buching branco when I lay on the guns. More then any other aircraft but the Mk-108 toating Lufty birds.

#5. Torque. Need I say more? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Its amazing how so many aircraft have no torque like the bombers, and jets, but the one aircraft that should have no torque at all has plenty of it.

But this is all stuff that "should" be fixed in 4.0. Torque and stalls I confirmed are fixed. I doubt Oleg will fix the gunshale at all. Compressability still needs fixing. It should be around 480MPH, not 420-430.

But all that aside, I think it fly's like a P-38 should. She feels a bit big and heavy simply because she WAS big and heavy. 3x the weight of a 109 nd more then double that of the FW-190. But she can still dance. =)

Hristos
05-31-2005, 11:01 PM
13 kills of Yak 7 and Yak 9. And these were not ground kills, as favored by US pilots for adding victories for shooting planes on the ground. Instead, all were air to air kills.

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/rudorffer.html

Gibbage, numbers are there. You can argue all you want, but face it - the highest number of kills overall, the highest number of kills in one day, the highest number of kills in one sortie, the highest strike rate - all these records are held by Luftwaffe pilots.

At their peak, Luftwaffe pilots outscored any other pilots in the world. In just about every category.

Allied aces' record is downright pathetic when compared to Luftwaffe Aces' record. How many kills did top US ace have ? 40 something ? Well, he'd be hard pressed to earn a Knight Cross if he flew for Luftwaffe - too few kills, you know http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

How does Marseille's 17 kills in one day rate ? With a single MG151/20 and 2 MG17.

Hristos
05-31-2005, 11:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
You're wrong again http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif, I certainly give the P-38 credit as the best twin engined fighter of the war, I can't think of anything else that comes close. Read back though the thread and you will find claims that the P-38 was dominant in the ETO. My point is simply that it wasn't as well suited to the ETO as the P-47 and P-51 and that some of the reasons were performance related, not just fiscal or political.

If people still want to complain about the "undermodeled P-38", I would suggest that they ask Gibbage or Korolov to school them. I'd give similar (well, not having Gibbage help them http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) advice to anyone who claims that the Fw190 is "undermodeled". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You and I are both on the very same page. All with the exception of the P-38 being undermodeled http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif That part is true. But its not as undermodeled as people think.

#1. Compressability is overmodeled. Big time. P-38 in IL2 goes into elivator lock at 380MPH. The P-38's top LEVEL speed is 414MPH. Lol. Do the math http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

#2. Stalls. Big time undermodeled. It should not stall nearly as violently as it does. Stall speed seams on the mark at 70MPH "dirty"

#3. Top speed and climb is a little undermodeled.

#4. Gunshake is BADLY undermodeled. It feels like a buching branco when I lay on the guns. More then any other aircraft but the Mk-108 toating Lufty birds.

#5. Torque. Need I say more? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Its amazing how so many aircraft have no torque like the bombers, and jets, but the one aircraft that should have no torque at all has plenty of it.

But this is all stuff that "should" be fixed in 4.0. Torque and stalls I confirmed are fixed. I doubt Oleg will fix the gunshale at all. Compressability still needs fixing. It should be around 480MPH, not 420-430.

But all that aside, I think it fly's like a P-38 should. She feels a bit big and heavy simply because she WAS big and heavy. 3x the weight of a 109 nd more then double that of the FW-190. But she can still dance. =) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Got any proof ?

AerialTarget
05-31-2005, 11:38 PM
Listen, kid. People like Gibbage and myself have read thousands of pages, watched hours of footage, e-mailed Lockheed Martin, read official pilot handbooks, talked to real P-38 pilots, and done countless of other things that would make your little head swim. Everyone whose opinion matters already knows the data. The only problem is getting Oleg to part with his pride and admit that the P-51 wasn't the only American airplane that wasn't a lumbering aerial barge.

We have loads of proof. It's out there for you to obtain if you want it, and it's not hard to find, either. But you don't want to know. You'd rather troll by insinuating here that the P-38 Lightning was as miserable of a plane in real life as it is in the game. Why, when you add up the in-game deficiencies Gibbage mentioned, there's really no reason that the United States Army Air Force would have even glanced at the thing.

Gibbage1
05-31-2005, 11:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hristos:
13 kills of Yak 7 and Yak 9. And these were not ground kills, as favored by US pilots for adding victories for shooting planes on the ground. Instead, all were air to air kills.

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/rudorffer.html

Gibbage, numbers are there. You can argue all you want, but face it - the highest number of kills overall, the highest number of kills in one day, the highest number of kills in one sortie, the highest strike rate - all these records are held by Luftwaffe pilots.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nice try. I said 1st and 5th kill. Instant ace. Your 13 kills in a row was #107-#120. His first sortie bagged him 1 kill.

Thats my point. Not the fact that the P-38 pilots got 5 kills in 1 mission, but got not only there 1st kill, but there 5th kill all in the same mission. What does that mean? The P-38 pilots were "noobs". Had no air 2 air combat experance. On the other hand, your 13 kill guy was WELL OVER 3 YEARS! He was an experteen in a target ritch enviornment.

Now please find me a Luftwaffe pilot who got his 1st kill and 5th kill. Not his 107th kill and 120th.

Gibbage1
05-31-2005, 11:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hristos:Got any proof ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ya. Plenty. Have any proof that it should SHOULD be as above? Bring it.

Hristos
06-01-2005, 12:02 AM
If you got plenty of proof, why are you hiding it ?

I think you need to cool down instead.

AerialTarget
06-01-2005, 12:09 AM
We're not hiding anything. It's just that not only is it obviously a pain in the butt to recompile all of the text from the various sources we have, but every time we do so for some ne'er-do-well like yourself, the lout in question then blows it off with a phrase like "whatever" or "well you can't believe everything you read on the internet." I, for one, am no longer eager to cast my proverbial pearls before swine.

Gibbage1
06-01-2005, 12:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hristos:
If you got plenty of proof, why are you hiding it ?

I think you need to cool down instead. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Look. There have been 20+ other threads were we presented our proof. Go look them up. Im tired of re-posting data every time a Luftwhiner gets uppity.

faustnik
06-01-2005, 12:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AerialTarget:
Listen, kid. People like Gibbage and myself have read thousands of pages, watched hours of footage, e-mailed Lockheed Martin, read official pilot handbooks, talked to real P-38 pilots, and done countless of other things that would make your little head swim. Everyone whose opinion matters already knows the data. The only problem is getting Oleg to part with his pride and admit that the P-51 wasn't the only American airplane that wasn't a lumbering aerial barge.

We have loads of proof. It's out there for you to obtain if you want it, and it's not hard to find, either. But you don't want to know. You'd rather troll by insinuating here that the P-38 Lightning was as miserable of a plane in real life as it is in the game. Why, when you add up the in-game deficiencies Gibbage mentioned, there's really no reason that the United States Army Air Force would have even glanced at the thing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif, are you really reading Gibbage's post? Read this part again:

But all that aside, I think it fly's like a P-38 should. She feels a bit big and heavy simply because she WAS big and heavy. 3x the weight of a 109 nd more then double that of the FW-190. But she can still dance. =)

The issues, big and small, that Gibbage brought up I agree with 100%. None of them renders the P-38 in PF unusable. Don't mistake your own lack of ability for any difficiency in the a/c. Many online pilots, other than you, have no trouble with the PF P-38. Like I said, beg Gibbage for lessons.

Stanger_361st
06-01-2005, 12:42 AM
According to Complete book of fighters P-38J top speed
5000ft-360 mph
25000ft-414 mph
According to (Complete book of WW2Combat Aircraft)
P-38-L top speed
25065 ft -415 mph

Gibbage1
06-01-2005, 12:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
Wow http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif, are you really reading Gibbage's post? Read this part again:

The issues, big and small, that Gibbage brought up I agree with 100%. None of them renders the P-38 in PF unusable. Don't mistake your own lack of ability for any difficiency in the a/c. Many online pilots, other than you, have no trouble with the PF P-38. Like I said, beg Gibbage for lessons. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

These issues, if fixed, would make the P-38 even more of a fighter.

I just flew on Warclouds. Took up a P-38L. I found the action, got in, and bagged 2 109's and a FW-190. The only time I was swearing the bugs was diving on the first 109 and was getting itno compression doing 380MPH. With a little trim, slight airbrake usage, and a lot of luck, I put 2 20MM's into the back of a 109 and zipped by him doing 420MPH. If the dive speed bug was fixed I would not of needed to do all that crud, but the outcome would of been the same. 1 bounced Jerry. I also tagged his friend in the same way about 10 seconds later. They were both fallowing a P-38. Man, once a Luftie gets on the tail on a P-38, they must install blinders or somethin. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif The FW-190 required a big of dancing.

faustnik
06-01-2005, 12:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:

I just flew on Warclouds. Took up a P-38L. I found the action, got in, and bagged 2 109's and a FW-190. The only time I was swearing the bugs was diving on the first 109 and was getting itno compression doing 380MPH. With a little trim, slight airbrake usage, and a lot of luck, I put 2 20MM's into the back of a 109 and zipped by him doing 420MPH. If the dive speed bug was fixed I would not of needed to do all that crud, but the outcome would of been the same. 1 bounced Jerry. I also tagged his friend in the same way about 10 seconds later. They were both fallowing a P-38. Man, once a Luftie gets on the tail on a P-38, they must install blinders or somethin. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif The FW-190 required a big of dancing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nice work Gibbage! Pretty good for a "miserable plane the USAAF wouldn't even consider" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

HayateAce
06-01-2005, 12:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LimpWristos:
Some more hooha </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Little man, one day you will have to choke down the big pill that your beloved lufty lost to Spits, P47s and P51s.

Spout all day long how your heroes shot down IL2s, antiques and transports if that makes you feel a little better. Some therapy may help too.

http://users.martlev.com/~valhallen/mainsite/digiart/images/thumbs/pill-reb-blue3.jpg.thumb.jpg

Gibbage1
06-01-2005, 01:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
Nice work Gibbage! Pretty good for a "miserable plane the USAAF wouldn't even consider" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ya. Ya just need to keep 1 thing in mind when flying the P-38. YA DONT DANCE WITH THE 109's!

AerialTarget
06-01-2005, 01:05 AM
Faustnik, those issues which Gibbage mentioned do completely remove the point of the P-38. What we have in the game is, as pointed out here before (by Gibbage?), not too far from the infamous "castrated" version sent to the British, which they sent right back.

Surely no one here will argue that the P-38 can outturn any fighter other than the FW-190. Now here's where it gets interesting. The following planes outrun the P-38 L on the deck and at most, if not all, altitudes: Ki-84, La-5, La-7, MiG-3 U, Yak-9 U, Me-109 G-6 with AS, Me-109 G-10, Me-109 G-14, Me-109 K-4, FW-190 (except the early models), and P-51.

That means that all of the listed aircraft except for the FW-190 can both outturn and outrun the P-38. And they comprise the majority of the aircraft flown online.

This is the third time I have made this challenge; I challenge those who feel that the P-38 is a capable fighter in the game to fly against me in it while I fly a Me-109 (which is not my ride of choice, as I fly the P-38 nearly exclusively). I am a mediocre pilot, and have only been playing this game for two weeks after over a year long absense. Yet, I feel confident that I will still shoot you down, since the Me-109 can both outturn and outrun you. I will even give you an altitude advantage, since I feel that you don't stand a chance in a same-altitude engagement.

I'll see you in the House of Odin. You bring the pie, I'll supply the crow.

faustnik
06-01-2005, 01:48 AM
I don't undersand your logic? You think that if plane A can be bested by plane B in a 1 on 1 dogfight, then plane A is useless??? Jeez, I guess shooting down all those Spit IXs in my Fw190A6 was just blind luck? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

I would expect a Bf109G to have an advantage over a P-38 in a one-on-one dogfight, wouldn't you? That doesn't mean the P-38 is useless, that is, unless the only thing you use it for is silly one-on-one dogfights. But, hey, Gibbage just flamed 2 Messers and a Focke-Wulf online, with a UK reject P-38, what's his problem? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Gibbage1
06-01-2005, 01:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AerialTarget:

Ki-84, La-5, La-7, MiG-3 U, Yak-9 U, Me-109 G-6 with AS, Me-109 G-10, Me-109 G-14, Me-109 K-4, FW-190 (except the early models), and P-51.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hummm. Interesting list. Lets see. K-4 I can out turn at speeds. All FW-190 A models I can out turn but the D's. Thems hard. I can even out turn the Ta-152. Ki-84 I have danced with many times, and came out the victor. I dont know if its lack of pilot skill, but I will dance with Ki-84's any day. Not saying I out-turn them, just I can out fly them. I can also hold my own VS single 109's well. So if we can find a date and time, I would be glad to accept your challenge. What 109 are you taking? My flying changes greatly depending on that choice. Thats what a good pilot does. Examins the target before enguaging, and addapts the flying technique for it.

Not tonight though. Its like 1 fricken AM, im sick as a dog, and I gotta get up for work in like 9 hours. Im going to bed.
[/QUOTE]

AerialTarget
06-01-2005, 02:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
I don't undersand your logic? You think that if plane A can be bested by plane B in a 1 on 1 dogfight, then plane A is useless??? Jeez, I guess shooting down all those Spit IXs in my Fw190A6 was just blind luck? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is skill, of course, although not as great as that required in a one on one because the enemy's attention is diverted. But the fact is that if any of those airplanes had seen you, which is not something that you can control and is not unlikely, there would have been nothing you could have done to stay alive. You can't run away, and you can't turn fight. Any plane in which you cannot survive if the enemy spots you, regardless of altitude advantage, is a miserable plane.

Gibbage! I will be very honored to at last fly against you, no matter the circumstances! I cannot tell you how happy I am that it is you who have shown the courage to rise to this challenge on such uneven ground. I hope you still have a Forgotten Battles installation, because my Pacific Fighters has not yet arrived. Be warned that I use Ubi.com, one of the terms of the challenge that has caused the challenged to default in the past. Remember that this is not a dispute of pilot skill. I harbor no belief that mine are superior to yours. Indeed, I would like it very much if you and other P-38 fliers would train me in better usage of the P-38 that we have in the game. I only wish to demonstrate (actually to the others here, as you are perfectly aware of the in-game P-38's shortcomings) that the P-38 is a miserable plane in the game, incapable of surviving once spotted by most of the airplanes flown online. Do you have Ventrilo?

Although the One Oh Nine that I usually fly is the G-2, I am not going to be taking it because I do not fear it in my P-38. Rather, I have chosen the One Oh Nine that I fear the most - the Me-109 G-6 with boost. Since the P-38 cannot outturn it and cannot run away, it will take a very stupid mistake on my part for you to win.

I say this last, for this is the other term which has caused defaulting in the past, and with far greater reason. It is only fair to tell you now that I only fly with externals on. I have several reasons for doing so, one which I will not argue and one which cannot be argued with. The first is a matter of fairness - I know from experience that it is many times easier to see out of aircraft and to spot and track other aircraft. I do not feel like suffering an unrealistic handicap and being forced to become skilled in an area which would not benefit me in real flying, combat, or any other real life activity other than gaming. I would rather suffer an advantage which, I feel, is not as great as the disadvantage that the alternative offers.

The other reason is that I have permanent thumb injuries which make using my hat (which is very high on my joystick, a CH Combat Stick) mildly painful. It is therefore difficult for me to manipulate the hat at all and nearly impossible to pull it down.

Hristos
06-01-2005, 02:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hristos:
If you got plenty of proof, why are you hiding it ?

I think you need to cool down instead. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Look. There have been 20+ other threads were we presented our proof. Go look them up. Im tired of re-posting data every time a Luftwhiner gets uppity. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

20 pages of proof is rather optimistic. The way things go around here, I'd say it was 1/4 of page with some clouded info and the rest just useless lamentation.

Here's an idea. Make a web page with your "proof" and use the URl in your sig.

I guess the term "Luftwhiner" is addressed at me. So, could you find where I whined and about what ? Search function is working.

Hristos
06-01-2005, 02:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HayateAce:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LimpWristos:
Some more hooha </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Little man, one day you will have to choke down the big pill that your beloved lufty lost to Spits, P47s and P51s.

Spout all day long how your heroes shot down IL2s, antiques and transports if that makes you feel a little better. Some therapy may help too.

http://users.martlev.com/~valhallen/mainsite/digiart/images/thumbs/pill-reb-blue3.jpg.thumb.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hooha !!!!

Your style is phenomenal, you remind me of Creamo few years back.

I apreciate the pill offer, but I think you need them more http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

One thing I always wondered. What exactly your nickname represents ? Do you fly Hayate ?

BSS_CUDA
06-01-2005, 06:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AerialTarget:

Ki-84, La-5, La-7, MiG-3 U, Yak-9 U, Me-109 G-6 with AS, Me-109 G-10, Me-109 G-14, Me-109 K-4, FW-190 (except the early models), and P-51.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hummm. Interesting list. Lets see. K-4 I can out turn at speeds. All FW-190 A models I can out turn but the D's. Thems hard. I can even out turn the Ta-152. Ki-84 I have danced with many times, and came out the victor. I dont know if its lack of pilot skill, but I will dance with Ki-84's any day. Not saying I out-turn them, just I can out fly them. I can also hold my own VS single 109's well. So if we can find a date and time, I would be glad to accept your challenge. What 109 are you taking? My flying changes greatly depending on that choice. Thats what a good pilot does. Examins the target before enguaging, and addapts the flying technique for it.

Not tonight though. Its like 1 fricken AM, im sick as a dog, and I gotta get up for work in like 9 hours. Im going to bed.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed Gib to a tee, I have found exactly what you have said when flying against those AC. Target I'll take your challenge, depending on which 109 you fly, some are beatable some are not, a 38 will turn inside a K, and will out run the G2 but not out turn it, all others are a problem. I have not found a FW yet that I cannot out turn, also the TA has that nasty 38 flatspin and can be out flown with patience, as Gib said I've danced with the KI's also, won some , lost some,mixed it up none the less. last Saturday Leadspitter and I winged up ( with no comms ) he was lead and I covered. after 3 sorte's we had a combined 1000 points with only 2 deaths. 1 a PK and the other flew into the side of a mountain after coming out of a cloud,

I hear the lufty's whinning about the spit all the time, how is that when you fly your own version of it? it is a known fact that over 400mph that the 109 suffered the same compression that the 38 did, so where is it in game? doesnt exsist does it, its a known fact that the mk 108's ROF was half of what it is in game, why?, we've been flying shall we say a newer version of this game and doing testing, yes they improved the 38 with the WEP and stall, ( MMMMMMM the cloverleaf http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif )but in doing so they turned the G6-AS into a 84C+ its as fast as the 38 on deck 360 MPH has NO compression even at 800+ KPH in a straight down verticle dive, and Bleeds 0 energy and your guns are even more powerful then before. I guess you got your X-wing fighters that you spent 17 pages whinning about. we can only hope that this gets corrected before the final release.

38 pilots are a different breed, we could all EASILY hop into a spit and down your 109's and 190's but we chose to fly it for 2 reasons.

1. because its a true challenge to be good at, it is NOT a noob plane, like some others that are flown in the game. you have to be dedicated ( or commited http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif ) to fly this plane as it's currently modeled.
2. our passion for this aircraft, http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif you'll find most of the ppl that fly it have read countless books about her and studied a great deal about this plane, how many other pilots can say the same about their main rides.

BSS_CUDA
06-01-2005, 08:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AerialTarget:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
I don't undersand your logic? You think that if plane A can be bested by plane B in a 1 on 1 dogfight, then plane A is useless??? Jeez, I guess shooting down all those Spit IXs in my Fw190A6 was just blind luck? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is skill, of course, although not as great as that required in a one on one because the enemy's attention is diverted. But the fact is that if any of those airplanes had seen you, which is not something that you can control and is not unlikely, there would have been nothing you could have done to stay alive. You can't run away, and you can't turn fight. Any plane in which you cannot survive if the enemy spots you, regardless of altitude advantage, is a miserable plane.

Gibbage! I will be very honored to at last fly against you, no matter the circumstances! I cannot tell you how happy I am that it is you who have shown the courage to rise to this challenge on such uneven ground. I hope you still have a Forgotten Battles installation, because my Pacific Fighters has not yet arrived. Be warned that I use Ubi.com, one of the terms of the challenge that has caused the challenged to default in the past. Remember that this is not a dispute of pilot skill. I harbor no belief that mine are superior to yours. Indeed, I would like it very much if you and other P-38 fliers would train me in better usage of the P-38 that we have in the game. I only wish to demonstrate (actually to the others here, as you are perfectly aware of the in-game P-38's shortcomings) that the P-38 is a miserable plane in the game, incapable of surviving once spotted by most of the airplanes flown online. Do you have Ventrilo?

Although the One Oh Nine that I usually fly is the G-2, I am not going to be taking it because I do not fear it in my P-38. Rather, I have chosen the One Oh Nine that I fear the most - the Me-109 G-6 with boost. Since the P-38 cannot outturn it and cannot run away, it will take a very stupid mistake on my part for you to win.

I say this last, for this is the other term which has caused defaulting in the past, and with far greater reason. It is only fair to tell you now that I only fly with externals on. I have several reasons for doing so, one which I will not argue and one which cannot be argued with. The first is a matter of fairness - I know from experience that it is many times easier to see out of aircraft and to spot and track other aircraft. I do not feel like suffering an unrealistic handicap and being forced to become skilled in an area which would not benefit me in real flying, combat, or any other real life activity other than gaming. I would rather suffer an advantage which, I feel, is not as great as the disadvantage that the alternative offers.

The other reason is that I have permanent thumb injuries which make using my hat (which is very high on my joystick, a CH Combat Stick) mildly painful. It is therefore difficult for me to manipulate the hat at all and nearly impossible to pull it down. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll fly against you as well AT, but I have PF and dont wish to do a whole reinstall just to prove a point http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif the external views I'm not thrilled about but I'll conceed that to you, also after flying against the G6, we can go with the G2 and the K, both of which the 38 has an advantage over in different areas, with the G6, 10,+ 14 the 38 has no advantages and will have a tough time as I have stated in previous posts.

horseback
06-01-2005, 09:45 AM
Note to AerialTarget:

Get the Pro Throttle, if you haven't already, and move the POV hat assignment to the Throttle POV hat, and reassign your stick's POV hat for elevator & rudder trim. Doing so made a HUGE difference for me. As an added bonus, assign one button to Look Up that you can press at the same time you move your hat, and that will raise your line of sight 45 degrees in the chosen direction.

No sore thumbs, 100% visual coverage from the cockpit using the POV hat and one additional button.

cheers

horseback

PS - Gib, O'Hare got his Bettys for his first five kills; although he participated in a couple of combat missions prior to the MOH winning flight of February 20 1942, he'd not made contact with enemy a/c up to that time. Hristos can be ignored-he's a gadfly, not a student of aerial warfare, or he'd have a list of Jagdewaffe 'instant experten.'

faustnik
06-01-2005, 09:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I only wish to demonstrate (actually to the others here, as you are perfectly aware of the in-game P-38's shortcomings) that the P-38 is a miserable plane in the game, incapable of surviving once spotted by most of the airplanes flown online. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cuda just showed his stats from Warclouds indicating that he can not only survive, but, have a favorable kill/death ratio in the P-38??? Are you reading these posts AerialTarget?

Yes, one-on-one, It's tough to beat a Spit IX with a Fw190A6 but, certainly it can be done. Fact is I seldom, if ever, fight them one on one, I have a experienced group that flies with me. One on one our 190s may have a rough time but, as a pack we do very well. I would imagine a group of PF P-38 pilots could manage the same.

****************************

Cuda,

In answer to your post:

2. our passion for this aircraft, you'll find most of the ppl that fly it have read countless books about her and studied a great deal about this plane, how many other pilots can say the same about their main rides.

A lot of us can say that. A lot of us can say we also spend a lot of time reading about everybody elses rides too. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

faustnik
06-01-2005, 09:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by horseback:
Hristos can be ignored-he's a gadfly, not a student of aerial warfare, or he'd have a list of Jagdewaffe 'instant experten.' </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What's the point Horseback? How can you compare the situation that the LW faced in Russia to the situation that the P-38 pilots faced in the ETO? Apples and organges, proves nothing.

CUJO_1970
06-01-2005, 12:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:

Jeez, I guess shooting down all those Spit IXs in my Fw190A6 was just blind luck? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yes, in your case I can confirm that it was just blind luck.



http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

horseback
06-01-2005, 12:07 PM
Point is that Hristos persistantly 'misunderstands' challenges concerning the historical record. Hence he quotes Bully Lang's 18 in a day on multiple sorties (wasn't it 4 or 5 sorties?) rather than a direct comparison to the numerous examples of Americans who scored five kills (or more) the very first time they were able to bring guns to bear on comparably far rarer enemy aircraft. There are a few examples, but it would take more than a surface examination of the record to unearth them, since the emphasis is always on gross numbers when we talk about German fighter pilots and their aircraft.

You are correct about apples and oranges, though. A closer analogy would be the first P-38 units in the Pacific (late '42 through '43), which conferred instant technological superiority (but still not in training or experience) to the few Lightning units over their initially more numerous Japanese opponents.

Most of those P-38 drivers Gibbage cited, who got their first five in a single ETO sortie, were 9th AF mudmovers caught down low by (at least) technologically comparable aircraft dedicated to the fighter role. Hardly the same as the early war trained LW experten who never suffered worse than technological parity and always enjoyed superior training and/or experience in a target-rich environment.

None of the experten Hristos loves to cite so much would have lasted a minute against a Foss, a McCampbell, or an O'Hare if both pilots were in their first month of combat when they met, flying remotely comparable aircraft, and God help them if they had run into Bong in late '42 flying a P-38F or G.

Apples and oranges indeed.

cheers

horseback

faustnik
06-01-2005, 12:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by horseback:

None of the experten Hristos loves to cite so much would have lasted a minute against a Foss, a McCampbell, or an O'Hare if both pilots were in their first month of combat when they met, flying remotely comparable aircraft, and God help them if they had run into Bong in late '42 flying a P-38F or G.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, I'm surprised you said that Horseback, a purely rediculous statement. Are you trying to one-up Hristos? Natural pilots were just that, and they came from many countries, not just from the US or Germany. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Hristos
06-01-2005, 12:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by horseback:


None of the experten Hristos loves to cite so much would have lasted a minute against a Foss, a McCampbell, or an O'Hare if both pilots were in their first month of combat when they met, flying remotely comparable aircraft, and God help them if they had run into Bong in late '42 flying a P-38F or G.


horseback </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

P-38 was and is a target drone. If it wasn't, we'd have "Little Prince" sequels by now http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


from http://home.tiscali.be/ed.ragas/awshistory/awsgalland.html


CUNNINGHAM: The Me.110 was a disappointment, then, as you say?
GALLAND: Absolutely, absolutely. And I think the Lightning was an equal mistake.

CUNNINGHAM: The P-38?
GALLAND: Yes, the P-38.

CUNNINGHAM: You mentioned in your book that P-38s were not difficult to handle in combat, that you can..
GALLAND (laughing): Many, many P-38 pilots are angry with me about this statement, but it's true.

from http://www.thehistorynet.com/wwii/blsteinhoff/index3.html

Luftwaffe Eagle Johannes Steinhoff

WWII: Please describe your humorous encounter with a Lockheed P-38 pilot named Widen in Italy in 1944.

Steinhoff: This is a good story. I was test-flying an Me-109 with my aide near our base at Foggia. This was before I had been exiled from Germany, during my first tour as Kommodore of JG.77. Well, we were attacked at low level by a flight of P-38 Lightnings, about 100 American fighters in all, but the two of us figured, why not attack? We turned into them, and I flew through their formation going in the opposite direction, getting good strikes on a couple of them. I poured a good burst into this P-38 and the pilot rolled over, and I saw him bail out. I had this on gun camera also. Well, he was picked up and made a POW, and I invited him to my tent for a drink and dinner, as well as to spend the night. We drank some of the local wine... and drank and drank. I thought to myself, "What am I going to do with this guy?" Well, it was long after midnight, so I lay down in my tent and stretched my legs so I could reach his head. He woke up and said, "Don't worry, I won't run away, you have my word as an officer and a gentleman. Besides, you got me too drunk." We slept, and he kept his word, and I never placed a guard on him.

2 Me 109s vs 100 P-38s ?! Anyone care to explain how Steinhoff and his wingman survived against such a good plane ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Gibbage1
06-01-2005, 12:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:

Cuda just showed his stats from Warclouds indicating that he can not only survive, but, have a favorable kill/death ratio in the P-38??? Are you reading these posts AerialTarget?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If Warclouds new stats page was not hosed, I would be showing a 5 to 1 kill ratio in a P-38. Hell, it shows my 2 to 1 kill ratio in a B-25! Lol. Something is a little wonky with the new system.

Gibbage1
06-01-2005, 12:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hristos:
Steinhoff: This is a good story. I was test-flying an Me-109 with my aide near our base at Foggia. This was before I had been exiled from Germany, during my first tour as Kommodore of JG.77. Well, we were attacked at low level by a flight of P-38 Lightnings, about 100 American fighters in all, but the two of us figured, why not attack? We turned into them, and I flew through their formation going in the opposite direction, getting good strikes on a couple of them. I poured a good burst into this P-38 and the pilot rolled over, and I saw him bail out. I had this on gun camera also. Well, he was picked up and made a POW, and I invited him to my tent for a drink and dinner, as well as to spend the night. We drank some of the local wine... and drank and drank. I thought to myself, "What am I going to do with this guy?" Well, it was long after midnight, so I lay down in my tent and stretched my legs so I could reach his head. He woke up and said, "Don't worry, I won't run away, you have my word as an officer and a gentleman. Besides, you got me too drunk." We slept, and he kept his word, and I never placed a guard on him.

2 Me 109s vs 100 P-38s ?! Anyone care to explain how Steinhoff and his wingman survived against such a good plane ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds like a pilots tail to me. Got proof this ever happened? Were is the gun cam footage?

faustnik
06-01-2005, 12:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hristos:

2 Me 109s vs 100 P-38s ?! Anyone care to explain how Steinhoff and his wingman survived against such a good plane ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, my guess would be luck, and that the P-38s weren't there to chase a couple wayward 109s around.

249th_Harrier
06-01-2005, 12:55 PM
There are some in this thread who like to imply that the p-38 was an inferior weapon in air-to-air combat. When the p-38 was forced into the extreme long-range and high-altitude flight profile of 8th AF strategic bombing missions, with green pilots no less, this is probably a true statement. It was never designed for this kind of application, and all of the weaknesses of the design (high alt compressibility, high alt engine reliability, cabin heating) were exposed in this mission profile. Since this was the largest theater of air combat in the ETO, the p-38 gets a bad rap. Particularly the interview with Galland where he says that p-38s were target practice. In every other theater in Europe, primarily the MTO and 9th AF, the p-38 had a sterling record in air-to-air combat. In particular there was an instance in August '44 where a squadron of p-38J (9th AF) attacked an airfield where 30 FW-190A-8 were taking off. This was one of the 'instant ace' events Gibbage mentioned. The lone squadron fought outnumbered until more p-38J arrived. The result: 25 FW destroyed to 4 p-38J. A '43 p-38 design vs the latest FW design, and the result was a massacre. There are a lot of stories like this if you look through MTO and 9th AF accounts where the p-38 operated in its comfort envelope.

NorrisMcWhirter
06-01-2005, 01:05 PM
I'd hardly call scoring a large number of kills against FW190s _taking off_ as a good example of an aircraft's combat performance.

In fact, to lose 4 aircraft in that situation is actually quite bad.

If you had an example where a similar number of P38s and 190s engaged where the 190s were not utterly vunerable then I'd be more inclined to be impressed.

I'm not saying that the P38 wasn't a valuable asset; rather that your example (and the others you suggest are similar) isn't very good. Or, in other words, consider a squadron of 190A8s attacking P38s taking off with a significant E advantage. I don't think many P38s would be surviving.

Cheers,
Norris

horseback
06-01-2005, 01:09 PM
Do a little critical thinking, my friend. All of the pilots I listed were scoring heavily as soon as they made contact, against a vastly more experienced enemy (and in the cases of Foss & O'Hare, an enemy more numerous and better equipped), thousands of miles from the homeland they were defending.

By comparison, the Germans in the early part of the war were starting out with proven weapons and aircraft generally superior to the opposition's few best (Spitfires and D. 520s were rarely seen in that first year of combat), better tactics and training, and they went into the war with their units and country prepared logistically for war with ludicrously short supply lines.

Yet few if any of those who were in combat outfits were scoring regularly from the outset.

Put the Americans I cited into Hawk 75s or Hurricanes in France, 1939-40 (without the handicaps of British or French leadership and tactics-let's say that Chennault or Jimmy Thach are their unit commanders), and I would expect them to be even more successful than they were in the Pacific.

Put Bong in the 78th FG in late '42, and don't give away that units' pilots and P-38s to Torch, and the Mustang wouldn't have been nearly as necessary in the ETO. Those early-war Lightning units were heavily supported and trained almost directly by Lockheed's best pilots and engineers, unlike the neophytes in the 20th and 55th FGs who were rushed into combat with next to no high performance twin engine training.

My point is that the best of the Americans rushed into combat in the early war did shockingly well against well prepared foes. One can only speculate about how they would have done had their enemy not had a two year head start, but I know where I'd put my money.

cheers

horseback

NorrisMcWhirter
06-01-2005, 01:17 PM
If you were replying to me....

That's your opinion and you are quite welcome to state it. Of course, no one will ever actually know if what you said is correct, nor can you prove it but then no one can disprove it either. It's purely speculation.

My point was regarding the particular engagement described previously; it's not what I'd pick out to be a fantastic example of the combat prowess of an aircraft. If that engagement was all green P38 pilots vs 190 combat veterans, I still wouldn't be impressed because shooting planes at take off is like shooting fish in a barrel.

You could look at it another way and compare the incident to shooting 262s down on takeoff as they were untouchable otherwise. I'm not going to make that suggestion but you can see my point.

Ta,
Norris

faustnik
06-01-2005, 01:24 PM
You make no sense Horseback. Put a Hartmann, Galland, Pokryshkin, Kozhedub or Sakai into the same situation as the US pilots and they would all have excelled too. Bong, Foss or O'Hare would have racked up a couple hundered kills on the Eastern Front I have no doubt.

Regarding the P-38, it was an excellent fighter for the PTO and MTO, it just wasn't as good as its comtemporaries for the ETO. Am I insulting the aircraft by saying that? I don't think so.

Gibbage1
06-01-2005, 01:28 PM
Also, both Bong and McGuire flew in the Pacific and targets were sparse and rare at best. Unline the Luftwaffe in a target ritch enviornment.

Again, we are NOT saying the P-38 was the best. Just saying its not as bad as yall think it was. It served America very well, and I have yet to read a book from a P-38 pilot who hated it.

jessi1
06-01-2005, 01:31 PM
190 is a great plane to fly, the p-38 is a great plane to fly. there settled, no more *****in. have a nice day

faustnik
06-01-2005, 01:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:
Again, we are NOT saying the P-38 was the best. Just saying its not as bad as yall think it was. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uuuugghhhh, who is saying the P-38 was bad (except Hristos who isn't serious)?????

Please read posts again. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Gibbage1
06-01-2005, 01:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:

Uuuugghhhh, who is saying the P-38 was bad (except Hristos who isn't serious)?????

Please read posts again. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was not replying to you. It just seams the "nay sayers" in this thread feel like we are trying to create the ideal P-38 or something. We are not. Just trying to make it more accurate.

BSS_CUDA
06-01-2005, 01:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hristos:
Steinhoff: This is a good story. I was test-flying an Me-109 with my aide near our base at Foggia. This was before I had been exiled from Germany, during my first tour as Kommodore of JG.77. Well, we were attacked at low level by a flight of P-38 Lightnings, about 100 American fighters in all, but the two of us figured, why not attack? We turned into them, and I flew through their formation going in the opposite direction, getting good strikes on a couple of them. I poured a good burst into this P-38 and the pilot rolled over, and I saw him bail out. I had this on gun camera also. Well, he was picked up and made a POW, and I invited him to my tent for a drink and dinner, as well as to spend the night. We drank some of the local wine... and drank and drank. I thought to myself, "What am I going to do with this guy?" Well, it was long after midnight, so I lay down in my tent and stretched my legs so I could reach his head. He woke up and said, "Don't worry, I won't run away, you have my word as an officer and a gentleman. Besides, you got me too drunk." We slept, and he kept his word, and I never placed a guard on him.

2 Me 109s vs 100 P-38s ?! Anyone care to explain how Steinhoff and his wingman survived against such a good plane ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds like a pilots tail to me. Got proof this ever happened? Were is the gun cam footage? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL no doubt, there is NO pilot that would go against 50-1 odds, you would have to have a deathwish, let me go put on my hip waders for this one so I can read it again cuz its getting deep in here now

249th_Harrier
06-01-2005, 01:41 PM
Norris, if you are really interested in what happened in that combat over France in Aug '44, I can give you the link. Your assumption that it was a vulch-fest is wrong, it was more a chaotic furball more than anything else with neither side having advantage of altitude or surprise. I can give you a lot of other links as well, which prove my point, as others have made, that outside of 8th AF escort missions, the p-38 was equal to if not superior to the machines it faced in air-to-air combat.

mynameisroland
06-01-2005, 01:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_CUDA:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AerialTarget:

Ki-84, La-5, La-7, MiG-3 U, Yak-9 U, Me-109 G-6 with AS, Me-109 G-10, Me-109 G-14, Me-109 K-4, FW-190 (except the early models), and P-51.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hummm. Interesting list. Lets see. K-4 I can out turn at speeds. All FW-190 A models I can out turn but the D's. Thems hard. I can even out turn the Ta-152. Ki-84 I have danced with many times, and came out the victor. I dont know if its lack of pilot skill, but I will dance with Ki-84's any day. Not saying I out-turn them, just I can out fly them. I can also hold my own VS single 109's well. So if we can find a date and time, I would be glad to accept your challenge. What 109 are you taking? My flying changes greatly depending on that choice. Thats what a good pilot does. Examins the target before enguaging, and addapts the flying technique for it.

Not tonight though. Its like 1 fricken AM, im sick as a dog, and I gotta get up for work in like 9 hours. Im going to bed.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed Gib to a tee, I have found exactly what you have said when flying against those AC. Target I'll take your challenge, depending on which 109 you fly, some are beatable some are not, a 38 will turn inside a K, and will out run the G2 but not out turn it, all others are a problem. I have not found a FW yet that I cannot out turn, also the TA has that nasty 38 flatspin and can be out flown with patience, as Gib said I've danced with the KI's also, won some , lost some,mixed it up none the less. last Saturday Leadspitter and I winged up ( with no comms ) he was lead and I covered. after 3 sorte's we had a combined 1000 points with only 2 deaths. 1 a PK and the other flew into the side of a mountain after coming out of a cloud,

I hear the lufty's whinning about the spit all the time, how is that when you fly your own version of it? it is a known fact that over 400mph that the 109 suffered the same compression that the 38 did, so where is it in game? doesnt exsist does it, its a known fact that the mk 108's ROF was half of what it is in game, why?, we've been flying shall we say a newer version of this game and doing testing, yes they improved the 38 with the WEP and stall, ( MMMMMMM the cloverleaf http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif )but in doing so they turned the G6-AS into a 84C+ its as fast as the 38 on deck 360 MPH has NO compression even at 800+ KPH in a straight down verticle dive, and Bleeds 0 energy and your guns are even more powerful then before. I guess you got your X-wing fighters that you spent 17 pages whinning about. we can only hope that this gets corrected before the final release.

38 pilots are a different breed, we could all EASILY hop into a spit and down your 109's and 190's but we chose to fly it for 2 reasons.

1. because its a true challenge to be good at, it is NOT a noob plane, like some others that are flown in the game. you have to be dedicated ( or commited http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif ) to fly this plane as it's currently modeled.
2. our passion for this aircraft, http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif you'll find most of the ppl that fly it have read countless books about her and studied a great deal about this plane, how many other pilots can say the same about their main rides. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cuda do you seriously belive you can jump in a 'noob' plane like the Fw 190 and be better than aguy who has spent years flying it? You have repeated in other posts your tactics in combat. You would get annihilated in a Fw if you translated them across - hell its bad enough doing it in the P38. Why are you so self righteous about the Lightning&gt;? If was a good twin that triumphed when set against slower aircraft against comparable single seaters it found the going tough. Thats no disgrace its natural.

It was not a magical plane as I keep trying to point out to you

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Gibbage1
06-01-2005, 02:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:
Cuda do you seriously belive you can jump in a 'noob' plane like the Fw 190 and be better than aguy who has spent years flying it?
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ow dear. Your inviting trouble callinga FW-190 a noob plane!

Here is what I think he was saying.

In MY experance (Me, as in Gibbage) flying and getting kills in a P-38 is harder then almost any other aircraft. When I hop into a P-51 or Spitfire, its a LOT easier to score kills. I think THATS what he is talking about. I dont fly the P-38 because its the best aircraft in the game. I fly it because getting kills in it is more personally rewarding then flying something like a Spitfire that is much easier to score with. Im rather sure that if I flew only the Spitfire, I would excell in it. But I would be bored http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

There are a LOT of people in IL2 that will only fly 1 aircraft. They work and work and work on that 1 aircraft and never fly another. Me, I fly almost EVERYTHING online to brauden my experance and fun, but I personally enjoy the P-38 out of them all.

Hristos
06-01-2005, 02:23 PM
But of course P-38 is great !

Small target with very small planform, low wingloading of only 50+ lbs/sqft, high compressibility limit of 350 mph, great search view - especially to the sides, low roll inertia allowing for quick changes of lift vector, small efficient ailerons and elevator, airbrake for inducing overshoots - what's not to like ! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Seriously, the plane is made to lose airbattles. Maybe some did good in it, but it was despite the plane, not because of it. A plane for masochists and ego boosting. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

SeaNorris
06-01-2005, 02:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:
Cuda do you seriously belive you can jump in a 'noob' plane like the Fw 190 and be better than aguy who has spent years flying it?
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ow dear. Your inviting trouble callinga FW-190 a noob plane!

Here is what I think he was saying.

In MY experance (Me, as in Gibbage) flying and getting kills in a P-38 is harder then almost any other aircraft. When I hop into a P-51 or Spitfire, its a LOT easier to score kills. I think THATS what he is talking about. I dont fly the P-38 because its the best aircraft in the game. I fly it because getting kills in it is more personally rewarding then flying something like a Spitfire that is much easier to score with. Im rather sure that if I flew only the Spitfire, I would excell in it. But I would be bored http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

There are a LOT of people in IL2 that will only fly 1 aircraft. They work and work and work on that 1 aircraft and never fly another. Me, I fly almost EVERYTHING online to brauden my experance and fun, but I personally enjoy the P-38 out of them all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I fly nearly all flyables but the main few are:

Fw-190
Bf-109
P-38
Hurricane
Gladiator
Ki-43
Buffalo

why? because its so good shooting down 'Better' planes than you.

jessi1
06-01-2005, 02:26 PM
Gentleman, this arguement is going no where, fly the plane you love and fly it to the best of your ability, if someone waxes your six then learn from it and counter the attack differently next time. None of us were in ww2 flyin these planes so in truth none of us really know (aside from books) what these planes are capable of, only what has been told thru the mouths of those that were there. BSS cuda is a good p-38 pilot(shot me on different ocasions) as well as faustnik and hristos good 190 drivers and thats all there is to it really. Stating combat records and links to luft sites still doesnt change the fact that this is a COMPUTER GAME and never will be the real thing. You guys have a lot to offer this community with the knowledge of the planes you prefer and fly well, its a shame its just used to argue about this and that, you guys can give more to the community than just going back and forth with this, no disrespect to any of you guys just my 2 cents. Have a good day, and maybe the new patch will help change some things and we can get back to the love of this game.

Gibbage1
06-01-2005, 02:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hristos:
Seriously, the plane is made to lose airbattles. Maybe some did good in it, but it was despite the plane, not because of it. A plane for masochists and ego boosting. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is just pure trolling. We can do without this. Your not offering anything usefull what-so-ever to this thread and your only starting fires. Your a FW fan, so stick to FW threads. Your dribble is not welcome here.

AerialTarget
06-01-2005, 02:29 PM
What do you think of those two P-38 and P-51 aces that both claimed that the P-38 could perform better than the P-51? The one said that the Mustang was easier to fly and maintain and had longer range, but couldn't do anything better than the P-38. Do you think that this is an exaggeration?

I suppose this makes me a "P-38 idealizer," but I believe that the P-38, while not the best fighter due to logistical problems (cost, maintainance, skill requirements), was the best performing American fighter of the war. It was faster than the P-51 at nearly all altitudes, could turn inside of it, and outclimbed it by a long shot.

faustnik
06-01-2005, 02:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AerialTarget:
What do you think of those two P-38 and P-51 aces that both claimed that the P-38 could perform better than the P-51? The one said that the Mustang was easier to fly and maintain and had longer range, but couldn't do anything better than the P-38. Do you think that this is an exaggeration?

I suppose this makes me a "P-38 idealizer," but I believe that the P-38, while not the best fighter due to logistical problems (cost, maintainance, skill requirements), was the best performing American fighter of the war. It was faster than the P-51 at nearly all altitudes, could turn inside of it, and outclimbed it by a long shot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

?????????????

The best reference I have on those a/c is Americas Hundred Thousand. It lists the P-51D as faster and more maneuverable than the P-38L with the P-38 having the edge in climb and acceleration. The Joint Fighter Conference pilots rated the P-51 as superior to the P-38 in almost all of the listed catagories. So, yes, I think you are a "P-38 Idealizer".

Hristos
06-01-2005, 02:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hristos:
Seriously, the plane is made to lose airbattles. Maybe some did good in it, but it was despite the plane, not because of it. A plane for masochists and ego boosting. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is just pure trolling. We can do without this. Your not offering anything usefull what-so-ever to this thread and your only starting fires. Your a FW fan, so stick to FW threads. Your dribble is not welcome here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, name good characteristics of P-38 !

SeaNorris
06-01-2005, 02:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hristos:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hristos:
Seriously, the plane is made to lose airbattles. Maybe some did good in it, but it was despite the plane, not because of it. A plane for masochists and ego boosting. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is just pure trolling. We can do without this. Your not offering anything usefull what-so-ever to this thread and your only starting fires. Your a FW fan, so stick to FW threads. Your dribble is not welcome here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, name good characteristics of P-38 ! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So Lockheed did this:

Hey, US ARMY here is a twin engined plane designed to lose airbattles, be glad you take it because you will be losing with it.

VF-2_John_Banks
06-01-2005, 02:56 PM
About the range....didn't the P-38 had the longer range compared to the Mustang, whe nboth planes were equipped with external tanks?

horseback
06-01-2005, 02:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
You make no sense Horseback. Put a Hartmann, Galland, Pokryshkin, Kozhedub or Sakai into the same situation as the US pilots and they would all have excelled too. Bong, Foss or O'Hare would have racked up a couple hundered kills on the Eastern Front I have no doubt.

Regarding the P-38, it was an excellent fighter for the PTO and MTO, it just wasn't as good as its comtemporaries for the ETO. Am I insulting the aircraft by saying that? I don't think so. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wouldn't put Hartmann in that group. An almost perfect example of what I was talking about, he took a long time to get started, and I would contend that much of his eventual success was matter of circumstances matching his admittedly formidable talents almost perfectly. Had he taken part in the Battle of Britain as an inexperienced rookie instead of the Eastern Front at early mid-war, he would have been the first to agree that he would be lucky to survive the experience.

The Germans made a practice in the first half of the war of bringing young pilots along slowly, while they still had that luxery. This was unique in WWII, and primarily a reflection of the relative preparedness of the German military at the war's outset (that the political leadership pissed it away is not so much relevent as instructive).

Allied air forces were more likely at the war's outbreak to throw their young men into the deep end of the pool right away, because they had less choice (Allied prewar leadership having been negligent in their turn), and the relative casualty rates early on reflect this. Guys like Foss, Bong, and O'Hare (and Pokryshin, Malan, Tuck, Bader, George Welch and Buzz Wagner) were exceptions to the general rule in that they were largely self-trained for combat, and were prepared for its rigors, in addition to being exceptional pilots.

As for the P-38's performance in Europe, it cannot be overstated how poorly the first two P-38 groups in the 8th AF were prepared and supported compared to the Mustang and Thunderbolt, due to the USAAF's insistance upon ignoring its obvious differences from single engine types. Much more effort would have been expended to making it successful had the Mustang not been available.

Conversely, had it been present in the ETO at the outset, with the prewar '38 trained 78th FG operating it in gradual buildup of support of the bombing effort (like the P-47), the potential problems would have been more easily identified and remedied before the Mustang got a Merlin engine and deployed to Britain in autumn of '43.

As I have pointed out in numerous earlier posts and threads, the initial groups deployed with the Lightning everywhere else were spoon fed the type (this particularly applies to their support units) prewar and had flown it for a year or so before entering combat. In the Pacific, units converting to it in-theater had prior combat experience and knew that it would give them immediate superior performance over the opposition.

Compare this to the ill-prepared rookies of the 20th and 55th FGs who were poorly supported, indifferently led (no Zemkes, Blakeslees or Meyers there) and thrown to the wolves over central Europe. From what I've read, they lost their flight leaders almost as soon as they were promoted, and the unit 'hotshots' managed to get shot down or kill themselves in crashes before they could establish themselves in combat.

Poor support, bad (or missing) leadership, and good old fashioned bad luck have more to do with the Lightning's reputation in the ETO than the relative merits of the aircraft.

Norris, if I read Steinhoff's memoir right, at the time of his 'interception' of "100" P-38s at Foggia, there weren't 100 operational P-38s flyable in the Mediterranean theater. At most, there were less than 50 aircraft available for a maximum effort strike across from North Africa, and I'd wager Steinhoff and his wingman had more combat hours at that time than all the American pilots present combined.

Given that he had the advantages of altitude and surprise, it's no shock that he was able to pick off an inexperienced pilot concentrating on ground attack. He had to realize how hard it would be to identify two Messerscmitts in a sky full of Lightnings, much less chase them down after they'd executed a classic bounce.

No soup for you, mate. By the way, I heard the neighbors say 'Ta' a lot when I lived in Ipswich. You aren't from (the real) Suffolk, are you?

cheers

horseback

Gibbage1
06-01-2005, 03:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hristos:

OK, name good characteristics of P-38 ! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Range

Firepower

Versitility

Payload

Durability

Redundancy

High altitude performance

Speed

Stability

It was a true multi-roll aircraft. It played every roll in WWII an aircraft could, and played it in every theater that American's faught in. It gave more then it got, even in Europ, spawned the TOP TWO Aces America had.

faustnik
06-01-2005, 03:27 PM
So, how would you rate these late war ETO fighters in the pure fighter role?

1.Spit MkXIV
2.P-51D
3.Fw190D
4.Tempest
5.Bf109G10
6.P-47D-27
7.P-38L

(BTW, the above would be my ranking. 2-4 are about all a tie in my opinion.)

Gibbage1
06-01-2005, 03:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
So, how would you rate these late war ETO fighters in the pure fighter role?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How would you rate it in the Pacific? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Or the MTO? Close, if not #1 on both counts. How about North Afrika? #1. I think the P-38's helped victory in North Afrika more then any other aircraft helped in any other theiter by decimating the Ju-52 supply routs. BTW, the Ju-52's were often escorted by more 109's then the P-38's sent to attack them. The P-38's still managed to bag the Ju-52's and a few 109's in the process. And those were the older P-38's. Not the newer J or L models.

faustnik
06-01-2005, 03:39 PM
Well, '43 PTO definately number 1, until the P-51 and late F4U got there. There were some good a/c in the MTO including the Bf109G4, Spit XIII and Fw190A5. The G4 and Spit would be pretty tough in a dogfight. The Fw190 and P-38 would duel it out for 3rd place.

How about answering my question. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

BigKahuna_GS
06-01-2005, 03:59 PM
S!

__________________________________________________ ________________________
Hristos-- Me 109s vs 100 P-38s ?! Anyone care to explain how Steinhoff and his wingman survived against such a good plane ?
__________________________________________________ ________________________



Guess you have selective posting on Stienhoff

WWII Magazine: Of all the Allied fighters you encountered, which was the most difficult to handle with a good pilot at the controls?

Steinhoff: The Lightning. It was fast, low profiled and a fantastic fighter,and a real danger when it was above you. It was only vulnerable if you were behind it, a little below and closing fast, or turning into it, but on the attack it was a tremendous aircraft. One shot me down from long range in 1944. That would be the one, although the P-51 [Mustang] was deadly because of the long range, and it could cover any air base in Europe. This made things difficult, especially later when flying the jets.



__________________________________________________ ________________________
Faustick--The best reference I have on those a/c is Americas Hundred Thousand. It lists the P-51D as faster and more maneuverable than the P-38L with the P-38 having the edge in climb and acceleration. The Joint Fighter Conference pilots rated the P-51 as superior to the P-38 in almost all of the listed catagories. So, yes, I think you are a "P-38 Idealizer".
__________________________________________________ _______________________



Thats the trouble Faustnick, you are NOT using the best refrence for the P38 !

Try " Vee for Victory" by Daniel Whitney & "The P38 Lightning" by Warren Bodie.


Bodie W.M. 'The Lockheed P-38 Lightning', Widewing Publications, 1991

The typical numbers presented for the P38J are 421 mph IN WEP.

The typical numbers presented for the P38L are 414 mph IN METO(military)
In other words the wrong V-max at alt has been posted for years for the P38L, 414mph was with military power not WEP.

The difference between METO and WEP is 600 hp. The -30 produced a minimum of 1,725 hp in WEP. As opposed to 1,425 hp in METO.

The -17 installed in the P-38J had the same METO rating as the -30 at 1,425 hp. However, the -17 only made 1,600 hp in WEP. The additional power could push the L to speeds over 440 mph. Warren Bodie concludes the maximum speed in WEP as 443 mph at altitudes between 20,000 and 23,500 ft. Bodie obtained his data directly from Lockheed, where he was employed as an engineer on the U-2 and F-117 programs. Therefore, I tend to except Bodie as a more credible source.

Allison spent a great deal of time and money on the "dash thirty" program.
They produced volumes of dynometer data for Lockheed and the AAF.
Lockheed did their own testing and confirmed the Allison numbers. Hence,
the installation of the -30 in the L model.

The following are the CORRECT stats for the Allison V-1710F-30.


Ratings [minutes] Power RPM Manifold [in.Hg] Altitude [ft]
Normal (no limit)- 1,100 -- 2,600 -- 44 -- 30,000
Take Off (5)- 1,475 -- 3,000 -- 54 -- SL
Military (15) - 1,475-- 3,000 -- 54 -- 30,000
WEP (5) - 1,725 -- 3,200 -- 60 -- 28,700


The main reason for right and left "handed" engines was to eliminate torque. You could change power settings in the P-38 and not have to retrim the airplane. The P-38 did not require generous amounts of rudder when advanciing the throttles on takeoff. To quote one notorious P-38 pilot: "Because the engines rotated in opposite directions, they produceda symmetrical slip stream flow which eliminated the need the carry rudder displacement, thus reducing a source of drag. And there was no change in trim with changes in speed, which was a pure blessing in maneuver combat."

The basic performance figures for the P-38L are as follows (from Lockheed
factory test logbooks):

Max speed at sea level: 360 mph
Max speed at 5,500 ft : 369 mph
Max speed at 23,500 ft. 440 mph (WEP) 5 minutes max.
Max speed at critical alt: 444 mph @ 25,800 (WEP) 5 minutes max.


In 4.0 think of no torque, improved stall and better engines for the P38L.

____________

faustnik
06-01-2005, 04:17 PM
Kahuna,

Aren't you talking about non-standard ratings? What are the figures for the P-51 and P-47 at overboosted ratings?

You are the first person to tell me that AHT is incorrect. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

249th_Harrier
06-01-2005, 04:19 PM
I think we are in agreement that p-38 was at parity with its opponents in the MTO in terms of air combat capability. Don't forget the p-38 also had more than double the range of its opponents, redundant engines, greater load carrying capacity, concentrated strafing ability, etc so parity is a pretty major achievement. This parity in Europe (excepting those 8th AF escorts) was probably maintained until about November '44. Personally I am more interested in the air war before this point, since after this the Luftwaffe was reduced to piecemeal actions, but if late was planes turn your crank, thats fine. I think if the flight model issues were addressed, then parity would be achieved between the p-38 versions and their contemporaries, say the 109G4 and J, and FW190A8 and L respectively. I would be satisfied if a only more realistic compression modeling were applied to ALL PLANES. Hopefully the new flight model will achieve this.

NorrisMcWhirter
06-01-2005, 04:30 PM
No soup? Are we being condescending? Regardless, I suggest you read the thread again because I'm none the wiser why you refer to Steinhoff's account with respect to me; I didn't present or adopt it as being truthful. So, maybe it's 'close but no cigar' for you, while we are on the subject? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

As to pilot accounts of _actual combat_,I have little faith in them and that's something I've said before. Read any and pilots will say that they didn't really know what was going on during a battle except for very brief moments of clarity. Having said that, decorated flier Pierre Clostermann did emphasise quite heavily that a "certain airforce" made 'laughable' claims during their European operations, something which only reinforces my skepticism. Of course, he wasn't in the air when he made those claims so they automatically have more credibility http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And no, I'm not from Suffolk. Although I did have a Suffolk Colt petrol mower at one point.

249th: by all means, give the link to the account and, yes, I did conclude that it was a 'vulching' exercise because it it's entirely reasonable to think that from the information you gave. As I said, though, I'll take it with a large pinch of salt.

Maybe you are thinking that I'm trying to diss the P38? I'm not. I think it's a useful piece of kit for ground attack coupled with a subsequent fast escape. It's also quite handy for bnz but, because I have a 190 hat on, I rarely slow down to sample it's turning 'delights'. I'd hardly call it uber, though.

Ta,
Norris

BigKahuna_GS
06-01-2005, 04:40 PM
S!



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Faustnick-You are the first person to tell me that AHT is incorrect. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Talk to Oleg--LoL. Most of the information listed in AHT is correct. But there are those occasions when testing procedures and specific information are a mixed bag.


Source: Vee's For Victory! The Story of the Allison V-1710 Aircraft Engine 1929-1948 by Daniel D. Whitney & Warren Bodie "The P38 Lightning"

The standard P38L engine was the Allison F-30 capable of 3,200rpm & 1,725bhp. This engine proved to be more reliable than all prevoius P38 engines. This was primarily due to the 12-cwt crankshaft used in the F-30. At 1725bhp at 3200rpms, the F-30s bearing and crankcase load was less than that of the F-17 at 1600bhp and 3000rpms with its 6-cwt crankshaft. The F-30 could run longer at 1725bhp than the F-17 could at 1600bhp.

This is the standard Allison F-30 engine performance--NOT overboosted.


The P47 could ran at 72" MAP overboosted, Robert Johnson said his early model P47D-5 was hitting 470mph TAS at alt in 1943/44. Later model overboosted P47's claimed even higher speeds.

The RAF Mustang Mark III's were overboosted to 25lb and did over 400mph TAS at sea level, 425mph at 15,000ft and over 450mph at alt.
Some US FG's did this also. Most common late war engine rating was 72" MAP for US P-51 FG's. The P51-20NA in AEP/PF does not have this rating and it should.

Irpp is the real expert on overboosted P51's in service with the RAF & US Fighter Groups. He has all the documents/records.

___

faustnik
06-01-2005, 04:44 PM
Kahuna,

Did the USAAF run the L's at 3200rpm? Also, when did the first L's see combat with the 9th?

Thanks

Gwalker70
06-01-2005, 05:00 PM
The P38L late should outclimb and out accelerate.. and at slow speed out turn the P51 D .. if it is like that in 4.0 release.. than I am happy.. and to tell you the truth.. if I can climb well and accelerate well up to mid 400's than I am happy.. I have seen charts of the two planes compared and the P38L killed the P51 in accelerate and climb.. as a matter of fact.. the P38L had like the top 3 accelerations of ALL planes in the entire war both allied and axis.. so we will see lol

Gibbage1
06-01-2005, 05:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
Well, '43 PTO definately number 1, until the P-51 and late F4U got there. There were some good a/c in the MTO including the Bf109G4, Spit XIII and Fw190A5. The G4 and Spit would be pretty tough in a dogfight. The Fw190 and P-38 would duel it out for 3rd place.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The P-38 had not only range, but payload and redundancy. That was needed more in the pacific then pure speed and manuverability. True? I would put the P-38 on top due to just that alone. You dont want to be over open water and have some engine troubles in a single engine aircraft http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Even though the P-51 was more nimble and a little faster, those quality's was not needed as much in the Pacific as it did in the ETO.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
How about answering my question. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ow. I thought that was your list.

As a "pure fighter" I would rank it rather low. The P-38 was NEVER a pure fighter. A "pure" fighter (A fighter aircraft spacifically designed to shoot down another fighter aircraft) was rather useless in the scope of the war. A single fighter or a group of fighters could not alter the war. Bombers, intercepters, recon played a bigger role. Multi-role aircraft were FAR more valuable too the war effort then just some little light fighter.

Any country could build a 5000lb aircraft with 30 mins of fuel, a big engine and slap a gun on it. But it wont turn the tide of war. Sure it would be a **** good fighter, but useless.

Lets examin the great fighters we have today. F-14, F-15, F-18, F-22, Mig-29, Su-27, Grippen, Eurofighter and so on. All these aircraft are capable of multi-roles, and also have 2 engines. The P-38 was the wave of the future. The 109 was not.

OK. Lets get to your list.

1.Spit MkXIV
2.P-51D
3.Fw190D
4.Tempest
5.Bf109G10
6.P-47D-27
7.P-38L

As for PURE fighter.

#1. 109G10.
#2. 190D9

Its the only pure fighters on your list http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif The rest are multi-roll capable and played a much bigger part of the war in general. As for the aircraft that played the biggest part in Europ, I would say it would be the P-47. Nobody can deny not only its air-2-air kills, but also its ground kills.

BigKahuna_GS
06-01-2005, 05:15 PM
S!


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Faustic--Did the USAAF run the L's at 3200rpm? Also, when did the first L's see combat with the 9th? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Hya Faustnick,

The P38L was rountinly operating at 3,200rpm @ 1,725bhp.

The standard Allison F-30 engine from the factory was capable 3,200rpm and 1,725 WER. This was NOT overboosted. The USAAF had concerns over the extra 200rpms but pilots routinely flew the P38L this way and the engine proved to be very reliable. All the pilot had to do was advance the throttle a little farther to get those extra 200rpms . No field mod was needed. The advent of 150grade Avgas in the ETO sealed the deal of running the P38L at these ratings.

The P38L operated in all theaters of war and served with the 8th & 9th Air Force.


_____

BigKahuna_GS
06-01-2005, 06:00 PM
S!


Warren Bodie list deliveries of the P38L to the ETO as June of 1944 till deliveries ceased in August of 1945 in the PTO. I would imagine that all P38 FG's in the ETO started reciving P38L's in June of 44' then.



___

249th_Harrier
06-01-2005, 07:10 PM
For those who think that the p-38 was at a disadvantage in air-to-air combat against the Luftwaffe in '44, please read the following accounts regarding the 367th fighter group, part of the 9th tactical airforce, who flew p-38s until January '45:

http://www.flightsim.com/cgi/kds?$=main/feature/367.htm

Here is a sample:
***************************
Fierce, Unrelenting Air Battles
A resurgence of Luftwaffe activity occurred in August and the 367th was thrown right smack in the middle of the fray. On August 22nd the Group was ordered to simultaneously attack three separate airfields in the Laon area.
The 392nd Squadron, led by Major Rogers, dive-bombed and destroyed two hangars on one airfield but were jumped by twelve FW 190s. Major Rogers called the other squadrons for help. The 393rd was jumped by 18 ME 109s and FW 190s as they reformed from their dive bomb run. Lt Buchanan shot down one. Two Germans cornered Lt Awtrey and shot off his canopy. Without a canopy, Awtrey out maneuvered the two and riddled one of them. Lt Stanley Johnson called to report that he was bailing out of his aircraft that had been shot to pieces. Johnson's parachute was seen to open but he was never heard of again. After bombing its target, the 394th Squadron, led by Lt Pieper, turned to help the 392nd. His flight bounced four Germans but in turn was attacked by three others. One of the FW 190s shot out one of Lt Pieper's engines but was destroyed in turn by Pieper's wingman, Lt Lee. The fight continued with the 394th shooting down six additional aircraft including one destroyed by Lt Pieper flying with one engine feathered. In the mean time, the 392nd had taken care of itself, destroying five enemy aircraft without a loss. Victories were by Lieutenants Hartwig, Kines, O'Donnel, Diefendorf and Markley. Altogether the Group had destroyed 14 enemy aircraft for a loss of one.


The Day The Sky Was On Fire
Returning to the Laon area on August 25th, the 367th simultaneously attacked three Luftwaffe airfields at Clastres, Perone and Rossiers. The dive bombing attacks ignited one of the greatest fighter versus fighter air battles in U.S. history. It was unique in that most of the action took place in a relatively small area and from 3000 feet to ground level. There are still witnesses to this dramatic event who refer to it as the "The day the sky over I'Aisne was on fire."
The fight started when Major Gardner, leading the 392nd Squadron, radioed the other two squadrons the location of thirty FW 190s that had just taken off. He led his flight on the initial attack and four FW 190s fell simultaneously. Before the cover flight could reach them, Major Gardner and the other three members of his flight were surrounded and shot down. Captain Mateson leading the cover flight shot down two, Lt Lezie damaged one and destroyed another. Lt Platt shot down another while Lt Tremblay hit the wing root and cockpit of another FW 190. After driving three 190s from the tail of a P-38, Lt Lemley had his right engine shot out, but was able to escape at tree top level. Lieutenants' Broniee and Conney were shot down and killed in action.


The 15-Minute Ace
With the 392nd and 393rd Squadrons joining the fight the odds were more even. Major Griffin leading the 392nd attacked from out of the sun and shot down one FW 190 and damaged another as did Lieutenants Livingston and Plotecia.
Captain Larry "Scrappy" Blumer leading the 393rd and with Lt Awtrey on his wing destroyed five enemy aircraft. Scrappy became an ace on one mission in just 15 minutes of air combat.

Lt Pacek flying his third combat mission shot down two and Lieutenants Dobrowolosk and Melvin Jones destroyed one each.

Of the 50 enemy aircraft engaged, 25 were destroyed, one probably destroyed and 17 damaged. The 367th lost two pilots KIA. Four others bailed out over enemy held France. In the afternoon the 367th destroyed sixteen JU 52s while on a long range strafing mission to airfields in the Dijon-Bordeaux area. For its achievements on August 25th, the 367th Fighter Group received the Presidential Unit Citation, the highest possible award for a unit in combat.
***************************

To illustrate that the 367th made do with the J model, here are the serial #s from the 392nd fighter squadron:
http://www.publicenquiry.co.uk/squads/fs392nd.html

For a taste of how the p-38 performed in the MTO, read this link to an interview with Frank Hurlbut of the 82nd Fighter Group :
http://historynet.com/ahi/blhurlbut/index1.html

Here is an excerpt:
**************************
Hurlbut: Our missions then were primarily long-range, low-level sorties escorting North American B-25s into enemy controlled areas of Italy, Sicily and Sardinia. We also were sent on search-and-destroy fighter missions, and we had to dive-bomb anti-aircraft emplacements, shipping and ports as well. When I first started combat in April 1943, it was really not unusual for our underequipped and understaffed unit to be flying with only 12 to 20 P-38s and be hit by more than 30 to 100 enemy fighters. Our losses were inescapable, but the enemy's were even greater. The 82nd finally became the top P-38 fighter group in the European theater, with more than 500 enemy victories confirmed
(snip)
AH: That must have been the June 18 mission when you got the Reggiane, your ace-making fifth. Then there was your "big day," covering the Allied invasion of Sicily, on July 10, 1943. What happened on that occasion?

Hurlbut: We were in a 20-minute fight, but I got two within the first five or six minutes. It was during the afternoon of invasion day. We had flown from our temporary base in Tripoli, joining the British to conduct a fighter sweep over the western end of Sicily, with the goal of keeping the enemy planes away from the invasion area. We could see hundreds of the invasion ships, with their tiny landing barges racing back and forth to the beaches. We flew over the Palermo area and found that we had the air to ourselves, so we circled around waiting for the enemy to show up. We didn't have to wait long. Formations of Focke Wulfs began to take to the air from their bases around Palermo. They climbed to our altitude and the fight began. When the first Fw-190 banked in front of me, it was so close that I hardly had to use my gunsight. I set it on fire and saw it circle down to the left, but I did not have time to see it crash. Enemy fighters were all over the place, and I gave my attention to them, needless to say. Suddenly a Lufbery Circle developed. It was made up of German Focke Wulfs and American Lightnings in a single file, swinging around in a left banking turn, first climbing and then descending. Everyone was firing at the enemy in front of him, all at the same time. I was closing to the inside of an Fw-190 that was climbing. Right behind me was another P-38. But he had a Focke Wulf on his tail, who had a P-38 on his tail. It was like we were all playing follow-the-leader. I was very close to the Fw-190 and hit him with three quick bursts. He went over on one wing into a spin and crashed. All this time I had been worried about the friendly P-38 on my tail who was being pursued by the second Focke Wulf. I think I was the only one lucky enough to have the guy behind me on the same side. I recall that I would fire, then look back and yell over the radio to my friend to watch out for the fighter on his tail. But apparently that German plane was damaged, because he soon dropped out. Then we both went over to another area to look for more action.

AH: Obviously you found it. You were credited with those three victories and one damaged that day.

Hurlbut: I found my third one while coming down in a dive. I looked down and saw him skipping along close to the water, heading for Sicily. There was a P-38 chasing him from some distance back, but the German was pulling away. I had plenty of speed, so I dived down between them. My first burst got him, and he crashed into the sea. Another Fw-190 cut across in front of me from the right. I led him and fired, hitting him as he flew through my fire. But he kept on going. I claimed him as a damaged. Then we hung around for a while, but the enemy didn't seem to want to play anymore. So we flew home. I only claimed the two planes I had seen crash, but I got credit for the first one, as other pilots in our group had seen it go down.
****************************

Here is a history of the 82nd fighter group:
http://www.82ndfightergroup.com/82history.htm

For balance, here a link to what was considered the worst day for the p-38s in the MTO:
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/vizanti/vizanti.htm

Losses were heavy, but p-38s still claimed as many kills as they had losses, and they still managed to work over the refinery.

From these accounts there is no way that the p-38 was bomb-and-run jabo. The p-38 was an air superiority fighter with excellent range and the capability to carry out jabo, low to mid-altitude escort, intercept, and recon missions. It is also clear that the p-38 did not mow down everything in their wake, so it appears there was rough parity between the performance of the p-38 and its Luftwaffe contemporaries up until the battle of the bulge.

faustnik
06-01-2005, 09:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The P-38 had not only range, but payload and redundancy. That was needed more in the pacific then pure speed and manuverability. True? I would put the P-38 on top due to just that alone. You dont want to be over open water and have some engine troubles in a single engine aircraft Even though the P-51 was more nimble and a little faster, those quality's was not needed as much in the Pacific as it did in the ETO. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree 100%!!! The extra engine would be the best insurance you could get! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

- Nice dodge on the pure fighter role question, wimp. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

***********************

Kahuna,

Thanks for your answer. The high output P-38L should make a great addition to PF. I'm looking forward to flying it. The trick will be finding the best attack loudout that leaves you with the best fighter ability after stores are expended. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I didn't realize that the 8th used L's. I though they had abandoned the P-38 by then.

horseback
06-01-2005, 10:30 PM
Norris-

sorry, confused your post with one of Hristos' exercises in distraction. "No soup for you" is a reference to the 'Soup Nazi' episode of Seinfeld, a popular comedy here a few years back. You may have to be a Yank to get the reference, but we found it an hysterically funny show.

However, when Pierre Clostermann accuses persons of a "certain air force" of overclaiming, I consider it a fine example of nerve and hypocrisy. Check his RAF credits vs what the French Armee de l'Air says he got (apparently on his say so). There seems to be a bit of a discrepancy...

Unfortunately, there seems to be some confusion on the part of many on this forum about the relationship of the FB/PF flight model of the 'P-38' with capabilities of the real thing. The game's version is formidible in some respects, and frankly castrated of other important & unique qualities in a way that hints of the quaint reverse sizism ("mine's smaller than yours") that held sway in European fighter circles until the Brits found themselves flying around tearing the sh!te out things in Typhoons and Tempests, the Germans (and their spiritual heirs) found themselves telling anyone who would listen that the Do-335 would've eaten Mustangs for lunch, and the Russians finally built a flying soccer field called the Flanker.

Every aircraft fielded in WWII could do certain things better than certain other opposing airplanes could do them. Lightnings could fly high, fast and far, and when they got where they were going, spit out a fat stream of lead in a tight cone. The P-38 was designed to a requirement in the late 1930s for a bomber interceptor, not as a bomber escort, high speed reconnaissance aircraft, or air superiority fighter, and certainly not as a ground pounder, yet it did all of these things quite well.

Its greatest limitation was that it was not designed to be mass-produced, and when it turned out to be the only high performance fighter type the US had on hand, everybody wanted lots of them, and nobody had enough of them until over three years later. Its second greatest limitation was that it was hard to fly well, and if your first impression was based on your time in the cockpit instead of seeing what could be done with it if you mastered it, then you wouldn't think much of it. Big mistake.

cheers

horseback

AerialTarget
06-01-2005, 10:39 PM
And once more, the scum P-38 haters reveal that they haven't done their homework.

Hristos, I don't think I need bother with you much more, because it's very clear to anyone with the intelligence to find their way onto this forum that not only are you making strong statements about something you have not bothered to do the most elementary research on, but you are attempting to goad P-38 fanatics into wasting our time with long explainations.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
The best reference I have on those a/c is Americas Hundred Thousand. It lists the P-51D as faster and more maneuverable than the P-38L with the P-38 having the edge in climb and acceleration. The Joint Fighter Conference pilots rated the P-51 as superior to the P-38 in almost all of the listed catagories. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sure you've seen Leadspitter's graph that he obtained from Lockheed. The P-51 was only faster than the P-38 between the altitudes of one thousand and fifteen thousand feet. The P-38 was faster at sea level and from fifteen thousand feet to forty thousand feet.

Argue with this. (http://users.adelphia.net/~j.r.engdahl/josh/P-38speedchart.JPG)

"The Eighth was, at last, being flooded with Mustangs and well trained pilots. The Mustang was a delight to fly, easier to maintain, cheaper to build and train pilots for, and had long legs. In those respects you can rightfully call it better, but it could not do anything better than a P-38 J-25 or L. Just remember who took the war to the enemy and held on under inconceivable odds. Enough of the ****."

P-38 pilot Arthur Heiden

Gibbage1
06-01-2005, 10:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
- Nice dodge on the pure fighter role question, wimp. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nice dodge? WTF? I thought it was a **** GOOD dodge? I mean come on! That was one of the best dodges you have seen on UBi. Admit it!!! Not only did I dodge the question, but I managed to slam the Luftwaffles in a way they wont understand for years in the middle of what they think may be a complament.

As for air 2 air fighting ability on a 1 on 1 situation, I would put the P-38 in a 4 way tie for last place with the P-47, Tempest and FW-190. Spit would be on top, fallowed by the 109 and then the P-51.

Gibbage1
06-01-2005, 10:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by horseback:

Every aircraft fielded in WWII could do certain things better than certain other opposing airplanes could do them. Lightnings could fly high, fast and far, and when they got where they were going, spit out a fat stream of lead in a tight cone. The P-38 was designed to a requirement in the late 1930s for a bomber interceptor, not as a bomber escort, high speed reconnaissance aircraft, or air superiority fighter, and certainly not as a ground pounder, yet it did all of these things quite well.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good post and WELL SAID!

Hristos
06-01-2005, 10:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Range
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Useless in air battles.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Firepower
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Average, weaker than Fw 190A, Me 262, Typhoon, Tempest, Spitfire (4 Hispanos), P47.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Versitility
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Useless in air battles.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Payload
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Useless in air battles.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Durability
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Useful.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Redundancy
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What's that ?!?!


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
High altitude performance
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

414 mph ? That's average at best.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Speed
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Below standards in ETO.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Stability
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Too stable, even sluggish, I'd say.

The characteristics you describe make for great ground pounder, but not an air superiority fighter. As it is now in PF, P-38 is premiere ground pounder.


Now, bad characteristics:

Big target, especially for planform shots.

Distinctive shape visible and recognizable from far away - allows the enemy better SA.

Compressibility at high speeds - poor diver, poor BnZer, poor escaper. Split S used to be Luftwaffe's most effective escape from P-38.

Poor search view because of engines and twin tail.

Huge roll inertia - no roll agility.

Low roll rate until boosted ailerons were introduced - other aircraft flew without such measuers as boosted ailerons and dive brakes. This speaks quite well of the plane itself.

Needs dive brakes to dive - can it catch anything if it has to deploy brakes so it doesn't lawndart itself ? Can it escape from anything ?

AerialTarget
06-01-2005, 11:01 PM
Wha...? Gibbage, how could you? Last place?

The Thirty Eight is faster than a Mustang at most altitudes; it can always get away, if only by diving (carefully) to the deck. And it could turn with a Spitfire by using the cloverleaf.

AerialTarget
06-01-2005, 11:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hristos:
"Firepower"

Average, weaker than Fw 190A, Me 262, Typhoon, Tempest, Spitfire (4 Hispanos), P47. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Firepower is concentrated in the nose, with no shaking from wing mounts. The lack of need for convergence means that guns are equally effective, barring energy loss, at all ranges and not just mainly at a particular point that is a certain distance from your aircraft.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
"Redundancy"

What's that ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Although your posts are a good example ("lolololol P38 suxxorz im a dumb mokney loolol"), in this case it means that two engines is twice as good as one.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
"High altitude performance"

414 mph ? That's average at best.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here is proof that you are ignoring the evidence which you requested and others painstakingly provided you in this thread. Your data is quite wrong.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
"Speed"

Below standards in ETO. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

See above answer.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
"Stability"

Too stable, even sluggish, I'd say.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, you've flown a real P-38, have you? Don't be ridiculous.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
As it is now in PF, P-38 is premiere ground pounder. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but the argument is not that the P-38 is a good plane in Pacific Fighters. The argument is that it was a good plane in real life. In Pacific Fighters, it's not even a good ground pounder because it's not fast enough. The P-51 carries the same number of bombs, is faster, and more manueverable - in the game, not in real life.

I won't even address your mostly false bad characteristics because I have already wasted enough time on a post that you will not even read.

lrrp22
06-01-2005, 11:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AerialTarget:
The P-51 carries the same number of bombs, is faster, and more manueverable - in the game, not in real life.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

For the most part, in real life too. The Mustang will out-turn the P-38 at all but the lowest speeds. I will out-roll the boosted L at all but the very highest speeds. Dive recovery flaps or not, the Mustang will most likely always outdive and outzoom the Lightning.

The best speed numbers for the 1725 HP P-38L are right there with some of the most conservative for the Mustang. The chart you posted illustrates the fact that with any additional boosting at all, the P-51D will be considerably faster than the L to around 23,000 ft after which they are virtually identical.

I have to agree with faustnik here, the P-38 was a very fine airplane with many virtues, but I think you guys might be trying to make it just a bit better than it was.

AerialTarget
06-01-2005, 11:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AerialTarget:
Argue with this. (http://users.adelphia.net/~j.r.engdahl/josh/P-38speedchart.JPG)

"The Eighth was, at last, being flooded with Mustangs and well trained pilots. The Mustang was a delight to fly, easier to maintain, cheaper to build and train pilots for, and had long legs. In those respects you can rightfully call it better, but it could not do anything better than a P-38 J-25 or L. Just remember who took the war to the enemy and held on under inconceivable odds. Enough of the ****."

P-38 pilot Arthur Heiden </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And since the graph seems to have been ignored, I am going to it.

[img]http://users.adelphia.net/~j.r.engdahl/josh/P-38speedchart.JPG

Gibbage1
06-01-2005, 11:49 PM
Your such a worthless troll, I dont even know why I am bothering to reply to this.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Range


Useless in air battles.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really? Tell that to the BF-109E pilots who had to tuck there tails between there legs and run for home 5-10 minutes after enguaging. Or tell that to the "Superior" Me-262 pilot who had to land with 6 P-51's hot on his tail. I bet they both would of LOVED some extra fuel at those moments. Also tell that to the He-111 bomber pilots who lost there escort of short range 109E's soon after they his the English coast. Short range is a heavy handycap.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

Firepower

Average, weaker than Fw 190A, Me 262, Typhoon, Tempest, Spitfire (4 Hispanos), P47.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Average? Sorry, NO! The firepower was concentrated in the nose. How many in your list has that? Me-262. Me-262 was a LATE 1944 1945 aircraft. P-38 had the concentrated firepower in 1940 when the Luftwaffe and RAF were traiding 7.62's!!!! Also the first production models of P-38's had 4 .50 cal and a 37MM! Also, since it was not wing mounted, it had no horizontal convergance problems and could score kills at a much greater distance. Also, the 20MM was about equal to 3x .50 cal, so in fact it had ALMOST as much firepower as a P-47, but since it was all concentrated in a square foot, I would give the edge to the P-38.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

Versitility

Useless in air battles.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry. I guess you simply dont understand the importance of a multi-roll aircraft. Shooting a fighter does nothing to advance war. Having an aircraft like the P-47 that can shoot down fighters, attack ground targets, and escort bombers is FAR FAR FAR more important then a pure fighter. The point of a war is NOT to kill 1 man, but to eliminate the ability of a NATION to fight.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

Payload

Useless in air battles.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but see above. Air battles are almost useless in itself.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Durability

Useful.

[QUOTE]

Yep.

[QUOTE]

Redundancy

What's that ?!?!

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess since you only fly single engine fighters you would have no clue about this. It adds too durability. Figure it out.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
High altitude performance

414 mph ? That's average at best.

[QUOTE]

P-38L's could fly at ~440MPH at 25,000 feet. Whats a FW-190's speed at that alt? Or a 109G6? Sure, not that much differance, but then lets take a look at the Pacific. The P-38 enjoyed 50-100MPH over Zero's.

OW ya. I forgot. The P-38 was braking 400MPH in 1938. How fast was the 109 back in 1938?

[QUOTE]
Speed

Below standards in ETO.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What was the standard of the ETO? 109G6 was the most numerous 109 model so dont bother giving me numbers from the K-4 or G-14. Your the one that said "standard". So lets take a P-38J doing 414MPH in 1943 and see how it stacks up to the "standard" Luftwaffe fighter at 25K. You have more Luftwaffe referances then me so you take a crack at it. Or we can see the P-38L at 440MPH in 1944? Your pick, but they both stack up well to the "standard" Luftwaffe fighter of the day.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Stability

Too stable, even sluggish, I'd say.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dont confuse IL2's version of the P-38 to the real life thing. Also sluggish has nothing to do with stability. Read some pilots thoughts of the P-38 and thats one thing they all seam to mention is the stability as a gun platform. Thats critical in a combat situation.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

Now, bad characteristics:

Big target, especially for planform shots.

Distinctive shape visible and recognizable from far away - allows the enemy better SA.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

All this is true.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

Compressibility at high speeds - poor diver, poor BnZer, poor escaper. Split S used to be Luftwaffe's most effective escape from P-38.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Compressibility on the P-38 was a problem. One that was solved with the air brakes. Once pilots got the J and L with air brakes, they fallowed what was left of the Luftwaffe in the Split-S.

Question for you. If the P-38 was such a poor aircraft, why did the Luftwaffe always Split-S to get away from it? Its not like the Split-S'ed and carried on the fight. They Split-S'ed and ran away! Interesting....

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

Poor search view because of engines and twin tail.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but amazing forward visability. Something the FW-190 needs http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">


Huge roll inertia - no roll agility.

Low roll rate until boosted ailerons were introduced - other aircraft flew without such measuers as boosted ailerons and dive brakes. This speaks quite well of the plane itself. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

With the ailerons (A technical innovation thats used in fighters today) the P-38 out-rolled a FW-190 at speeds. Not bad for a big aircraft? Its funny that your using a technical innovation as a drawback. I guess every jet fighter made today is inferior to WWII aircraft? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

As for the P-38J without boost, lets see how it compairs. Remember, we are compairing single engine fighters with a twin engine.

http://www.gibbageart.com/files/RollChartClr2.jpg

Even without the boost, it still came in on average in a list of SINGLE ENGINE AIRCRAFT! For a twin engine aircraft, THATS FRIGGEN OUTSTANDING! Lets see how well a Bf-110 rolls? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Its rather hard to compair a twin engine fighter with a single engine fighter, but amazingly the P-38 compairs rather well. Lets see how the Bf-110 or Me-410 does? They have rear gunners for a reason. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Or, I also forgot to mention Accelleration and climb on my list of plusses. Those things are critical on air combat, and the P-38 did both better then the P-51 and P-47. With that, its long range concentrated firepower, and ability to ride a stall longer, a 109 or 190 was dead if it tried to pull up and away from a P-38.

So with all this, I bet your going to dismiss it all, demand proof of something stupid, quote another pilot. But your only trolling and doinga very bad job at it. Go make a FW-190 thread and have fun.

AerialTarget
06-01-2005, 11:56 PM
You said it better than I did, Gibbage! I see that you are having as much difficulty as I did quoting all of his quoted quotes. What a troll!

By the way, I think you should put bold tags around the part where you explain that the graph is for the version without aileron boost. It's going to be deliberately ignored, I fear.

Hristos
06-02-2005, 12:00 AM
You're getting your emotions get best of you.

P-38 was too large, too expensive piece of machinery which needed additional improvements to make it competitive.

It was probably the most expensive fighter (was it a fighter really) plane US airforces flew in WW2. It wasn't enough, the plane needed even more improving.

The statement that it was better because enemy used Split S to get away from it is idiotic. Every plane can be bounced, surprised or caught at disadvantage. Luftwaffe planes were not an exception. But if they were caught by P-38, they simply dove away.

P-38 got brakes ?! Just great, can you catch anything with brakes on ? Try speeding in your car with handbrake on - might give you some insight.

Boosted ailerons are technical inovation, but in case of P-38 they were an emergency measure. Without that the plane was hopeless. Other planes flew at 400+ mph without the need for boosted ailerons. But not the P-38 - it needed them to fly at speeds of 1940 era airplanes. That's pathetic. Today's jets need them to fly at speeds 2-5 times higher.

Now that I think of it - it turns too well for a 50+ lbs/sq ft wingloading. How that ?